Savior AND Lord?

[Reformationist]

I just read something in someone's profile. I do not wish for the person to claim it as a part of their profile as my goal is not to single anyone out or offend them in any way. The only reason I cite this is because I see very similar statements made by Christians of every denomination and age.

The entry was, "I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at age 7, but for 12 years thereafter I was backslidden."

Now, the thing that confuses me is that "accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior," in my understanding, must result in a changed life. The change does not have to be an overnight change from violent heathen to godly minister and professor of the faith but if it doesn't result in a changed life for X number of years then, so far as I can determine, the acceptance was either spurious or worthless.

I have always known that there are Christians who desire the Lord as Savior but refuse Him as Lord.

My question to you is, do you believe that a claim of accepting Jesus as your Savior is justifiable if it doesn't result in a changed life until years later?

Again, I mean no disrespect to the member who makes this claim in their profile. I simply wish to know other's opinions on a profession of faith vs. a possession of faith.

Additionally, I think it would be rather pointless to make the claim that "accepting Jesus as my personal Savior" is fine as long as it is a reference to simply praying a prayer or going forward at an altar call or something to that effect. I am simply trying to find out if other Christians believe that a profession of faith that doesn't result in a verifiable change in one's life until years later should be considered a true acceptance of Christ as Savior.

Thanks for your time.

God bless

[ischus]

Great post. I totally agree. What is a Christian, really, if not a disciple of their master and Lord?

[Reformationist]

Great post. I totally agree. What is a Christian, really, if not a disciple of their master and Lord?

Exactly. And what is a disciple if not a disciplined and committed follower of God? In my opinion, one who is "backslidden" immediately following their profession of faith and remain so for years have not actually accepted the Lord as their Savior.

Thanks for your response. :)

God bless

[Tavita]

I totally agree. There is no true salvation without true repentance, and if the life is not showing any change or fruit, then there has been no repentance, or turning from sin. You cannot simply pray the sinners prayer with no repentance and think you've been saved.


(Luk 3:8) "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

(Luk 15:7) "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

(Luk 24:47) and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

(Mat 7:20) "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

[The Lord is my banner]

I think sometimes a person can only comprehend a small part of the gospel, and comes to Christ on the basis of their very limited understanding. Many children must fit into this category, although I realise some little ones do have greater understanding than many adults.

Growth may come soon after, if they are in an environment which waters and protects that new seed of faith, but many don't have that good nurture immediately available, and may not be sufficiently aware of their needs to know how to find their own way.

It may be years later that they are challenged, and begin to seek further understanding, or come into contact with Spirit-filled Christians, then gradually realise that their own commitment is incomplete.

If their coming to the Lord all that time ago was a genuine step, they are now ready to walk further.
If they persistently turn away from the Lord's call to come closer, away from deeper commitment, away from Christians who try to encourage them to grow, then maybe it wasn't genuine in the first place. But that is for God alone to judge at the appointed time, not me.

It is a process for us all anyway: we are all constantly being called by God to come closer, to be more like Jesus, surrender more fully, and we all face choices every day on whether we will obey or rebel against this call.

We live by faith, moment by moment, dependent on God for every breath.
We are saved according to our cry to God through Jesus Christ, and He knows His own and is mighty to save.
We are secure in Him, but none of us has yet "arrived" that we can look back smugly and judge a "younger" brother or sister.

We can watch out for these Christians who are stuck in the early stage, without anyone to guide and teach them.
We are here on this site to come alongside others, just as we are in our homes, work places, churches.

God bless, Susana

[julian the apostate]

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.



27“The owner's servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

[FaithAlone]

I can see the point about the child having limited understanding and realizing that Christ is his/her Savior but not grasping every aspect of what it means to be a Christian. In my life I didn't consider myself a Christian until I realized that I needed Christ as both my Savior and Lord. I really don't know exactly what I think about this one.

[The Lord is my banner]

I can see the point about the child having limited understanding and realizing that Christ is his/her Savior but not grasping every aspect of what it means to be a Christian. In my life I didn't consider myself a Christian until I realized that I needed Christ as both my Savior and Lord. I really don't know exactly what I think about this one.

The Lord knows who is His, and in the case of someone having limited understanding they may be muddled but He isn't!
The Lord knows from eternity which ones will cling to Him, and will bring us whichever route is going to get us there! It doesn't matter that we don't understand it all, so long as we keep following the light we can see.

Blessings, Susana

[ptgd1st]

Remember that it is not for us to judge what is in ones heart. That is between them and the Lord. With that said, you would expect to see a change (fruit of the spirit) in ones life after accepting Jesus. A change in attitude and actions. So in the worldly view it definately would be hard to accept.

[The Lord is my banner]

Remember that it is not for us to judge what is in ones heart. That is between them and the Lord. With that said, you would expect to see a change (fruit of the spirit) in ones life after accepting Jesus. A change in attitude and actions. So in the worldly view it definately would be hard to accept.


Good point; we can't judge the heart, but fruit is for all to see.

When you plant an apple tree the fruit will follow the next year.
If you plant a seed, it's many years before the fruit is borne. But they are productive years even so.

There are things we can do to help a new or lapsed Christian get growing, but mostly I'm sure it's a combination of the Lord giving the increase and the young "plant" having the capacity to respond.

God bless, Susana

[Knight]

I just read something in someone's profile. I do not wish for the person to claim it as a part of their profile as my goal is not to single anyone out or offend them in any way. The only reason I cite this is because I see very similar statements made by Christians of every denomination and age.

The entry was, "I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at age 7, but for 12 years thereafter I was backslidden."

Now, the thing that confuses me is that "accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior," in my understanding, must result in a changed life. The change does not have to be an overnight change from violent heathen to godly minister and professor of the faith but if it doesn't result in a changed life for X number of years then, so far as I can determine, the acceptance was either spurious or worthless.

I would agree with this..... To a degree. It is possible to be stagnant in your growth while not being "backslidden." Such would describe me during at least a couple years of college.

Remember that a true profession of faith in Christ is a fruit of regeneration. A changed life is only natural after that. The rate of growth may be quite slow.

I have always known that there are Christians who desire the Lord as Savior but refuse Him as Lord.

This would be the cultural Christian.

My question to you is, do you believe that a claim of accepting Jesus as your Savior is justifiable if it doesn't result in a changed life until years later?

To some degree, yes. This would depend on the situation. It could be deep rooted sin issues or simple ignorance hindering growth.

Don't misunderstand, I agree with you in principle but each situation is unique. It is not for me to say wether that person was truly regenerated when they declared faith even though it may take years to see any real growth.

Does this make any sense?

Additionally, I think it would be rather pointless to make the claim that "accepting Jesus as my personal Savior" is fine as long as it is a reference to simply praying a prayer or going forward at an altar call or something to that effect. I am simply trying to find out if other Christians believe that a profession of faith that doesn't result in a verifiable change in one's life until years later should be considered a true acceptance of Christ as Savior.

Would this situation give me cause to wonder? Yes.
However, I would be the last one to make any judgements apart from blatant rejection of the gospel in word or deed.

Again, am I making any sense?

[Reformationist]

I totally agree. There is no true salvation without true repentance, and if the life is not showing any change or fruit, then there has been no repentance, or turning from sin. You cannot simply pray the sinners prayer with no repentance and think you've been saved.


(Luk 3:8) "Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

(Luk 15:7) "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

(Luk 24:47) and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

(Mat 7:20) "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Great post Tavita. I completely agree.

God bless

[Reformationist]

I think sometimes a person can only comprehend a small part of the gospel, and comes to Christ on the basis of their very limited understanding.

What do you mean "comes to Christ?" Do you mean "submits to Christ?"

Many children must fit into this category, although I realise some little ones do have greater understanding than many adults.

While I agree that our comprehension of the Gospel is vital to our growth as Christians, it seems as if you are saying that a person's understanding of the Gospel is the definitive agent in whether they come to Christ. Is that what you believe?

Growth may come soon after, if they are in an environment which waters and protects that new seed of faith, but many don't have that good nurture immediately available, and may not be sufficiently aware of their needs to know how to find their own way.

I understand. Very good point.

It may be years later that they are challenged, and begin to seek further understanding, or come into contact with Spirit-filled Christians, then gradually realise that their own commitment is incomplete.

So your position on this is that you believe a profession of faith at a young age can truly be genuine even if it doesn't produce the fruit of a believer until 12 years later?

If their coming to the Lord all that time ago was a genuine step, they are now ready to walk further.

That's kind of the point of my question. I'm not asking people to judge whether a person truly accepted Christ at a young age. I'm asking if you all think that "acceptance" was genuine if it didn't produce the proper fruit until years later. For instance, let's say that I was your husband and I said, "I truly love you" and then proceded, for the next 12 years, to treat you as someone I hated rather than in keeping with my profession of love. Would you think my profession of love to you was true?

If they persistently turn away from the Lord's call to come closer, away from deeper commitment, away from Christians who try to encourage them to grow, then maybe it wasn't genuine in the first place.

I'd say 12 years of turning away from the Lord in rebellion is pretty persistant, wouldn't you?

But that is for God alone to judge at the appointed time, not me.

Really? How can we, as Christians, help others to lead a more obedient life if we cannot make judgements as to whether their professions of faith are genuine? I am aware of no mandate in the Bible that prohibits us from judging whether someone's faith is genuine? In fact, James clearly states that our profession of faith is justified (shown to be true) by our works. If no one judges the authenticity of a profession of faith, to whom is our profession of faith proved genuine?

It is a process for us all anyway: we are all constantly being called by God to come closer, to be more like Jesus, surrender more fully, and we all face choices every day on whether we will obey or rebel against this call.

I completely agree. If you had known someone for 12 years who never lived as if God ruled their life would you presume that they had been a Christian for the time you had known them?

We live by faith, moment by moment, dependent on God for every breath.

But what if our lives never display an awareness of this? Can we assume that faith that never acknowledges its dependence upon God a true and living faith that has saved us?

We are saved according to our cry to God through Jesus Christ, and He knows His own and is mighty to save.

What do you mean we are saved according to our cry to God through Jesus Christ? :confused: Do you mean that our cry to God through Jesus Christ is the basis for our salvation?

We are secure in Him, but none of us has yet "arrived" that we can look back smugly and judge a "younger" brother or sister.

I agree pride should not motivate us to judge the authenticity of another's faith but I fail to see why we must then determine it sinful to judge it for the right reasons?

We can watch out for these Christians who are stuck in the early stage, without anyone to guide and teach them.
We are here on this site to come alongside others, just as we are in our homes, work places, churches.

God bless, Susana

I agree completely. Just for the record, I wasn't seeking to condemn anyone nor was I commenting on the proper Christian response to a faith that remains completely inoperative for 12 years. I merely wanted to understand how others would view a 12 year long fruitless faith.

Thanks for you input. It was very wise.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.



27“The owner's servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

Okay. And just so I'm clear, how does that address the questions of the opening post? :scratch:

Thanks,
God bless

[Reformationist]

It doesn't matter that we don't understand it all, so long as we keep following the light we can see.

Blessings, Susana

But what of the case of a person who follows no light for 12 years? Does that matter?

Thanks,
God bless

[Reformationist]

Remember that it is not for us to judge what is in ones heart.

You know, I hear Christians say this all the time. Where does the Bible ever say such a thing? Are you just referring to the command in Luke 6:37 (or Matthew 7:1) to refrain from the hypocrisy of condemning others for what we, ourselves, are guilty of? How can we help someone or be compassionate to another if we don't judge with righteous judgment their motivations and actions?

That is between them and the Lord.

Are we not commanded to love our brother and restore him when he is caught in a trespass? How can we do that if we do not judge his actions as sinful? Again, I completely agree that it is not our right to judge a person's worth to the Lord or His ability to make them His child. I just don't understand how we can help someone if we don't judge them, at least in a godly way.

With that said, you would expect to see a change (fruit of the spirit) in ones life after accepting Jesus. A change in attitude and actions. So in the worldly view it definately would be hard to accept.

I see. That makes sense.

God bless

[The Lord is my banner]

Reformationist, I'll try to get back here tomorrow to answer your questions when i'm a bit more alert.

Blessings, Susana

[Reformationist]

I would agree with this..... To a degree. It is possible to be stagnant in your growth while not being "backslidden." Such would describe me during at least a couple years of college.

Remember that a true profession of faith in Christ is a fruit of regeneration. A changed life is only natural after that. The rate of growth may be quite slow.

Slow growth is something that I think all of us have experienced. I agree that such growth is no basis for assuming someone's profession is spurious. However, there's a difference between slow and non-existant.

This would be the cultural Christian.

Is it actually proper to still call such a person a Christian?

To some degree, yes. This would depend on the situation. It could be deep rooted sin issues or simple ignorance hindering growth.

I understand but I'm not talking about a continuing struggle with sin. I'm talking about a complete lack of visible obedience.

Don't misunderstand, I agree with you in principle but each situation is unique. It is not for me to say wether that person was truly regenerated when they declared faith even though it may take years to see any real growth.

Agreed. I am not suggesting that we assume someone is not regenerate. However, I think it is viable to assume that a profession of faith followed by 12 years of God not even being a concern for your life is evidence that the profession was emotional, not spiritual. Children are quite easily led and guided, at least in some things. They are often caught up in participating in something like an altar call or a prayer for salvation that is, in fact, not the product of any spiritual renewal.

Does this make any sense?

Of course. You make some very good points, as always.

Would this situation give me cause to wonder? Yes.
However, I would be the last one to make any judgements apart from blatant rejection of the gospel in word or deed.

Again, am I making any sense?

But isn't living as if there is no God a "blatant rejection of the Gospel in word and deed?"

God bless

[Reformationist]

Reformationist, I'll try to get back here tomorrow to answer your questions when i'm a bit more alert.

Blessings, Susana

Thanks a lot Susana. I have truly appreciated your input thus far.

God bless

[daverain]

.


Q.)

Could a Christian (who is saved) feel ashamed?

Could this SHAME cause one to THINK they're NOT saved (yet they ARE)?

Might they have been saved (and THOUGHT they weren't)?


Could it be that...
-----------------

The enemy wants the un-saved to think they're NOT going to hell,

and...

the saved to think they ARE going to hell?



.

[julian the apostate]

daverain's post should be handed to everyone who is a new christian

macarthur's lordship salvation, is what happens when you go to bob jones university

and take it seriously

[Reformationist]

.


Q.)

Could a Christian (who is saved) feel ashamed?

Could this SHAME cause one to THINK they're NOT saved (yet they ARE)?

Might they have been saved (and THOUGHT they weren't)?


Could it be that...
-----------------

The enemy wants the un-saved to think they're NOT going to hell,

and...

the saved to think they ARE going to hell?



.

Ummm...dave, with all due respect to the profundity of your inquiries, I would ask that you answer my questions rather than shifting the topic to one of your own choosing.

God bless

[oworm]

:preach: Sorry to interject here Don but i feel the need to lay to rest this common misconception on what judging is and isn't .

When people come away with the usuall statement to the effect of "Well i cannot judge" or whatever connotation of words used,they are usually referring to Jesus words in Matthew 7 and following;

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

The type of judgement we are to refrain from engaging in is the type of censorious attitude which seeks out minor faults in others and blows them out of proportion. Jesus use of hyberbole in the quote above should be sufficient to relate his point.
The significance of a speck of dust in the eye is that you would need to look very closely to spot it! Made especially more difficult if something is blocking your own vision!
Notice also at the end of the statement,the implication is that those who dont have beams of wood sticking out of their eyes are qualified to remove specks from others.
Jesus is talking about hypocrysy which he hated with a passion that aroused his anger.

We are qualified to make judgements on the validity of anothers claims.Scriptural evidence for such an action is plentifull;

Matthew 7:16, "By their fruit you will know them"
How else are we to recognise the validity of a claim to faith except by making a judgement based on observation for fruit in a professors life?

Check out the following passages:
1 Cor 5:12
1 Cor 6:1-3
1 Cor 10:15
1 John 4:1



Ok,once again,sorry to drag this thread OT but i just felt that this misconception should be cleared up. lets get back OT

[oworm]

I just read something in someone's profile. I do not wish for the person to claim it as a part of their profile as my goal is not to single anyone out or offend them in any way. The only reason I cite this is because I see very similar statements made by Christians of every denomination and age.

The entry was, "I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at age 7, but for 12 years thereafter I was backslidden."

Christians do backslide or fall into periods of extended disobedience.However,to make a profession of faith and fall away immediately seems like seed that fell along the path? (Matt 13:4)

Now, the thing that confuses me is that "accepting Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior," in my understanding, must result in a changed life.

Yes.


The change does not have to be an overnight change from violent heathen to godly minister and professor of the faith but if it doesn't result in a changed life for X number of years then, so far as I can determine, the acceptance was either spurious or worthless.

Any conversion from darkness to the light of the gospel must,as evidence,produce even a glimmer that something has changed. Its usually in ones attitude to sin as conversion should produce a moral change.

I have always known that there are Christians who desire the Lord as Savior but refuse Him as Lord.

I cant see how the two can be divorced:scratch:

My question to you is, do you believe that a claim of accepting Jesus as your Savior is justifiable if it doesn't result in a changed life until years later?

Hmmm, i think that depends on what peoples appreciation of what "saviour " means. Our understanding (if it is correct)of what salvation is should produce a moral change immediately (repentance?)
If there is no moral change in thinking or appreciation of what we are saved from and to then any claim to saving faith may have to be considered as spurious.
That is not to say that God can't by speaking to or have his hand on a person for years,drawing them by a process of life experiences until the person is left to conclude that ever since they first heard the gospel and were "touched" that they are brought to an end of themselves and have no place to turn except in repentance to God for forgivness and salvation. Such is my own experience of having first heard the gospel at 16 and went through life with periods of being in and out of the church. Altjhough i knew the tenets of the faith it wasnt until later in life that God brought me to a crisis point where i realised my need of forgivness and a moral change of direction!

Again, I mean no disrespect to the member who makes this claim in their profile. I simply wish to know other's opinions on a profession of faith vs. a possession of faith.

Additionally, I think it would be rather pointless to make the claim that "accepting Jesus as my personal Savior" is fine as long as it is a reference to simply praying a prayer or going forward at an altar call or something to that effect. I am simply trying to find out if other Christians believe that a profession of faith that doesn't result in a verifiable change in one's life until years later should be considered a true acceptance of Christ as Savior.

Thanks for your time.

God bless

Like i said, I think it depends what ones appreciation of Christ as "Saviour" really means.:)

[The Lord is my banner]

But what of the case of a person who follows no light for 12 years? Does that matter?

Thanks,
God bless

Of course I agree with you that it matters! :thumbsup:

I've looked back at you OP and your replies to my post and find I don't really know what you're asking.
You ask a lot of questions, then you ask what my answers mean.
I don't know where to begin!

Perhaps it would help if I knew a bit more detail of this hypothetical Quasi-Christian. For instance, their present attitude to their spiritual condition would make a difference to how I would approach them. Are they smug? troubled? Confused? Do they not think about it at all?

I'm not sure what you feel your responsibility is with them? To challenge them? To draw them into discussions? To get them to church (or are they already going?) To point out where you think they are going wrong?

So much depends on individual people's circumstances, and our own relationship with them, and I don't think you can have a blanket prescription for all backsliders and false converts.
God doesn't seem to do it that way; He treats each one of us as a unique person living in a unique situation in time, place, relationships.

I keep trying to write replies to all your questions, but find they all begin with: "if."
Sorry, I am finding this a bit abstract, and can't focus my thoughts any more than that at the moment.

God bless, Susana

[Reformationist]

:preach: Sorry to interject here Don but i feel the need to lay to rest this common misconception on what judging is and isn't .

When people come away with the usuall statement to the effect of "Well i cannot judge" or whatever connotation of words used,they are usually referring to Jesus words in Matthew 7 and following;

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

The type of judgement we are to refrain from engaging in is the type of censorious attitude which seeks out minor faults in others and blows them out of proportion. Jesus use of hyberbole in the quote above should be sufficient to relate his point.
The significance of a speck of dust in the eye is that you would need to look very closely to spot it! Made especially more difficult if something is blocking your own vision!
Notice also at the end of the statement,the implication is that those who dont have beams of wood sticking out of their eyes are qualified to remove specks from others.
Jesus is talking about hypocrysy which he hated with a passion that aroused his anger.

We are qualified to make judgements on the validity of anothers claims.Scriptural evidence for such an action is plentifull;

Matthew 7:16, "By their fruit you will know them"
How else are we to recognise the validity of a claim to faith except by making a judgement based on observation for fruit in a professors life?

Check out the following passages:
1 Cor 5:12
1 Cor 6:1-3
1 Cor 10:15
1 John 4:1



Ok,once again,sorry to drag this thread OT but i just felt that this misconception should be cleared up. lets get back OT

Very good post oworm. Thank you for sharing. It was very informative and helpful, at least to me. I agree completely.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Christians do backslide or fall into periods of extended disobedience.However,to make a profession of faith and fall away immediately seems like seed that fell along the path? (Matt 13:4)



Yes.




Any conversion from darkness to the light of the gospel must,as evidence,produce even a glimmer that something has changed. Its usually in ones attitude to sin as conversion should produce a moral change.



I cant see how the two can be divorced:scratch:



Hmmm, i think that depends on what peoples appreciation of what "saviour " means. Our understanding (if it is correct)of what salvation is should produce a moral change immediately (repentance?)
If there is no moral change in thinking or appreciation of what we are saved from and to then any claim to saving faith may have to be considered as spurious.
That is not to say that God can't by speaking to or have his hand on a person for years,drawing them by a process of life experiences until the person is left to conclude that ever since they first heard the gospel and were "touched" that they are brought to an end of themselves and have no place to turn except in repentance to God for forgivness and salvation. Such is my own experience of having first heard the gospel at 16 and went through life with periods of being in and out of the church. Altjhough i knew the tenets of the faith it wasnt until later in life that God brought me to a crisis point where i realised my need of forgivness and a moral change of direction!



Like i said, I think it depends what ones appreciation of Christ as "Saviour" really means.:)

oworm, that is, without a doubt, one of the best posts I've ever read on this MB. Thank you. I am deeply humbled by your comprehensive grasp of this issue.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Of course I agree with you that it matters! :thumbsup:

Well, that's good. :)

I've looked back at you OP and your replies to my post and find I don't really know what you're asking.
You ask a lot of questions, then you ask what my answers mean.
I don't know where to begin!

Sorry about that. I have a tendency to do that. :blush: I am merely asking if it is appropriate to consider a person's profession of faith a possession of faith if it doesn't produce any change until years, in this case 12 years, later?

Perhaps it would help if I knew a bit more detail of this hypothetical Quasi-Christian. For instance, their present attitude to their spiritual condition would make a difference to how I would approach them. Are they smug? troubled? Confused? Do they not think about it at all?

Well, I do not know this particular poster, nor was I trying to make this a personal thing about him. I was speaking in general terms. Most of us know people who claim to be a disciple of God yet show no evidence to support such a claim. I was just wondering how others view the claims of faith of those who exhibit no characteristics of having said faith. Do you accept it as a true and saving faith or does it compel you to deal with them as a non-believer.

I'm not sure what you feel your responsibility is with them? To challenge them? To draw them into discussions? To get them to church (or are they already going?) To point out where you think they are going wrong?

Sure, all of those things. What do you feel your responsibility is to those who claim the title of follower of Christ without following Him?

So much depends on individual people's circumstances, and our own relationship with them, and I don't think you can have a blanket prescription for all backsliders and false converts.

Nor was I making a blanket statement about all backsliding Christians. I don't know a single Christian who has not gone through periods of stagnancy. I do not contend that we should assume a person is not a Christian simply because they occasionally act in defiance to the Law of God. We all do that. I'm speaking specifically of those who live for extended periods of time as one who feels no compulsion or regret for their disobedient lifestyle yet claims to be a child of God.

God doesn't seem to do it that way; He treats each one of us as a unique person living in a unique situation in time, place, relationships.

I agree. I have no doubt that God knows the true home of our heart. I am just addressing the fact that we, as finite creatures, have no such ability and, as such, must judge the authenticity of a claim, any claim, by the fruit it produces.

I keep trying to write replies to all your questions, but find they all begin with: "if."
Sorry, I am finding this a bit abstract, and can't focus my thoughts any more than that at the moment.

God bless, Susana

I'm sure it's my fault Susana. Sometimes my questions aren't very clear.

Thanks for answering though.

God bless

[daverain]

.


Ummm...dave, with all due respect to the profundity of your inquiries, I would ask that you answer my questions rather than shifting the topic to one of your own choosing.

God bless



I feel (and I think others are in agreement with me, as can be seen),

that to answer MY question, is to ALSO answer YOURS.



-Peace in Christ.


.

[Tavita]

.


Q.)

Could a Christian (who is saved) feel ashamed?

Could this SHAME cause one to THINK they're NOT saved (yet they ARE)?

Might they have been saved (and THOUGHT they weren't)?


Could it be that...
-----------------

The enemy wants the un-saved to think they're NOT going to hell,

and...

the saved to think they ARE going to hell?



.



All christians go through periods or seasons of doubt, but approx 12 years? And from the point of so-called salvation? How can one believe that way for so long if they have the Spirit of God residing within? By their fruit they show themselves to have no faith, with shame or without. Even with shame there will be fruit shown, if they have faith.
Salvation is a gift from God, is His gift of no effect in the life of a believer?

(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

(Eph 2:9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(1Jo 5:4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.



I'm very sure it's God who wants the un-saved to think they're going to hell.

[Knight]

Slow growth is something that I think all of us have experienced. I agree that such growth is no basis for assuming someone's profession is spurious. However, there's a difference between slow and non-existant.

Agreed.


Is it actually proper to still call such a person a Christian?

Only on the broadest sense of the term.


I understand but I'm not talking about a continuing struggle with sin. I'm talking about a complete lack of visible obedience.

I also indicated a bit of ignorance. The keyword here is "visible." We are agreed that true saving faith should be visible. No question about that. We cannot know what is going on in another's heart. The Holy Spirit could well be working.

However, it would give us cause to question.


Agreed. I am not suggesting that we assume someone is not regenerate. However, I think it is viable to assume that a profession of faith followed by 12 years of God not even being a concern for your life is evidence that the profession was emotional, not spiritual. Children are quite easily led and guided, at least in some things. They are often caught up in participating in something like an altar call or a prayer for salvation that is, in fact, not the product of any spiritual renewal.

Understood. I was mostly speaking of the short-term.


Of course. You make some very good points, as always.

My thanks.
Ditto.


But isn't living as if there is no God a "blatant rejection of the Gospel in word and deed?"

God bless

More than likely, yes.
However, someone that God has determined to save will eventually demonstrate this through a changed life.

[Reformationist]

I feel (and I think others are in agreement with me, as can be seen), that to answer MY question, is to ALSO answer YOURS.

-Peace in Christ.

I have no problem with subsequent questions, so long as they are an effort to further discuss the topic that was raised in the OP. If your questions are an effort to do so, I am failing to see it. So, I apologize for my narrow mindedness and ask you, once again, to simply stick with the topic with which I started. You are more than welcome to start your own thread if you desire answers to your questions.

God bless

[Reformationist]

All christians go through periods or seasons of doubt, but approx 12 years? And from the point of so-called salvation? How can one believe that way for so long if they have the Spirit of God residing within? By their fruit they show themselves to have no faith, with shame or without. Even with shame there will be fruit shown, if they have faith.
Salvation is a gift from God, is His gift of no effect in the life of a believer?

(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

(Eph 2:9) not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

(1Jo 5:4) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.



I'm very sure it's God who wants the un-saved to think they're going to hell.

Once again, great post Tavita.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Agreed.



Only on the broadest sense of the term.



I also indicated a bit of ignorance. The keyword here is "visible." We are agreed that true saving faith should be visible. No question about that. We cannot know what is going on in another's heart. The Holy Spirit could well be working.

However, it would give us cause to question.



Understood. I was mostly speaking of the short-term.



My thanks.
Ditto.



More than likely, yes.
However, someone that God has determined to save will eventually demonstrate this through a changed life.

Great post bro. As always I am greatly encouraged by your compassion for others and the godly way in which you always seek to view others in the most helpful way.

Thanks,
God bless

[Knight]

Great post bro. As always I am greatly encouraged by your compassion for others and the godly way in which you always seek to view others in the most helpful way.

Thanks,
God bless

You're welcome.....


Now only if I could practice this as well as I can preach it.... ;)

[julian the apostate]

Now only if I could practice this as well as I can preach it.... ;)

perhaps you are not "saved"

see william cowper -- google cowper william straight jacket john newton

could be instructive for the road you are sending yourselves and others down

christ's peace be with you

[daverain]

.



It is my view that one CAN be saved, yet in doubt of this (yes even for years).

I feel one COULD feel so unworthy, and ashamed (because of sin), that the concept of BEING SAVED FOREVER would escape their grasp.

(indeed MANY -but not all- Christian's DON'T believe one can be 'saved forever'.)


-Peace in Christ.


P.S. My name is NOT Dave, I use the 'handle' of: daverain.



.

[Reformationist]

Now only if I could practice this as well as I can preach it.... ;)

perhaps you are not "saved"

see william cowper -- google cowper william straight jacket john newton

could be instructive for the road you are sending yourselves and others down

christ's peace be with you

Ummm...what does this post mean? :scratch:

[Reformationist]

.



It is my view that one CAN be saved, yet in doubt of this (yes even for years).

I feel one COULD feel so unworthy, and ashamed (because of sin), that the concept of BEING SAVED FOREVER would escape their grasp.

(indeed MANY -but not all- Christian's DON'T believe one can be 'saved forever'.)


-Peace in Christ.


P.S. My name is NOT Dave, I use the 'handle' of: daverain.



.

I fully understand what you are saying daverain, but I'm not talking about assurance of salvation. I'm talking about possession of salvation. Think about this in a personal way. Let's say that you claimed to have been saved at age 7. Then, 12 years later, you are convicted of your disobedient lifestyle and repent and recommit yourself to the Lord. Then, when reflecting upon the last 12 years you honestly acknowledge that there was no desire to serve God nor any feeling of shame or regret when you didn't. Would you think your own profession of faith made 12 years before was evidence of true conversion?

Thanks,
God bless

[julian the apostate]

reformationist

william cowper,, the greatest puritan poet

google, with all the words

[daverain]

.



I fully understand what you are saying daverain, but I'm not talking about assurance of salvation. I'm talking about possession of salvation. Think about this in a personal way. Let's say that you claimed to have been saved at age 7. Then, 12 years later, you are convicted of your disobedient lifestyle and repent and recommit yourself to the Lord. Then, when reflecting upon the last 12 years you honestly acknowledge that there was no desire to serve God nor any feeling of shame or regret when you didn't. Would you think your own profession of faith made 12 years before was evidence of true conversion?

Thanks,
God bless


Ah.

I DO see your point (said individual may well NOT have been saved.)


I was merely pointing out the possible 'other side of the same coin'.




However...


You've mentioned a VERY important point.


-Peace in Christ,



-daverain.



.

[heartnsoul]

This is a very good and interesting topic of discussion. Very thought provoking to say the least. Here are some of my thoughts to the OP. I view a Christian's spiritual growth as a continual process. It's not something that once we ask Jesus into our lives that we automatically become *spiritually mature*. Think of a child that first discovers Christmas. The parents know that a child cannot totally comprehend the meaning of Christmas at 5 years old. So the child is only capable of grasping the idea of a big chubby Santa Claus, long white beard, wearing red clothes and black shoes, giving toys to good boys & girls, and riding a sled with reindeers. Now as the child gets older, of course the meaning changes. It's now about giving back to others and trying to figure out what makes other people happy and how much money one has to spend to buy a gift. Then as that child gets older yet, it becomes more of giving than receiving, and realizing the true meaning of Christmas which is Christ's birth and His gift to us (salvation). So, you see, it's a PROCESS. Does that mean the child wasn't a Christian? I think not. I think God knows our hearts when we were just a little baby and he knows whether we are truly His and whether we will eventually grow to spiritual maturity or not.

True, I do agree that by the fruits of our actions, we can see whether Christ is truly working in our lives. However, it's still a process. We are all at different spiritual walks of life. Some are further along than others. It's very hard to judge another's walk because God can even use the worst situations to bring glory upon Himself. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way by experiencing very painful lessons that make us fall to our knees. And only then, do some of us (on our knees) finally realize the power of God. And then we recommit ourselves again. As we become more and more aware of God and learn our lessons *well*, I believe our faith strengthens even stronger than before and, the relationship between us and God also gets better and deeper through the years.

In response to your question, I think a child receives Jesus as his/her "savior" as a child, but as he/she matures later in life, he/she realizes what the meaning of "Lord" is and through many of life's lessons learned, he/she (hopefully) turns their life 100% completely over to God, willingly/lovingly submits themselves to God with a heart of love/compassion, and also a true understanding of who God really is and how much He loves us.

Every relationship has its trials, backsliding, arguments, etc. The important thing is whether the relationship becomes reconciled and if lessons are learned *well*. When lessons are learned *well*, one becomes more spiritually mature and then maybe fall less (backslide less). At some point, enlightenment (spiritual maturity) does reach a point where the person finally knows beyond a shadow of a doubt who God really is. When that happens, the passion and spirit-filled Christian is obviously recognized by all and everyone knows that the love and commitment is real. The light from within shine ever so bright and the sparkles in the eyes are glistening with God's love.

May everyone grow closer to God in his/her spiritual walk. May we all do less falling backwards and more advancing forward towards God's kingdom. As Christians mature, may all our Spirits unite as one into the brightest star to light the universe and rock the world!! Let's shine our light unto others! God bless all!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[daverain]

.



This is a very good and interesting topic of discussion. Very thought provoking to say the least. Here are some of my thoughts to the OP. I view a Christian's spiritual growth as a continual process. It's not something that once we ask Jesus into our lives that we automatically become *spiritually mature*. Think of a child that first discovers Christmas. The parents know that a child cannot totally comprehend the meaning of Christmas at 5 years old. So the child is only capable of grasping the idea of a big chubby Santa Claus, long white beard, wearing red clothes and black shoes, giving toys to good boys & girls, and riding a sled with reindeers. Now as the child gets older, of course the meaning changes. It's now about giving back to others and trying to figure out what makes other people happy and how much money one has to spend to buy a gift. Then as that child gets older yet, it becomes more of giving than receiving, and realizing the true meaning of Christmas which is Christ's birth and His gift to us (salvation). So, you see, it's a PROCESS. Does that mean the child wasn't a Christian? I think not. I think God knows our hearts when we were just a little baby and he knows whether we are truly His and whether we will eventually grow to spiritual maturity or not.

True, I do agree that by the fruits of our actions, we can see whether Christ is truly working in our lives. However, it's still a process. We are all at different spiritual walks of life. Some are further along than others. It's very hard to judge another's walk because God can even use the worst situations to bring glory upon Himself. Sometimes we have to learn the hard way by experiencing very painful lessons that make us fall to our knees. And only then, do some of us (on our knees) finally realize the power of God. And then we recommit ourselves again. As we become more and more aware of God and learn our lessons *well*, I believe our faith strengthens even stronger than before and, the relationship between us and God also gets better and deeper through the years.

In response to your question, I think a child receives Jesus as his/her "savior" as a child, but as he/she matures later in life, he/she realizes what the meaning of "Lord" is and through many of life's lessons learned, he/she (hopefully) turns their life 100% completely over to God, willingly/lovingly submits themselves to God with a heart of love/compassion, and also a true understanding of who God really is and how much He loves us.

Every relationship has its trials, backsliding, arguments, etc. The important thing is whether the relationship becomes reconciled and if lessons are learned *well*. When lessons are learned *well*, one becomes more spiritually mature and then maybe fall less (backslide less). At some point, enlightenment (spiritual maturity) does reach a point where the person finally knows beyond a shadow of a doubt who God really is. When that happens, the passion and spirit-filled Christian is obviously recognized by all and everyone knows that the love and commitment is real. The light from within shine ever so bright and the sparkles in the eyes are glistening with God's love.

May everyone grow closer to God in his/her spiritual walk. May we all do less falling backwards and more advancing forward towards God's kingdom. As Christians mature, may all our Spirits unite as one into the brightest star to light the universe and rock the world!! Let's shine our light unto others! God bless all!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:



I agree with and have experienced (and seen in others) almost

everything described here as being exactly what happens.


However (and this is a bit of a puzzle)...



How does one reconcile:

'Commiting100%'


with

the fact that Christians 'backslide' (=Still saved , YET living WRONGLY, and reaping pain-and-misery.)???


Yet also, we are...



Growing all the time

Until (one day =The Last Day):

We WILL be TOTALLY SINLESS IN HIM.

(You know what I mean.)


.

[daverain]

.




Oops.



I see the topic has drifted.


So...


Once upon a time when I was 'younger -and LESS WISE in my walk',

A person said to me:


"I'm a Christian, just not a born-again-Christian."



It haunts me to this day that I didn't say anything (so as to not offend).


God forgive me.


I only pray that he DOES find and RECIEVE Jesus.

(please pray this as well.)


That he might...

live happily ever after.


I feel a person with a 'said faith', rather than a 'real faith' WILL appear

TOTALLY BLIND to the things of The Spirit.


I feel by 'identifying-certain-patterns' (without judging),

WE (=God through us) might be able to lead a soul to Christ...


who already -falsely- thinks he/she is there.



.

[heartnsoul]

.However (and this is a bit of a puzzle)...

How does one reconcile:

'Commiting100%'

with

the fact that Christians 'backslide' (=Still saved , YET living WRONGLY, and reaping pain-and-misery.)???

Yet also, we are...

Growing all the time

Until (one day =The Last Day):

We WILL be TOTALLY SINLESS IN HIM.

(You know what I mean.).
Since our spiritual growth is a process, at times if we are living WRONGLY (as you put it), then the spiritual growth becomes stagnant...but that pain & misery reaped (hopefully only temporary) will yield growth after he/she repents. Being 100% committed is a personal choice. It's a choice that is made daily. When we wake up every morning, we can choose to commit ourselves to God's way or our own way. To take it further, it could even be viewed as a moment by moment choice for us. As humans, we will never be 100% perfect and maybe never 100% committed...but with our true repentance and God's forgiveness, as we continually move forward inch by inch and grow stronger in our walk with God, I believe we get closer to the 100%.

So, in response to your question, if someone chooses to live WRONGLY (backslides) and then reaps pain and misery, then that person willingly chose to not follow Jesus for that period of time and the growth has thus become stagnant temporarily. God still loves that person and remains always "knocking at his/her door", waiting patiently for the sinner to repent and recommit himself/herself. What is a struggle for one person, may not be for another. What takes one person 3 years to learn, may only take another 1 year to learn. So, taking into account that everyone is uniquely created by God, only God knows our hearts and our individual struggles/sins.

I think as we all get to personally experience and get to know the true nature of God, we realize what a WONDERFUL FRIEND he is and His faithful love and forgiveness opens our hearts to love Him back with greater and deeper devotion/conviction as time goes on. Hope that makes sense. :angel:

[Reformationist]

reformationist

william cowper,, the greatest puritan poet

google, with all the words

I wasn't asking who William Cowper was. I was asking what your post meant. It seemed like your post was in response to Knight's wish that he was more obedient. Maybe I misunderstood but saying "perhaps you're not saved" can be easily misconstrued. That's all I was wondering about.

I am not sure how looking up William Cowper on Google will enlighten me as to what you meant in your post.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Ah.

I DO see your point (said individual may well NOT have been saved.)


I was merely pointing out the possible 'other side of the same coin'.

However...

You've mentioned a VERY important point.

-Peace in Christ,

-daverain.

I see. Very good point daverain. :)

God bless

[Reformationist]

This is a very good and interesting topic of discussion. Very thought provoking to say the least.

That's good. Thanks for commenting.

Here are some of my thoughts to the OP. I view a Christian's spiritual growth as a continual process. It's not something that once we ask Jesus into our lives that we automatically become *spiritually mature*.

I completely agree. :)

Think of a child that first discovers Christmas. The parents know that a child cannot totally comprehend the meaning of Christmas at 5 years old. So the child is only capable of grasping the idea of a big chubby Santa Claus, long white beard, wearing red clothes and black shoes, giving toys to good boys & girls, and riding a sled with reindeers. Now as the child gets older, of course the meaning changes. It's now about giving back to others and trying to figure out what makes other people happy and how much money one has to spend to buy a gift. Then as that child gets older yet, it becomes more of giving than receiving, and realizing the true meaning of Christmas which is Christ's birth and His gift to us (salvation). So, you see, it's a PROCESS. Does that mean the child wasn't a Christian? I think not. I think God knows our hearts when we were just a little baby and he knows whether we are truly His and whether we will eventually grow to spiritual maturity or not.

This is a very understandable story and I think it shows a great understanding of growth. Unfortunately, that is not what this thread is about. By that member's own profession, he was backslidden for 12 years. Now, we all know that all Christians sin. Therefore, "backslidden" must be more than a progressive growth interspersed with periods of unfaithfulness. Now, when we take into account that by this member's own admission, this period of being "backslidden" lasted 12 years and, by the way he worded it, it seemed to start right after his profession of faith. That's different than growing in our knowledge of the Lord and His grace. Wouldn't you say?

True, I do agree that by the fruits of our actions, we can see whether Christ is truly working in our lives. However, it's still a process. We are all at different spiritual walks of life. Some are further along than others. It's very hard to judge another's walk because God can even use the worst situations to bring glory upon Himself.

Not only can God use the worst situations to bring Himself glory, He does.

Sometimes we have to learn the hard way by experiencing very painful lessons that make us fall to our knees. And only then, do some of us (on our knees) finally realize the power of God. And then we recommit ourselves again. As we become more and more aware of God and learn our lessons *well*, I believe our faith strengthens even stronger than before and, the relationship between us and God also gets better and deeper through the years.

Just to clarify, I'm not addressing God's ability to use our unfaithfulness to bring Himself glory or, even, to equip us to be great champions of the faith. I'm talking about how we, as Christians, should view the profession of faith that doesn't produce any verifiable signs of conversion for years on end.

In response to your question, I think a child receives Jesus as his/her "savior" as a child, but as he/she matures later in life, he/she realizes what the meaning of "Lord" is and through many of life's lessons learned, he/she (hopefully) turns their life 100% completely over to God, willingly/lovingly submits themselves to God with a heart of love/compassion, and also a true understanding of who God really is and how much He loves us.

But if it isn't until years later how have you determined that they received Jesus? This is actually the very point of my post. You are stating that children receive Him as their Savior but, so far as I can tell, make no mention of how that reception should change their life immediately. I'm not talking about leaps and bounds of change. I'm talking about an identifiable change wrought by their faith in God.

Every relationship has its trials, backsliding, arguments, etc. The important thing is whether the relationship becomes reconciled and if lessons are learned *well*. When lessons are learned *well*, one becomes more spiritually mature and then maybe fall less (backslide less). At some point, enlightenment (spiritual maturity) does reach a point where the person finally knows beyond a shadow of a doubt who God really is. When that happens, the passion and spirit-filled Christian is obviously recognized by all and everyone knows that the love and commitment is real. The light from within shine ever so bright and the sparkles in the eyes are glistening with God's love.

May everyone grow closer to God in his/her spiritual walk. May we all do less falling backwards and more advancing forward towards God's kingdom. As Christians mature, may all our Spirits unite as one into the brightest star to light the universe and rock the world!! Let's shine our light unto others! God bless all!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

I agree. Good post.

God bless

[The Lord is my banner]

I wasn't asking who William Cowper was. I was asking what your post meant. It seemed like your post was in response to Knight's wish that he was more obedient. Maybe I misunderstood but saying "perhaps you're not saved" can be easily misconstrued. That's all I was wondering about.

I am not sure how looking up William Cowper on Google will enlighten me as to what you meant in your post.

God bless

I'm confused too :scratch: I looked up all those words on Google and got nowhere.

[Knight]

I wasn't asking who William Cowper was. I was asking what your post meant. It seemed like your post was in response to Knight's wish that he was more obedient. Maybe I misunderstood but saying "perhaps you're not saved" can be easily misconstrued. That's all I was wondering about.

I am not sure how looking up William Cowper on Google will enlighten me as to what you meant in your post.

God bless

I took it as more or less of a joke.

If not, it is now.......

[MG]

I'm talking about how we, as Christians, should view the profession of faith that doesn't produce any verifiable signs of conversion for years on end.


In my humble opinion and experience, repentence does not come with an instant make over. You are still "sleeping with the enemy" (the flesh). Some people struggle to overcome their flesh while others do not. For the ones that do not, they could spend their entire walk with the Lord, battling issues that are of this world. Therefore, I lean toward a disagreement. I can see where someone could spend 12 years living like the devil still profess faith. However, the brother or sister that offered this person the gospel, and then led him in prayer, failed him when it came to edifying. We are to love one another. If a brother or sister is hurting, struggling, or falling away then one of us has to step up to the plate and reach out!

Great topic/post by the way

[Reformationist]

In my humble opinion and experience, repentence does not come with an instant make over. You are still "sleeping with the enemy" (the flesh). Some people struggle to overcome their flesh while others do not. For the ones that do not, they could spend their entire walk with the Lord, battling issues that are of this world. Therefore, I lean toward a disagreement. I can see where someone could spend 12 years living like the devil still profess faith. However, the brother or sister that offered this person the gospel, and then led him in prayer, failed him when it came to edifying. We are to love one another. If a brother or sister is hurting, struggling, or falling away then one of us has to step up to the plate and reach out!

Great topic/post by the way

Great post yourself. :) Thanks for your insight.

God bless

[julian the apostate]

for anyone interested

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biographies/92cowper.html

Conviction of sin took place, especially of that just committed; the meanness of it, as well as its atrocity, were exhibited to me in colours so inconceivably strong that I despised myself, with a contempt not to be imagined or expressed ... This sense of it secured me from the repetition of a crime which I could not now reflect on without abhorrence ... A sense of God's wrath, and a deep despair of escaping it, instantly succeeded (see note 6).
Now everything he read condemned him. Sleep would not come, and, when it did, it brought him terrifying dreams. When he awoke he "reeled and staggered like a drunken man."
So in December 1763, he was committed to St. Albans Insane Asylum where the 58 year old Dr. Nathaniel Cotton tended the patients. He was somewhat of a poet, but most of all, by God's wonderful design, an evangelical believer and lover of God and the gospel.

[ub4me]

Can one not totally accept Christ as savior, and not being rooted and grounded in the word, have a life transformation, and being weak get pulled back into the clutches of sin? where they may stay for a while out of guilt and shame, or even out of a feeling of worthlessness after sinning, not realizing the depth the breadth and the length of God's mercy,grace and love. you can accept Him as Lord today and reject Him tomorrow, Judas did, even knowing Him personally, and knowing whom He was, still betrayed Him, when following the lust of the flesh. This dosen't minamalize the expierince of his initial acceptance, only brings him back to realize why he accepted Christ in the first place, because we are weak and He is strong!!!