Saints in Heaven?

[gord96]

hey all,

I was wondering if you could help me with something.....the Orthodox beleif is that the saints are with Christ in Heaven right now.....some say that scripture said that the riteous dead are in a sleep right now waiting for the ressurection.....where does the belief that the saints are in heaven come from?? any scripture? thanks very much

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Body sleeps.. the soul is with Christ... you won't find it clearly defined in scriptures I don't think...

After death we experience a "foretaste" of eternity.... If we lived a Godly life we will feel the light of God pleasing, if not we will feel the light of God as torment.

One place in scripture that I can think of that gives hints is Revelations 6:9-10

God Bless....

Forgive me....

[Oblio]

gord,

Check out the last 3 (at the time I write this) archives on the Our Life in Christ (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/archives.htm) Orthodox Radio talk show that address this very issue. There are also text notes to the left of each link. IIRC they are going to be doing 4-5 shows on this topic, so check back for updates.

[Oblio]

Here ya go:

January 23, 2005: Prayers to the Saints - Part 1: What is a Saint? (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/audio/mp3/saints1_012305.mp3)
January 30, 2005: Prayers to the Saints - Part 2: Why Intercession? (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/audio/mp3/saints2_013005.mp3)
February 6, 2005: Prayer to the Saints - Part 3: The State of the Dead (http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/audio/mp3/saints3_020605.mp3)

[Rilian]

I can’t listen to the links Oblio posted until later, so I hope I’m not repeating anything.

Usually the justification I’ve heard for the idea of soul sleep is based on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. I believe the Fathers understood this passage to be relating to bodily resurrection of the dead, not about the state of the soul after death.

Consider the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 however, which is usually understood to be the clearest statement of the soul after death to be found in the Bible. The rich man has not been resurrected, yet he is conscious, aware of his fate and sees Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. He calls out to God for relief and the ability to warn his brothers what may await them.

Revelation 6: 9-11 talks about the souls of those slain under the altar of the Lord who cry out to him.

Revelation 5:8-12 talks about elders and angels surrounding the Lord.

In Matthew 17 Jesus is seen with Moses and Elijah and he converses with them.

In Matthew 22 Jesus tells the Sadducees that God is not the God the dead, but of the living.

To us the saints are alive, not dead. That’s the important thing to remember. We don’t pray to or for the dead. We ask for the intercessions of the living saints worshipping at the throne of God.

[Marjorie]

Also remember that when we talk about the "foretaste" which the dead experience of the life to come-- that time does not necessarily apply to those whose soul and body are separated. They may already be in the world to come; they might already be experiencing the Final Judgment. It's all too obscure for us to understand.

We also refer to death as a "sleep," a "rest," a "repose." Yet it is not a sleep as in a lack of consciousness. We shall be with God, but in a period of expectation.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gord96]

I agree Marjorie....it is probably beyond our comprehension to understand the complexities of such things.....thanks for everyone's replies....Oblio I will have to check out those links when I get home

[prodromos]

Remember also that it has been the consistent experience of the Church throughout the centuries for saints to make appearances "in the flesh" so to speak. Saint Demetrios the Myrrh Streamer for example appeared many times aiding in the defence of the city of Thessaloniki when it was under attack. He's not the patron saint of Thessaloniki for nothing. On Mount Athos in Greece there are numerous accounts of visits from saints, especially of Mary, but definitely not limited to her.
Another favourite of mine, and I hope Iacobus doesn't mind me lifting it from his blog (http://minorclergy.journalspace.com/), is what happened with Elder Porphyrios recently.
Elder Porphyrious was a modern day elder in Greece. The Elder was an enormously holy man -- a genuine saint. On December 3, 1991, a spiritual child of his called him on the telephone, wanting to talk to him about some things in his life that were troubling. The Elder seemed to take an unusually long time to answer the phone, but he did pick up. They talked about the problems the caller was having, the health of his family, and then as they prepared to hang up, the Elder said: "I don't think I'll be able to answer the phone anymore, so this will be our last phone conversation."The unusual thing about this phone call is that Elder Porphyrios died on December 1, and had been dead for two days when he answered the phone :)

John.

[Rick of Wessex]

Some great articles about this:

What we believe about Saints (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_a_coniaris.htm), by Fr. Anthony Coniaris

Our intercessors in Heaven (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_b_alexander_e.htm), by Bp. Alexander Mileant

Communion with the Saints (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints_m_pomazansky_e.htm), by Fr. Michael Pomazansky

Hope this helps.

In XC,
Rick

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Remember also that it has been the consistent experience of the Church throughout the centuries for saints to make appearances "in the flesh" so to speak. Saint Demetrios the Myrrh Streamer for example appeared many times aiding in the defence of the city of Thessaloniki when it was under attack. He's not the patron saint of Thessaloniki for nothing. On Mount Athos in Greece there are numerous accounts of visits from saints, especially of Mary, but definitely not limited to her.
Another favourite of mine, and I hope Iacobus doesn't mind me lifting it from his blog (http://minorclergy.journalspace.com/), is what happened with Elder Porphyrios recently.
The unusual thing about this phone call is that Elder Porphyrios died on December 1, and had been dead for two days when he answered the phone :)

John.

Awesome!!!:bow:

[33ad]

I do not deny that Saints can appear in the flesh. They appear in dreams to some of us too (Seraphima, who is blind, gets visitations from St Seraphim of Sarov, Vasili the Blessed and has also had a visit from Onisimus, and Theotokos, but that is all I am willing to divulge about that.)

But we must bear in mind, that though God can permit a "Bodily Visit" from a Saint, they are at this time most of them in spirit form, and will only receive their Glorified Bodies on the day of Resurection. I am reading a very in-depth book on this subject at this time. I am taking it slowly, the content is deep. It is "The Mystery of Death" by Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis, translated from Greek. I bought it from Eastern Christian Supply Co.

Only if one has been Resurected in the body, like Theotekos, or Moses, is one truly "Present with God" in the place we call Heaven. When we are in spirit form "Sleeping" and awaiting the Resurection and Day of Judgement, we are in what Jesus called 'Abraham's Bossum' or like He told the thief on the cross, "Paradise". Of course, our God is Omnipresent, and He is present there too, but we should not confuse "Paradise" with Heaven.

Our beloved Theotokos was Resurected, and she is in her Glorified state. There are most likely others too, of which we do not know of at this time, that have also been Resurected bodily, and do dwell in Heaven. The prophet Elijah was translated alive to Heaven, so he was able to appear with Moses on Mount Tabor at the Transfigaration of our Lord.

Hope this didn't confuse issues or contadict what is in the radio programs. I have not been able to listen to them as my dialup is too slow.

Kolya