Lotar's Horrid Question of the Day

[Lotar]

That stupid thread (http://www.christianforums.com/t1223499-the-roman-catholic-church-is-not-the-early-church.html&page=14) going down in the GT got me thinking about this:

On that note, if the Nicene Creed is the definition of what is and isn't Christian, are evangelicals really Christian, since they do not believe in "one Baptism for the remission of sins"?

They (evangelicals) re-Baptize those who were baptized as infants, and profess that Baptism means nothing and is only a symbol.

So, would the be considered Christian, even though they clearly don't hold to the intended meaning of the Creed? :scratch:

I know my priest does not accept the baptism of converts from evangelicalism. So, can they truly be Christian if they haven't even been properly baptized?

[Wiffey]

Interesting question. I'm not touching it with a 10 foot pole...

[Fotina]

I don't recall the exact ref. but St Paul said something like, those outside have God as their judge, while the Church judges its own.

In other words, we know what is required for those who freely enter and belong to the Church. We don't know what it is for those who don't belong.

We know where the Church is, not where it is not.

my 2 cents :)

Fotina

[elizabethevangeline]

...have no answer for you, but that thread is enough to have me running from the room screaming. Need a little smilie guy for that.

[Orthosdoxa]

I just stay out of there, period. It's all the horrid and anti-Christ heresies of the first few centuries spouted in "new" forms.

My answer is: Christ did not come to invent a thing called Christianity. Christ came to build a Church, which would be His Mystical Body and His Holy Bride. These folks who scoff at baptism, which is entrance into the Church, and worse yet, hate the Church that Christ built, obviously cannot be called members of the Church, which is the real question.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/christianity_church_e.htm

That being said, I must emphatically state again that we as Orthodox do not profess that being in or out of the Church is an automatic ticket in or out of hell. We only know that Life within the Church, is a picture of the Holy Trinity, and is the way that Christ left for us to return to that perfect communion with Him that was broken in the fall.

LK

[Maximus]

Well, they don't really believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, either, do they?

Nor do they believe simply that our Lord Jesus will "come again with glory to judge the living and the dead."

Many of them believe He will come to secretly "rapture" all the Dispensationalists first.

Let's face it: they are not Nicene Christians at all, but the poor, deluded heirs of heretical teaching.

Many of them don't know any better; it's the only version of Christianity with which they are familiar.

What of the liberals of the mainline Protestant denominations? You know, the ones who deny the Virgin Birth and the Second Coming?

Are they Christians?

[xenia]

Well, they have different definitions for the phrases of the Creed than we have. Their definitions are not the same as those of the writers of the Creed.

Take that wonderful phrase that always gives me shivers of joy: We believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Protestants reason within themselves like this: The "church" is not an organization, it's everyone who is a believer. Since all believers have received the Holy Spirit, they are holy. "Catholic," means universal. Well, there's only one way to God, so the way of salvation in universal. Apostolic? They base everything on the Bible, which was written by the apostles. They can cheerfully sign their names to the Creed without batting an eye, being unfamiliar with the history behind it.

This doesn't bother me too much, in all honesty. God has a standard, the Creed, and most Christians say they agree with it whether they understand it or not, and for all I know, there may be some mystical significance to this phenomenon.

[Oblio]

Am I the only one who held his breath, seeing the author and the the title, before clicking on it :)

[VioletAngel]

I have in the past been amazed at people who join a church different from their parents, and then have to undergo another baptism again. It is something I would not tolerate. If I had to get baptized again, there is no question I wouldn't join it! My 2¢ again... :D

[gzt]

We don't baptize again, we believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. Though if somebody was never baptized with a trinitarian baptism in water, they will have to be baptized since they were never baptized before.

However, some bishops may have slightly different practices because of the doubts about whether one was previously baptized in an orthodox trinitarian fashion. But, generally, "rebaptism" is not practiced.

[prodromos]

However, some bishops may have slightly different practices because of the doubts about whether one was previously baptized in an orthodox trinitarian fashion. But, generally, "rebaptism" is not practiced.
There is a general push towards less economia and more akrivia in this regard though.

[Dust and Ashes]

Am I the only one who held his breath, seeing the author and the the title, before clicking on it :)

Well, if you count a resigned sigh as holding one's breath. :D

[Dust and Ashes]

I have in the past been amazed at people who join a church different from their parents, and then have to undergo another baptism again. It is something I would not tolerate. If I had to get baptized again, there is no question I wouldn't join it! My 2¢ again... :D

My paternal grandfather was a Primitive Baptist minister and he baptized my aunt. When she married her Campellite husband and joined his church, she flatly refused to be rebaptized and I guess they accepted it.

When I spoke with Father about converting, he basically wanted to know if my baptism were trinitarian and if it had followed a genuine conversion experience.

[Rilian]

There is a general push towards less economia and more akrivia in this regard though.

That's good, because there has been waaaaaay too much economia in terms of how converts are received.

[elizabethevangeline]

There is a general push towards less economia and more akrivia in this regard though.

If I enter the Orthodox church, I would really like to be baptized, but would obey whatever was decided.

I grew up evangelical, accepted Christ as a child but would never get baptized because I didn't want to get up in front of everyone. When I was a freshman in college I made "Lordship" decision...to really follow Christ. I quickly got baptized in a conservative Baptist church, it was in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but I never associated salvation with it...it was just a public demonstration of personal faith, done out of obediance.

[Rilian]

ee, I'm still a catechumen, and my wife and I had experiences and feelings very similar to yours. I can tell you how we decided to handle it if you're interested. I would rather do it in Pm though, just let me know.

[Lotar]

My priest makes converts get baptized unless they were baptized in a sacramental church. So basically, everyone accept for the ex-Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Episcopalians.

[Lotar]

Am I the only one who held his breath, seeing the author and the the title, before clicking on it :)

I see my reputation preceeds me. :D

[Maximus]

I was baptized Lutheran as an infant.

Happily, my baptismal certificate is really nice and has the Trinitarian baptismal formula that was used printed inside it.

I was received into the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church by chrismation.

[NewToLife]

In my case I was baptised Anglican as an infant and was received by Chrismation into the Church.

For my part I do not feel that the Church has exercised too much economia in the area of reception of converts, the Church in my view is fully able to complete the partially invalid sacrament of a convert's previous baptism. We have to recognise that although the Church may be one and undivided, and that a person is either within the Church or not, the Church may still operate in the lives of those who are not a part of her. God's love is not bounded by the limits of the visible church, rather by the power of God the Church extends her operations beyond her physical boundaries, reaching out in the search for the sheep who have become lost.

[elizabethevangeline]

Happily, my baptismal certificate is really nice and has the Trinitarian baptismal formula that was used printed inside it.
.

I don't know that I received a certificate, & if I did...who knows what I did with it...would that be required as proof of baptism?

[Lotar]

Where were you baptized?

[elizabethevangeline]

I was baptized at a conservative Baptist church in my hometown in 1986.

[Lotar]

Then you probably don't have a certificate. You can contact the church to see if they have a record, but I doubt it.

[Oblio]

Can't she just have her letter sent over to her parish :)

[Orthosdoxa]

That was my experience too, EE - Baptist church, no records. I could not remember whether or not they had used a trinitarian formula. Being Baptist they "probably" had, but this board is proof enough that not all baptists are trinitarians! And I really didn't know. It troubled me so much - the idea of being received by chrismation when I possibly had not had a trinitarian baptism, that my priest contacted the Bishop, who gave his blessing for me to be baptized, even though I "might" have already had a trinitarian baptism.

[Matrona]

I was received by Baptism and Chrismation because, even though my family had belonged to a church for some time in my childhood, I do not remember being baptized. There was no record of any baptism, and I knew there was no guarantee that they would have even had me baptized in the trinitarian formula. So my priest brought his horse trough to me and baptized me in that.

[elizabethevangeline]

Can't she just have her letter sent over to her parish :)

Umm, I lettered in high school sports, but I'm sure that's not what you're talking about. :)

What's my letter?

[Oblio]

Umm, I lettered in high school sports, but I'm sure that's not what you're talking about. :)

What's my letter?


It's Baptist speak for your letter of Baptism and that you are a member in good standing in your current 'church'. When you switch churches, your pastor will request that your 'letter' be sent over to his (or her :eek: ) church.

[Maximus]

It's Baptist speak for your letter of Baptism and that you are a member in good standing in your current 'church'. When you switch churches, your pastor will request that your 'letter' be sent over to his (or her :eek: ) church.

I attended a Southern Baptist Church as a teenager (a friend went there, so I did, too).

I remember that they used to vote on whether or not to let someone join the Baptist Church.

That really strikes me as strange now. (Actually, I thought it was strange even back then.)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I had a Trinitarian baptism at age 17 (by full emersion), and I have a certificate to prove it. However, I noticed that the pastor forgot to sign the certificate. Will that be a problem?

[elizabethevangeline]

I never was a member of the CB church. In fact, I always resisted "joining" a church because it was just a man-made governing system and that kind of church membership wasn't what it meant to be part of the body of Christ. (I remember arguing about that in high school. I was more right than I knew) At our last home church, my husband & I did become members. When we left there, we told the paster we needed some time away but weren't decided on permanently leaving. Our children still attended. They dropped us out of the next printing of the church directory, and I'm sure they revoked our membership without notifying us. I don't think the Evangelical Free churches do "letters" anyway.

[Maximus]

I had a Trinitarian baptism at age 17 (by full emersion), and I have a certificate to prove it. However, I noticed that the pastor forgot to sign the certificate. Will that be a problem?

I don't think so.

They have your word that you were baptized using the Trinitarian, biblical formula, and a certificate (even if unsigned).

I think your bishop will accept that.

[Orthosdoxa]

I don't think that should be a problem, GDE.

And oh yeah, "letters" for when you transfer to a different Baptist place. I'd forgotten all about that! I always wondered what the point of that was.

[Mary of Bethany]

I was able to get a baptism certificate from a 40-years-ago baptism from my childhood Southern Baptist church. They might have better records than you think. :)


Mary