The Direction of the Church... or "We are the Body, Now let's behave like it!"

[GivingMyAll4Him]

The Direction of the Church... or "We are the Body, Now let's behave like it!"



Before I start, I just want to say one thing: If the church isn’t growing, the body is doing something wrong.



Ok, here it goes. One of the things that I have noticed recently is a new trend in Churches that is not only growing but SCARY! Churches all over the world are so eager for numbers that they are sacrificing their beliefs!



TRENDS:




Altering what you believe to become more welcoming. This might mean allowing homosexual voting members, supporting abortions, etc. This is done to expand the church and welcome sinners. Well the church SHOULD grow and the church SHOULD welcome sinners (we're all sinners, right?), however NOT at the cost of your beliefs! Homosexuality is condemned in the Bible (I'll be stoned for saying that) and it is wrong for a church to allow someone who is INTENTIONALLY living a sinful life to be a decision making member of the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 5:6 says “Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?”



Preaching only the good things in the Bible. Everybody loves Jesus, everybody loves Heaven, everybody loves God. So let’s just talk about that, right? Everyone will leave church with a feeling that they’re floating! Everybody wants to go to a feel-good church! The church isn’t teaching that God is the SAME god that will PUNISH us for our sins if we don’t repent! And if we do not teach that there is punishment for sin, then we can all sin without consequence… and why did Jesus even bother to put himself through the pain of the cross? There MUST be consequences for our actions and people MUST know them. Remember that the Church is not ours but belongs to Jesus. (In Matthew 16 Jesus tells Peter “upon this rock I will build MY church.”



Hiding the opinions of the church from the public. The idea is that if the church does not act against what is wrong (possibly going back to the issue of Homosexuality) then everyone will feel welcome. NEWSFLASH: If the church doesn’t stand up against what is wrong, then they support it. It’s that simple.


One very common misconception is that the church should function as a business. The church is NOT a business. The church should not grow as a business! The church should grow because more people are accepting Christ!



Another thing that scares me is that the Members of a church… the Board… do not seem to be praying as much anymore. We MUST be in tune with Christ if we are going to function. The church is the body of Christ, but NOT the mind! Christ is the mind! And if the body does not look to the mind for direction then the entire body is ineffective. It really bothers me when church members shout at each other. They would not be shouting if Jesus was standing there leading the meeting! But the fact is, Jesus SHOULD be there leading the meeting!



“For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.” 1 Corinthians 14:33

“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 18:18



So how does a Church grow but keep it’s intimacy with God? Well the first and most important thing to do is ask Him! “God, how can we bring souls with us to heaven? How can we best honor you?” Definitely not “How can we find more people to tithe?” or “we want a bigger building but need an excuse.” (BEWARE of hidden reasons! Remember that you can also pray that God will purify your motives). Other than that, do what people are afraid to do. Invite people personally. Witness. Do what we are here to do, go spread the word with your own mouth.



I’ll be truthful about another thing too. While I caution changes within a Church, it is the churches responsibility to stay current with the times.



I’m not going to hide it… I’m a 19 year old kid, I have very little experience compared to many people in the church, but I believe that God has blessed me with insight and given me something that I need to say LOUDLY. I hope everyone was listening ;).

**Note**
This is NOT an attack on ANY specific church or denomination. I grew up in the Nazarene church and absolutely love it!

I was unsure where to put this. If you feel that it would be appropriate in another category please link to it! Thanks a lot, -Giving-

[Plan 9]

erm...Giving? Supposing, for the sake of discussion, that what you say is true, what makes you feel that churches are sacrificing their beliefs to gain numbers? Could there be other reasons?
I ask because I've changed a belief or two over the years, but never to win wider acceptance; usually the reverse has resulted.
erm...just askin'. :blush:

[sinner/SAVED]

If the church stopped allowing sinners in then we would have to lock all the doors to all the churches and they would sit there and gather dust.

[GivingMyAll4Him]

First, I absolutely DO NOT want to stop allowing sinners in. We're ALL sinners! If there were no sinners in church there would be no church. I'm afraid that you misunderstood the point I am trying to make. In order for a close walk with Christ, sinners must repent and try not to sin again. THOSE are the people who we need in positions of leadership in the church, not people who are intentionally living a sinful life with no plans to change.

And Plan 9, I've changed beliefs as well. However I believe there is a difference. I did not change the way I believed to gain acceptance, but because of a strong conviction I felt that the way I was believing was incorrect (and through much prayer and study).

As for the church... there are some churches running commercials now that say, more or less, "if you're living a sinful lifestyle, come here and you wont here us tell you that your lifestyle is wrong in God's eyes." Or another instance is when a church refuses to take a stand on issues such as, again, homosexuality, abortion, etc. They are choosing to ignore issues instead of stand on conviction, and thus sacrificing their beliefs for acceptance and numbers.

Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, said in an interview that he refused to preach about such issues. His reasoning was because he wanted everyone to feel welcome. In my eyes, everyone should feel welcome, but not because the sinful things in their life are accepted! It's still sin. To do this is to put the opinions of people BEFORE the word and nature of God (and opinion, but "God's opinion" seems like such a weak statement, His "opinion" is solid and unchanging).

Truthfully, this is a trend more commonly seen in non-denominational churches (I am really trying not to make this a personal attack, there are some outstanding non-denominational churches!). Non-denominational also occasionally takes on the meaning "be as careful as possible not to offend those with different (often incorrect) beliefs."

I hope that helps... keep posting and I'll keep replying! Again, I appologize if I have offended anyone, that is not my purpose.

[Plan 9]

And Plan 9, I've changed beliefs as well. However I believe there is a difference. I did not change the way I believed to gain acceptance, but because of a strong conviction I felt that the way I was believing was incorrect (and through much prayer and study)...

Yes, I guess my thought was that if we change our beliefs for the best of reasons, others, with whom we may not always agree, may also do so for the same reasons.

As for the church... there are some churches running commercials now that say, more or less, "if you're living a sinful lifestyle, come here and you wont here us tell you that your lifestyle is wrong in God's eyes."

I musta missed those? I'm glad I did. :eek:

Or another instance is when a church refuses to take a stand on issues such as, again, homosexuality, abortion, etc. They are choosing to ignore issues instead of stand on conviction, and thus sacrificing their beliefs for acceptance and numbers.

Why would doing that necessarily increase numbers, Giving?

Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life, said in an interview that he refused to preach about such issues. His reasoning was because he wanted everyone to feel welcome. In my eyes, everyone should feel welcome, but not because the sinful things in their life are accepted! It's still sin. To do this is to put the opinions of people BEFORE the word and nature of God (and opinion, but "God's opinion" seems like such a weak statement, His "opinion" is solid and unchanging).

I confess I haven't read The Purpose Driven Life, but my understanding is that there is some controversy over it. There was a thread on it here, which I followed for some time, but it must have died out while I was trapped offline. :sigh:

Truthfully, this is a trend more commonly seen in non-denominational churches (I am really trying not to make this a personal attack, there are some outstanding non-denominational churches!). Non-denominational also occasionally takes on the meaning "be as careful as possible not to offend those with different (often incorrect) beliefs."

hmm...I wonder what the members of the non-deniminational forum here would have to say? The only non-denominational churches I've attended have been quite conservative, but this isn't recent, by any means. Some people occasionally accuse Robt. Schuller's church of being founded on inoffensiveness?

I hope that helps... keep posting and I'll keep replying! Again, I appologize if I have offended anyone, that is not my purpose.

I didn't think for a moment that your purpose was to offend!
:)

[sinner/SAVED]

It all depends on what you expect the church to be:
Is it a courtroom for judging people?(Who would want to go there, except for the judges)
Is it a clubhouse for saints?(That would be one veeeery exclusive club)
Is it a hospital for sinners?(This is where I feel I belong)

[GivingMyAll4Him]

Plan 9, a lot of what you said is hard to respond to, and you bring up some excellent points. I do want to explain one thing though: You asked how refusing to take a stand on controversial issues can increase the numbers in a church-- here is my answer.

I think that not taking a stand is done in order to bring in numbers. The reason I say this is because if the church does not take a stand against those issues then they feel that they're less likely to offend people who live on the side of those issues that is most often considered sinful. If those people are not offended then they're more likely to come... if they come the church grows... That, at least, is my reasoning.

sinner/SAVED, remember that the church is not ours and should not follow our expectations, but belongs to Christ and should follow only his expectations. Different Christians perceive the church in different ways, and it is likely that nobody has a full conception of what the church is and should be. I'm not trying to draw a line and make people choose sides about what I have written, but simply trying to get people to think about the direction the church is going.

Keep 'em coming! This is fun! Also, does anyone have any other points that go along or differ from what I have said? I find this very interesting :D

[sinner/SAVED]

Yes, and all Christ asked of sinners was repentance. He never rejected anyone because of their sin. He was much harsher on legalists and established religion than He was on sinners. He called the sinners and rejects of society to Him. No one was or should be excluded. Like I said earlier, when you close the doors to sinners, church is going to be a very lonely place. The greatest sin of all is pride, and when we become so prideful in our religion that we exclude others, then I think we will probably reap what we sow.

[Plan 9]

Plan 9, a lot of what you said is hard to respond to, and you bring up some excellent points. I do want to explain one thing though: You asked how refusing to take a stand on controversial issues can increase the numbers in a church-- here is my answer.

I think that not taking a stand is done in order to bring in numbers. The reason I say this is because if the church does not take a stand against those issues then they feel that they're less likely to offend people who live on the side of those issues that is most often considered sinful. If those people are not offended then they're more likely to come... if they come the church grows... That, at least, is my reasoning.

You could be right, although it's not working for our Unitarian church here; they're the same size (small) that they were when I was a teenager, as is my conservative UM church. Neither congregation seems interested in numbers persee, and each has quite a large percentage of sincere, dedicated members, whose church home is quite important to them. What I don't have is any stats on church growth, overall. :sigh:
What I do know is that the last great American revival, the Jesus Movement, occured because churches all over the country were willing to welcome us freaky looking yougin's; not just grudgingly let us enter, and then pull their skirts away from us, for fear of contamination, and I think that my be Sinner/SAVED's point. The pastor of the church in which I was saved used to say that the church is a hospital. He certainly took a stand, but he didn't pound away at how sinful this or that was; he talked a great deal more about what God's mercy, love, and forgiveness, about the new life we could have, and what we and God could achieve together. In doing so, he left room for God to speak to us.

I had the horrifying experience (I was very, very shy) of returning home right after this, going to a church, and having the preacher preach his entire sermon on how hippies had reprobate minds, and couldn't be saved, and, as he did so, he kept his eyes fixed on me the entire time. He sure did take a stand, but I can't tell you how thankful I am that I'd been to the other man's church first.

This is not to say that I think this is what you mean by "taking a stand"; all I'm trying to say is that people who have experienced little but condemnation from every Tom, Dick, and Harriet around;when total stangers feel free to express such opinions on the street, such as "Dirty hippie! Take a bath!" Hey, you! Don'tcha know Hallowe'en ain't for months yet?! I know what you hippie girls want!), you feel sinful just for breathing. You hear that message from the world, as well as Christians when you're part of an outgroup; church just has to have something positive to offer us: salvation. It's not watering the gospel to speak to society's hated people as though they have real value. God Himself has never once been mean to me when speaking to me of my sins, but people have always borne down too hard, so that I thought my parents were crazy for feeling unconditional love for me, and I knew that God hated me just as much as I hated myself.
Well, enough about me, huh? :doh:

sinner/SAVED, remember that the church is not ours and should not follow our expectations, but belongs to Christ and should follow only his expectations. Different Christians perceive the church in different ways, and it is likely that nobody has a full conception of what the church is and should be. I'm not trying to draw a line and make people choose sides about what I have written, but simply trying to get people to think about the direction the church is going.

I can't speak for s/S, but this is where I draw the ideal line: that everyone leave a church service knowing that God loves them, no matter who they are, or what they've done. You see, I thought I had to be a good person before I could be saved, and I knew that was impossible. If you'd traveled back in your time machine to talk to me, and we'd been in total disagreement about what my actual sins were, we would have been in total agreement on my sin level, so to speak. Hey, I was sure I couldn't chew gum right.

Keep 'em coming! This is fun! Also, does anyone have any other points that go along or differ from what I have said? I find this very interesting :D

I'm having fun, too. :)

[sinner/SAVED]

The commission of the church is not to tell the hippies how dirty they are or to tell the homosexuals they're going to hell. The commission of the church is to make disciples. We should realize that those future disciples may look or act different from us now. You cannot hate someone into being a disciple or frighten them into being a disciple. It can only be done by love.

In Christ,
s/S

[GivingMyAll4Him]

sinner/saved, you are not listening to what I am saying.

YES, SINNERS SHOULD BE WELCOME IN CHURCH! YES! PLEASE! If they werent i sure wouldnt be there! And yes, bring in EVERYONE, bring in those who support abortion, bring in the homosexuals, bring in EVERYONE, PLEASE! BUT, if you make the decision to support abortion or homosexuality or whatever sin you want to support, you should not be a VOTING MEMBER of the church. I am not saying close the doors, just do not allow those who support sin to vote in the church.

God loves homosexuals. God loves all sinners. Those who do not repent and do not attempt to live their life according to God, even if it means significant change, WILL go to hell. God would not be just if they did not (and my God is a just God!).

But we still want them in church ;).

[GivingMyAll4Him]

Plan 9--

i dont have a lot of time, i'm leaving on a trip for tonight, but i wanted to comment on one thing--

--i believe that when we leave a church service we should know that God loves us too, but we also must realize that He will punish us if we choose not to accept Christ, repent of our sins, and live by His rules. As I said to s/s, God loves EVERYONE, from the worst of the sinners to the best of His followers (who at times may also be the worst of the sinners ;)).

[Plan 9]

Plan 9--

i dont have a lot of time, i'm leaving on a trip for tonight, but i wanted to comment on one thing--

--i believe that when we leave a church service we should know that God loves us too, but we also must realize that He will punish us if we choose not to accept Christ, repent of our sins, and live by His rules. As I said to s/s, God loves EVERYONE, from the worst of the sinners to the best of His followers (who at times may also be the worst of the sinners ;)).

After all these years, I'm only a relative success at living by His rules, insofar as I understand them. :eek: By any other measure, I'm a failure as a Christian; yet I still am one. If you're referring to the "wood, hay, stubble" passage, I'll rush up to help Him light that bonfire! If human righteousness is as dirty rags, what difference does it make to me how high a pile I accumulate?

As for what I heard before being saved of what you just wrote (and I heard it lots), it was blah, blah, blah, blah, woof, woof, woof LIVE BY HIS RULES, and a God whose rules I could live by couldn't be much of a God.

I believe in a just God who decided to be merciful, sending his Son to bear our sins for no good reason except that He loves us. I believe in a God who put justice aside to offer mercy.
I didn't become a Christian through fear of hell; it didn't even enter my mind. I just wanted to be a better person, and I still do. It's been a long journey already, and I probably have 30 plus years to go. It's a process. I have faith that I won't enter heaven as I am now, and I leave it to Him to make that happen somehow. :)

A church that has special standards for deciding which members are good enough to vote probably wouldn't want me, and I would be a hypocrite to join it. All UMC members take part in voting; not just the ones who are most right, or who most deserve to.

Enjoy your Trip, Giving! :wave: :)

[billychum]

GivingMyAll, I'm in agreement with you. I think that we as Methodist are to afraid to talk about sin anymore.
Billy <><

[Plan 9]

GivingMyAll, I'm in agreement with you. I think that we as Methodist are to afraid to talk about sin anymore.
Billy <><


Hi, Billy! :wave: Welcome to CF and Wesley's Parish! :)

No one in my UM church was afraid to talk about sin; it's just that we talked (and sang) about more than that there.
In order to make up for what we feel are the defects in emphasis of other peoples' churches, are we to skew ours in the opposite direction? If so, How would that help?

[billychum]

No one in my UM church was afraid to talk about sin; it's just that we talked (and sang) about more than that there.
In order to make up for what we feel are the defects in emphasis of other peoples' churches, are we to skew ours in the opposite direction? If so, How would that help?

As long as your direction is God's direction everything will be great. But on the other hand to much desert and not enough meat can make for a bad diet. And if sin (outright disobediance) in the church has risen to the level of leadership, more direction and less tickeling of the ears (to keep the numbers up) IMO is what God would call for. Pray for our churchs
Billy <><

[Plan 9]

As long as your direction is God's direction everything will be great. But on the other hand to much desert and not enough meat can make for a bad diet. And if sin (outright disobediance) in the church has risen to the level of leadership, more direction and less tickeling of the ears (to keep the numbers up) IMO is what God would call for. Pray for our churchs
Billy <><

Well, Billy, I'm glad you're here to join in, because this is an interesting discussion, and what you have to say can only make it more so! :)

If I may ask, what do you consider "meat", and what do you consider "desert" in a church service?
Also, when you speak of "leadership", who do you mean; my church's D.S., the Bishop? Individual UM congregations are run by the congregants themselves, and both pastors and lay members are sent to vote at conferences, so I'm not certain what you mean. It seems to me that, ideally, leadership is the responsibility of all United Methodists.

I agree that we should pray for our churches, of course! :thumbsup:

[sinner/SAVED]

All members of the UMC have an equal role in the leadership of the church. GivingMyAll suggests that sinners not be allowed leadership roles. I want to know where he plans to find someone who is not a sinner. Everyone supports some sin or another just by their actions. Who's going to choose which sins we exclude and which we accept for our leaders.

[billychum]

You are right plan9 this is good conversation. And sinner/saved I agree with you, we are all sinners. But I think that we need to repent of our sins, especially those in leadership roles. If I choose to live in sexual sin, beat my children, cheat on my wife, cuss, get drunk etc. and not repent then I should not be in any leadership role in my church. Now weather or not, I'm the one that decides that I should step down, my pastor or my brothers and sisters in Christ tell me, it's a deed that needs to be done. I have had a staff parish member tell me in private that they indulge in pornography and IMO I believe child porn was a part of it. This person also had numerous complaints from parents about sexual comments made toward their teenage children, along with the cursing that seemed to be an ongoing deal with this guy. But he had been in our church his whole life. He's gone now, but what kind of damage do you thing was left in his wake because of his refusal to repent of his sin? Don't get me wrong, I know that as long as the church is made up of sinful people then the church will always have issues. But where do we draw the line?
Billy <><

[Plan 9]

You are right plan9 this is good conversation.

You bet, Billy! :)

And sinner/saved I agree with you, we are all sinners. But I think that we need to repent of our sins, especially those in leadership roles. If I choose to live in sexual sin, beat my children, cheat on my wife, cuss, get drunk etc. and not repent then I should not be in any leadership role in my church. Now weather or not, I'm the one that decides that I should step down, my pastor or my brothers and sisters in Christ tell me, it's a deed that needs to be done. I have had a staff parish member tell me in private that they indulge in pornography and IMO I believe child porn was a part of it. This person also had numerous complaints from parents about sexual comments made toward their teenage children, along with the cursing that seemed to be an ongoing deal with this guy. But he had been in our church his whole life. He's gone now, but what kind of damage do you thing was left in his wake because of his refusal to repent of his sin? Don't get me wrong, I know that as long as the church is made up of sinful people then the church will always have issues. But where do we draw the line?
Billy <><

What S/s says about the whole UM membership being leaders is true. It's sometimes true, I have noted, that some UM members expect their pastors to live holier lives than they themselves do, but the fact is that our pastors are no more leaders than the rest of us, so within the UMC, this can inadvertantly come to smack of hypocrisy.
For example, the members of the Pastor-Parish Relations Commitee hire and fire the church's pastor, making them far more powerful than he or she. So, what right do they have (or anyone an any other commitee) to hold their pastor to a higher standard than they do themselves? Certainly, I don't feel I have that right, because, whereas pastors may come and go (and with some frequency), we, the members of our congregation, are the ones who are most likely to belong to the same church to the bulk of our lifetimes.
At my church, the most visible and vital members in terms of our continued survival and good spiritual health are those of our professional choir; yet, as a visitor, one might be completely unaware of that. Our choir does much of our preaching (in song, though it may be), which was why I asked earlier what you consider "meat" and "desert"? Our choir provides both, mingled together. :)

[herev]

who decides what is or isn't a sin?

Homosexuality, the vote seems to be in
how about women wearing gold jewelry?
how about those that consume alcohol?
How about those that don't tithe?
How about those that don't sell all they have to follow Jesus or to live in a commune as Acts suggests?
How about smoking?
How about those choose NOT to participate in prison ministry? (the least of these?)
How about telling a dirty joke?
How about telling a very slightly off color joke?--you know the ones that people wink at
How about working on the Sabbath?
How about going to the Beach or the mountains instead of going to church one Sunday?
How about speeding?
How about littering?
How about running through that red light (swearing it was only pink;))
How about "forgetting" to put that cash payment you got on your 1040?
All of these things are sins in someone's eyes, so who gets to decide? YOU? Perhaps we should take a vote (of course it would need to be a secret ballot)
Who will be the police to enforce these rules?
Is there an appeals process?
We cannot single out one sin and say that this sin is not allowed. You said in an earlier post that you BELIEVE that the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin, but you do understand, don't you that not everyone who has studied Biblical history agrees with you? (I agree, but others don't), so again, how do we choose which sins are on the list that keeps you from being an active participant?
sinner/saved, you are not listening to what I am saying.

YES, SINNERS SHOULD BE WELCOME IN CHURCH! YES! PLEASE! If they werent i sure wouldnt be there! And yes, bring in EVERYONE, bring in those who support abortion, bring in the homosexuals, bring in EVERYONE, PLEASE! BUT, if you make the decision to support abortion or homosexuality or whatever sin you want to support, you should not be a VOTING MEMBER of the church. I am not saying close the doors, just do not allow those who support sin to vote in the church.

God loves homosexuals. God loves all sinners. Those who do not repent and do not attempt to live their life according to God, even if it means significant change, WILL go to hell. God would not be just if they did not (and my God is a just God!).

But we still want them in church ;).

[ClementofRome]

who decides what is or isn't a sin?
Who will be the police to enforce these rules?
Is there an appeals process?
We cannot single out one sin and say that this sin is not allowed. You said in an earlier post that you BELIEVE that the Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin, but you do understand, don't you that not everyone who has show do we choose which sins are on the list that keeps you from being an active participant?

:clap:

[GivingMyAll4Him]

herev--
you are correct, i have made the mistake of singling out one sin, and i appologize. and i would agree that it is not up to us to determine what is sinful and what is not, it is entirely up to God. However, I do believe that the bible is very clear about God's view of the specific sin in question. (and the next question will be "is murder in war a sin," when the bible speaks against murder... i dont know, i hate it when i can argue myself :confused: ). But that is beside the point, I used homosexuality as an example of sin when i probably should not have given a specif example but remained more general. I am talking about sin that the sinner refuses to give up, even if it means a closer walk with God.

sinner/saved--
you are absolutely not reading my posts before you comment, and it is getting to the place where you are accusing me of saying things that i am not saying. reread some of my posts and reconsider some of the words you have said. i try not to be personally offended but the tone that you are taking in your writing is becoming that way.

the last thing i want to say (on this post of the thread anyway ;)) is that i completely agree that sinners are and should be in positions of leadership within the church. we are ALL sinners, every one of us! there would be no leadership if perfection was a qualification. However there are habitual sins and sin in bondage that should be discouraged in leaders, and that is the point i was trying to make. you cannot have a close walk with God if you refuse to give up your sin (repent and stop), and if you are not walking closely with God then it is very dangerous for you to decide the direction of the church.

[GivingMyAll4Him]

herev--

i keep rereading that and you made some great points... and honestly i dont have answers for a lot of what is on there. this is going to sound like a cheap cop out but I was trying to point out changes that need to be made, now how I plan on making them, because honestly I do not know. There are minds greater than mine and others who God will inspire in a different ways, but I am lost as to what to do. I was merely trying to provoke thought (which, after reading many of the posts on this thread, I think has has been accomplished).

I admit that I tend to chase ideal situations. Wouldnt it be great if the church somehow could be as I described? I'm definitely a dreamer. But if nothing else... if this post has not provoked any thought as to how the church can be improved... I hope that we realize that we can not allow it to deteriorate into worldliness.

[herev]

I am talking about sin that the sinner refuses to give up, even if it means a closer walk with God.


My view on this is that it is up to us to introduce people to Jesus--the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sins. ALL of us refuse to give up sins, many of us are unaware that our actions ARE sinful. We need conviction before we can repent. In God's time. In God's time

[Snow Angel]

It doesn't matter if you have to preach on the street,you are not suppose to
change one word of the Bible.It would be better to have a small church with God.
Than a large one and change the word, just to get more people to come.It's just
like all the holidays,This one church said they were Easter People,What has the church
have to do with hunting Eggs And a bunny.I can see Passover:
God Bless: :pray:

[sinner/SAVED]

herev--

sinner/saved--
you are absolutely not reading my posts before you comment, and it is getting to the place where you are accusing me of saying things that i am not saying. reread some of my posts and reconsider some of the words you have said. i try not to be personally offended but the tone that you are taking in your writing is becoming that way.



I apologize if I have offended, but I did read your posts. The point that I try to make is that being judgemental is just as much a sin as being homomosexual. I think Herev made the point better than I. Sin is sin. Even the holiest among us is just as much a sinner as anyone else. I as much as anyone, and yet my church considers me a leader.

[GivingMyAll4Him]

1 Corinthians 5:6 says “Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?”

That is a verse I used in my first post. Sin in the Church, especially in the board and voting members, will work it's way through the entire church. Just thought I'd post that for a reaction again.