Going to the Chapel and we're going get married . . .

[Diane_Windsor]

Prince of Wales and Camilla Parker-Bowles to marry. Click here (http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/news/index.php) for story. I though you all might be interested in knowing since Prince Charles will become the head of your church when he becomes king.

:)

[PaladinValer]

The ABC is the first among equals and Earthly head of our Church actually. The king or queen of England has no real authority except ceremonial.

[Diane_Windsor]

No difference-the PoW will still become official Head of the CoE correct as the Pope is Head of the RCC? The AoC is simply the Leader correct? I'm not saying that the Queen has any authority, but by her being head she does hold significant symbolic value. This symbolic meaning will of course pass onto Charles.

DW
:)

[PaladinValer]

You are incorrect.

1. We have no pope nor do we have a figure, symbolic or otherwise, that can equate to one. We are autocephalous, not "unitary" with a few key exception like the Vatican Church.
2. The ABC (Archbishop of Canterbury) is the first among equals of the Anglican Communion. His power in terms of the entire Church is that he and only he can decide who is in Communion with the Holy See of Canterbury and who isn't. His own administrative powers as bishop reside only in his own province, the Church of England.
3. The monarch in England, I do not bow to, nor does any Anglican outside Great Britian. The only aspect the monarch really has "over" the Anglican Church is that he or she pays a part in the pomp and circumstance over the enthrownment of a new ABC. That's it.

[pmcleanj]

The ABC is the first among equals and Earthly head of our Church actually. The king or queen of England has no real authority except ceremonial.
Well, I'd say that overstates the role of the ArchBishop of Canterbury; but it doesn't change the fact that the Sovereign is *NOT* the head of the church. She or he has secular authority over the administration of the Church of England (meaning that Canon law requires Royal Assent to be passed into law, and legislation affecting the church -- the Church of England is an established church, remember -- also requires Royal Assent). But the Sovereign cannot promulgate dogma, and has no authority at all, secular or otherwise, over Anglicans who are not part of the Church of England.

Henry the VIII did indeed pass the Act of Supremacy declaring himself the Supreme head on Earth of the Church in England; that act was repealed under Elizabeth I. No, Diane, the Queen does not have the symbolic role that you attribute to her.

[pmcleanj]

The monarch in England, I do not bow to, nor does any Anglican outside Great Britian.


Ummm, ahem.

The monarch in England is also Queen of Canada, and several other constitutional monarchies. I certainly do bow to her, and she holds my personal oath made as a member of Canada's armed forces.

But the Anglican Chruch of Canada is NOT established, and the Sovereign doesn't even have the administrative role in our Province, that she has over the Church of England. And she is certainly not equivalent to a pope!

[PaladinValer]

Hmmm...poor wording on my part. I meant it as the "Earthly head" of the Anglican province of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as obviously no Eastern or Oriental Orthodox or Vatican Catholic is under ++Rowan Williams.

My apologies for the confusion. :sorry:

Edit: Over Canada? I thought that was just ceremonial, as per the Commonwealth.

[Iron Sun 254]

She's on the coins, for goodness sake.

[pmcleanj]

She's on the coins, for goodness sake.
Hmmm. And I put those coins in the offering plate, too :eek: . And since biblically we are told we must render unto Caesar, then she and church *must* be one. ;)

But wait -- I usually write a cheque, so I'm alright. And as long as I avoid the twenties, even bills are alright: they have dead Prime Ministers on them. But do dead Prime Ministers truly belong to God, or, having been politicians, are they subject to more speculation about their eventual fate? :eek:

[Diane_Windsor]

Paladin,

I never said you did have a pope. I said that the Sovereign is the Head of your church like the Pope is Head of the RCC. The Sovereign might not have all the authority of a pope, but both the pope and the Sovereign are Head of their respective churches.

No, Diane, the Queen does not have the symbolic role that you attribute to her.

pmcleanj,

I disagree. Why was there a controversey surrounding Edward VIII and divorcee Wallis Simpson that shook the foundations of the British monarchy? Why was major controversey avoided when Princess Margaret decided NOT to marry Peter Townsend?

There was controversey surrounding Edward VIII because Wallis Simpson was divorced with two living former spouses, and the King was Head of a church that frowned upon divorce. Fast forward a generation later and you have the issue between Princess Margaret and Gp Captain Peter Townsend who was divorced. There was great pressure on QEII not to give her consent for her sister to marry Townsend because she was Head of a church that frowned upon divorce.

The Monarch does have significant symbolic value as Head of the CoE, and history prooves it.

Anyway, we are getting way off topic here. The future Head of your church is getting married :) I hope that they are happy and blessed.

DW
:)

[TomUK]

The Church of England, and the monarch's relation to it, was established through a series of Parliamentary Acts in the 1530s, which brought about the English Reformation. Henry VIII broke from the Roman Catholic Church by denying papal claims to ecclesiastical or any other jurisdiction, and by declaring himself rather than the Pope as Supreme Head of the Church in England.

The Preface to the 39 Articles of the Church of England describes the monarch as 'being by God's Ordinance, according to Our just Title, Defender of the Faith and ... Supreme Governor of the Church of England'. The monarch must be in communion with the Church of England (i.e. a full, confirmed member) and, in his or her coronation oath, the monarch promises to maintain the Church.

There are many examples of the relationship between the established Church and the State. Archbishops and bishops are appointed by The Queen on the advice of the Prime Minister, who considers the names selected by a Church Commission. They take an oath of allegiance to The Queen on appointment and may not resign without royal authority.

The connection between Church and State is also symbolised by the fact that the 'Lords Spiritual' (consisting of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and 24 diocesan bishops) sit in the House of Lords. Parish priests also take an oath of allegiance to The Queen.

The General Synod (including the bishops, elected representatives from the clergy and the laity) is the supreme authority of the Church of England. The Queen opens the Synod after the elections in the dioceses every five years. Since 1919, the Synod (formerly called the Church Assembly) has had the power (delegated by Parliament) to pass Measures on any matter concerning the Church of England.

Following acceptance of the Measures by both Houses of Parliament (which cannot amend them, nor - by convention - initiate or discuss ecclesiastical Measures, as many members of both Houses do not belong to the Church of England), the Measures are submitted for Royal Assent and become law.

In addition to legislating for the Church by Measure, the General Synod has the power to legislate by Canon in its own domestic affairs such as worship and doctrine, but The Queen's assent is required for the promulgation of such Canons. Such assent is given on the Home Secretary's advice.

(The above is from the Queen's website)

The Queen is far more integral to the church than she is often given credit for. I don't know if i am incorrect in believing this but to me the Queen/monarch is the earthly head of the Church.

[pmcleanj]

Please read the Anglican Forum Rules at http://www.christianforums.com/t713425-scripturetraditionreason-anglican-forum-rules.html

In particular, please note rule 4:Non-Anglican members can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Anglican doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Anglican.

Whether you disagree or not, you may not come into the Anglican Forum and tell us who the head of our church is. The foregoing posts have clarified what the role of the Monarch is within the Church of England, and have clarified that the Church of England is only a single Province within the Anglican Church.

Prince Charles is getting married. I hope he and his wife are happy and blessed. But he is not the future Head of our church.

[pmcleanj]

The Queen is far more integral to the church than she is often given credit for. I don't know if i am incorrect in believing this but to me the Queen/monarch is the earthly head of the Church.

She is indeed the secular head of the Church of England. But not the head of any disestablished Province -- and we are as much part of the Church as is the CofE. And secular headship is limited: she does not have powers in any way similar to the Pope's, to issue enforceable moral teachings, or to define doctrine or promulgate dogma, even within her own Province.

[pmcleanj]

Henry the VIII did indeed pass the Act of Supremacy declaring himself the Supreme head on Earth of the Church in England; that act was repealed under Elizabeth I.

Just a little more detail on this. Henry VIII passed the Act of Supremacy in 1534, declaring the king "supreme head of the Church of England".The Act of Supremacy was actually repealed under Mary, along with a great many acts related to the English Reformation that were declared under both Henry and Edward. In 1559, Elizabeth restored in mass most of the acts that were repealed by Mary, not including the 1534 Act of Supremacy.

Instead, Elizabeth's Supremacy Act of 1559 indirectly declares "the queen's highness is the only supreme governor of this realm, and of all other her highness's dominions and countries, as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes, as temporal, and that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate, has, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, preeminence, or authority ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm". (It doesn't explicitly make this declaration, but requires an oath to this effect from all officials of the realm, including bishops.)

The shift from "supreme head of the church" to "supreme governor of this realm" may seem subtle, given that the governance acknowledged explicitely includes "all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes"; but it is nonetheless an important distinction between the role Henry sought to play in the Church, and the role that is played by Elizabeth's heirs and successors.

[Iron Sun 254]

Whether you disagree or not, you may not come into the Anglican Forum and tell us who the head of our church is. The foregoing posts have clarified what the role of the Monarch is within the Church of England, and have clarified that the Church of England is only a single Province within the Anglican Church.

Prince Charles is getting married. I hope he and his wife are happy and blessed. But he is not the future Head of our church.

This really is pretty silly, regardless of whether or not it violates the rules. Diane is trying to argue that we don't even know who the head of the church is. Its analogous (and no disrespect is meant to the Queen here) to arguing with a McDonald's employee that Ronald McDonald is the CEO of the company. Well, okay, it's not quite the same but you all get my point here.

[benedictine]

On a related note: http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/g/g252.html

[pmcleanj]

On a related note: http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/g/g252.html
*leaps to her feet and stands at attention*

They used to play that at the end of any public event -- even a movie screening at the local theatre. That doesn't happen any more, but it's still used at the end of school assemblies in some places.

[RedneckAnglican]

Prince Charles is getting married. I hope he and his wife are happy and blessed. But he is not the future Head of our church.

No offence to anyone, but Prince Charles anit the head of my anything...Church or otherwise...and the hymn sounds a lot like "God Bless America" to me :P

as stated above...i do hope he is happy...he has taken a lot of stuff from people over this...

[pmcleanj]

..and the hymn sounds a lot like "God Bless America" to me :P .
That's My Country 'tis of Thee -- God Bless America has an original tune. :P

[TomUK]

and the hymn sounds a lot like "God Bless America" to me

You can't be serious?! That 'hymn' is my national anthem and i assure you that it is nothing like 'God bless america', either musically or interpretively.

[UberLutheran]

And with regards to the "Queen" thingie: despite all the problems in the House of Windsor, I've always really liked the Queen of England!

I remember when she visited Austin during April, which for us is spring and for her must have been one of the most horrendous summer days imaginable! She spoke at the State Capitol, and about 30,000 people filled the streets around the Capitol to hear her speak. It was in the low 90s when she spoke, which is a reasonably warm day for late April in Texas -- but we could see her dabbing her face! Poor thing...

I sent the Queen a request asking if she'd like for me to come to Windsor Castle and play a piano recital for her (Beethoven, Liszt, Ravel, and one of my left-hand transcriptions of Chopin etudes). Never did hear back from her...

(I can see the epitaph on my gravestone: "He had chutzpah"!)

[Orchids]

And with regards to the "Queen" thingie: despite all the problems in the House of Windsor, I've always really liked the Queen of England!

I remember when she visited Austin during April, which for us is spring and for her must have been one of the most horrendous summer days imaginable! She spoke at the State Capitol, and about 30,000 people filled the streets around the Capitol to hear her speak. It was in the low 90s when she spoke, which is a reasonably warm day for late April in Texas -- but we could see her dabbing her face! Poor thing...

I sent the Queen a request asking if she'd like for me to come to Windsor Castle and play a piano recital for her (Beethoven, Liszt, Ravel, and one of my left-hand transcriptions of Chopin etudes). Never did hear back from her...

(I can see the epitaph on my gravestone: "He had chutzpah"!)

Maybe she will invite you to the wedding of her son? :D

[UberLutheran]

So... ...who's going to bring the wasp? ;)

[RedneckAnglican]

That's My Country 'tis of Thee -- God Bless America has an original tune. :P

sorry...i always get that mixed up...must be the cold medicine...

[trooper]

I am really proud of everyone for wishing Charles a happy wedding. I think that this is a disaster. The would-be Defender of the Faith, an adulterer, is marrying a woman (divorced) who was the object of his adultery (did that break some grammar rules?). Where is the ABC? Charles should leave that DoF thing out of the coronation.

[TomUK]

It's not quite that simple. Prince Charles will be the defender of the faith. You can't just leave parts of the coronation out.

[pmcleanj]

I am really proud of everyone for wishing Charles a happy wedding. I think that this is a disaster. The would-be Defender of the Faith, an adulterer, is marrying a woman (divorced) who was the object of his adultery (did that break some grammar rules?). Where is the ABC? Charles should leave that DoF thing out of the coronation.
Our Sovereign Lady, Queen Elizabeth, is not sinless. She is discrete. She is wise. But not sinless.

Since she is discrete and wise, I don't have any specific, tabloid-exploited sin that I'm going by; just Scripture that says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yet despite her fallen nature, she is still Defender of the Faith.

Where is ++Rowan Williams in all this? Probably counselling the Prince, in private, as is his jog. Just as ++George Carey counselled the Prince during the period of the Prince's failing marriage. Maybe confession and absolution have been part of that spiritual guidance. We can pray (in fact, those of us with the original prayer book do pray, weekly) for the spiritual health of the members of the Royal family; but as for what goes on in their confessionals, we're simply going to have to rely on the clergy just as we do for commoners' sins and spiritual health.

Regardless, the Prince's upcoming marriage certainly doesn't make his past transgressions any worse, so why would we begrudge him that happiness?

[Cjwinnit]

She's on the coins, for goodness sake.

Interestingly the Canadian coins differ from the English ones in that the Canadian coins do not include "F.D." on them.

You can't be serious?! That 'hymn' is my national anthem

Actually it's not official. Personally I prefer "I vow to thee my country".

[trooper]

pmcleanj,

I'm just one of those fringe Anglicans who don't buy the whole remarriage thing, as regards marrying a divorced person. You are right, however, that Charles' past sins are a matter between his confessor and him. My bad!:sorry:

[pmcleanj]

I'm just one of those fringe Anglicans who don't buy the whole remarriage thing, as regards marrying a divorced person.

Well, even if you believe that divorce is a legal fiction and marriage is terminated only by death, the the Prince of Wales is a widower and still free to marry. But you're right, under that definition, Mrs. Parker-Bowles would not be free to marry. I wasn't thinking about her situation.

[TomUK]

Actually it's not official. Personally I prefer "I vow to thee my country"

True, but like many aspects of a legal code and constitution it is official by convention. If it was ever to be changed though i'm not sure what i'd want. The words to i vow thee my country are amazing, though is a bit girly for me ( :sorry: ). I really can't decide between 'jerusalem', 'land of hope and glory' or 'i vow to thee'.

However, why would we ever want to change?

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
God save us all!

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over.

From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!

:thumbsup: :amen: :clap: