Unchurched People

[~Mrs. A2J~]

Hi,

For those of you who are are unchurched I was just wondering what the reasons were as to why you are unchurched. We are currently unchurched though we have been trying to find a church for quite a while. We live a in rural area and there aren't many churches locally. Of the churches that are there 95% are Spanish speaking only and the other 5% are Catholic which is "not our type of church". How many others are finding it hard to find a church?

[ZiSunka]

I tend to be unchurched for a while after moving. I was unchurched for five years after I moved to Dayton, then found a church I really liked, and now that I'm near Youngstown, I am unchurched again. Since I'm not really faithful to a denomination, it takes some time to find the church I think is right for me and get settled in.

[Trizm]

Well if you want to know why I was unchurched here is my reason.

Well first heres my family. I have a mother- religious father- not sure brother- spiritual 2 sisters- both spiritual
My mother never kept us into church. Im sure that many born-again believers keep their children in church so that they may find God. But my mother watches that Church channel frequently and she is religious, but she just never seemed to have a huge desire to make all of us go to church. Of course when I was younger I did not want to go to church. Im sure that there are many people who agree with me on this, but now that I am born-again I love church. I wish to make everyone at the churches I frequent my close friends so that my circle of friends wont push me into sin. So basically I never frequented church because my parents never made me. So if you are a parent reading this KEEP YOUR KIDS IN CHURCH, it really will give them values that they need. It is up to the parents to keep your kids into church and if you dont give your kids the values that they need, society will. And christian values and American values are completely different. So really the childs salvation can depend heavily upon parents. Not to say that many people who dont have a religious background are atheist, it just means that christianity is something that should be passed on.

As to why other people are unchurched I think that most Americans arent followers of Christ. I bet if we ask the average American they would say that they are a Christian, but look at our society. Its completely contradictory to what we believe and why is this??? Well the average christian is a believer and NOT a follower. So that means most people believe and pray to God but do not try to do his will. I used to pray to God always but never even think about picking up the Bible, I always said grace before I ate, I considered myself a christian but God was not the center of my life. And because God was not the center of my life, I was a slave to sin and Christ's church did not seem like a place that I wanted to be.

[Bevlina]

Basically because I live in a Rural area also, and because I came out of the catholic church years ago. From there I became a Mormon, and that was all wrong, so, have never been comfortable with churches since my experiences with the two.
I did attend an A.O.G, but, couldn't underderstand it. And, of course there was abuse from some. So, I didn't go back.

[PaladinGirl]

Me, I am just happy studying and worshipping at home. Not only that but 99% of the churches in my area are way to Conservative for me. I'm honestly considering giving up on church totally. I'm not a very social person to begin with. I like the privacy of my own home and I like having my own theology. See my signature quote about truths. ;)

[NJA]

There are many different people, many different churches, doctrines and interpretations. Which if any is correct ?
I've looked into what the bible says, been baptsied and received the Holy Spirit and found exciting truths coming to life.
If you can get to a meeting that simply does as God details (1 Corinthians 14) it will change your view of "church" and "life".

[Bevlina]

There are far too many churches. Some are huge, some are small and bound to tradition.
I have looked into what the Bible states also, and I feel that what I am doing now is as acceptable to the Lord as when I was going to church every Sunday morning.

The Lord looks on our heart, He knows our circumstances and He knows out Faith. He knows what we have need of. The original Christians lived so much differently to today's christians and I have to keep everything in perspective.
There are times when I go to church. But, does that make me a better Christian?

[PaladinGirl]

There are far too many churches. Some are huge, some are small and bound to tradition.
I have looked into what the Bible states also, and I feel that what I am doing now is as acceptable to the Lord as when I was going to church every Sunday morning.

The Lord looks on our heart, He knows our circumstances and He knows out Faith. He knows what we have need of. The original Christians lived so much differently to today's christians and I have to keep everything in perspective.
There are times when I go to church. But, does that make me a better Christian?

:amen: Amen Bevlina! I also believe that God understands my circumstances. He also understands this really bad social anxiety that I have which makes it hard for me to go to places like church by myself.

[NJA]

M't:16:18: . . upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Going to a man-made church will achieve little and may actually undermine what faith and understanding you have.

God's will, which we should be obedient to is to join His church (through baptism in water and the Holy Spirit) and grow in His abilities - that's "love" - a doing word.

[AJ]

We are currently un-churched... We are visiting several churches in the local area but have struggled to find a good "fit". I have work schedule issues that require us to find a church with an evening worship service, which has been a great henderance.

My wife and I have spent lots of time in prayer and are confident that God will lead us to where He wants us to be. We have been looking for over 6 months now.

[PaladinGirl]

M't:16:18: . . upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Going to a man-made church will achieve little and may actually undermine what faith and understanding you have.

God's will, which we should be obedient to is to join His church (through baptism in water and the Holy Spirit) and grow in His abilities - that's "love" - a doing word.

I agree. I see nothing wrong with not attending church. I belong to God's Church and that's what matters the most. :)

[NJA]

How can you minister that love, and be built up by the ministry of others if you are not with them ?

Heb:10:25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is

[PaladinGirl]

How can you minister that love, and be built up by the ministry of others if you are not with them ?

Heb:10:25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is

I honestly feel that this verse does not apply today. It applied back then because life was hard and they were always being persecuted by the Romans. Therefore, getting together and fellowshipping was an important thing. But today, we have the Internet and can fellowship on the Internet and we can pray in private and worship God in private. Also, I feel that the above verse is merely an opinion of some Biblical writer. The author of Hebrews isn't known is it?

[NJA]

God set up fellowship before Roman persecution started:-

Ac:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . . 42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Internet chat is nowhere near that - even if you can agree on the need to be spirit-filled, you still can't physically help & care, break bread, lay on hands, the demonstration of the fruit is severely limited, the gifts are can hardly be operated (like God "commands" in 1 Cor. 14), baptism . . . . .

Many people testify to the benefits to their own faith and vision by seeing (and doing) these things.

How can "the world" know our love if all we ever do is chat like this, we need to show the love of God as God's family - people of different backgrounds having all things in common.

2Jo:1:12: Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

[PaladinGirl]

God set up fellowship before Roman persecution started:-

Ac:2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . . 42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Internet chat is nowhere near that - even if you can agree on the need to be spirit-filled, you still can't physically help & care, break bread, lay on hands, the demonstration of the fruit is severely limited, the gifts are can hardly be operated (like God "commands" in 1 Cor. 14), baptism . . . . .

Many people testify to the benefits to their own faith and vision by seeing (and doing) these things.

How can "the world" know our love if all we ever do is chat like this, we need to show the love of God as God's family - people of different backgrounds having all things in common.

2Jo:1:12: Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Regardless, it would have been a stressful time for them. The early Christians were likely hated by many people including the Romans and the Jews.

But in all honesty, one major reason why I don't see church attendance as a requirement today is because we can easily fellowship on the Internet through forums such as this. We can also watch church services on television if we want to hear a sermon.

[cenimo]

This is from a site I stumbled onto, theologically correct .com,
it fits here:

What's the Big Issue ?
Why Does It Matter ?
What If I Fail to Act On It ?

Getting to the to the foundational issue.... I know you go to church, you may have been baptized, confirmed, taken communion....or you may follow another religion or you might just consider yourself 'religious' with no church affiliation whatsoever..... but who is Jesus Christ to you ?

http://www.theologicallycorrect.com/today.shtml

See - some folks know ABOUT Him - they go to church, know some scripture, know some hymns, know tradition - but they don't KNOW Him - intimately and personally. This is the type of 'relationship' that Paul speaks of when he says he wants to know Christ in the power of His resurrection and in the fellowship of His sufferings in Philippians 3:8-10.

Never really thought about that, did you ?

And knowing Him like that comes from coming to a point in your life where you realize that you are a sinner - a transgressor of God's law - and that your good works cannot save you.

[Bevlina]

It's knowing Him intimately which really matters. In all ways we are to strive to become more Spiritual. This we can do in the quiet of our home.
All things work together for good for those who worship God no matter how we worship, or where we worship. We must be Christlike, and I find the quiet time I spend alone with my Creator nourishes my soul.
It's one thing to know ABOUT Him, it's another to know Him as cenimo says. I've had amazing experiences while on my own.

[VioletAngel]

I belong to a church, but am currently looking for another. The loud, contemporary services are really getting to me. It is a joke. There is very little fellowship during these so-called "worship" services because everyone cannot hear a thing by the time it's over with. There is no church that doesn't do this which I can find! I want a worship service, not an entertainment show.

[loribee59]

I might as well join one of those "unchurched" after going to this current church off and on for over a year~ until last month, when my pastor preached a half hour on tithing. (I've been spiritually abused in the previous church about this issue)

I just don't know what to do~ :( except to do my own studying and praying and getting to KNOW God better on my own than thru someone else's teachings. The only thing that I'll miss is the fellowshipping, but then again, I can always visit my friends and fellowship with them. And I've done some fellowshipping here in CF.

[fallen^sparrow]

I honestly feel that this verse does not apply today. It applied back then because life was hard and they were always being persecuted by the Romans. Therefore, getting together and fellowshipping was an important thing. But today, we have the Internet and can fellowship on the Internet and we can pray in private and worship God in private. Also, I feel that the above verse is merely an opinion of some Biblical writer. The author of Hebrews isn't known is it?

Wow, this seems like a pretty slippery slope to try and stand and base your faith on. First let me say persecution today isn't any different or any less then the early Christians suffered at the hands of the Romans and Jews. On the topic of the internet "Church" ... I believe getting together and fellowshipping is an important and essential thing to do, and internet relationships, although elliciting real emotions, have little real sustenance. If you are in need of help you can cry out over the internet you'll get sympathetic replies... but its the flesh and blood person who answers your call face to face that you'll remember. Jesus came in the flesh and blood and dwelt among us. To think that we can remain isolated and attempt to carry on real personal relationships over the internet alone, although possible, isn't what God and Christ intended for us remain spiritually healthy and happy. The internet I believe can help make a difficult situation or circumstances better, but isn't an end unto itself. :thumbsup:

fallen^sparrow :)

[dia_liom]

I'm a long ways from the most 'social' person on earth, but I think we all need to be part of a church family. They help us thru difficult times, and we fellowship with them.

[Bevlina]

Indeed, that is why some of us have a little home church.

[PaladinGirl]

Wow, this seems like a pretty slippery slope to try and stand and base your faith on. First let me say persecution today isn't any different or any less then the early Christians suffered at the hands of the Romans and Jews. On the topic of the internet "Church" ... I believe getting together and fellowshipping is an important and essential thing to do, and internet relationships, although elliciting real emotions, have little real sustenance. If you are in need of help you can cry out over the internet you'll get sympathetic replies... but its the flesh and blood person who answers your call face to face that you'll remember. Jesus came in the flesh and blood and dwelt among us. To think that we can remain isolated and attempt to carry on real personal relationships over the internet alone, although possible, isn't what God and Christ intended for us remain spiritually healthy and happy. The internet I believe can help make a difficult situation or circumstances better, but isn't an end unto itself. :thumbsup:

fallen^sparrow :)

Fallen sparrow, I do appreciate your concern for me but honestly, my spiritual life is quite healthy. I do much better by myself. I don't stay in my place all day. I often go and visit family and friends. Believe me, I'm not really a loner. I have simply never gotten much out of church and probably never will. I have never developed any true friendships while going to church either. I've always been the oddball that everyone ignores for the most part. I like my private relationship with God. I can understand how someone may see this as a dangerous thing but I have my own doctrine and my own beliefs. I do not see fellowship in a church building or even a house church as necessary at all. Remember, it was Paul who wrote the words saying that we should not foresake fellowship. Paul, although a saint and likely a much more knowledgeable man than I, was only a human. He was expressing his opinions when writing what he wrote. Like all humans, he could have easily have been wrong.

[Bevlina]

Wow, this seems like a pretty slippery slope to try and stand and base your faith on. First let me say persecution today isn't any different or any less then the early Christians suffered at the hands of the Romans and Jews. On the topic of the internet "Church" ... I believe getting together and fellowshipping is an important and essential thing to do, and internet relationships, although elliciting real emotions, have little real sustenance. If you are in need of help you can cry out over the internet you'll get sympathetic replies... but its the flesh and blood person who answers your call face to face that you'll remember. Jesus came in the flesh and blood and dwelt among us. To think that we can remain isolated and attempt to carry on real personal relationships over the internet alone, although possible, isn't what God and Christ intended for us remain spiritually healthy and happy. The internet I believe can help make a difficult situation or circumstances better, but isn't an end unto itself. :thumbsup:

fallen^sparrow :)

fallen^sparrow, have you ever belonged to a church which threw you aside because you became a widow? I have.
I believe our spiritual life is in very good Hands. This is a Forum for people who are Unchurched. It was not created for churched people to come in and tell us what to do.

[Bevlina]

Nope Holly, not at all. My crime is that I am a widow. Churches I used to attend dropped me like a hot scone when they heard I had lost my husband! Best friends in the church never even bothered to send me a condolence card.
One church member helped me a couple of years after my husband's death, and I had never attended the church he attended.
I live alone, and intend to stay that way too! Yes, I have forgiven them ... but the hard part is forgetting when I am constantly reminded.

[fallen^sparrow]

fallen^sparrow, have you ever belonged to a church which threw you aside because you became a widow? I have.
I believe our spiritual life is in very good Hands. This is a Forum for people who are Unchurched. It was not created for churched people to come in and tell us what to do.

Hello Bevlina

A few things I should mention and as such sort of introduce myself. Currently I am unchurched and am so for a variety of reasons which I may be prepared to discuss over the coming months on this new forum. :wave: Other areas of interest include that fact that I to am "widowed" ... 5 years ago later this month. My brother was "kicked out of the church" for being openly gay... and I'm not here specifically to "tell you (or anyone else) what to do."

fallen^sparrow :)

[PaladinGirl]

Nope Holly, not at all. My crime is that I am a widow. Churches I used to attend dropped me like a hot scone when they heard I had lost my husband! Best friends in the church never even bothered to send me a condolence card.
One church member helped me a couple of years after my husband's death, and I had never attended the church he attended.
I live alone, and intend to stay that way too! Yes, I have forgiven them ... but the hard part is forgetting when I am constantly reminded.

Oh wow. That's a lot to go through. :cry: It's truly sad how Christians can treat other Christians sometime. Anyway, I sincerely apologise if I brought back bitter memories. I'm sorry.


Hello Bevlina

A few things I should mention and as such sort of introduce myself. Currently I am unchurched and am so for a variety of reasons which I may be prepared to discuss over the coming months on this new forum. :wave: Other areas of interest include that fact that I to am "widowed" ... 5 years ago later this month. My brother was "kicked out of the church" for being openly gay... and I'm not here specifically to "tell you (or anyone else) what to do."

fallen^sparrow :)

Welcome to the forums fallen^sparrow! :wave: Anyway, sorry to hear about you being widowed and your openly gay brother. That's sad. :( Anyway, don't worry about the previous post. All is forgiven. It just seems that sometimes people misunderstand the reasons why I don't go to church. I really just don't fit in. *sigh* That and the fact that the nearest church that I think would even accept my sexuality is about 20 miles away which is too far for me to drive do to gas and mileage on my car.

[tomedward]

That and the fact that the nearest church that I think would even accept my sexuality is about 20 miles away which is too far for me to drive do to gas and mileage on my car. And I thought that feeling unwelcome in a church because you are bisexual/lesbian was bad. [/QUOTE]

Based on your own statements above Holly I can understand why you might have a problem finding a church whose congregation actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ !

Are you looking for a church or Jesus the Christ ? I hope you know there is a difference. I speak to you the truth in love. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."



tomedward, a bond-servant of Jesus the Christ who cares for your eternal soul.

[Bevlina]

Hello Bevlina

A few things I should mention and as such sort of introduce myself. Currently I am unchurched and am so for a variety of reasons which I may be prepared to discuss over the coming months on this new forum. :wave: Other areas of interest include that fact that I to am "widowed" ... 5 years ago later this month. My brother was "kicked out of the church" for being openly gay... and I'm not here specifically to "tell you (or anyone else) what to do."

fallen^sparrow :)

fallen^sparrow, I am so very sorry to hear of your bereavement for one so young... so very sorry. That is tragic, simply tragic. My heart goes out to you as I know your grief. :cry:

And, I am so sorry your brother has been kicked out of a church for being openly gay. Did they give him a chance to chat to them before coming to this drastic measure? That's horrible!

Please, I ask your forgiveness if I took your post the wrong way. I had no idea you were unchurched.

[PaladinGirl]

And I thought that feeling unwelcome in a church because you are bisexual/lesbian was bad.

Based on your own statements above Holly I can understand why you might have a problem finding a church whose congregation actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ !

Are you looking for a church or Jesus the Christ ? I hope you know there is a difference. I speak to you the truth in love. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

Your sin may not be adultry but the scriptures are clear concerning "your sexuality" and as such qualify as spiritual adultry. Love does not tolerate sin. Jesus came to free us from sin. Jesus does NOT "accept your bisexual/lesbian sexuality!"

Nor do I condemn you Holly. Christ offers forgiveness if we will repent Go, and sin no more.

tomedward, a bond-servant of Jesus the Christ who cares for your eternal soul.

First of all, I did not come in here to be told what Jesus accepts and what He does not accept! I do not appreciate you preaching to me like that and I will kindly ask that you refrain from preaching to me on this matter in the future. I have forgiven you but I have my own opinions on this topic and I don't need to be told what Jesus accepts and what He does not accept. I have my own beliefs on this topic just as you have. I respect your beliefs and all I ask is that you respect mine as well. Thank you and God bless.

[Bevlina]

And .... might I add that God looks on the heart?

[PaladinGirl]

And .... might I add that God looks on the heart?

:amen: Amen Bevlina! Those are some of the most true words I have ever heard! God does look on our heart and thank Him for that! :clap: You have brightened my day (or actually night in this case ;) ). :thumbsup:

[Bevlina]

Well, that's the fact of it Holly!
There is the self righteous Christian, the sanctimonious christian, the judgemental christian, the backslidden christian, the gossiping christian, and of course the everyday nice christian, and the sinning christian who goes to church on Sunday and plays up all week by yelling, thieving, swearing, committing adultery, committing fornication, looking at porn and doing numerous other things.
In churches, we find them all. But, that is how WE see them, it may be not how GOD see's them.
Because at the end of the day, God looks on the heart of the person. And if the heart is OK with God, then it's just as well to accept the fact that God is the One who has the final say.

[PaladinGirl]

Well, that's the fact of it Holly!
There is the self righteous Christian, the sanctimonious christian, the judgemental christian, the backslidden christian, the gossiping christian, and of course the everyday nice christian, and the sinning christian who goes to church on Sunday and plays up all week by yelling, thieving, swearing, committing adultery, committing fornication, looking at porn and doing numerous other things.
In churches, we find them all. But, that is how WE see them, it may be not how GOD see's them.
Sexuality and God has no bounds. Gay people, and bi sexual people have as much right to love God as anybody else too. And, I give all great credit who do. Because at the end of the day, God looks on the heart of the person. And if the heart is OK with God, then it's just as well to accept the fact that God is the One who has the final say.

I totally agree Bevlina! And I think we should all remember that none of us are perfect. We will all disagree sometimes. But that should not stop us from treating each other like brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, what may be wrong in one person's eyes, may not be wrong in another's. :)

[Redneck Crow]

I do not attend church regularly because there are no church assemblies in my area that are Acts 9 Dispys. I occasionally attend a Baptist church for fellowship.

I've found Christian friends on the net that I can fellowship with and am closer to than most I ever met in a brick and mortar church. Church isn't the building~~it's the people.

That being said, I hope someday that I will be able to attend a church service close to home with like-minded believers. Maybe someday.....

[Bevlina]

Welcome Redneck Crow!!

[unbound]

I find that having fellowship at my home or the nieghbors is much more realistic than all the other churches I have attended. There are at least 4(8 people) groups of us that get together once a week, and we are all reading and studying together. We all get to ask questions, discuss, and pray.

We plan to keep just the basics, because we believe that its about worship and not a fancy building with social benefits.

We keep in mind that the worship of God is welcome in our homes and not something we should distance ourselves from after we leave that fancy building.

[New_Wineskin]

Hi,

For those of you who are are unchurched I was just wondering what the reasons were as to why you are unchurched. We are currently unchurched though we have been trying to find a church for quite a while. We live a in rural area and there aren't many churches locally. Of the churches that are there 95% are Spanish speaking only and the other 5% are Catholic which is "not our type of church". How many others are finding it hard to find a church?

It is a long story about how I came to be no longer a member of a group at this point in time . But , as to why I am staying that way ... I like it . I am waiting for direction from the Lord but am satisfied with where I am . I definitely disagree with the concept of membership ( or any other way of putting it ) in any way to a specific group . I do not consider groups to be churches but more like clubs .

[PaladinGirl]

It is a long story about how I came to be no longer a member of a group at this point in time . But , as to why I am staying that way ... I like it . I am waiting for direction from the Lord but am satisfied with where I am . I definitely disagree with the concept of membership ( or any other way of putting it ) in any way to a specific group . I do not consider groups to be churches but more like clubs .

That's basically the way I am. However, I am recently became highly interested in Catholicism and plan to eventually attend RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) classes. From what I have been told, you do not have to even intend to be Catholic. Many people have taken these classes without any intention to join the church. I also understand that they teach you a lot about the church and that the classes usually last for less than a year but it varies because I am guessing it is a "go at your own pace" sort of thing. Anyway, just thought I'd share my two cents (or maybe three or four ^_^)!

[WalksWithChrist]

I have been at CF for a matter of weeks but just found this section! I have been "unchurched" (never heard that term before!) for more than three years since I moved to NC with my fiancee. We were attending a couple Pentacostal churches in FL and had some mixed experiences. My fiancee is a bit unsociable and I am a bit as well when it comes to being a "newcomer." I grew up in a military family and really don't like having to start over. I've done it way too many times. I am not really "married" to the Pentacostal denomination but don't know what kind of church I want to try to attend. There is a non-denominational church right around the corner from where I have been living for the past year, but I haven't walked in the door yet. I grew up Presbyterian/Methodist but found them to be too dry for me spiritually. My views have changed a lot since I was in church last and this is a big issue for me. I'm afraid that a church I go to may get mad at me for not being a "team player." Thanks for listening. = )

[tomedward]

First of all, I did not come in here to be told what Jesus accepts and what He does not accept! I do not appreciate you preaching to me like that and I will kindly ask that you refrain from preaching to me on this matter in the future
1) I have forgiven you but I have my own opinions on this topic and I don't need to be told what Jesus accepts and what He does not accept.2) I have my own beliefs on this topic just as you have.3) I respect your beliefs and all I ask is that you respect mine as well. Thank you and God bless.

1) I don't need to be forgiven for speaking the truth in love Holly.


2) I don't have beliefs Holly, I simply agree with God's truth found in the Holy Scriptures.


3.) You obviously don't respect my so called "beliefs" at all if we can not debate the matter.


Those who love Me obey my commandments.....Jesus the Christ

[WalksWithChrist]

1) I don't need to be forgiven for speaking the truth in love Holly.


2) I don't have beliefs Holly, I simply agree with God's truth found in the Holy Scriptures.


3.) You obviously don't respect my so called "beliefs" at all if we can not debate the matter.


Those who love Me obey my commandments.....Jesus the ChristYou sure you're in the right thread? It occurs to me that the people who gravitate here are the more kicked-around and abused people in the Church. Show some sensitivity!

[ZiSunka]

I think we all need to be sensitive not only to each other but to God as well. I doubt if He likes it when his people hurt each other, and I doubt he likes it when we jump to the conclusion that someone wants to hurt us.

Let's all take a deep breath and remember that this forum is for people who for any reason don't belong to a local church, and sometimes the reason is that it is hard for them to hear words that touch too harshly on sensitive areas of their lives.

[New_Wineskin]

That's basically the way I am. However, I am recently became highly interested in Catholicism and plan to eventually attend RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) classes. From what I have been told, you do not have to even intend to be Catholic. Many people have taken these classes without any intention to join the church. I also understand that they teach you a lot about the church and that the classes usually last for less than a year but it varies because I am guessing it is a "go at your own pace" sort of thing. Anyway, just thought I'd share my two cents (or maybe three or four ^_^)! I have been excommunicated by the Catholic group . Missing mass on Sunday or day of obligation is a mortal sin . Not sorrowful for such is an automatic excommunication and damnation if one dies in such a state ( according to doctrine ) .

[Bevlina]

But that's the catholic doctrine Wineskin. That's what the church states. God has not excummunicated you. God is Patient, God is kind. God is merciful.
God looks on the heart. No church can look on the heart. That is God's territory.

I believe you should also read that little book you can print out from the web. "At The Master's Feet" It's in a thread here.

It isn't what a church states is right or wrong. It's what GOD states.

[ZiSunka]

I have been excommunicated by the Catholic group . Missing mass on Sunday or day of obligation is a mortal sin . Not sorrowful for such is an automatic excommunication and damnation if one dies in such a state ( according to doctrine ) .

The Bible never says that missing mass is a sin, so I wouldn't worry too much about being damned for it!

[New_Wineskin]

But that's the catholic doctrine Wineskin. That's what the church states. God has not excummunicated you. God is Patient, God is kind. God is merciful.
God looks on the heart. No church can look on the heart. That is God's territory.

I believe you should also read that little book you can print out from the web. "At The Master's Feet" It's in a thread here.

It isn't what a church states is right or wrong. It's what GOD states.

Oh . I am quite all right with their stand against me . Believe me . The sad thing is that many people who are Catholic are actually excommunicated because they don't keep track of the days of obligation or think that it is ok to not go to mass once in a while . Some think that they only have to go around Easter and that is it . Some have no idea that the Friday rules are still in effect thinking that Vatican II did away with them . I was actually taught by a Catholic nun in Catholic school that they were done away . But , I suppose that ignorance is bliss . They are happy thinking that they are Catholic and the group is happy that they at least are not going elsewhere and they give money to them at least once in a while . As for me ... I am happy not beng a part of it anymore . There seems to be quite a bit of miscommunication and even noncommunication going on . It makes for interesting conversations with my siblings , anyway . ;)

[New_Wineskin]

The Bible never says that missing mass is a sin, so I wouldn't worry too much about being damned for it!

I agree . And yet , many noncatholic Christians have the same mindset . The same question comes up : Do you go to church ? No ... they won't go so far as to *say* it is a sin or a damnable offense . But , the implication is obvious .

[Kaonashi]

I am currently unchurched because I haven't been able to find a church that has anything for my age group and would be able to withstand my questioning. It seems like most churches I have been to don't have anything for the twentysomethings that are in college.

[JeffreyLloyd]

I have been excommunicated by the Catholic group . Missing mass on Sunday or day of obligation is a mortal sin . Not sorrowful for such is an automatic excommunication and damnation if one dies in such a state ( according to doctrine ) .

Despite what these what you have heard here (from people who are not Catholic), you were never automatically excommunicated for missing Mass.

Yes, missing Mass is a sin, but it should be. If we are Catholic and really believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, then we should do all that we can to make it to Mass on Sunday. It is not a sin to miss Mass if you can't make it for health, or have no Church close to you to go to.

You should really call your local priest and talk to him about this. And let me say again, you are not excommunicated !!!

[New_Wineskin]

Despite what these what you have heard here (from people who are not Catholic), you were never automatically excommunicated for missing Mass.

Yes, missing Mass is a sin, but it should be. If we are Catholic and really believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, then we should do all that we can to make it to Mass on Sunday. It is not a sin to miss Mass if you can't make it for health, or have no Church close to you to go to.

You should really call your local priest and talk to him about this. And let me say again, you are not excommunicated !!!

I thought that I was fairly clear that I was talking about *intentionally" missing mass . I would have been deceptive and ignorant if I was talking about missing mass through accident or inability .

Ok . Let me clarify ...
I have intentionally missed mass . I do not consider that it is something that is obligatory in nature . This is an apostate stance as I knowingly disagree with the doctrine . As such , I am automatically excommunicated . So , it is more than missing mass . It is disagreeing that it is obligatory and not attending due to that disagreement . In the previos posts , I thought that the intentions were sufficiently alluded to . Given that the Catholic group and any group has a right to have whatever laws that it deems necessary , I am ok with that . But , I wanted to make sure that the idea of mortal sin for not attending every obligatory period was clearly presented .

To miss mass *intentionally* is a mortal/grave/grevious sin . One may not receive communion in this state .

I have this knowledge not from noncatholics nor from excatholics but from information by Catholics on the web and through the Catholic Catechism .

This is not anticatholic . Of course , those who were not Catholic are not under obligation to attend mass . But , they are not generally allowed to participate in communion , either which is what happens with those who are excomunicated . It deals with those *in* communion with the Catholic group .

I do appreciate your concern . I think that I and the group are in a better place for my no longer being in communion with the group .

[Bevlina]

tomedward, this is not a debate Forum. As far as I am concerned Catholics are Christians. Debating in this Forum is not the right thing to do.

[JeffreyLloyd]

I thought that I was fairly clear that I was talking about *intentionally" missing mass . I would have been deceptive and ignorant if I was talking about missing mass through accident or inability .

Ok . Let me clarify ...
I have intentionally missed mass . I do not consider that it is something that is obligatory in nature . This is an apostate stance as I knowingly disagree with the doctrine . As such , I am automatically excommunicated . ....

No you are not, you are in a state of mortal sin. And that is it.

[Bevlina]

Perhaps you could pm Jefrey Lloyd New_Wineskin? I'm sure he could explain the matter to you more clearly by pm. As I understand it, you are not excommunicated by the Catholic Church for missing Mass. If you do so intentionally, there must be a reason and it might be wise for you to communicate with JL and express your reasons why and then he can guide you through. I do know that to miss Mass intentionally is a mortal sin.

[ZiSunka]

Don't CF rules prohibit us from saying that one denomination or another is not Christian, as long as their theology and doctrines are orthodox?

[Bevlina]

We are definitely not permitted to post anything that belittles or puts down ANY Christian Group, or denomination.
And, there is no need to do that anyway. If a church believes in the Nicene Creed, it is a Christian Church.

[JeffreyLloyd]

And for the record, the only way you could be "automatically excommunicated" from the Catholic Church, is if you have an abortion.

[Bevlina]

And for the record, the only way you could be "automatically excommunicated" from the Catholic Church, is if you have an abortion.
And, that's fair enough Jeffrey because abortion is murder no matter which way we look at it.

[New_Wineskin]

Perhaps you could pm Jefrey Lloyd New_Wineskin? I'm sure he could explain the matter to you more clearly by pm. As I understand it, you are not excommunicated by the Catholic Church for missing Mass. If you do so intentionally, there must be a reason and it might be wise for you to communicate with JL and express your reasons why and then he can guide you through. I do know that to miss Mass intentionally is a mortal sin.

Thanks . It seems that he and I are in disagreement over our sources . I wouldn't want to go around in circles .

[Bevlina]

I am very sorry to hear that. But, it would appear that at the moment you are inbetween churches?

[Mustaphile]

Hi all. I'm unchurched because I don't want to be restricted by membership. I can walk into any church I like and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions. I ocassionally pop into my local Uniting Church, Assembly of God and Catholic church. I can also spend time away from church when I don't feel inclined to go. I'm always seeking to interact with other christians in some way though, which is a big factor in me being online chatting with you all. :D

I'm more interested in the things that we have in common than the things that divide us.

I love you all. :)

[PaladinGirl]

1) I don't need to be forgiven for speaking the truth in love Holly.


2) I don't have beliefs Holly, I simply agree with God's truth found in the Holy Scriptures.


3.) You obviously don't respect my so called "beliefs" at all if we can not debate the matter.


Those who love Me obey my commandments.....Jesus the Christ

Tom, I have tried to show you kindness. I hope you have accepted it but I do not get the impression that you have accepted it. This topic is dropped. If you wish to continue this, then PM me. This thread was not made for debate. Thank you. :)

God Bless,
Holly :wave:

[New_Wineskin]

Hi all. I'm unchurched because I don't want to be restricted by membership. I can walk into any church I like and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions. I ocassionally pop into my local Uniting Church, Assembly of God and Catholic church. I can also spend time away from church when I don't feel inclined to go. I'm always seeking to interact with other christians in some way though, which is a big factor in me being online chatting with you all. :D

I'm more interested in the things that we have in common than the things that divide us.

I love you all. :)

Good stuff . Me , too .

The membership thing seems to stifling . There is a lot of diversity out there . Even more than in these forums .

[New_Wineskin]

I am very sorry to hear that. But, it would appear that at the moment you are inbetween churches?

Hi !

I am not sure why you would be sorry to hear it . People don't agree . I am fine with disagreement . We will be fine . :) Thank you , for your concern .

I wouldn't say that I am inbetween churches . *IF* I am still a Catholic , then I wouldn't be inbetween groups by the fact that I am still considered a part of that group . If I am not a Catholic , then I consider that there is only one Church and disagree with the concept of membership ( or similar term ) . So inbetween doesn't really sound right in that respect , either . I like Mustaphile's post . Being a part of the Body in general and meeting as sorts of brothers and sisters ... good stuff .

[Bevlina]

You are still part of the Body of Christ New_Wineskin. It's most important to stay close to our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what church they belong to. I have great admiration and love or Jesus the Christ. All Churches on earth share this admiration and He is our mutual bond and the reason for us staying close as a united Body on earth.

[Bevlina]

Hi all. I'm unchurched because I don't want to be restricted by membership. I can walk into any church I like and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions. I ocassionally pop into my local Uniting Church, Assembly of God and Catholic church. I can also spend time away from church when I don't feel inclined to go. I'm always seeking to interact with other christians in some way though, which is a big factor in me being online chatting with you all. :D

I'm more interested in the things that we have in common than the things that divide us.

I love you all. :)

Must, you surprise me! I always thought you belonged to an established church.
Where did I get that impression from?
I like the way things happen in my little town. The Catholic Church and the Uniting Church are very close in friendship because all other churches throw the Catholic Church and their followers aside. This is so very wrong, wrong, wrong.
Often the Uniting Church Minister goes to Mass, and often the Catholic followers pop down to listen to his sermon. There is a friendship between both churches which is likened to a brotherhood. It's lovely too!

[Mustaphile]

Must, you surprise me! I always thought you belonged to an established church.
Where did I get that impression from?


I don't know, Bevlina! :D

I occasionally talk about a church that I may have visited. Sometimes I've talked about joining one. Deep down inside I just can't restrict myself to only fellowshipping with one denomination. I have people I care for in one denomination and insights and understandings into christianity specific to other denominations that I enjoy, but not many friends there.

My fellowship with people online is fairly extensive. The depth of discussion online is something I can't get in the churches around me, because there is not much fellowship going on between church denominations and not many people are as willing to broach certain subjects as I am. I get lonely sometimes, but I always have God with me. :)

I'm pleased to hear about the way your local churches interact. I'd like to see more of that.

[Lovesherald]

Well, to be honest, I don't think anyone MUST go to church. It's good mind you, but all we need is to have fellowship with other Christians. Of course, the best place to find them is at church, at least hopefully. Read the Bible, pray, talk, and worship God...have a relationship with Him and all is well.

Jesus himself said Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath...this might not even fit it...oh well...anyone know the exact scripture? Would be helpful I've been looking all over for it. I only saw it once.

[Bevlina]

Mk2:27-28.

[Bevlina]

I don't know, Bevlina! :D

I occasionally talk about a church that I may have visited. Sometimes I've talked about joining one. Deep down inside I just can't restrict myself to only fellowshipping with one denomination. I have people I care for in one denomination and insights and understandings into christianity specific to other denominations that I enjoy, but not many friends there.

My fellowship with people online is fairly extensive. The depth of discussion online is something I can't get in the churches around me, because there is not much fellowship going on between church denominations and not many people are as willing to broach certain subjects as I am. I get lonely sometimes, but I always have God with me. :)

I'm pleased to hear about the way your local churches interact. I'd like to see more of that.

Ah ... it's ony the Catholic and Uniting that fellowship Must. The rest veer away ....
My fellowship with folk online is very extensive too. But, I have my little group of like minded friends here. And they are absolutely wonderful!
But, like you, I cannot restrict myself to the one denomination now. However, because of my catholic ties, I find it lovely to go to Mass now and then. But, I cannot enter another church anymore apart from the catholic.
But that's just me.

[New_Wineskin]

You are still part of the Body of Christ New_Wineskin. It's most important to stay close to our brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what church they belong to. I have great admiration and love or Jesus the Christ. All Churches on earth share this admiration and He is our mutual bond and the reason for us staying close as a united Body on earth.

I only know of one Church . Since I am a part of that , one canot be any closer . A hand cannot be asked to be closer to the body that it is a part of . SInce , there is only one Body , it is hard for me to be closer .

[GraceMan]

:amen:

I only know of one church as well and that is the body of Christ. All believers are one body in Christ. All of you are my church. :thumbsup:

GraceMan

[GraceMan]

Hi all. I'm unchurched because I don't want to be restricted by membership. I can walk into any church I like and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions. I ocassionally pop into my local Uniting Church, Assembly of God and Catholic church. I can also spend time away from church when I don't feel inclined to go. I'm always seeking to interact with other christians in some way though, which is a big factor in me being online chatting with you all. :D

I'm more interested in the things that we have in common than the things that divide us.

I love you all. :)

I really like your attitude! One must go through life with a positive view. You made my day! Thanks! :clap:

[bobbichan]

I'm currently unchurched. This is mostly because I have social anxieties. When I was a teenager, I attended two different churches regularly. At the time, all the youth groups in the county worked together and had lots of events. I was really comfortable there, and I attended regularly. Well, after my 2nd year of college, I kind of hit a roadbump in my life. I became very depressed and withdrawn. Not only that but the churches I attended went through a lot of changes, and the people who I loved being around were no longer there. So I just kind of stopped going all together for a few years.

In the past few years, I've tried to attend with friends (helped ease the social anxiety issue for me) I found the services were way too ritualistic for my liking, or I just couldn't get into the worship services at all. Hymnals have never been my thing. I spend more time concentrating on reading the music, matching pitch with everyone around me, and making sure I'm on the right verse instead of concentrating on God. I like contemporary worship services better so much simpler. Also, a lot of my friends just aren't church going or Christian at all. So, it's often pretty hard for me to find a place where I feel comfortable. I guess that's a big issue for me.

[Bevlina]

Most of my friends don't go to church either. But Jesus stated "Where two .... etc; are gathered in My Name ...." The original Christians built no churches either, they just gathered!

[NJA]

So Belvina, they *do* go to church ?

Or are you saying there is a difference between gathering "in his name" and going to church ?

Jesus, through the Holy Spirit said things about gathering together in His name, read 1 Corinthians 11 - 14, concluding with:-
1Cor.14:37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

[Bevlina]

There is no difference between going to church or gathering in His Name. Those who go to Church are gathering in His Name.
Those who don't go to church and have Home Groups/Churches, are gathering in His Name.

[New_Wineskin]

There is no difference between going to church or gathering in His Name. Those who go to Church are gathering in His Name.
Those who don't go to church and have Home Groups/Churches, are gathering in His Name.

The same is true for those that see a sibling on the street and begin to converse with them .

[Bevlina]

Exactly. Wherever there is Love, God is there.

[chunkofcoal]

Two or more gathered in His name - read Luke 24:13-32 The two disciples walking to Emmaus weren't in a church. I've been thinking about this passage and wondering how many times Jesus has walked with us and we didn't know it!

[Tawny]

I am currently unchurched, the main reason is because the only church in my village is not exactly welcoming. I attended it for many years and my little girl was Christened there, one day a few weeks after she was Christened I was leaving the church after Sunday Service and one of the older women said to another "I cannot believe the Vicar lets B*st*rds in to our church" As you can probably imagine this hurt me an awful lot. Just because I made a mistake and followed the wrong path there is no need to take it out on my innocent daughter. Anyway I am a proud single mum! Since then I have not been back, I went to a baptist church for a couple of years and was baptised there, but many of the people I went with left the church or moved away and it was not the same. So I now worship at home and read my bible alone.

Nicky

[Bevlina]

Good grief nicky!! That is shocking! I did know of a retarded lady aroud here who wanted so much to go to church, and so one day, she put her Sunday best o and went to church. And, she was so thrilled! She loved it!
She kept going and then one day, one of the staunch women from that church saw me in the street and we chatted and said to her "I see you've got Rama going to church now!"
with a big smile. The smile faded when she snapped, "Yes, out of all the churches SHE had to pick our's."

Now, a case like this is not the fault of the church. It's the fault of the person. Some folk are like that, but, there are many, many others who are not. You and your little one would be more than welcome to be with me at any church! And, I'd reckon that all the other's here would say the same!
But I can feel your pain because that would have hurt me just as deeply as you. I am so sorry that happened to you. Do all the other's feel that way or is it just one or two?
Because I feel sure they should be more welcoming than that!
Who cares if you once followed a wrong path! That's between you and God honey and I feel sure you are right with God now!

[chunkofcoal]

Reminds me of the story in Luke 7:36-50
The woman knew she had messed up, but she couldn't go to the Pharisees for help because they condemned her as a sinner. So, she went to Jesus. He didn't turn her away; she was repentant, and He forgave her.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Welcome Nicky.

[Tawny]

Exactly, Many of the churches where I live seem to have an attitude. I will go and as soon as word gets round that I am not married but have Kirsty they just seem to change in their attitude to me.

Now I keep my faith, I know that He is in my heart and thats what matters to me.

[Bevlina]

And that is all that matter's tawny. I get a little frustrated at times with self righteous people in my home town. Some seem to have an attitude of self righteousness and are very judgemental.
But, now, I don't let them bother me. I live my life and they live theirs. Years ago I let it get to me when I kept getting letters from a woman regarding my salvation. Eventually, I became a bit angry because it appears that many people wanted to "save" me. Struth! I was saved as a child!
Jesus is my Saviour. Not people on earth.

Don't let them get to you tawny. You're doing well.

[Redneck Crow]

I'm "unchurched" by choice, if you believe a church to be a building or a select group of Christians who share nearly identical views.

It's opened me to some amazing experiences.

Church is, for me, the assembly of believers, not a place or a membership list. I've had church in the most unlikely of places--a laundromat, a restaurant, at work, waiting for a ride, and many more.

In fact, I have church every time I go to work! I'm a nurse, and there are several of my elderly patients who like to catch me for a few minutes here and there just to fellowship and talk about scripture or faith or for a quick prayer.

I enjoy the freedom I have in Jesus Christ, that I am not bound to a place and a day of the week and time. I have had 2 minute church, I have had all day church with a few Christians from chance meetings or longtime friends and family.

I've been to a home church too, and enjoyed it immensly.

And I have assembled with fellow believers over the net, too. It's not the be all and end all, but it's a wonderful new dimension in which to learn, share, and fellowship with each other.

The opportunities for the body of Christ to assemble are everywhere, if you just keep your eyes open for them.

[Bevlina]

Most unchurched people were formerly churched. They left the church because it wasn’t meeting their needs. Persuading them to return is difficult because they have a “been there, done that” attitude. Amazingly, one out of every five unchurched adults is born again — that is, they believe they will live eternally in God’s presence solely because they have confessed their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior. Yet, even those fellow saints feel no need to be in the pen with God’s other sheep.
They are not prone to be entertained at a church but would rather share their faith and attitude with other's who are like minded.
Most of them are devout students of the Bible. And, they don't form 'cults'. Instead they pray, worship and praise in fellowship with their likeminded friends.
But more often, many tend to be solitary and devote alot of time to God.

[Redneck Crow]

I was "churched" before I became a Christian. It was the biggest obstacle in my path to becoming a Christian. *laughs*

I will occasionally attend a church service for the fellowship, but sooner or later I hear some sort of statement that sets the hairs on the back of my neck straight up, and think "Wow, that is really unbiblical."

All we need do to be saved is believe in Him to be our savior and accept His grace. Other Christians are just as "saved" as I am. I just don't want to get caught up in silly doctrines.

[New_Wineskin]

I was "churched" before I became a Christian. It was the biggest obstacle in my path to becoming a Christian. *laughs*

A lot of truth in that . It is also the biggest obstacle in wanting to go back to that type of environment .

What gets me are those that ridicule me for not "going to church" . Well , if "church" meant that there is a good possibility of sitting next to people like them , why do they wonder that I forgo doing such ? By doing so , they provide the perfect reason to *not* take their "suggestion" to heart . On top of that , with that attitude , they would be the first ones to kick me out of their group once I started asking questions and not agreeing with every doctrine that they presented . I would be back where I was when they convinced me to be with them .

[ZACTAK]

Hi,

For those of you who are are unchurched I was just wondering what the reasons were as to why you are unchurched. We are currently unchurched though we have been trying to find a church for quite a while. We live a in rural area and there aren't many churches locally. Of the churches that are there 95% are Spanish speaking only and the other 5% are Catholic which is "not our type of church". How many others are finding it hard to find a church?

I have a lot of problems with Churches, I got to many twice and never returrn because of their worshipping beliefs or the vibe I get from the church. Many churches I have went to I felt a type of brainwashing effect, as though they are trying to push their ideals upon me. So it is very hard for me to find a church that I feel like I can worship God in. I am also a rare form of Christian, Disciples of Christ, similar to Protestant. I just relocated for school and the church I wanted to try out I was told not to because it is more liberal. So I am in a rut.

[chunkofcoal]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?

[WalksWithChrist]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?That's part of why I left as a teen. The church I was at was about as secular as it gets.

Another reason why I left was that my mom was in the choir and I had to watch my five-year-old brother through the entire service. He would run around the sanctuary and try to sit in the choir with mom and he refused to go to Children's Church. It was a selfish decision on my part, but at the time I felt like mom really needed to either discipline my brother and send him to kids church or at lease sit with me in the sanctuary so he would calm down. All he really wanted to do was sit with her. That's why he was so wild in church.

I never think about this much, so I'm glad this thread is here so we can sort these kinds of things out! = )

[New_Wineskin]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?

I won't say that it isn't a reason . I have discussed this with a lot of people and have never heard any of them say that they have stopped looking for a group because of that reason . I wouldn't be surprised if there are some out there , though .

I have thought of this idea . In my last 10 years in the regular institutional groups , I didn't hear one new idea from sermonizers . Also , take a look about the Christian forums ... the same old things are being discussed over and over . I have heard of 5 to 10 new things that I never heard of in my 8 years of coming to forums and chats . Most of them were due to my not being that exposed to many different types of groups .

Still , in these forums , people will post long sermon-type posts thinking that they have something drastically new but they are still more of the same . People state that one of the main reasons for "going to 'church'" is to hear the sermon . Yet , when they come to these forums , what new things do they share with the rest ?

[chunkofcoal]

I have noticed there are a few disagreements among the denominations and many threads about those few disagreements.
I have learned a few things on this forum, especially in the Messianic Judaism section. Christianity is a much richer religion than what it appears from the outside. :)

If you think the forum is full of the same old, same old - what are you interested in? Maybe we need a round table discussion of what we are studying and learning from the Bible?

[Albion]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?

Although there must be many reasons for the leaving, it appears beyond dispute that the *meat instead of milk* reason is strong. All the church statistics show it, as mainline denominations continue to shrink--and these are the social gospel and faddish ones--while the ones that are definite in what they say about God and Man are growing. This is true for a wide range of types, from Pentecostal to Cultic to Orthodox/Traditionalist in some way. Despite those differences, they are doing better because people want God, not psychology and politics, and because they want definite answers about God.

[New_Wineskin]

If you think the forum is full of the same old, same old - what are you interested in?


LOL!! That's just it ... I was interested in seeing what I was missing by being with certain types of people with a particular doctrine base . When I first became involved in forums , I found several things of interest . But , that was about it . My interest is pretty much major doctrinal ideas that people have that I haven't seen before .

[Redneck Crow]

Based on your own statements above Holly I can understand why you might have a problem finding a church whose congregation actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ !

Are you looking for a church or Jesus the Christ ? I hope you know there is a difference. I speak to you the truth in love. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."



tomedward, a bond-servant of Jesus the Christ who cares for your eternal soul.

This is one of the reasons why I don't attend a church assembly. Because I believe as tomedward does.

We each have our own beliefs, but I don't believe that we should discard the scripture because it excludes someone we love from belonging to a church assembly.

It doesn't mean that they aren't saved. It doesn't mean that they are outside of God's love. It doesn't mean that they are not our brothers and sisters in Christ, and that we should not care for their well being. It means that God has a reason to exclude some believers from His church assemblies, whether it is apparant or appealing to human wisdom or not.

It's tough. I have friends who are Christian who behave in ways that put them outside of Paul's instructions for membership in a church assembly. I've been there myself.

I realize that this is not the place to debate this, but I put this in to illustrate one of the reasons why some of us choose not to belong to church assemblies. Because we feel that many of them are unbiblical in their practices.

[GraceMan]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?

I'm also under the impression that some need to go to a church building while others don't. I personally don't need to go. I am grounded in my faith and read my bible. I also enjoy watching preachers on tv from time to time. No, I don't need the church as I've had too many bad experiences there.

G-Man

[Wisdom's Child]

I don't particularly like the sound of "un-churched", I get plenty of daily spiritual food, and serve God as a disciple at large 7 days a week. I feel that I have only grown out of Organized "buisness model" Traditional, Denominational "Brand Name" Churchianity.

I am currently a Non-Denominational Minister, with a Street Corner "Revival" Ministry, a Home bible study which is open to all comers, with a focus upon Discipleship, and teaching others to get up out of the pews and get involved in spreading God's Word.

I grew Spiritually uncomfortable with the "Hirelings in the Pulpits", the 901c3 Incorporated Buisness models, the constant drive for larger attendance numbers, seeking prostylites instead of the lost, the multi-million dollar sanctuaries that cater towards the carnal sense of success when that money could be better spent feeding and clothing the fixed income elderly, etc...

We need to get out from behind those closed doors and out into the streets and public marketplaces.

That's why I am a member of Ecclesia at Large.

[Count]

I have thought of this idea . In my last 10 years in the regular institutional groups , I didn't hear one new idea from sermonizers . Also , take a look about the Christian forums ... the same old things are being discussed over and over . I have heard of 5 to 10 new things that I never heard of in my 8 years of coming to forums and chats . Most of them were due to my not being that exposed to many different types of groups .

Still , in these forums , people will post long sermon-type posts thinking that they have something drastically new but they are still more of the same . People state that one of the main reasons for "going to 'church'" is to hear the sermon . Yet , when they come to these forums , what new things do they share with the rest ?

Wow! I was tempted to see on the top of this message if it was me who had written it, but no, it was New Wineskin. That is excatly what I think about the institutional churches. Poor them! I feel so pitty for them who are going to spend all their life in such a boring modern christian way.

[Bevlina]

Do you guys think part of the reason people are leaving churches is because the churches are feeding them milk when they want to sink their teeth into some spiritual meat?
No way! The Churches definitely feed spiritual meat! People have their own reasons for non attendance and having Home Churches.

[discernomatic]

I'm unchurched because I don't want to be restricted by membership. I can walk into any church I like and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ of all persuasions. I ocassionally pop into my local Uniting Church, Assembly of God and Catholic church.
That is one reason why I am not a member anywhere either. I can go where I want to or stay in bed one Sunday without everyone asking me where I have been. Why do churches have to meet every week? One authoritarian group (didn't know they were that bad at the beginning) did not let me have communion with them even though I was explicitly invited to that service where it would be served. After a literary blowup - I exchanged e-mails with the pastor - he asked me to stay away, so I stay away from them entirely. I only overcame that blow because of the help of a few Christian friends that go to another church.

[watchman7]

No way! The Churches definitely feed spiritual meat! People have their own reasons for non attendance and having Home Churches.

That's quite a broad statement.
Some churches do not feed spiritual meat.
Some Christians do leave the institutional church because of spiritual starvation there.

I know personally. Do you?

[WalksWithChrist]

That's quite a broad statement.
Some churches do not feed spiritual meat.
Some Christians do leave the institutional church because of spiritual starvation there.

I know personally. Do you?Some do. Some don't. I visited a great "former" Episcopalian church recently that was quite "meaty" to my great surprise. That's actually how they came to break from the organized Episcopalians apparently. Interesting!

[NJA]

How do you judge whether a chuch is meaty ?

[WalksWithChrist]

How do you judge whether a chuch is meaty ?I gues there's two kinds of "meaty" one being teaching and the other having the spiritual stuff. If a church has both, all the better!

[justonelittlelamb]

I'm unchurched because I have never made a friend at church so I just stopped going. I watch church on tv but it's just not the same. I'm going back to church as of tomarrow and am scared but i know it's something I need to do. I need to stop being shy and talk to people so I can have Christian fellowship.

[NJA]

Walks - what is meaty teaching, and what is meaty spiritual stuff, how has this church u mention become meatier that the Episcopalians ?

[WalksWithChrist]

Walks - what is meaty teaching, and what is meaty spiritual stuff,Meaty teaching being actually going through the Bible and doing some sort of in-depth study. I've been to a church that didn't do much teaching at all. Sunday school was social-hour and not much more. Meaty spiritual stuff (to me anyway!) is acknowledging the existance of the Holy Spirit in our lives and using the gifts we have been given (prayer, love and even gifts of tongues and prophecy) to further God's kingdom. how has this church u mention become meatier that the Episcopalians ?Because they focused on love, teaching and spiritual matters instead of doctrines. My friend could explain this in greater detail! I was just a visitor. But I could *feel* they had a good thing going there. = ) No, I've never been to an actual Episcopalian church...just going from what my friend was telling me.

[WalksWithChrist]

Walks - what is meaty teaching, and what is meaty spiritual stuff, how has this church u mention become meatier that the Episcopalians ?"Meaty" is just an informal word, by the way. I don't know that it has any "official" meaning whatsoever!

[NJA]

So, what did you have in mind when you said "I visited a great "former" Episcopalian church recently that was quite "meaty" to my great surprise." ?

[WalksWithChrist]

So, what did you have in mind when you said "I visited a great "former" Episcopalian church recently that was quite "meaty" to my great surprise." ?Oh! My friend's church was Episcopalian and they (meaning the pastor and most of the congregation!!) broke off and formed an independant church. = ) The new church seems quite prosperous (it's small...but that's good!) in its new life.

[New_Wineskin]

Meaty teaching being actually going through the Bible and doing some sort of in-depth study.


That sounds more like milk than meat . Doing those studies brings up the same ideas over and over again . That is one of the problems that I have with the typical group settings . They talk about getting into the "meat" but I don't hear anything new .

[watchman7]

How do you judge whether a chuch is meaty ?


This is from Gill's Commentary.

1Co 3:2 - I have fed you with milk,.... the Gospel; comparable to milk, for its purity and wholesomeness, for the nourishing virtue there is in it, and because easy of digestion; for he designs by it, the more plain and easy doctrines of the Gospel, such as babes in Christ were capable of understanding and receiving: and not with meat; the more solid doctrines of the Gospel, and sublime mysteries of grace; the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom; such truths as were attended with difficulties, to which the carnal reason of men made many objections, and so were only fit to be brought before such who are of full age, young men, or rather fathers in Christ; who have had a large experience, and a long time of improvement in spiritual knowledge, and have their senses exercised to distinguish between truth and error. The reason he gives for this his conduct is,

for hitherto ye were not able to bear it; they could not receive, relish, and digest it; it was too strong meat for them, they being weak in faith, and but babes in Christ; wherefore he prudently adapted things to their capacities, and that in perfect consistence with that faithfulness and integrity, for which he was so remarkable: for the Gospel he preached to them, which he calls "milk", was not another Gospel, or contrary to that which goes by the name of "meat": only the one consisted of truths more easily to be understood, and was delivered in a manner more suited to their capacities than the other: he adds,

neither yet now are ye able; which carries in it a charge of dulness and negligence, that they had been so long learning, and were improved no more in the knowledge of the truth; were as yet only in the alphabet of the Gospel, and needed to be afresh instructed in the first principles of the oracles of God; for anything beyond these was too high for them.


I hope this helps.

[watchman7]

That sounds more like milk than meat . Doing those studies brings up the same ideas over and over again . That is one of the problems that I have with the typical group settings . They talk about getting into the "meat" but I don't hear anything new .


Where do you find new "meat" other than the Bible?

[New_Wineskin]

Where do you find new "meat" other than the Bible?

Paul received his from the Lord .

If meat could come from the Scriptures , where are the books ? More and more people are using more aids that are on software so that they are more accessible . Yet , the same things are being said over and over . All of these scholars digging "deep" into the Scriptures and have almost nothing to show for it except a million ways of saying the same things . They do get a lot of trivia . But , trivia is less than milk - not more .

[Count]

Where do you find new "meat" other than the Bible?

Where the Lord dwells. Within us.

[WalksWithChrist]

That sounds more like milk than meat . Doing those studies brings up the same ideas over and over again . That is one of the problems that I have with the typical group settings . They talk about getting into the "meat" but I don't hear anything new .That also has a lot to do with who's teaching. And the Bible is only so long. Once you've studied it thru, then it's all repeated but that doesn't mean it's "milk" all of a sudden, right? I do know what you're saying tho. It's a challenge to make something so old new...every time! Personally, I always seem to find new eyes to see the old lessons I remember from childhood.

[WalksWithChrist]

This is from Gill's Commentary.

1Co 3:2 - I have fed you with milk,.... the Gospel; comparable to milk, for its purity and wholesomeness, for the nourishing virtue there is in it, and because easy of digestion; for he designs by it, the more plain and easy doctrines of the Gospel, such as babes in Christ were capable of understanding and receiving: and not with meat; the more solid doctrines of the Gospel, and sublime mysteries of grace; the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom; such truths as were attended with difficulties, to which the carnal reason of men made many objections, and so were only fit to be brought before such who are of full age, young men, or rather fathers in Christ; who have had a large experience, and a long time of improvement in spiritual knowledge, and have their senses exercised to distinguish between truth and error. The reason he gives for this his conduct is,

for hitherto ye were not able to bear it; they could not receive, relish, and digest it; it was too strong meat for them, they being weak in faith, and but babes in Christ; wherefore he prudently adapted things to their capacities, and that in perfect consistence with that faithfulness and integrity, for which he was so remarkable: for the Gospel he preached to them, which he calls "milk", was not another Gospel, or contrary to that which goes by the name of "meat": only the one consisted of truths more easily to be understood, and was delivered in a manner more suited to their capacities than the other: he adds,

neither yet now are ye able; which carries in it a charge of dulness and negligence, that they had been so long learning, and were improved no more in the knowledge of the truth; were as yet only in the alphabet of the Gospel, and needed to be afresh instructed in the first principles of the oracles of God; for anything beyond these was too high for them.


I hope this helps.
Yes!

[WalksWithChrist]

That sounds more like milk than meat . Doing those studies brings up the same ideas over and over again . That is one of the problems that I have with the typical group settings . They talk about getting into the "meat" but I don't hear anything new .Also, teaching will be more effective with prayer. = )

[shakingthedustoffmyfeet]

For a long time I went to First Church of the Sofa. If I did not see preaching on TV, then I did not hear it. That was exactly what I needed - for a while. Like many others, I was (am) in a small town. I taught at the local high school and just needed some privacy on the weekends.

I had Christian friends at work, and fellowship came from those relationships. I tried churches in town. Then we started going out of town, but the commute got tough after a while. Finally we found a nice church in town where we attend Sunday mornings. Then I go to church about 25 miles away for evening services.

Sometimes people need a resting spot to regain their bearings. I am glad that I could watch church services Sunday mornings and a few other shows to help me until I adjusted better to living in a small community.
:groupray: :groupray: :groupray:

[New_Wineskin]

That also has a lot to do with who's teaching. And the Bible is only so long. Once you've studied it thru, then it's all repeated but that doesn't mean it's "milk" all of a sudden, right? I do know what you're saying tho. It's a challenge to make something so old new...every time! Personally, I always seem to find new eyes to see the old lessons I remember from childhood.

I understand . Even when seeing the same thing as new again , milk is still milk . Perhaps , I am so used to meat that it is like milk to me and I need something more nourishing than meat . But , since I hear the same few things over and over again , I doubt that what is being taught is meat .

[watchman7]

Paul received his from the Lord .

If meat could come from the Scriptures , where are the books ? More and more people are using more aids that are on software so that they are more accessible . Yet , the same things are being said over and over . All of these scholars digging "deep" into the Scriptures and have almost nothing to show for it except a million ways of saying the same things . They do get a lot of trivia . But , trivia is less than milk - not more .

Ultimately, all revelation comes from the Holy Sprirt. But revelation is always in agreement with Scripture. There is more "meat" in Scripture than we can learn in a thousand lifetimes. There are many methods of study. All should be accompanied with prayer.
I agree that sometimes we do get into a lull or boredom. But we need to work through this. There's nothing compared to seeing something new in Scripture. I have had things revealed to me that I had read many times previously with no impression.
There are many study aids out there to help in your growth. Perhaps we might share the name of some of those "books".
The ultimate purpose of revelation, of course, is application.

[WalksWithChrist]

Ultimately, all revelation comes from the Holy Sprirt. But revelation is always in agreement with Scripture. There is more "meat" in Scripture than we can learn in a thousand lifetimes. There are many methods of study. All should be accompanied with prayer.
I agree that sometimes we do get into a lull or boredom. But we need to work through this. There's nothing compared to seeing something new in Scripture. I have had things revealed to me that I had read many times previously with no impression.
There are many study aids out there to help in your growth. Perhaps we might share the name of some of those "books".
The ultimate purpose of revelation, of course, is application.Wow. Great post. = )

[discernomatic]

Ultimately, all revelation comes from the Holy Sprirt. But revelation is always in agreement with Scripture. There is more "meat" in Scripture than we can learn in a thousand lifetimes. There are many methods of study. All should be accompanied with prayer.
I agree that sometimes we do get into a lull or boredom. But we need to work through this. There's nothing compared to seeing something new in Scripture. I have had things revealed to me that I had read many times previously with no impression....

The ultimate purpose of revelation, of course, is application.
Super post! :thumbsup: I think that God shows us what we need or what he wants us to have at the right moment. He is always right on track. I agree that the new knowledge must be applied, usually right away. If he sends encouragement, it is always for the actual situation. I believe that that is how the Holy Spirit works.

It is sometimes hard to find others that explain things this way. Sometimes they look at me as if I were from another planet if I say that the Holy Spirit works in the way that you described. It is as if the words jump off of the page at you and have a new meaning that you never saw before. It goes click, and all of the puzzle pieces fall into place. Especially after many days in prayer about a certain subject this is like cool water in the desert. Or like meat (and potatoes) after subsisting on milk. Yum, yum! :yum:

discernomatic

[New_Wineskin]

Ultimately, all revelation comes from the Holy Sprirt. But revelation is always in agreement with Scripture.


Even if that is true ( the Scriptures appear to indicate the opposite to me ) , since none can tell the difference between what the Scriptures say and what they *think* that the Scriptures say , yes , the Lord can contradict what one is convinced that the Scriptures say . Also , that line of thinking places the Lord under one's concept of the Scriptures making one's thinking higher than the Holy Spirit . This very subject is given in the Scriptures when the Lord gave a vision to Peter and , when He told Peter to do something , Peter told Him "No!" because the Scriptures were to be obeyed .


There is more "meat" in Scripture than we can learn in a thousand lifetimes.


Really ? Could you name me 20 new ideas presented to the Christian world in the last 10 years ? We have the internet and software with huge resources that can present information rather quickly . And , there are thousands upon thousands of people searching the Scriptures for this meat . Surely , with the millions of sermons that have been presented in the last 10 years , 20 ideas out of those thousand lifetimes should have stuck out that have never been recorded before and accepted by the Christian communty as a whole . I am only asking for 20 completely new concepts from all of those experts with all of that time on their hands and all of those resources available . That isn't asking for much .



There are many methods of study. All should be accompanied with prayer.
I agree that sometimes we do get into a lull or boredom. But we need to work through this. There's nothing compared to seeing something new in Scripture. I have had things revealed to me that I had read many times previously with no impression.


And , yet , people only write about the same few things in the forums . Yes , things are made *anew* . But , actually *new* ... rarely from the Scriptures .



There are many study aids out there to help in your growth. Perhaps we might share the name of some of those "books".
The ultimate purpose of revelation, of course, is application.

As this subject brings , Paul's simple concept of the Law is still not being applied . The Scriptures are still being looked at as the Pharasees looked at them and as the Jewish believers who wanted circumcism looked at them . Perhaps , ignoring such a basic concept that Paul wrote much about has kept the meat from being served .

[WalksWithChrist]

Really ? Could you name me 20 new ideas presented to the Christian world in the last 10 years ? We have the internet and software with huge resources that can present information rather quickly . And , there are thousands upon thousands of people searching the Scriptures for this meat . Surely , with the millions of sermons that have been presented in the last 10 years , 20 ideas out of those thousand lifetimes should have stuck out that have never been recorded before and accepted by the Christian communty as a whole . I am only asking for 20 completely new concepts from all of those experts with all of that time on their hands and all of those resources available . That isn't asking for muchI hear you looking for the "new" but my experiences in life and spirit all tell me that the only things that really matter are things that are very old. Things like love. If you need 20 new ideas, then the Internet is certainly the place to find them, but don't forget that you'll always be led back to the basics. = )

[discernomatic]

Even if that is true ( the Scriptures appear to indicate the opposite to me ) , since none can tell the difference between what the Scriptures say and what they *think* that the Scriptures say , yes , the Lord can contradict what one is convinced that the Scriptures say . Also , that line of thinking places the Lord under one's concept of the Scriptures making one's thinking higher than the Holy Spirit . This very subject is given in the Scriptures when the Lord gave a vision to Peter and , when He told Peter to do something , Peter told Him "No!" because the Scriptures were to be obeyed.
Hi New Wineskin,
You were not writing to me, but I think that I may be able to clarify something. Watchman7 said that all revelation comes from the Holy Spirit and is backed up by Scripture. I believe this too, if it is taken into consideration that the revelation has been checked with Scripture, but most people don't seem to want to bother with that.

I have seen too many examples in Pentecostal or Charismatic environments where one person prophesied loudly that another, mentioned by name, would have their prayers answered and would improve in certain areas of their life etc. It was apparent to all and well known what that person's problems were, so that any observant medium could have said the same. In those cases, I think that the ones that gave the prophecies gave it from themselves and not from God, even when it was done in a well meaning way. Those prophecies are not real, and even though they may accidentally edify someone, I think that they should not be permitted. Usually it is the same person or people that do that sort of thing every Sunday and you can see by their physical agitation and/or rapture that a prophecy fit is coming on. Those cases do not, in my opinion, involve true revelation from the Holy Spirit.

Also, Peter had not fully understood what Jesus tried to teach him, that unclean things do not come from the outside of a man but from his own heart. He obeyed God's command when the Holy Spirit made this clear to him - a direct revelation from God, in line with what Jesus taught. Those that say no to what part of what the Scriptures say, may still be immature in that area and have not had the "Ah ha!" experience in that area of scriptural knowledge yet. They may still be somewhat raw and legalistic. Peter eventually did the right thing, going against the grain of his comfortable doctrines, showing that he really was interested in what God wanted, not what he himself wanted. I find it a bit cheeky to argue with God directly rather than another human being, (God didn't stike him down for it so it can't have been too bad) but as long as he did the right thing in the end, that is what counts. Jonah had been in the same boat, too. Paul also had to tell Peter that he was wrong in the circumcision issue and prove it. I have been in that position too. Someone with greater wisdom told me the difference between what I thought the Scriptures were saying and what they really were saying. At first I was a bit sceptical, but wanting to know the truth of the matter I approached God with it and got entrenched in the Scriptures. After much prayer and searching came the "Ah, ha!" from the Holy Spirit and after that everything was clear and I wondered to myself why I had not seen that before, it must have been so apparent.

The problem comes when we do not question what others call revelation, and do not search the matter and ourselves deeply enough. It can come when we are not trying to be honest with ourselves, others or God and choose to believe in traditions or doctrines that we consider to be correct because they are convenient, like a security blanket. Some search for illusions and spiritual experiences and revelations and do not ask themselves if they are from God, they are so out to please themselves.

Only someone who is sceptical enough not to accept everything right away, but open enough to be willing to search for, find and accept the truth in the Scriptures and through prayer, I think, can really avoid the revelational pitfalls and false doctrines that are out there. He must be willing to accept what the Holy Spirit finally tells him and accept correction by Him whether it agrees with his original views or not. This is called discernment and should be practiced by all Christians whenever necessary. Even then, due to lack of knowledge and experience it is still possible to fall into a few pits, but not into as many as those that do not practice it.

discernomatic

[Count]

I hear you looking for the "new" but my experiences in life and spirit all tell me that the only things that really matter are things that are very old. Things like love. If you need 20 new ideas, then the Internet is certainly the place to find them, but don't forget that you'll always be led back to the basics. = )

Yes we need something new, not 20, not 30 not 100 hundred, just one. We need to become new wineskin, because only the new wineskin can hold the new wine which is Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, Christians today look like the old wineskin. Some think that their wineskin needs to be repared, but no, there is no other way of holding the new wine apart from becoming new wineskin.

Another thing that I want to say is that Christians today look after things in Christianity. They seek after things like love, patience, grace and so on, but this is not real Christianity. What we need is only Christ since He is All in All. Some may say that yeah we need Christ but..... No there is no but. All we need is Christ, without a but. And do you know where we could find that Christ? It is strange enough that if Christians were asked where we could find Christ, mostly of them would show us the Bible. Well, I don't argue that we can find Christ in the Bible, but the problem is that very few know that first and foremost, we can find Christ where he dwells, within us.

[Count]

You were not writing to me, but I think that I may be able to clarify something. Watchman7 said that all revelation comes from the Holy Spirit and is backed up by Scripture. I believe this too, if it is taken into consideration that the revelation has been checked with Scripture, but most people don't seem to want to bother with that.

How is it explained that 99% of what the church practice today is completely unscriptural? Churches doday claim that they do everything according to scriptures, but how true is this?

The main problem with scriptures is that we use them as the Tree of Knowledge instead of using them as the Tree of Life. We use them to nurture our soul, our flesh, instead of nurturing our spirit. Have a look at the conditions of the church and see the results of such a mentality with the scriptures.

[New_Wineskin]

I hear you looking for the "new" but my experiences in life and spirit all tell me that the only things that really matter are things that are very old. Things like love. If you need 20 new ideas, then the Internet is certainly the place to find them, but don't forget that you'll always be led back to the basics. = )

I am not looking for the "new" nor do I "need" 20 new things . I asked for 20 things becuase that should be easily obtained if the meat is actually in the Scriptures and so many experts are looking for it and there is supposedly an inexhaustable amount of meat in the Scriptures . I have been looking on the net for the past 10 years and have found some new things but they were only new to me since I had limited understanding of what others out there thought . Even so , those new things were not accepted by any great majority of the experts as meat would be .

I agree that studying the Scriptures leads back to the basics . That is the main reason why I stated that I didn't consider meat to be in them . When I studied the Scriptures , I would see a lot of things but , many times , they would not mesh with each other . So , I stopped studying and decided to simply converse with the Lord most of the time . *Then* , He showed me how things meshed or didn't mesh . And , they meshed only by looking through the basics . This led me to consider that , since the Scriptures all came back to the milk , that is all they are .

[New_Wineskin]

We agree on much but disagree on the one point .


Hi New Wineskin,
You were not writing to me, but I think that I may be able to clarify something. Watchman7 said that all revelation comes from the Holy Spirit and is backed up by Scripture. I believe this too, if it is taken into consideration that the revelation has been checked with Scripture, but most people don't seem to want to bother with that.


I consider that W7 was saying something like that but was indicating more that meat was in the Scriptures as in all meat because they replied to my post about my not considering that studying the Scriptures was for obtaining meat . I agree that the Holy Spirit brings revelation . But , what about your idea of checking revelation with the Scriptures ? As I said , Peter told the Lord "no" three times when the Lord told Peter to do something . Peter knew that he was talking with the Lord but decided that his concept of the Scriptures was to be considered as a higher authority . I know that you bring this up later .



I have seen too many examples in Pentecostal or Charismatic environments where one person prophesied loudly that another, mentioned by name, would have their prayers answered and would improve in certain areas of their life etc. It was apparent to all and well known what that person's problems were, so that any observant medium could have said the same. In those cases, I think that the ones that gave the prophecies gave it from themselves and not from God, even when it was done in a well meaning way. Those prophecies are not real, and even though they may accidentally edify someone, I think that they should not be permitted. Usually it is the same person or people that do that sort of thing every Sunday and you can see by their physical agitation and/or rapture that a prophecy fit is coming on. Those cases do not, in my opinion, involve true revelation from the Holy Spirit.


Ok . There are problems inherent in both P/C groups and non-P/C groups with regards to things . I look at the number of deaths at the hands of non-PC people because of their view of the Scriptures . And , there is no difference between someone's view of the Scriptures and the Scriptures , themselves . How you look at them is how you look at them .



Also, Peter had not fully understood what Jesus tried to teach him, that unclean things do not come from the outside of a man but from his own heart. He obeyed God's command when the Holy Spirit made this clear to him - a direct revelation from God, in line with what Jesus taught.


The Lord said to do something and he said "no , Lord" . That was a direct command from the Lord . He later obeyed because he was still pondering it and was open as you later state . However , it was still a clear indication that , at the time , he considered his understanding of the Scriptures ( which *were* the Scriptures as far as he knew ) outweighed the Lord's command . And , the idea of not doing anything the Lord tells them unless one can straighten it out with their own mind and understanding of the Scriptures is telling Him that He must go through the hoops of their understanding and the Scriptures . People have rigid defined doctrines that they assume are air-tight with the Scriptures . People would automatically say that the Lord could not be speaking if it contradicts one of those doctrines .



Those that say no to what part of what the Scriptures say, may still be immature in that area and have not had the "Ah ha!" experience in that area of scriptural knowledge yet. They may still be somewhat raw and legalistic. Peter eventually did the right thing, going against the grain of his comfortable doctrines, showing that he really was interested in what God wanted, not what he himself wanted. I find it a bit cheeky to argue with God directly rather than another human being, (God didn't stike him down for it so it can't have been too bad) but as long as he did the right thing in the end, that is what counts.


Hey . I have no problem with Peter . I consider that he did something far more than most Christians and he is to be commended for his overal part ( until he had them water baptized ) . They would throw the Lord's suggestion out and slam the door . This , even though we have this very good example .


Jonah had been in the same boat, too. Paul also had to tell Peter that he was wrong in the circumcision issue and prove it. I have been in that position too. Someone with greater wisdom told me the difference between what I thought the Scriptures were saying and what they really were saying. At first I was a bit sceptical, but wanting to know the truth of the matter I approached God with it and got entrenched in the Scriptures. After much prayer and searching came the "Ah, ha!" from the Holy Spirit and after that everything was clear and I wondered to myself why I had not seen that before, it must have been so apparent.


In many ways , we have similar experiences .



The problem comes when we do not question what others call revelation, and do not search the matter and ourselves deeply enough. It can come when we are not trying to be honest with ourselves, others or God and choose to believe in traditions or doctrines that we consider to be correct because they are convenient, like a security blanket. Some search for illusions and spiritual experiences and revelations and do not ask themselves if they are from God, they are so out to please themselves.


With this I could not write it better . However , I simply look to the Spirit to search the matter . People can rig a revelation with the Scriptures with enough knots to look legitimate . Also , one can deny any revelation through the same procedure . It is , as you say , a question of being honest with one's self and being honest with the Lord . I simply do not consider the Scriptures as an automatically necessary part of the equation .


Only someone who is sceptical enough not to accept everything right away, but open enough to be willing to search for, find and accept the truth in the Scriptures and through prayer, I think, can really avoid the revelational pitfalls