Obedience?

[MG]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved? Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

[AquaFINEa]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved? Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

I think that, like alot of things, worldly behavior is not something that only Non-Believers take part in. I believe, though, that just as people are called by God on an individual basis, we are convicted on an individual basis, as well. There are things that one person may feel convicted not to take part in, while her brother may not. I think that hardness of the heart is at work in this, as well, though. The Lord has some things to say about the above-mentioned actions. He spoke in the Word of the fact that it is not necessarily what man puts into his body (or mouth, in this case) that makes him unlcean -it is what comes out of his mouth. In other words, it is a man's words that can either build up or tear down. The Bible also talks about how we are not to take part in unwholesome talk -cussing would be a part of this.

I noticed that you mention the word "addictions" when mentioning these things. Assuming these things are addictive or addicting to people, does this imply that they are being "enslaved" by these things?

In which case, Romans mentions, quite repeatedly, that we are no longer slaves to sin and do not live in the flesh. Rather, we live in the Spirit and are alive in Christ. I don't know, though -just an observation. :)

[New_Wineskin]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved? Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

The title of the thread was "Obedience" . And yet , obedience is not mentioned in the OP . How was the OP about obedience ? Why do you think that not doing those things mentioned earns salvation ?


Edited to add : I noticed that the author did mention that they didn't know how to title the thread . Instead of wiping out my posts I will let them stay in case it matters .

[AJ]

The title of the thread was "Obedience" . And yet , obedience is not mentioned in the OP . How was the OP about obedience ? Why do you think that not doing those things mentioned earns salvation ?I believe the intent of the OP was that if someone is saved and yet does not turn away from their sins... Are they truly saved?

My belief is that we are all sinful creatures... And salvation does not mean we will not longer be tempted or struggle with sin. I personally believe that repentance involves a change or striving to change... However we can still slip up and fall back into sinful patterns. Recognizing the behavior, habit, addiction or act as sinful and striving to change is key.

My personal belief is that once save, always saved... A person can willingfully and purposefully give up their salvation, however struggling with sin will not cause it to be lost.

Can someone lose their salvation by thinking a sinful thought? Committing a sin? I say no... I have confidence that my salvation is secure.

Ultimately, none of us are God though... So someone else's salvation is not an issue that we can confidently discuss. It is a personal matter between each person and the Lord.

God Bless!
AJ

[New_Wineskin]

I believe the intent of the OP was that if someone is saved and yet does not turn away from their sins... Are they truly saved?


Ok . But , that would depend on the definition of "sin" . The person put an emphasis on "obedience" in the topic . Obedience to who or what ? - Not mentioned in the OP . It certainly looks like a question of salvation based on obeying the Law . Yet , the Law says that salvation is not by obeying it . So , to that question , I say that salvation is not contingent on the items that they mentioned . The items were not even about the Scriptures since they were about consumption . And , if one was to go by the Law , the Law says that it isn't what goes into a person that makes them unclean but what comes out of them .



My belief is that we are all sinful creatures... And salvation does not mean we will not longer be tempted or struggle with sin. I personally believe that repentance involves a change or striving to change... However we can still slip up and fall back into sinful patterns. Recognizing the behavior, habit, addiction or act as sinful and striving to change is key.

My personal belief is that once save, always saved... A person can willingfully and purposefully give up their salvation, however struggling with sin will not cause it to be lost.

Can someone lose their salvation by thinking a sinful thought? Committing a sin? I say no... I have confidence that my salvation is secure.

Ultimately, none of us are God though... So someone else's salvation is not an issue that we can confidently discuss. It is a personal matter between each person and the Lord.

God Bless!
AJ

Ok . I disagree with a little here and a little there with that but I understand from where you are coming . A lot of times people don't like the fact that others are doing things . Instead of minding their own business , they look at what others are doing . The parable concerning the one hiring laborers comes to mind . Instead of looking to what their relationship with the Lord , people are looking to see what relationship others are having with the Lord to see if they had a better or worse deal even though they already agreed to the terms for themselves .

Edited to add : I noticed that the author did mention that they didn't know how to title the thread . Instead of wiping out my posts I will let them stay in case it matters .

[AJ]

Your reply about minding your own business does apply, to some extent... However if you are talking about one of the brothers or sisters who are members of your church that are living a sinful life... Then we do have a responsibility to lovingly approach them and help them confront their sin. That is scripture based, in 1 Cor 5... And there are many other OT and NT passages that speak of rebuking sin in our brothers and sisters.

Of course this course this should not be done pridefully... or in a way to make yourself look "better" or "worse", etc... It should be done as an act of love and concern for the brother or sister in your church family.

God Bless!
AJ

[New_Wineskin]

Your reply about minding your own business does apply, to some extent... However if you are talking about one of the brothers or sisters who are members of your church that are living a sinful life... Then we do have a responsibility to lovingly approach them and help them confront their sin. That is scripture based, in 1 Cor 5... And there are many other OT and NT passages that speak of rebuking sin in our brothers and sisters.


I would agree as long as the group has a written policy on confrontations which would include how they define "sin" and how the confrontation would proceed . Without an agreement and understanding by all parties involved , it could easily go back to being busybodies .



Of course this course this should not be done pridefully... or in a way to make yourself look "better" or "worse", etc... It should be done as an act of love and concern for the brother or sister in your church family.

God Bless!
AJ Complete agreement .

[AJ]

I agree... I would consider the items listed in 1 Cor 5 as a pretty good list of sins to start with. ;)

(1 Cor 15 9-13)

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

[New_Wineskin]

I agree... I would consider the items listed in 1 Cor 5 as a pretty good list of sins to start with. ;)
Yeah . But , there are people who will make rather broad definitions with those . Some would call those who drink one beer at the end of a work period a "drunkard" .

And , doesn't that passage talk about expelling them - not confronting them ? That really isn't much of a threat with the idea that there are usually a few "churches" to choose from in an area ( if one thought that they had to be a part of a group ) . A group could say , "Get out !" and the person could say , "See ya !" and go the group across the street and give their money to that group .

[AJ]

Yes... It does say to expel them, but most interput that to be only after you have exhausted everything that you can do as a church body and the person refuses to change. Expelling a member should not even be in the minds of the members... Not until WAY down the line.

I agree with you that the church leadership has a responsibility to decide when a church member should be approached. It should not be handled by the sewing club or the local gossip group. :) Matters of this nature are very sensitive and should be handled carefully, loving way... I believe that this should be taken care of by the pastor and several other leaders in the church....

Everything should be done out of love and concern for the church member. And ultimately for the good of the church. The Bible is clear that living a life of sin (defined as you will) is not something that should be permitted in church fellowship... Again, I am not saying that struggling with a sin is something that should result in you being removed from the church... However when someone starts accepting their sinful behavior (sexual immorality, for example) as being "ok" becuase of the political correct climate of the modern church... Or not striving to change... For whatever reason... Then they need the guidance of the church leaders and family.

We are all sinners... Salvation does not end temptation... We will all have our stumbling blocks and areas that we struggle with. Church should be the place that we are surrounded by fellow Christians who are doing their best to live their life as instructed by the Word of God... When someone stops doing that, we have a responsibility to help them, support them with the ultimate goal of helping them overcome their sin problem.

AJ

[Telrunya]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved?

I too am of the belief of once saved always saved. I also believe what is sin for me IE tobacco may not be sin for you. I do believe we have the obligation to approach or brother who may be falling into the trap of addiction. Jesus was clear about how to do this. Pulling the log out of your own eye first. In other words don't go to your brother or sister and condemn them for their sin but talk to them lovingly as you yourself have sinned.


Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

I believe there are guidances for this as well. The apostle Paul tells us not to cause or brother to stumble by the food we eat. If you are not addicted to alcohol as an example but one of your friends is, then you can have a beer in the privacy of your home but it would be a sin for you to have one when you and your friend go out to dinner because you would be tempting him.

[StevenL]

I believe if we could ever get a Scriptural view of what salvation really is in its fullness, we'd have a better idea of how to deal with the moral lapses of "saved" people.

Salvation is not a one-time, "poof- you're saved", walk-down-shake-the-preacher's-hand, event. Completed salvation takes place over the course of a person's life.

So yes, a person who loves God and is being saved can, at some season of his or her life, be a partaker of the listed crimes in the OP and still be "saved." If they are really a child of God, they won't continue in their crimes...they will be "saved." Salvation is not just about "going to heaven", you know.

:)

[daverain]

.


In my opinion (only because it's true),


One CAN by 'habit' (and by 'the habit of others' -rubbing off- on us), say the Lord's name in vain.

(And even think it.)

(God forgive us all.)


I SEE this happening in people who DON'T want to (=say Jesus' -Or another of God's Names- (YHWH, The Father, etc.) in Vain.


I FEEL this is WHY Jesus says: "Anything said against the Son Of Man will be forgiven."


Thank God.


However...

'Blaspheme of the Holy-Ghost' (which was what THE PHARISEES did, by attributing the works of Satan to the works of God, -that Jesus performed,)

THAT, Will NOT be forgiven (= -THOSE- PHARISESS will NOT be forgiven), "either in this age, or the age to come."


(Oh Caiaphas, thou hast wrought evil, from thy source.

Yet -GOD- hath wrought GOODNESS,

of this badness, to which thou belongest.)



(Please note: I'm sorry. I haven't read this entire thread yet, and subjects MAY have already been dealt with (I felt COMPELLED to answer, right away).


-Peace in Christ.


.

[Tavita]

I can only speak from experience. I quit smoking six months after becoming a christian. That was many moons ago. Four years later, while going through trial, I took it up again and couldn't get rid of it for another twelve years. Then in accordance with the cry of my heart for deliverance, God delivered me, totally. In all that time I can honestly say, I was saved and had a relationship with my Father. I grew as a christian, maybe not in that area, but others. I think the condemnation that comes with such things is far worse than the 'habit' itself.

[Telrunya]

First, the devil hides behind lies, deception and darkness. So let's take a minute and expose some hiding places...

Lie #1: Only perverted and sick people are addicted to pornography (substitute any addiction here)...

The Truth: People addicted to pornography(or any addiction) are men as well as women who love their families, deacons in the church, elders, pastors of churches, or your next door neighbor. They could even be your children and since you are reading this, possibly you.

Lie #2: There can't be any other Christians that have the sick, perverted kinds of thoughts that I deal with every day. If I were truly a Christian, I wouldn't have this problem.

The Truth: Millions of people stay bound behind that lie every day.

Lie #3: If I really loved Jesus like I should, I wouldn't have the desire to look at pornography (any addiction)

The Truth: The word "tempt" means to arouse desire in. If Jesus was tempted in every way, yet without sin, this would have to mean that at some point in His life, the desire to lust after a woman hit Him. Yes, Jesus dealt with lustful thoughts, too! WHEW!! That was hard to say, but if the whole bible is true, Hebrews 4:15 says. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknessess, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are yet was without sin.

So it must be possible for a lustful thought to come and not sin, because Jesus was tempted in this way, but he knew how to stop it before it became sin. See Jesus was the first person since Adam who was alive in the spirit so he had the power to say no to sin. After he gave us a model on how to give no room for sin, He went to the cross in order that we might be alive in the spirit also and be able to handle temptation in the same way. Without sin.

Lie #4: I must be the only one in my church with this problem.

The Truth: We may never know how many people in the church are bound by pornography (or any other addiction) because we constantly teach the evils of it, but never how to get free from it. Which only drives the secret deeper and deeper. I am convinced that it is more than we could ever guess.



For years as a Christian, I hid behind every one of those lies. I knew that pornography(substitute any addicition here) was wrong, but I just couldn't seem to get away from it. Every day I would get up, start with a clean slate, intending to have stopped for good, then it would happen. From out of nowhere, that first horrible, lustful thought would hit and I would not even be looking at anything pornographic to start it. Well, I would quickly ask for forgiveness and as soon as I could get it out of my mouth - wham! - there was another one. I would go back and forth several times... sometimes all day: forgiveness - thought - forgiveness - thought. Then finally, I would just give in. In hopes of maybe starting fresh again tomorrow. Hoping that maybe tomorrow would be the day that I would overcome it once and for all. then the next day would come only to be the same routine again: lustful thought - ask for forgiveness, lustful thought - ask for forgiveness, thought-forgiveness, thought - forgiveness. Finally give in and hope for a better day tomorrow. I can't tell you how many times that I went to the altar and gave it all to God, only to get back to my seat and be hit again with one of those thoughts again and then the routine would start all over. Thought - forgiveness, thought - forgiveness.... etc..

Many nights I stayed up late just so everyone else would go to sleep so that I could watch something on television or sign on to the Internet and pull up anything I wanted to look at. It called me day and night like a drug. I couldn't wait to see the next picture. I hated myself for it and wanted to stop, but I couldn't. I just had to have one more look.

Before the Internet, at least there was the shame of having to buy it or go to an adult bookstore. But now, it was right at my fingertips, pumped straight into my living room through the computer. Anything I could ever dream of.

Does it sound like I've been watching you or know what you think? Well, I haven't been watching you, but I do know how the devil works and he pulls the same tricks on everyone.

So many times we are taught what sin is, but it's one thing to know that pornography is a sin. It is a whole other subject to know how to stop it. I can sit here and tell you all day long the evils of pornography, how it destroys marriages and breaks up homes, but unless I tell you how to stop, I have done nothing but bring guilt and condemnation on you. John 3:17 says that God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Romans 8:3 says that Jesus condemned the sin in sinful man.

One of the greatest quotes I have ever read was this: "The reason so many Christians are not enjoying the freedom which is their inheritance in Christ is because they do not understand the complete and dramatic change which occurred in them the moment they trusted Him for their salvation."

If you will take a few moments and read the rest of this, I fully believe that the Word of God will free you more than you ever dreamed possible.

Lord, I pray that your Word will come to life in this person and that any hindrances that try to come against them will be bound in Jesus Name.



I would like to start with a word picture that I hope will stay with you all the way through this article, so please read it carefully.

You are in your yard and a dog comes up and bites you. At this point, you can do one of two things:

First option - As soon as the dog bites you, kick him and then go call the dogcatcher to came and take him away.

Second option - As soon as the dog bites you, kick yourself and run back into the house. Then every day or so, try to go back out, get bit again, kick yourself, then run back in and blame yourself for getting bit.

Without question, I would choose the first option every time.

Believe it or not though, most Christians will choose the second option when it comes to how they live their lives as a Christian. Let me show you how and I will give you some scriptures later so get your Bible.

You are driving down the road and all of a sudden, the most horrible, lustful thought goes through your mind. At this point again you have two options.

First Option: You can immediately ask for forgiveness, feel terrible and promise God that you will never do it again only to have the same thought go through your mind five minutes later. At which point, you ask for forgiveness, feel terrible, and promise God that you will try not to do it again only to have it happen again. At this point, you are probably thinking "what's the use? it will just happen again...I should just give in to it". And so then you do. Then after you have given in, you start having thoughts like "you are not a Christian! If you were, you wouldn't have thoughts like that. How can God ever forgive you? You have been having the same thoughts and doing the same things for ten years!" Sound familiar? Sadly enough, this is the cycle that most Christians stay in. If you will read Romans 7:14-25, you will notice that Paul explains the same problem.

[Telrunya]

Now let me show you through scripture how to break the cycle...

I will break it down and give you scriptures to back it up.

Once again, you are driving down the road and along comes the same horrible thought.

Option #2: Now, let's stop here for a minute. First of all, as soon as the thought comes, realize that this is not sin. Matthew 4:1 says that Jesus was tempted. The definition for tempted is "to arouse desire in". Jesus was tempted. These would come as thoughts and they were things that were desirable to Jesus. In Matthew 4, the devil probably did not come up to Jesus with a pitchfork and horns and say, "Throw yourself off of the highest point of the temple. Your angels will save you! They won't let you strike your foot against a stone!" That would have been way too obvious. What would have been the temptation there? If you knew it was the devil, you sure wouldn't do it! You would say, "No way, you are the devil!"

What probably happened was that these thoughts would come to His mind: "If you threw yourself down, that would show everyone that you ARE the real Messiah when the angels come to save you." Notice how He handled it. He didn't say, "Oh, God forgive me for that evil thought". No! He spoke the Word of God at it, because no sin had taken place yet. He said it is written "do not put the Lord your God to the test." Jesus knew where the thought came from and how to handle it. Also notice that the thoughts came three times but after 3 times of Jesus speaking the word at it, VS 11. says "The devil left Him".

Jesus could have just felt guilty for the thought, but he knew that guilt would not make it go away. He knew it would take standing up to it and speaking the word. See Jesus knew that the desire was not sin on hes part, but the devil trying to draw him away. Look at James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then after desire has concieved, it gives birth to sin. See, the desire was not the sin. It does not become sin until it drags you away and you followed the desire. Temptation which is something desireable to you, is not the sin. Its only after you give into it that it becomes sin.

Just because a beautiful woman walks by and a horrible thought goes through your mind that is very desirable does not mean that you have sinned yet. It is what you do with the thought. Most people will think that they have sinned and at this point, and ask for forgiveness, feel terrible and promise not to do it again.

Remember the dog story from the beginning of this article. As soon as the thought came in, if all you did was ask for forgiveness, feel bad about it, and promise not to do it again, all that happened was this: a dog came in your yard uninvited, bit you, and you beat yourself up and ran back in the house. Now let us identify the dog, learn how to kick him, and then have the dog catcher take him off.



You were created as a three part being. You have a "physical body" that everyone sees and touches. You have a "soul" which is your mind, will, and emotions. Then you have a "spirit", which is where the Holy Spirit comes to live at salvation.

Before salvation, your spirit is dead. Read Romans 5:12. Death came to all men through sin. Before salvation, you are controlled only by the sin nature which lives in your soul (the mind, will, and emotions). You can try to be as good as you can, but eventually you will give in to the it. You have no power to resist it. Romans 8:7 says "The sinful mind is hostile to God, it does not submit to God's law nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God" See, it is impossible. You couldn't even submit to Gods law if you wanted to. You were controlled by the sinful nature.

Verse 8 is not talking about a believer. Read verse 9. It says "Your however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit. I alway thought that because I struggled with sin, I could not please God. I thought that I was controlled by it so I must not be able to please him. I however, was not controlled by it. To control something means that you can make it do something. The only reason that sin had any control over me was because I let it. If I would have said no. It would have left. I was letting it reign in my body like Romans 6:12 says not to do. It was a choice on my part and not because I was controlled by it.



Here is what happens at salvation. You ask Jesus to come into your heart and immediately your spirit comes to life with the glorious power of Jesus Christ. He now lives in you and you are on your way to heaven. Unfortunately, this is as far as most Christians get and they lead a powerless, defeated Christian life.

Let me show you what happened when you asked Jesus to come into your heart. Colossians 2:13-15 says, "when you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins having canceled the written code with its regulations, that was against us, at that stood opposed to us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross." Hallelujah!!! But it doesn't stop there. Verse 15 is where victory in this life is. It says, "and having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross"

Now, let us look up some of the words used in verse 15. "He disarmed the powers and authorities." 'Disarm' means to take away weapons, to deprive the ability to hurt, make harmless. "to make a public spectacle of them" to make a spectacle of something means to make it look foolish in public. And last, but not least, "triumphing over them". 'Triumph' means to gain victory or success, win mastery.

So what happened was, God took away the devil's weapons, making him harmless. He made him look foolish and gave you the victory. Well, I know that you may be thinking, "that's great, but I still don't have the victory." I'm going to show you that you do have it! You have just been told by the devil that you do not!



O.K., here is how it is. Before you were saved, you were a three part being - body, soul, and spirit. The only problem was that only your body and soul functioned. Your spirit was not alive. What that means is, you were basically made up of what people saw and your soul. This is where your mind, will, and emotions live, which is where your thoughts are. What you thought is what you were and that is it.

Once again, here's what happened after salvation. When you asked Jesus into your heart, your spirit, at that very moment, came alive. You were born again. You became a new creature in Christ. The real you now became your spirit man, which will live forever. Go back and read Colossians 2:13-15 again and noticed what happened. "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." This is where your spirit came to life. At the same time, this happened: In verse 15, God also disarmed all of the powers of the devil and made a public spectacle of them. What this means is, where you once were at the mercy of your sin nature, because that is who you were, you had no way to resist it. You were it's slave. Now your spirit is alive and that is the new you! The part that will live forever. Romans 6:6 says "for we know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin."

Let us look at Romans 8:10. It says that if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. See, this is the reason that the body that we live in now could never stand before God. Just because you were saved did not mean that your old sin nature packed up and left. This is what so few Christians understand. They have the sin nature (the old man) confused with their spirit (the new man). The reason that this body could never stand before God is because the old sin nature still lives there, and it makes it's presence know in the form of sinful thoughts.

Here is the exciting part. Since I became a Christian, I constantly felt like a horrible person because of all the terrible thoughts that went on in my mind. But what this means is that is just the old sin nature that continues to try to make me think he is in control and is the real me. Until salvation, I was only the sum of my thoughts. My thoughts were who I was. You could not separate the two because all I was was a body and soul. My spirit was not yet alive.

When I was born again, I became a new creature. I am now a spirit that will live forever in heaven. The daily problem that I have now is that I still live in a human body and the old sin nature still lives there. The great thing is, I don't have to do what it says anymore. Romans 6:12 says "therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires." See it says nothing about you being evil. It says do not obey "its" evil desires. "Its" implys something other you. There is another entity being talked about here. The Sin nature. It also does not say that you will not have evil desires. Which are in the form of some of those horrible thoughts you have. It says "do not let them reign in your mortal body so that you obey them". As soon as the thought comes, recognize where it came from. If it is sinful, you automatically know that it came from the old sin nature. At this point, you have not sinned.

It is now up to you as far as what to do with it. You can obey it, or you can say, "Wait a minute! That did not come from my spirit which is alive through Christ. It must be my sin nature! How dare you put that thought in my mind!" At this point, 2 Corinthians 10:5 comes in very handy. "Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." I say it something like this: "Lord, the sin nature is back. Right now I cast it down and bring it into captivity to the obedience of you." Sometimes I will even say, "Bless the Lord, O my soul and all that is within me, bless His Holy Name" just to make that sin nature not want to come back.

I am at the point now that it infuriates me when an evil thought comes through my mind. I am a child of the Most High God! How dare that sin nature put those kinds of thoughts in my mind?!? For years as a Christian, I thought that I was the worst Christian ever and I thought that I would never lead a victorious life. I thought that it was because I was some kind of a perverted, sick minded person that I had such horrible thoughts. Now I know that it is because the devil is a perverted, sick minded devil and that those thoughts are straight from him. I just have to put him back in his place.

It makes Romans 7:21-25 and 8: 1-4 make sense. Paul says in 7:22 "for in my inner being (spirit), I delight in God's law, but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging ear against the law of my mind." This is why you want to be all that you can be for Jesus, but you struggle with bad thoughts. It is a war against your mind.



Let me tell you something that will really make you mad. Remember how we talked about the dog biting you at the beginning? Well, before salvation, the dog had teeth and claws. After salvation, he has been disarmed. He has no teeth or claws. Not only have we been feeling bad about ourselves and living a defeated life, bound by the power of sin that really had no power over us, but we have been running from something harmless.

[Telrunya]

The only degree of power that sin can have over you as a Christian is the degree that the devil can fool you into thinking he is in control. If he can make you think he is big and unbeatable, he will be big and unbeatable because he has you fighting yourself. All he has to do is put one bad thought in your mind and then immediately you will turn it on yourself. Let's say for instance, he runs a horrible lustful thought through your mind. Right away, the first thing that will come up in you is "That's a sin, so I must be in sin". What just happened? The devil planted a sinful thought in your mind and you turned around and blamed yourself for it. It was the Holy spirit that let you know it was a sinful thought so that you would recognize it was from your sin nature and that it needed to be brought back into captivity to Christ.

Read Romans 7:7-13 "Did that which is good then become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin."

He is talking about the law and the commandments. You know when a sinful thought comes, because it will rise up out of your spirit, but God did not intend on that to be a guilt producer. Paul said "Did that which is good become death to me?" Did God give commandments to condemn you and make you feel guilty? No! It is just like Paul said. the law is so that sin might be recognized as sin. It is so that you will know the sin nature is trying to take control.

Now, going back to the lustful thought that just came through your mind as soon as it came. You knew immediately it was sin before any guilt or doing anything else. Your response should have been, "Lust is sin so obviously that did not come from my spirit. It must be that old sin nature again. Lord, I submit my whole being to you, body, soul and spirit and I bring into captivity that thought to the obedience of Christ. I will bless the Lord, O my soul and all that is within me will bless your Holy Name." Now you don't have to make those exact words into a law. But I promise you, it will not take very many times of that and the sin nature that has been harassing you will get sick of blessing the Lord and you will be free! Do not think that he will not try to come back because he will. Just keep him under control. You see, if he can keep you blaming yourself for every thought that goes through your mind, you will stay defeated because the real problem is never dealt with. The problem is not you. 2 Corinthians 10:3 says "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war against the flesh" and Ephesians 6:12 says "for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world and against spiritual wickedness in high places" The problem is with the devil.

The devil has had Christians warring against their flesh when the war is against him. It is impossible to win a battle when you are helping the enemy, and this is the reason that so many Christians live defeated lives.




Now to stop any excesses on the other side...


Some might say, "That means that I can just do anything because it is just my sin nature and not the real me." This must have come up because Paul dealt with it too. He said "do not let sin reign in your mortal body." The whole reason for the death on the cross was to defeat sin. Are you responsible for every thought that goes through your mind? Definitely not. Are you responsible for what you do with it? Definitely yes! Am I saying that you will not make mistakes? No. But now know where the battle lines are and who the battle is with. The battle was won on the cross. Your job is to enforce it.

Now you finally know where all of those thoughts come from. They come from the old sin nature and not you. Instead of getting down on yourself, get down on him. Force that sin nature to obey Christ and do like Paul says in Romans 6:12: "do not let it reign anymore" It has no right to. That is one reason that it infuriates me when thoughts like that go through my mind. How dare him put those sorts of thoughts in my mind! Also, now that you know where the thoughts are coming from, find someone else who understands this to be an accountability partner. Make sure that they fully understand about the sin nature first. Personally, I made myself accountable to my wife because she understands about the sin nature and that it where the thoughts come from and that it does not reflect on her. I do caution you. Pray about who you want to be accountable to before telling them everything. What the accountability partner does is it gives you ammunition on both sides. See, the devil can only operate in darkness. Now that you know the thoughts are from him, you can tell him "no, I won't have those kinds of thoughts". Also, if you have given your accountability partner the right to ask you anytime if you have been looking at any pornography(or any other addiction) it is really not that hard at all to tell the sin nature "no".

On last thing. Now that you know about the sin nature, what it is, and how to deal with it. Read the following scriptures and they will come to life to you now. I love you and hope to hear from you. Scriptures to study: Romans 6, Romans 7:4-25, Romans 8:1-17, Romans 8:37-39, Galatians 2:17-21, Galatians 5:1, Galatians 5:13, Galatians 5:16-26, Galatians 6:7-8, Colossians 2:9-15, Ephesians 2:1-10, Ephesians 3:14-21, Ephesians 6:10-18, 2 Corintians 3:17, 2 Corintians 10:3-5........

[AJ]

Telrunya... Thank you for those posts! There is so much wonderful information contained in them. :thumbsup:

God Bless you!

:amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:

[muffler dragon]

Personally, I enjoy a good beer or alcoholic beverage once in a while. And my new interest has been in smoking a hookah. I find it to be very pleasant. Neither situation is habitual for me.

I feel that my salvation is still in the hands of G-d.

[MG]

I can see lustful thoughts being a tough one to overcome. And I can see it's sinful nature...but is drinking a beer at a BBQ on the same level? I am not trying to be funny, really, I am just curious? Is it a sin to smoke cigarettes, say cuss words when you stump your little toe, drink a beer at the company picnic, or a few glasses of wine on your cruise, etc?

I have read those verses at length many times. The struggle with the 2 natures is something that I deal with DAILY. I thank you for your insight Telrunya.

~MG

[MG]

Personally, I enjoy a good beer or alcoholic beverage once in a while. And my new interest has been in smoking a hookah. I find it to be very pleasant. Neither situation is habitual for me.

I feel that my salvation is still in the hands of G-d.

:doh: OUT!

[Snow Angel]

I think It Said all things in moderation,So Yes I think a Christian can, Drink a beer,or
gamble, or smoke once in a while,but if you have an addictions that's a different story
then you would need help. :angel:

[AJ]

I think It Said all things in moderation,So Yes I think a Christian can, Drink a beer,or
gamble, or smoke once in a while,but if you have an addictions that's a different story
then you would need help. :angel:I feel the same way... All things in moderation.

[Telrunya]

I can see lustful thoughts being a tough one to overcome. And I can see it's sinful nature...but is drinking a beer at a BBQ on the same level? I am not trying to be funny, really, I am just curious? Is it a sin to smoke cigarettes, say cuss words when you stump your little toe, drink a beer at the company picnic, or a few glasses of wine on your cruise, etc?

I have read those verses at length many times. The struggle with the 2 natures is something that I deal with DAILY. I thank you for your insight Telrunya.

~MG

Interestingly no sin is any worse than any others. We flawed humans tend to color things in shades of gray but sin is something that separates us from God. With him it is starkly black and white. Thankfully Jesus came along and made us white. He gave us that victory, we just need to claim it.

[StevenL]

Quit struggling and reckon yourself DEAD. Dead men can't struggle. :) Romans 6:11. This "reckoning" is a very powerful spiritual practice. Learn what it means and how to do it and you'll be on the road to realizing the Kingdom of God.

Just a word of encouragement.

[muffler dragon]

:doh: OUT!
Oh, my statement bothers you? That's simply too bad.

Oh, btw, I don't attend a church. I left regular church attendance about 3.5 years ago. My interest lies in Judaism. I have found that a great number of churches are hypocritically legalistic. Now, which of my paragraphs bothers you more?

[muffler dragon]

I think It Said all things in moderation,So Yes I think a Christian can, Drink a beer,or
gamble, or smoke once in a while,but if you have an addictions that's a different story
then you would need help. :angel:
I would completely agree. Good post.

[MG]

Quit struggling and reckon yourself DEAD. Dead men can't struggle. :) Romans 6:11. This "reckoning" is a very powerful spiritual practice. Learn what it means and how to do it and you'll be on the road to realizing the Kingdom of God.

Just a word of encouragement.

Thank you Steven :)

It is a tough issue for me. I grew up in a very legalistic church that would make anyone cringe. I think a lot of Christians today would fess up to honing the same beliefs that there are certain sins that outweigh others. But, until recently, I felt that scripture had led me to believe that God is not a respecter of persons, nor sin. Sin is sin. I smoke. Sometimes 10 a day. Sometimes 1. Sometimes none. I drink. Sometimes 1 beer. Sometimes none all year, and sometimes I can down three in a row while watching Monday night football. I cuss sometimes. Especially when I slice my finger while cutting up an onion. All these things, I know Jesus would not do :) And a co-worker whom happens to be a preacher's son, said that I was not truly saved if I lived day to day doing these things. And just the way he said this to me, made me stop and doubt my salvation. I love the Lord with all of my heart and all of my soul! I absolutely am petrified to think that I may not be a child of God. Terrified.
I just wanted to hear your thoughts and wisdom. I feel like I am in a sea of heathens and all of my brothers and sisters are on the shore! I miss my church family deeply and have not been able to plant myself where I can be "fed". Thank you all.:wave:

[MG]

Oh, my statement bothers you? That's simply too bad.

Oh, btw, I don't attend a church. I left regular church attendance about 3.5 years ago. My interest lies in Judaism. I have found that a great number of churches are hypocritically legalistic. Now, which of my paragraphs bothers you more?

none of them. thought you were trying to be funny.

[muffler dragon]

none of them. thought you were trying to be funny.
Nope. Completely serious.

Sorry for misunderstanding your post/intention.

[9-iron]

Just ignore MD, he is a complete outcast and has lost all sense of good and evil.....

[muffler dragon]

Just ignore MD, he is a complete outcast and has lost all sense of good and evil.....
What?

Give me at least a smiley face to know you're joking... sheesh.

:D












or maybe you're not.

[9-iron]

What about 1/2 a smiley face......;)

[muffler dragon]

What about 1/2 a smiley face......;)
To steal a southernism from the locals that I work with:

well dang gone.

[Jim Woodell]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved? Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

This is a good question and a thought provoking topic to consider. Personally, I think addictions are difficult, if not impossible, to understand by people who do not have the addiction. Many times we will judge the behavior of others while we are blind to our own sin. (Romans 2:1)

To answer your question as I understand it being asked, "Can a person be TRULY saved while doing things that are contrary to God's will?" If not, we are all in trouble. Scripture is clear, "There is none righteous, no not ONE!" (Rom. 3:10)

Romans 5 and 6 present an excellent study on this question. Romans 5:20 states, "And the Law came in that transgression might indrease; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more." The law was like a magnifying glass to show sin to be sin, but it had no power to deliver from sin, so God sent Jesus, the personification of his grace (1 Cor. 1:30-31) to deliver us from ourselves.

Romans 6, the folks were asking, "If God's grace is our salvation, then why not accept the grace of God and live as we choose??" That is give in to the sin that entices us. Paul's response was, "May it never be!" (6:2). The question that follows is, "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" How can a person who has died still live? Repentance is the death spoken of here. That is a change of will regarding how we are going to live. Will you live for God or live for self??

He goes on to urge folks to "consider themselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." (6:11) Don't let sin reign in your mortal body and don't go on presenting the members of your body to sin to serve sin. (6:12-13) But then look at Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace." With God's marvelous plan, as long as I am presenting myself to God to serve Him, his grace will prevent sin from being my mater. Will I stumble. You bet. Will I give in to sin and serve sin? I hope not. If I serve sin I am in trouble (6:16).

HOpe this helps some.

[theCreator'schild]

I would like to say that I found Telrunya's posts to be quite interesting and I agree with what he had to say.

I do think that it is common for us Christian's to struggle with sin, we are only human, and as was stated Jesus himself was tempted. He of course, did not give in to it.

As far as alcohol, smoking, etc...I personally do not think that you will go to Hell for these mentioned providing you've been saved. The Holy Spirit will convict you to change at some point in your life. When you are first saved, most of us don't automatically stop every sin we've ever participated in. Yes, somethings we may know right away are wrong, but not everything. That, like I said, is what the Holy Spirirt's presence is for. He is our convictor, comforter, etc...

By the way, I'm new and don't wish step on toes, but I really did want to share my thoughts and also tell y'all that I enjoyed reading the posts on this topic. Blessings to you! :wave:

[theCreator'schild]

:wave: Hi Jim! I didn't see your post before I posted mine, we must have been writing at the same time. I like your post as well! And I agree with it! Thanks for those thoughts.

Peace and Blessings!

[Jim Woodell]

:wave: Hi Jim! I didn't see your post before I posted mine, we must have been writing at the same time. I like your post as well! And I agree with it! Thanks for those thoughts.

Peace and Blessings!

Thank you for your kind words, and hi :wave: back to you.

Jim

[Jim Woodell]

Personally, I enjoy a good beer or alcoholic beverage once in a while. And my new interest has been in smoking a hookah. I find it to be very pleasant. Neither situation is habitual for me.

I feel that my salvation is still in the hands of G-d.

Muffler Dragon, your muffler is draggin on this post!

[daverain]

.

Although drunkeness is a sin,

jesus made wine.

Therefore, a 'little wine' may indeed be fine.

(As far as the 'hooka' goes... No comment on something that MAY be 'not allowed' depending on WHERE one lives.)


.

[Reformationist]

I do not know how else to title this topic. I would like to hear others' views on Christians who have addictions such as gambling,smoking, drinking, cussing, etc. Do you think people who do things of this nature are not truly saved? Or aside from an addiction, just leisurely doing the above named things. Having a beer during dinner per se. What are your thoughts?

True Christians suffer from many of the same problems as non-believers. I cannot see why we should doubt someone's salvation simply because they struggle with certain addictions. We could conceivably claim that their faith is weak but not that they are not saved. We are not saved because of refraining from such things so doing them doesn't indicate a lack of salvation. All Christians should have, at the very least, a desire to have all areas of their life brought into conformity. This is the process of sanctification. Our salvation is based solely on the work of Christ on our behalf and the graciousness of God in imputing His righteousness to us. Our works are not the basis for our salvation. With that said, there should be a progressive change in our behavior when we are made a child of God. The thing that we must do is to understand that the Lord is working in the lives of His children in different ways and at different rates. We are not qualified to judge another's salvation for it is of the Lord.

God bless

[MG]

By the way, I'm new and don't wish step on toes, but I really did want to share my thoughts and also tell y'all that I enjoyed reading the posts on this topic. Blessings to you! :wave:

Welcome! :wave: And thank you for your thoughts :)

Thank you all. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your posts. I guess what I am lacking, is faith huh? I know I am saved by grace, and I am fully consumed by the Holy Spirit....I guess it is by His conviction that I am beginning to feel the weight of my guilt in certain areas. SUBMISSION. That is what is playing over and over in my heart. It has come time for me to be weaned off the spiritual milk, and begin spritual table food :) . I feel as if my season has arrived.

When I was brand new in Christ, my dearest friend told me to imagine my whole being as many compartments. A compartment for every part of me that makes up the whole me if you will. Most, if not all babes in Christ will be selective in which compartments they crucify and hand over to God. Some areas, you just want to hold on to. Not because you are any "less of a christian", but that we are all born the same.... into sin.

It is a very good analogy for me. And, I love all of you for popping into this thread, because I am so desiring fellowship...... you have no idea..... I need more Godly people in my life.........as it is, there is not one....no not one.
:prayer:

[MG]

True Christians suffer from many of the same problems as non-believers. I cannot see why we should doubt someone's salvation simply because they struggle with certain addictions. We could conceivably claim that their faith is weak but not that they are not saved. We are not saved because of refraining from such things so doing them doesn't indicate a lack of salvation. All Christians should have, at the very least, a desire to have all areas of their life brought into conformity. This is the process of sanctification. Our salvation is based solely on the work of Christ on our behalf and the graciousness of God in imputing His righteousness to us. Our works are not the basis for our salvation. With that said, there should be a progressive change in our behavior when we are made a child of God. The thing that we must do is to understand that the Lord is working in the lives of His children in different ways and at different rates. We are not qualified to judge another's salvation for it is of the Lord.

God bless

:prayer: Well said. As always, your heart for the Lord moves me beyond words.

[muffler dragon]

Muffler Dragon, your muffler is draggin on this post!
What, pray tell, do you mean?

[Reformationist]

Welcome! :wave: And thank you for your thoughts :)

Thank you all. I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate your posts. I guess what I am lacking, is faith huh? I know I am saved by grace, and I am fully consumed by the Holy Spirit....I guess it is by His conviction that I am beginning to feel the weight of my guilt in certain areas. SUBMISSION. That is what is playing over and over in my heart. It has come time for me to be weaned off the spiritual milk, and begin spritual table food :) . I feel as if my season has arrived.

When I was brand new in Christ, my dearest friend told me to imagine my whole being as many compartments. A compartment for every part of me that makes up the whole me if you will. Most, if not all babes in Christ will be selective in which compartments they crucify and hand over to God. Some areas, you just want to hold on to. Not because you are any "less of a christian", but that we are all born the same.... into sin.

It is a very good analogy for me. And, I love all of you for popping into this thread, because I am so desiring fellowship...... you have no idea..... I need more Godly people in my life.........as it is, there is not one....no not one.
:prayer:

It sounds to me like you have a very good grasp and approach to the struggle that every Christian faces in their daily mortification of the sin that still resides in their flesh. You have a very good attitude that bears great witness to the work the Lord is doing in your life. My Pastor used to always say, "Don't shy away from guilt. It's your friend. It tells you when you've done something wrong." It seems to me that you are already facing the challange of putting off your old self and putting on the new child of God. You are an encouragement to us all. Remember, whenever your struggles seem to be overwhelming you it's probably because you are putting your focus on yourself rather than on the one who has born the penalty for your sins. Look to Him and know that you are never alone.

:prayer: Well said. As always, your heart for the Lord moves me beyond words.

Thank you. I am deeply humbled by your kind words. I pray that we may all see this MB as an opportunity for fellowship and learning and that we may build each other up in faith.

God bless

[AquaFINEa]

I think It Said all things in moderation,So Yes I think a Christian can, Drink a beer,or
gamble, or smoke once in a while,but if you have an addictions that's a different story
then you would need help.



I feel the same way... All things in moderation.

Just a thought -As Christians, we are to treat our body as a temple, as God's Word specifically instructs us to do so. However, when one is getting him or herself involved with a habit like smoking, how does this glorify God or show obedience to His commands in any way? Also, habitual behavior (and dare I say, habitual sin) suggests, as I'd stated in my initial post in this thread, that someone is not in control as they perhaps should be -because they are, in a sense, enslaved to this action. Again, we are not slaves to sin, anymore; rather, we are to live in the Spirit. By acknowledging that we are repeat offenders, in that we sin throughout our lives -as we are still imperfect beings- , that does not give any justification to anyone who knowingly does what they know in their heart and soul to be wrong. Again, although we are dead in sin, we are alive in Christ. And that victory is OURS made possible through the grace, mercy and love of our Lord Jesus Christ!

By the way, I thought that one could smoke tobacco with hookah pipes, not solely marijuana -perhaps I'm wrong about that.

[MG]

Just a thought -As Christians, we are to treat our body as a temple, as God's Word specifically instructs us to do so. However, when one is getting him or herself involved with a habit like smoking, how does this glorify God or show obedience to His commands in any way? Also, habitual behavior (and dare I say, habitual sin) suggests, as I'd stated in my initial post in this thread, that someone is not in control as they perhaps should be -because they are, in a sense, enslaved to this action. Again, we are not slaves to sin, anymore; rather, we are to live in the Spirit. By acknowledging that we are repeat offenders, in that we sin throughout our lives -as we are still imperfect beings- , that does not give any justification to anyone who knowingly does what they know in their heart and soul to be wrong. Again, although we are dead in sin, we are alive in Christ. And that victory is OURS made possible through the grace, mercy and love of our Lord Jesus Christ!

By the way, I thought that one could smoke tobacco with hookah pipes, not solely marijuana -perhaps I'm wrong about that.

Indeed. But what about envy, greed, lustful thoughts, malice, lies etc? Do not all of us fit into this group? We are justified though Faith alone, not by anything we do/do not do.........or am I mistaken in this line of thought? :sigh:

[Reformationist]

We are justified though Faith alone, not by anything we do/do not do.........or am I mistaken in this line of thought? :sigh:

Actually, we are justified by the works of Christ on our behalf, though faith is certainly the means by which we lay hold of His justifying righteousness. :)

God bless

[MG]

:wave: Hey Brother.


I have a question. I know I may sound like I am contradicting myself, or may be moving toward another subject, but, do you think it is the "believers" who are condemning the named things in this post? What I mean is this;

We are a light into darkness. Correct? If an unbeliever sees me puffing away on a cigarette, and then I minister to them, they are going to think one of two things....
A. Some Christian she is.
B. If God can love her, then what am I waiting for?

Do you agree? A perfect example for both sides of the coin is, I used to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. The Lord laid (HEAVILY) upon my heart to guide young, frantic girls to the love of Christ. And save their unborn in the process. I was BUILT by God exactly for this ministry. I am nearly 30 and EVERY DAY I get asked how old I am! I look like a teen, which helps me get on the same level with these girls. I look just like they do. I am just as human as they are. As a child, I went through more things that I care to mention on this board. And, although controversial, I KNOW without a doubt, the Lord accepted those trials for me, to prepare me for this ministry and bring glory to His name! Those girls needed to hear .....'me too'.
I ended up leaving the ministry behind, because #1 I moved. But #2, I do not feel I give way to His glory by doing some of the things I do. If I am double minded how can I minister? My pastor used to tell me that I need NOT wait on becoming perfect before I step into my soldier shoes. :)

I know that being disobediant will not leave me to the pit, but does being disobediant hinder the calling? Why are believers the 1st to condemn their brothers and sisters?

:sigh: rambling gets me no where

[daverain]

[/i]


By the way, I thought that one could smoke tobacco with hookah pipes, not solely marijuana -perhaps I'm wrong about that.




I would WARN anyone to NEVER use tobacco.


It is an extremely addictive (one gets sick from withdrawl) and dangerous toxin.,

even though legal,

it IS very hard to quit.

(and tastes gross).


As for the 'other'...



"No-Comment": on something that

MIGHT

be:

'not allowed',

depending on where one lives in the world.





Peace in Christ.



.

[Reformationist]

:wave: Hey Brother.

Hey sis. :wave: By the way, I tried to check out your website but there were a bunch of broken links. Have you moved your personal site to a different host?

I have a question. I know I may sound like I am contradicting myself, or may be moving toward another subject, but, do you think it is the "believers" who are condemning the named things in this post? What I mean is this;

We are a light into darkness. Correct?

Supposed to be, yes.

If an unbeliever sees me puffing away on a cigarette, and then I minister to them, they are going to think one of two things....
A. Some Christian she is.
B. If God can love her, then what am I waiting for?

Do you agree? A perfect example for both sides of the coin is, I used to volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. The Lord laid (HEAVILY) upon my heart to guide young, frantic girls to the love of Christ. And save their unborn in the process. I was BUILT by God exactly for this ministry. I am nearly 30 and EVERY DAY I get asked how old I am! I look like a teen, which helps me get on the same level with these girls. I look just like they do. I am just as human as they are. As a child, I went through more things that I care to mention on this board. And, although controversial, I KNOW without a doubt, the Lord accepted those trials for me, to prepare me for this ministry and bring glory to His name! Those girls needed to hear .....'me too'.
I ended up leaving the ministry behind, because #1 I moved. But #2, I do not feel I give way to His glory by doing some of the things I do. If I am double minded how can I minister?

Well, non-believers will often think all manner of things about Christians regardless of what they do or don't do. It is the rebellious nature of fallen mankind to place ourselves at the center of every event we experience. For instance, someone may feel more comfortable talking to me about the Gospel because I am a smoker like they are. Or, the flip side is that they may use my addiction to nicotine as an excuse to reject everything I say to them, regardless of its biblical accuracy. This is, of course, the wrong way for them to approach the issue but that rarely makes any difference to them. We must always remember that our behavior is important and should reflect the majesty of God and our love and desire to serve Him but the truth of the matter is that non-believers rarely, if ever, have a strong enough grasp of the Gospel to separate what they may hear from legalistic Christians who outlaw everything from those who are more grounded in their approach to the freedoms enjoyed by those who have been released from the yoke of the law. Obviously, our goal should be to represent our Savior in the most holy manner we are capable as well as a continuing effort to put on more of the holiness of the Lord. This, of course, means that we are to be compassionate and considerate of the weakness of others. If your smoking is a stumbling block to your ability to share Gospel with them then don't smoke in their presence. If it is not and you feel no qualm in your conscience about doing so, then do it. Another hot issue around which the freedoms of Christians are often discussed is that of imbibing alcohol. I am fully cognizant of the freedom I have to partake of alcoholic beverages in moderation. My aunt, on the other hand, is very legalistic in her approach to Christians drinking alcohol. She is adamant almost to the point of saying that a person's soul is in jeapordy if they drink. I will simply say that there are things, like alcohol or nicotine, which, in and of themselves, are not necessarily sinful. However, we cannot let our zeal to lead others to the Kingdom overshadow our responsibility to obey God in the manner in which we are called to serve Him. For example, it has become quite common in the evangelical community to make church about everything except God. I see flyers for all manner of "church" groups, from skateboarding clubs to band rehersals to women's/men's groups, that have little or no relationship with what our ultimate purpose in fellowship should be. Obviously there is more to a strong and trusting relationship with someone than exclusive talk of the Bible but that doesn't necessitate that we cut God out of the equation. However, all of our wisdom and direction must start from, and be born by, our love for the Lord God.

MG, the concept of obeying God is quite simple, though applying that understanding is quite another thing. Is it okay to have a cigarette or a beer from a spiritual perspective? I would personally say that it is fine, so long as it is not something that is an addiction nor something that stumbles a brother or sister. Many would say that I have a jilted view because I smoke but I am under no such dellusion. I know that I am addicted to smoking and, as such, it is a sinful action. From a health perspective smoking is, obviously, unhealthy.

There is one very key statement in what you shared. You said, "I do not feel I give way to His glory by doing some of the things I do." Because you did not elaborate, nor need you, I will merely encourage you to not do those things that you feel do not bring glory to God, unless God has commanded that you do them.

I'll give you an example of something I struggle with, aside from smoking. I spent eight years in the U.S. Navy and, like just about every other guy, and many of the women, I developed the bad habit of frequently using profanity. I have overcome some of this simply because I am not around it as much but I notice that I have a much greater propensity to fall back into that same habit if I get around those who suffer from that habit. Now, obviously a person who speaks in such a manner brings no glory to God. In fact, I have heard others, and possibly done so myself, use profanity even when discussing the things of God. Terrible, isn't it? Of course it is. Obviously, I shouldn't do that. It is not the proper witness and shows nothing of the change that God has wrought in my life. However, there are other things which I will not compromise simply because they may be a stumbling block to the weakness of others. For instance, I often take my Bible or a theological commentary to work with me and read it on my break. Some people are offended by this even though I am not reading aloud or trying to draw them into a conversation about the Gospel. As I said, just because it bothers them doesn't mean I'm going to refrain from doing so. I do not proselytize at work though I have talked with other believers there and I won't refrain from futhering my knowledge and relationship with my Savior simply because others take issue with it.

So MG, in summation, I will merely encourage you to seek first the Kingdom of God. Let that be where your focus is. Let your desire to serve our God in obedience be the driving force in all of your actions. He will add your ministry and when He does you can be sure it is founded on the proper convictions and methods.

My pastor used to tell me that I need NOT wait on becoming perfect before I step into my soldier shoes. :)

Well, that's surely true being that if we waited for that we wouldn't be doing much soldiering.

I know that being disobediant will not leave me to the pit, but does being disobediant hinder the calling?

I'm not sure what you mean by "hinder the calling." It won't ever thwart the efficacy of the call of our Lord but it does affect our relationship with Him. When we sin we grieve Him and this often causes us to feel as if God has pulled away from us, though He is never far.

Why are believers the 1st to condemn their brothers and sisters?

I think it is primarily due to forgetting the substance of the debt that we have been forgiven. The parable of the unforgiving servent is pretty much a mirror to the way Christians often deal with the events of life. Additionally, as we gain in our knowledge of the Lord we often unintentionally fall back on our own righteousness and because of our weirdly confused view on how sinful we really are we often come off like the Pharisee of Luke 18:10-12 when, in truth, we should recognize our need to humble ourselves as does the tax collector of verse 13.

:sigh: rambling gets me no where

I hope it does because, as you can tell, I'm a bit of a rambler myself. :)

God bless

[muffler dragon]

By the way, I thought that one could smoke tobacco with hookah pipes, not solely marijuana -perhaps I'm wrong about that.

You are correct. Shisha is smoked in a hookah. It is Middle Eastern tobacco, and it comes in a wide variety of flavors and qualities.

[muffler dragon]

I would WARN anyone to NEVER use tobacco.


It is an extremely addictive (one gets sick from withdrawl) and dangerous toxin.,

even though legal,

it IS very hard to quit.

(and tastes gross).


My frequency with the hookah and shisha is about once a week. About as frequency as I'll have a wine cooler or a beer.

I have no addiction, and while I do admit the toxic considerations of alcohol and tobacco; these are not the only "legal" products that can have adverse affects on people. I tend to believe that each individual body reacts to various chemicals in a myriad of ways.

And btw, the shisha tastes and smells very good. 95% of the "bad" parts of smoking a cigarette are removed through use of a hookah.

m.d.

[daverain]

.







And btw, the shisha tastes and smells very good. 95% of the "bad" parts of smoking a cigarette are removed through use of a hookah.

m.d.




While I agree that everyone's 'body chemistry' is different:

I've often seen a person go from one 'tobacco cigarette' a day,

to a pack, in no time.


However...

I HAVE ALSO met some who this DOESN'T happen to.

(although this does seem to be rare)


Intersting side note:
-------------------

Calling tobacco: 'shisha', and smoking it in a 'hooka'?


Now -THAT- is EXTREMELY rare.



(lol)


Oh well...

Just some 'thoughts to ponder' for all, as it were.




Peace in Christ.



.

[muffler dragon]

Dave:

I'll PM you with a site, just to prove that there is this stuff. :D

Okay? :thumbsup:

m.d.

[MG]

Hey sis. :wave: By the way, I tried to check out your website but there were a bunch of broken links. Have you moved your personal site to a different host?

It has been a while. I will fix it in my profile after this post.





So MG, in summation, I will merely encourage you to seek first the Kingdom of God. Let that be where your focus is. Let your desire to serve our God in obedience be the driving force in all of your actions. He will add your ministry and when He does you can be sure it is founded on the proper convictions and methods.

Great point. Thank you for that tid bit of encouragement. As well as jolting me back to reality. It is encouraging to hear someone else say "me too".

Recently, it has been so easy to lose that focus. :sigh: I am a believer in fellowship, and since I am lacking in that department, I am left to my own devices.


Thank you.

[daverain]

.





Dave:


I'll PM you with a site, just to prove that there is this stuff. :D

Okay? :thumbsup:

m.d.





Sure.

I saw an old Leave It To Beaver once and...

They smoked coffee.



The Beaver and Walley had gotten ahold of Wards-pipe,

and all they could find to smoke was

coffee.


I don't think they liked it (I would have remembered THAT).


ah, BUT.


Ward noticed that his 'nice-lovely-pipe',

had been RUINED.


(But he didn't come down too harsh on the boys.)


Anyways...

I'm pretty sure that coffee is non-addictive if smoked (one could always 'smoke decaf', if unsure).


I'm wondering IF someone MUST smoke...

Perhaps COFFEE MIGHT be a good alternative to tobacco.


(I'm pretty sure it's non-addictive)



(what thinkes thou?)



-Peace in Christ.




.

[muffler dragon]

.(what thinkes thou?)



-Peace in Christ.


First, I think you need to clean out your mailbox so I can send you a PM.
:D

Second, I don't think smoking coffee would be a very good idea; especially since coffee is not a leaf.

Third, the experience with smoking tobacco through a hookah is not at all like a cigarette. The water within the hookah "filters" the steam/smoke. The shisha will normally come in one of twenty-five flavors (or so). The smoke is smooth to the mouth and throat. It's difficult to even feel it. The smell is one that allows for usage indoors without settling into the walls or furniture. And there is no direct need to immediately brush and gargle to get the mouth feeling right again. The only down fall of smoking (in any case) is what you have mentioned. There are carcinogens and toxins. This is the same with a great many things though.

As I recall a conversation I had with a person one time:

Person said, "I was looking at my toothpaste tube the other day, and it said that there is sodium laurel sulfate in the toothpaste. Sodium laurel sulfate is a suspected carcinogen."

To which I responded, "Yep, it's in there to give that nice "bubbling effect". As for the carcinogenicity, I wouldn't worry too much, because you'll probably have to eat a tube of toothpaste a day for 70 years for it to have that effect."

Here's my point, dave: anything can be a carcinogen when taken to extremes. Eat a dozen apples a day for 70 years, and you'll get cancer from one of the chemicals in apples. Heck, it might even be less depending upon the genetic make up of your body. This thought keeps hitting me:

How can one man smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and get mouth cancer by the time he's thirty, whereas, my hillbilly relatives in WV can smoke a carton a week and live into their eighties? No one knows.

Anyways... in order to digress to the OP, I don't think that any thing not explicitly spoken of can be considered a matter of obedience EXCEPT on the personal revelation level (i.e. conscience).

I hope you had a pleasant weekend.

Regards,

m.d.

[TheArthritisFoundationRox]

Personally, I enjoy a good beer or alcoholic beverage once in a while.

Actually an occasional drink can be good for the heart.

[muffler dragon]

Actually an occasional drink can be good for the heart.
That's what I've been heard also.

Glass of wine, one beer or a shot (the last one I'm not sure of, but each has the equivalent amount of alcohol - to an extent).

[daverain]

That's what I've been heard also.

Glass of wine, one beer or a shot (the last one I'm not sure of, but each has the equivalent amount of alcohol - to an extent).





After all, JESUS made wine (and it was GOOD wine).


Paul told Timothy to "Take a little wine for thy stomachs sake."

(because Paul was in jail, and so could not heal him -being an apostle- himself, yet in jail.)





Peace in Christ.





.

[AJ]

Speaking of wine... If you like a smooth Merlot... You should try Stonestreet. It is very nice, and not too expensive. ;) AJ

[daverain]

Speaking of wine... If you like a smooth Merlot... You should try Stonestreet. It is very nice, and not too expensive. ;) AJ







I like a nice 'dry-tasting' merlot.

I wonder if the wine - Jesus - made, tasted like merlot.





Peace in Christ.

[daverain]

.



It's interesting how some Christians think that there was little alcohol in said wine (in the bible).



However...


Jesus speaks of 'exploding wineskins'.

(This is do to the Carbon Dioxide, given off during fermentation.)


(='Twasn't grape-juice.)







Peace in Christ.




.