Legalism

[Blueskies]

As a Messianic Jew raised in the Corps, I have some concerns. I'm going to put on my kevlar before I voice them, so please feel free to be honest.:sorry:

Where do we draw the line on legalism? I hear many MJ's in discussion over covering of a woman's hair and how to dress, etc. (Sound a lot like the Corinthians, come to think of it.) I try not to engage in these discussions because they seem to be of lesser importance to me. What I don't hear discussion over is the salvation of our brethren's souls. The only church I have ever seen that truly had that goal in mind was SA.

So, now I'm stuck. I'm not interested in getting mired down in the minutia of Torah when faced with the need for discussion of salvation. On the other hand, there are a few core beliefs that I currently hold which are unshakable, and in my opinion, not open for compromise (i.e, sabbath, kosher, etc.)

To me, the answer to everything is Messiah, and him crucified. Everything else has to fall in line underneath of that. I currently don't attend a congregation because the nearest messianic congregation is an hour away. That's a long way to drive on a sabbath.

Any thoughts?

[Andy Broadley]

This deserves a more theological and intelectual replyn than I can supply, but here's my twopenneth for what it's worth. Feel free to add the correct Scriptural references.

I was very interested in your third paragraph where you said you didn'y want to get tied down in minutae. There is a passage in the Gopals where Jesus really lays into the Pharisees for using the Torah and it's rules to tie people up in knots.

You go on to say that the answer to it all is Messiah. Jesus would certainly agree with you on that. As He says; 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'

So, far from being stuck, you are completely on track and in step with Jesus. There is nothing at all wrong with holding things like the Sabbath as beyond compromise, as long as we remember they are made for man, not the other way round.

[julian the apostate]

an anglican butting in and out

personally

Where do we draw the line on legalism?

at the law,,
we are dead to the law,
if there was a law that could make us righteous christ died in vain

a little bit of yeast

on the other hand if it troubles your conscience to wear or not wear something or whatever, that is between you and God

if there be any command it is fullfilled by love

My dear children, let's not just talk about love; let's practice real love. 19This is the only way we'll know we're living truly, living in God's reality. 20It's also the way to shut down debilitating self-criticism, even when there is something to it. For God is greater than our worried hearts and knows more about us than we do ourselves.

[Andy Broadley]

Yea....that's what I meant to say, but left brain cell in other jacket today;)

[julian the apostate]

personally i think it is one of the things that makes christianity unique

i remember at times in my life thinking what makes me different from any other religious person,,moslem buddhist whatever
that i believe jesus is the son of god come in the flesh
yes
that there are certain commands i give more importance to than they would , maybe
that i am smarter,, no
that i am more moral ,, no

so is the only basic difference that i believe christ has come in the flesh? no

one more, existential difference, a difference of praxis as well

i am dead to the law

i am adopted i am made right already i am forgiven
i am made a partaker of the divine nature
what law could bring that about , what law could keep me in that?

[Blueskies]

I don't mean to imply that I don't believe the law has validity. Messiah did not come to abolish the law, but to complete it. He himself was a Jew who followed torah, obeyed kosher, and observed the days and times.

But of course, man cannot be saved by the law, only by the blood of Messiah.

I mean to say that it seems as if the focus, not just for MJ's but for most congregations, has changed from saving the soul to directing the person. For MJ's it's Torah, but for many congregations it's the confession principle, or G-12, or Purpose Driven, etc, etc, etc. All of a sudden preachers aren't preaching salvation, they're preaching works.

I feel so small in the face of what a huge problem this has become. Is there anything that can be done, or is the church (using this term loosely) too far gone?

[Evangelina]

It's an age-old problem, isn't it - balancing works and faith. I think it's important to grow as a christian, but Paul had it right when he wrote,
If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. (1 Cor 13:3)
Growing its people in God's love - I think that really needs to be a church's mission on Sundays. For the rest of the week, I believe, the focus needs to be on giving that love to others.

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

What Flame said was right - the whole chapter of 1 Cor 13 is a pretty good one to look at.

My mum always says, 'what would Jesus do', and I think i've elaborated on it a bit more over time.

If my 'laws of God' are preventing me from loving people, and serving them as Jesus has asked me to, then I think I have to start asking God what's more important to Him.

It's a tough balance, but I think so long as you're being sensitive and loving people, whilst being obedient to the various 'laws' of Christianity (I'm sorry for using the word 'law', but after work, I'm less likely to be able to do a proper thesaurus of words!), then it's okay. If one prevents the other from happening, then there's a problem...

Keep focussing on what Jesus said in the Bible, and I think you'll be halfway there!

Sasch

[Abiel]

Hi there Blueskies!

I think the issue you have brought up is not unique to the SA or MJ- it's a thing which Christians have struggled with since the beginning. We know we are saved by faith, yet we are taught that faith without works is dead. And the SA is a holiness movement, just to complicate things. Holiness is the work of the spirit within us, and yet we must cooperate, and learn how. I guess thats why there used to be the much stricter catagories of holiness meeting and salvation meeting each sunday- and praise meeting too. Getting all bases covered in one day! And yet that too became legalistic for some.

The new SA youth thingy (ooo I'm so educated!) ALOVE has 4 strands-worship, discipleship,mission, and social action. Each believer needs to carefully keep things in balance, but it is a challenge that never goes away. I am in a distinctly 'works' phase of my journey- but since I have just started a new job, that is not too surprising. I have to be very careful to keep it all in balance.

Sometimes though, I think God speaks to us about our own calling through discontent. Perhaps God is calling you specifically to mission. That may be why you feel so passionate about it, and feel it is not emphasised enough. I have a calling to intercessory prayer, and used to get terribly frustrated that everyone wasn't wanting to set up all night prayer meetings every week! I was accused of being 'so heavenly minded I was of no earthly use'. Unfair, but I was being a terrific nag about intercession.

Relax and pray, and God will show you your way.

[Blueskies]

Well, at this point I don't think I've escalated to nag, but I do believe the propensity for it is there. LOL. I have been listening to a favorite evangelist of mine, and his message to over the radio started saying, "We must get back to the cross and him crucified." So I thought, "Well, yes, of course." and went on about my day.

When it began to be every day that I got in the car he was pounding in to me the same message, I said, "Father, what are you trying to say?" Eventually, it finally got through, and now I'm saying, "YES! Of course!!"

My calling, if it is to be called that, is to try to remove the evil from the seed. The seed is, of course, the good news of the kingdom spread throughout the world. My initial prayer was, "What is this evil?" I believe I have received my answer.

Now, I don't know what to do. (It's interesting to me that the spirit has brought me back to the one place where I began to know him (that is, the SA) to ask this question. )

How do we know when the object of faith has been transferred from the sacrifice to the law, or the g-12, or whatever group/meeting/organization/preacher/church, etc., and how do we help others back?

Thanks for putting your brain cells to this. It's good to know I'm not seeing this alone. It's also good to know that at least one church body on this planet has not strayed from the straight and narrow. (Please tell me that the SA is not following purpose driven!)

Shalom.

Blue

[julian the apostate]

blueskies<<I mean to say that it seems as if the focus, not just for MJ's but for most congregations, has changed from saving the soul to directing the person. For MJ's it's Torah, but for many congregations it's the confession principle, or G-12, or Purpose Driven, etc, etc, etc. All of a sudden preachers aren't preaching salvation, they're preaching works.

I feel so small in the face of what a huge problem this has become. Is there anything that can be done, or is the church (using this term loosely) too far gone?"""


that was such a good post blueskies,that i had to repeat it

thanks

[Blueskies]

Julian,

I liked what you said about how congregations have gone from saving the soul to directing the person. It took a great deal of surrender for me to come to the point where I could admit that nothing I could DO is going to get me into the kingdom. All I can do is believe. Believe that he came, that he died as the sacrificial lamb, and that this action allows me, by my belief, to be passed over for judgement when the time comes.

I think it is vital that we, as believers, begin to teach others to follow the faith and believe in the sacrifice. Directing the person is no good if they are walking around in sin. Everyone has the same problem! SIN! And there is still only one answer! Messiah!!!!

[wobbly]

Hiya Blueskies. As a Gentile :) I probably miss most of the finer points of the law but from what I can tell:

- salvation is by grace through faith- not of works Eph 2:8 ... so even if you do want to follow the law, make sure that you keep it in its place. Its a response to a gracious and loving God who has saved you. It should never be seen as a way of making you ok to God. I think you've probably got this right, but its too critical point not to mention.

- even though Jesus kept the law, he kept it in its place, and his application of it was not one of worrying about the finer points, but of applying the principles. Read the gospels to find out how Jesus did it. He'll show you what to do much better than I can point it out.

Martin

[Blueskies]

I suppose for me in the long run, the question becomes this: How do we take the help others take the focus of their faith from works (whether purpose driven or prayer of jabez) and refocus it on the cross and him crucified? How do we stop discussing how best to keep the law and start discussing how best to reach out to others?

I know that MJ's, from my experience, have become afraid of being judged and have learned to ingest and hope the father puts people in their path. I think maybe we all ought to be doing more! We need to lift up him, and he will draw people unto us!!!

Right?

[cenimo]

Blueskies

(I'm not SA but they're friendly and let us post here :) )
I think this fits in with your question in the OP.

My wife is in at group at church called Daughters of the King. For a reading project they read Streams of Living Water by Richard J. Foster.

from that book:
It is critical that we learn to discern between primary and secondary issues if we are to keep from majoring in minor matters. Old-fashioned common sense is sufficient to show us the difference in most cases, but the following principle can also help: the closer the issue comes to the heart of the Christ event - Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection - the more it becomes a matter of primary importance. Using that standard, we see that if we are discussing the book of Job is literal history or a literary device to teach religious truth, we are considering a matter of secondary importance -important certainly, but secondary. But if we are discussing Jesus' resurrection from the dead, we are addressing an issue of primary importance, for it is right at the heart of the Christ event.

[Abiel]

I suppose for me in the long run, the question becomes this: How do we take the help others take the focus of their faith from works (whether purpose driven or prayer of jabez) and refocus it on the cross and him crucified? How do we stop discussing how best to keep the law and start discussing how best to reach out to others?

Right?

Yes you are right. But I wonder if that which you are calling law might be the fruit of the church?

Primarily we are save to save ( Booth's phrase-I know God does the saving- but you know what I mean- sharing the good news) but how are we to share? Ok so words are needed. But when we share the words, what is the measure that the unbeliever can use to assess the truth/point/affect of those words? I reckon it might be that the lifestyle we adhere to, the service we engage in, is attractive.

I may be totally misunderstanding, but it seems to me that this is your passion and calling. You, perhaps, are an evangelist first and foremost. Go for it!

[Athanasian Creed]

I suppose for me in the long run, the question becomes this: How do we take the help others take the focus of their faith from works (whether purpose driven or prayer of jabez) and refocus it on the cross and him crucified? How do we stop discussing how best to keep the law and start discussing how best to reach out to others?

(snip)




Really when it comes down to it - all this 'Purpose Driven', 'G-12', 'Prayer of Jabez' methodology is nothing more than new-age, feel-good SELFISM pyschobabble period which, unfortunately has crept into the Church by perhaps well-meaning folk but deceived folk nevertheless.

You're right - it is Jesus first and foremost and Him crucified. It is when we are humble that we are exalted, it's when we lose our life for His sake and the gospel that we find it !! It is when we realize our utter worthlessness in God's sight do we begin to truly live as He desires us. Anyone who has a real encounter with the Living God can not help but feel small and insignificant - it is HIS love and by HIS grace only by which we have salvation - it is not because we were worthy of His saving us - on the contrary. "While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8)..."Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6)

The key, IMO, is to get people out of the mindset that permeates so much of what is called "Christianity" today - an emphasis on self - me, me, me ! It all starts with what is being preached in the pulpits of our churches - is it really Biblical and Christ-centered/focused or is it just new age religion dressed in Christian clothing. If it is, it is just "another jesus", "another gospel" from "another spirit" that the Apostle Paul warned against (2 Cor. 11:4) We know from Scripture that things will go from bad to worse as apostasy increases (as it has for 2,000 years, even since the time of the Apostles) but we have His precious promise from His INFALLIBLE Word -

Isaiah 59:19 (b) ... When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him - Christ, our Rock, our fortress and our help in times of trouble !! :preach::bow:



Ray :wave:

[cygnusx1]

Yea....that's what I meant to say, but left brain cell in other jacket today;)


http://www.hwcn.org/link/hmm/nkn/images/NoCaresOval035.jpg :wave: