so who here is concerned...

[christosdoulos]

so, just a thought. Who here is concerned about how they can more effectively love someone today? Are you as concerned about that as you are about which form of baptism is sanctioned by God, if divorce is ok in some situations, if God elects only a select few. etc.

How about we focus on what we know clearly. Christ taught to love people. So do it.

[kayanne]

Great post! Exactly the kind of thinking I've been going through lately. For about a year or so I've been really searching and rethinking many things about my faith and my Christian life.
I've been a church that takes the Bible very seriously, which sounds like a good thing. Yet the focus is more on doctrine (those things in actuality are not clear cut) than living out a life of Christian love. I'm realizing that it's a lot easier to keep my nose in Bible commentaries, concordances, etc, studying to "show myself approved" (even though the real motive may be "winning" arguments) instead of simply being out in my community making a positive difference.
I look forward to others' comments.

[WesWoodell]

Good post - Theology is very important, but we shouldn't let our concerns with theology keep us from following the two greatest commandments: to love God with all our mind, soul, body and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself.

Honesltly I know some of the people on this board personally, and any theological argument they get into is actually one of their ways of loving their neighbor. If someone is in error and could be harmed, or cause others to be harmed because of it, they will do their best to correct the error. They are not arguing so they can say they are right, they are arguing to keep others from harm.

Don't judge them too harshly. ;)

[christosdoulos]

I can see the validity in theology (and actually enjoy studying it myself.) The main issue I have is that we set our theology up as if it is superior to the plain, simple teachings of Christ which, are actually harder to follow. (ie. it's easy to talk about the doctrine of baptism and which method is correct, yet trying to love your neighbor who is just a crotchity old man...thats difficult. Or, forgiving someone who abused you, etc.) That stuff is hard.

And I could agree with you Wes, I do tend to come down on the theological bicker at times. I went to a xtian college and they pretty much taught me the "correct" theological view(s). Needless to say, I left there a parrot of the school and not understanding the Bible.

However, we need to realize that a good portion of these topics pale in comparison to the love of Christ and the love that he expects us to give to others.

[Lutherrunner]

I can see the validity in theology (and actually enjoy studying it myself.) The main issue I have is that we set our theology up as if it is superior to the plain, simple teachings of Christ which, are actually harder to follow. (ie. it's easy to talk about the doctrine of baptism and which method is correct, yet trying to love your neighbor who is just a crotchity old man...thats difficult. Or, forgiving someone who abused you, etc.) That stuff is hard.

And I could agree with you Wes, I do tend to come down on the theological bicker at times. I went to a xtian college and they pretty much taught me the "correct" theological view(s). Needless to say, I left there a parrot of the school and not understanding the Bible.

However, we need to realize that a good portion of these topics pale in comparison to the love of Christ and the love that he expects us to give to others.

A very bold, yet wise statement.......:thumbsup:

[Eusebios]

Interesting and, I believe, timely thread. Theology is fine, praxis is far more important.
1 Corinthians 13


***1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

***2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

***3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[kayanne]

The main issue I have is that we set our theology up as if it is superior to the plain, simple teachings of Christ which, are actually harder to follow. (ie. it's easy to talk about the doctrine of baptism and which method is correct, yet trying to love your neighbor who is just a crotchity old man...thats difficult.....
However, we need to realize that a good portion of these topics pale in comparison to the love of Christ and the love that he expects us to give to others.

This is such a wonderful post. Actually just the other day I was searching all through the various forum titles, trying to find a place that focused on Christian living---a forum just about living out our Christian faith. A forum where debating would be practically non-existant, as people simply share opportunities they've had to serve the Lord as they love their neighbor. A forum where people could encourage the person dealing with the crotchity old man next door.
I was saddened that I couldn't find any such forum. Dozens of forums for debating doctrine, and no where for encouragement in Christian living? Maybe I missed it. Anyone know?

[xenia]

What a great thread!

All our study should be with just two goals in mind:

1. To love God better
2. To love people better

[christosdoulos]

What a great thread!

All our study should be with just two goals in mind:

1. To love God better
2. To love people better


That's what Christ was saying too. He (along with the Apostles) talked all about love. And, more than just talk, they lived it. The price of love, to some, was their life. However, we must remember to be absent of the body is to be present with the Lord.

[Stinker]

I can understand a Christian having to befriend a non-Christian (nowadays) in order to gain that person's trust enough to get them to be willing to follow Christ's teachings. However, it is unacceptable for Christians to have to befriend others who claim to be Christians in order to show them that they have left out of their Theology some 'plain and simple teaching of Christ' such as MK:16:16! That when the New Testament talks about faith, it is in reference to such situations such as 1Pet.3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that ASKETH YOU A REASON of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

When a person asks another person why they went and abandoned them by repenting of all their sins and getting baptized, that is the faith of the New Testament working.

[Lutherrunner]

However, it is unacceptable for Christians to have to befriend others who claim to be Christians in order to show them that they have left out of their Theology some 'plain and simple teaching of Christ' such as MK:16:16!

.....and thus begins the downward spiral of a very wonderful thread......if we have a different theology than the fundies, then we have false doctrine and surely we are destined to he!!......might as well pack our bags now.....:sigh:

[xenia]

This is such a wonderful post. Actually just the other day I was searching all through the various forum titles, trying to find a place that focused on Christian living---a forum just about living out our Christian faith. A forum where debating would be practically non-existant, as people simply share opportunities they've had to serve the Lord as they love their neighbor. A forum where people could encourage the person dealing with the crotchity old man next door.
I was saddened that I couldn't find any such forum. Dozens of forums for debating doctrine, and no where for encouragement in Christian living? Maybe I missed it. Anyone know?

Why don't you suggest such a forum? Go up to Official Forums/CF Support/Suggest New Forums and present your idea. If we don't already have such a forum, chances are very good that one might be added.

[WesWoodell]

This is such a wonderful post. Actually just the other day I was searching all through the various forum titles, trying to find a place that focused on Christian living---a forum just about living out our Christian faith. A forum where debating would be practically non-existant, as people simply share opportunities they've had to serve the Lord as they love their neighbor. A forum where people could encourage the person dealing with the crotchity old man next door.
I was saddened that I couldn't find any such forum. Dozens of forums for debating doctrine, and no where for encouragement in Christian living? Maybe I missed it. Anyone know?


Check out the Deeper Fellowship section: http://www.christianforums.com/f136-deeper-fellowship.html

[kayanne]

I can understand a Christian having to befriend a non-Christian (nowadays) in order to gain that person's trust enough to get them to be willing to follow Christ's teachings. However, it is unacceptable for Christians to have to befriend others who claim to be Christians in order to show them that they have left out of their Theology some 'plain and simple teaching of Christ' such as MK:16:16! That when the New Testament talks about faith, it is in reference to such situations such as 1Pet.3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that ASKETH YOU A REASON of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

When a person asks another person why they went and abandoned them by repenting of all their sins and getting baptized, that is the faith of the New Testament working.

Well, your name is fitting! ;)

I don't really "get" your post, and it seems you don't really "get" this thread either. So I'm going to try again.

On doctrine after doctrine (be it baptism, election, tongues, feetwashing, one communion cup or individual, communion every worship service or once a month, on and on and on and on), you're going to have a sizeable number of genuine Christians who interpret Scripture one way, and a sizeable number of genuine Christians who believe the other way.

If I am so arrogant so as to be 100% sure that I am right in every debateable point of doctrine, and millions of Christians who disagree with me are wrong, then firstly I have a pride problem. For whatever reason, God did not make every thing crystal clear in the Bible. And don't try to tell me that these issues are crystal clear, because if they were, then we wouldn't have these endless debates, there would not be scholars and pastors and other well-educated Christians coming to opposite conclusions. And secondly, if I let my Christian faith be consumed by a perceived need to get everyone to "my side" on these issues, at the neglect of being kind, humble, and loving in my discussions, at the neglect of serving the poor and needy, at the neglect of DOING acts of love and kindness in the name of Jesus---then I am a pathetic example of a Christian.

Many Scriptures are difficult to interpret. Many issues are not clear cut. But "love your neighbor as yourself" is pretty clear. So is "This is pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father, to visit orphans and widows in their distress."

I thank the OP for challenging us to examine our Christian walk, particularly our love and service.

[Lutherrunner]

Kayanne, you rock!.......(you sure you're a baptist?.....sorry, kinda kidding, but you are unlike others I have been exposed to......peace be with you....)

[hooverbranch]

well I think everyone needs to remember the 3 teirs of theology. The first teir being the essential Gospel. (most of the stuff in the nicene creed) Then there is the Second Teir this is the clear cut essentials to your Doctrine. (such as love your neighbor and such) Then their is the Third teir this is the stuff that is highly debated and not essential to salvation but still essential in the fact that God wants us to be like Bereans and study his word for are views. (these are things such as Election, tongues, etc.)

If we remember this then maybe we will remember that the Third teir is a biblical matter not one of your own but one for the bible. This doesnt mean we cant talk and even debate about them but lets not allow them to interfere with the first and second teirs.

p.s. I personally wouldnt but Baptism in the third teir for I believe that you are saved by Grace alone and Faith alone as explained in Romans one verses 16 and 17. And that baptism is an outward expression of an inward possesion that we should all do in obediance of God. But that is just me.

[christosdoulos]

You have a good point there hoover and it seems to me that majority of people like to bring the 3rd tier and move it to the essentials.

In regards to stinkers post...thats what I'm talking about. This flows right in with the way America operates. "I'm right, you don't know what you're doing, listen to me and do what I say."

As you put it kayanne, if these were clear and concise issue taught in the Bible, then we would not be having these debates (all the time.)

So let us continue to strive for that which we know to be true and all else leave in the back seat.

I really can't wait until we will "meet, face to face."

[Stinker]

well I think everyone needs to remember the 3 teirs of theology. The first teir being the essential Gospel. (most of the stuff in the nicene creed) Then there is the Second Teir this is the clear cut essentials to your Doctrine. (such as love your neighbor and such) Then their is the Third teir this is the stuff that is highly debated and not essential to salvation but still essential in the fact that God wants us to be like Bereans and study his word for are views. (these are things such as Election, tongues, etc.)

If we remember this then maybe we will remember that the Third teir is a biblical matter not one of your own but one for the bible. This doesnt mean we cant talk and even debate about them but lets not allow them to interfere with the first and second teirs.

p.s. I personally wouldnt but Baptism in the third teir for I believe that you are saved by Grace alone and Faith alone as explained in Romans one verses 16 and 17. And that baptism is an outward expression of an inward possesion that we should all do in obediance of God. But that is just me.


"The first tier being the essential Gospel (most of the stuff in the Nicene Creed)." It looks like you are saying that those who were taught that baptism and repentance are not essential to salvation get to 'pick and choose' from the Nicene Creed as to which is essential Gospel.

[kayanne]

"The first tier being the essential Gospel (most of the stuff in the Nicene Creed)." It looks like you are saying that those who were taught that baptism and repentance are not essential to salvation get to 'pick and choose' from the Nicene Creed as to which is essential Gospel.

Stinker,
Here's an invitation to join me in my just-created thread entitled "a different type of discussion about baptism". (and don't make me regret inviting you!) ;)

[Darin7777]

The right word is "balance". I agree that love is an important ingredient in a christian's life and without it the very work we do may it be outwardly good would be in vain. However, love without boundaries even to the point of abandoning biblical standards is not really christian love but a mere desire to be liked by everyone. The apostle who said "I have become all things to all men that I may gain the more" was also the same apostle who said "who has bewitched you to abandon the gospel of Christ for another gospel".

Let us love people in the Lord.

[daverain]

.


I love the previous post.


I'll second that.




(By The Way: the 'bewitched' verse, is in Galations: A VERY powerful, yet short book of the New Covenant,)


Peace in Christ.


.

[christosdoulos]

Darin, I'd completely agree with you. The reason that I made the OP was that I am not seeing love in much that we (xtians) do. You are right though, abandoning everything for love can lead to complete tolerance of everyone's actions and therefore not teaching what the Bible teaches.

The gospel is an offense to people and if we are merely concerned with loving people and them loving us (which usually doesn't mean love, rather like and acceptance) then the gospel will lose is potency.