I blew it...

[Wiffey]

Between here and OBOB, I've had a number of discussions over thae last couple of days re: Orthodox-Catholic relations that have been mentally, emotionally and spiritually exhausting.

In rereading some of my posts, I can see where my patience and temper have worn thin in places and I have not been as charitable or cogent as I would have liked.

I have edited some of the posts to root out little flashes of Cuban hotheadedness.

Please forgive me if I have spoken out of turn, railed and tilted at windmills like some 21st century Don Quixote.

If I have offended, I am truly sorry and hope you will forgive me.

[Orthosdoxa]

Sweet Wiffey, I haven't read them all, but I just wanted you to know that I would forgive you, if there were anything to forgive, which I'm sure there's not.

Go tell your hubby to give you a nice backrub and help you relax. You're too stressed. Matter of fact, I think I'm gonna go tell my OWN hubby that I need a nice backrub... ;)

[countrymousenc]

Dear Wiffey... :hug: unless you lost your temper, and I can't recall that you did, there's not a problem. Please don't worry!

[NewToLife]

I will admit that some of your posts have annoyed me over the last few days, for instance I personally thought that it was inappropriate to go to a forum of a church which lies outside of Orthodoxy and openly complain that Orthodox have behaved in a way that you judge to be unloving. If you have such complaints then I would suggest that this forum is the place to air them and not elsewhere, this would allow those who see things differently from yourself the freedom to discuss the issue with you.

I am well aware that you have not sought to cause any conflict or unhappiness and I know we all make errors of judgement. For my part I apologise if anything in this post causes you pain, that is not my intention. You have my forgiveness for what it is worth.

[Iacobus]

Between here and OBOB, I've had a number of discussions over thae last couple of days re: Orthodox-Catholic relations that have been mentally, emotionally and spiritually exhausting.

In rereading some of my posts, I can see where my patience and temper have worn thin in places and I have not been as charitable or cogent as I would have liked.

I have edited some of the posts to root out little flashes of Cuban hotheadedness.

Please forgive me if I have spoken out of turn, railed and tilted at windmills like some 21st century Don Quixote.

If I have offended, I am truly sorry and hope you will forgive me.

.....

[Matrona]

Wiffey, I know you meant well. I don't hold a grudge. But, you should know that a few of the members of OBOB are really obsessed with proving that the RCC is the true church by demonstrating that it is the most persecuted. Your accusing your fellow Christians of bigotry fed right into this delusion.

As for me, I'm tired of being accused of being anti-Catholic by other people here at CF. It's not true, and it really hurts to be called that.

[Rilian]

I know your heart is in the right place Wiffey, and that you probably have more love in your pinkie than I have in my entire body. However....

I have to echo the sentiments of NTL and Iacobus (what I think he wrote anyway). I've seen here and other places, that when Orthodox people stand up for what they believe they get labelled as argumentative, obstinate, unloving and so on. Unfortunately we do (and I include myself at the front of the list) often make uncharitable remarks in defense of Orthodoxy.

Just today, I've seen two threads saying the whole schism was nothing but politics, so of course all we have to do is get over our hurt feelings and the East and West will reunite. The fact is there is a great theological wall that has been constructed that divides us, and they don't seem to want to deal with the fact that Rome is going to have to back out a lot of what it has put in place for reunion to ever have a hope of happening. I think that is the sobering reality that keeps a lot of Orthodox people from rushing to embrace a sentiment of unity that has very little hope of being realized.

[Iacobus]

I took down what I wrote, but Matrona and Rillian have hit on the same theme. I know a lot of Roman Catholics in my day to day life, and I have never heard any of them complaining about being persecuted or hated. But that is an ongoing theme in OBOB. I don't know why, but there is almost always a thread going on over there about how every one hates Catholics.

I think your heart is in the right place, but I also think you are feeding that complex. Yes, TAW members are sometimes uncharitable, but the same may most certainly be said for OBOB members -- after all, we are but human, and that is the way we all are. The issues between us, however, are more complex than mere politics; there are real and substantive theological differences. The implication that you have, unintentionally I think, made that the EOs are unloving and unforgiving is not helpful in making people understand that.

I would also add that the most virulent anti-RCs I have ever run across were former RCs who left that church. For those of us that have never darkened the door, I don't think there is anything at all personal.

Wiffy, keep your good heart. You haven't done anything wrong. I just think the bigger picture suggests that there are other factors at play.

I left CF for several months in order to concentrate on my blog. It's things like this that make me remember why that made me happy.

[InnerPhyre]

I took down what I wrote, but Matrona and Rillian have hit on the same theme. I know a lot of Roman Catholics in my day to day life, and I have never heard any of them complaining about being persecuted or hated. But that is an ongoing theme in OBOB. I don't know why, but there is almost always a thread going on over there about how every one hates Catholics..


I think this is actually more a product of CF. I know most people I meet on the street have no problem with Catholics whatsoever. Just the other day I went to a Baptist prayer service on campus and the people were extremely kind and welcoming to me even after they saw me make the sign of the cross before we prayed ;)

When we see the goings on in General Heresy though, it's hard not to feel persecuted. I don't think it's so Anti-Catholic as it is Anti-Apostolic. I know many of you have felt this way too in the past couple days when the Chickites get going and calling you vampires and me a pagan.

I also think that we get more trolls in OBOB coming in just to wipe their feet on our carpet. Since protestantism started out protesting Catholicism, not Orthodoxy, that's not entirely surprising. Many feel threatened by us. I agree that sometimes some of us get into a "woe is me" frame of mind, and we need to be careful about that. Peace be with you.

Mike

[Oblio]

When we see the goings on in General Heresy though, it's hard not to feel persecuted. I don't think it's so Anti-Catholic as it is Anti-Apostolic. I know many of you have felt this way too in the past couple days when the Chickites get going and calling you vampires and me a pagan.


I agree wholeheartedly. There are a handful that make it their mission to attack Apostolic Christianity. While we occasionally guilty of similar action, I believe that it is not only much rarer, but nearly always done as a defensive reaction.

[nyj]

I think this is actually more a product of CF.

Actually, it has a lot to do with Catholicism in America, when the first Irish and Italian immigrants walked off the boats to cries of Papist!

Are things a whole lot better now? Yes, sure... but this is not some sort of fantasy contrived by Catholics just to claim we're the True Church because we're the most persecuted. That's just silly, and I certainly wouldn't call that an excuse if the people of TAW discussed some of the anti-Orthodox websites that exist out there in the WWW.

When your grandfather tells you to hide your crucifix, because he grew up in a day and age when having that be seen around your neck could literally cost you your job, you know that anti-Catholicism does exist, and it has left it's mark on the people you love.

[Oblio]

When your grandfather tells you to hide your crucifix, because he grew up in a day and age when having that be seen around your neck could literally cost you your job, you know that anti-Catholicism does exist, and it has left it's mark on the people you love.


Just a related side note. I have heard that in the Russian tradition we wear our crosses under our clothes to commemorate and honor the persecution that our brethren before us endured.

[Iacobus]

I agree wholeheartedly. There are a handful that make it their mission to attack Apostolic Christianity. While we occasionally guilty of similar action, I believe that it is not only much rarer, but nearly always done as a defensive reaction.

It is partly true, Oblio, that a lot of it comes out of the GH forum. Yet there is a whole lot of complaining about the Orthodox too. See, for example, the ongoing current thread in OBOB where there is much complaining about the EOs. The root of the complaining about EOs seems to be a frustrated reaction to the realization that the Orthodox are not really inclined just to come under Rome.

[nyj]

Just a related side note. I have heard that in the Russian tradition we wear our crosses under our clothes to commemorate and honor the persecution that our brethren before us endured.

As do I, wear it under my clothes that is. I don't wear my crucifix to "make a statement". He happened to see it in the fold of my button-down shirt.

[Matrona]

Actually, it has a lot to do with Catholicism in America, when the first Irish and Italian immigrants walked off the boats to cries of Papist!

Are things a whole lot better now? Yes, sure... but this is not some sort of fantasy contrived by Catholics just to claim we're the True Church because we're the most persecuted. That's just silly, and I certainly wouldn't call that an excuse if the people of TAW discussed some of the anti-Orthodox websites that exist out there in the WWW.

I don't know about you, but I think that priest who was imprisoned for 25 years in Romania for teaching Sunday school has a pretty good idea of what persecution is.

[NewToLife]

I just wanted to post again in case my previous post reads too harshly I feel that I ought to mention that, although I sometimes disagree with Wiffey she is also a poster who I admire and respect.

[nyj]

I don't know about you, but I think that priest who was imprisoned for 25 years in Romania for teaching Sunday school has a pretty good idea of what persecution is.

Me? I personally don't know the meaning of the word persecuted, and I thank God for that.

[Oblio]

I personally don't know the meaning of the word persecuted, and I thank God for that.


/me sticks tongue in cheek

Well, there were the persecutions endured by many of us at TMBTSNBN ...

[nyj]

* Oblio sticks tongue in cheek


Well, there were the persecutions endured by many of us at TMBTSNBN ...

True. :P

[Rilian]

I know a lot of Roman Catholics in my day to day life, and I have never heard any of them complaining about being persecuted or hated.

Yes, same for me. I grew up around Catholics, part of my family (same for my wife) is Catholic, I went to a Catholic college and came within an inch of converting. Almost all of our religious friends, outside of church, are Catholic. The persecution thing is something I've never run across.

[countrymousenc]

I met a Catholic woman who was home-schooling her children, and felt very much ostracized by the home-schooling community here. Some of them had told her she was going to h*ll for being Catholic. :sigh:

[InnerPhyre]

I don't know about you, but I think that priest who was imprisoned for 25 years in Romania for teaching Sunday school has a pretty good idea of what persecution is.


As do Catholics who were lynched by the KKK. I think the whole "I'm more persecuted than you" argument is folly, personally. It can quickly lead to pride.

[Rilian]

I met a Catholic woman who was home-schooling her children, and felt very much ostracized by the home-schooling community here. Some of them had told her she was going to h*ll for being Catholic. :sigh:

That's sick. I've never been able to understand the Fundagelical ability to say "Jesus loves you, but you're going to Hell." While smiling at the same time.

[Wiffey]

FWIW, I certainly don't think that anti-Vatican sentiment even amongst the most hard-line Orthodox can hold a candle to the anti-Catholicism that exists among some Protestant groups.

And I regret choosing my words poorly. "Anti-Catholicism", which implies hostility to Catholics in general, does not describe the sentiments of most Orthodox. Though I do see a strong feeling of suspicion WRT the Vatican and the Catholic hierarchy among some Orthodox, usually rooted in our difficult history.

I felt that by acknowledging that, it might help to heal some of the feelings that get hurt when we deny another's experience.

That was probably not the best thing to do, since it upset so many people.

[Veritas]

Wiffey, you have nothing to apologize for. You're one of the nicest kindred spirits over in OBOB and I genuinely welcome your presence. I understand if you're feeling that God has placed a conviction on your heart to repent, but I've seen nothing wrong.


Bless you!:hug:

[Eusebios]

Wiffey,
I haven't read the posts you're talking about I guess, all of us are at times guilty of being uncharitable, I certainly know that I have been, and likely will be again.
You have quickly become a highly respected member of CF and TAW, we are fortunate to have you here with us. Pleas don't be too discouraged.
On another note, I have run into the anti-RC attitude expressed, and within my own family too. My mom and dad (Lord have mercy on their souls0 werre generally wonderful people,l, but I distinctly remember a bad scene in between them and my older brother , when in his sophomore year at college he disclosed the fact that he was datin a ACatholic girl. The folks basically threatened to disown him, and I didn't see or hear from him again for 11 years. My moms sister also faced a huge ammount of criticism when she married her second husband, who is a Pole and an extremely devout Catholic.When she converted herself it was tenuous as well.
Clearly, out here in cyberspace, there is a general tendency to lump all Apostolic believers together as either pagans or idol worshipers.:doh: :sigh:
In Xp,
Eusebios.

[Rising_Suns]

That was probably not the best thing to do, since it upset so many people.

Wiffey,
Sometimes the best thing to do doesn't always please everyone.

In any case, I just want to echo Veritas' sentiments. Your posts are always sincere and edifying, and your humility tempers any pride that would result from such compliments.

You are a blessing.

-Davide

[OrthodoxyUSA]

No saint was ever perfect ( O.K. Mary perhaps) just forgiven.

If we fall down.... get up.....

We love you.....


Forgive me...