EMERGENT: Reunified Church thread 2

[gracefaith]

As I posted in a previous thread, my church leadership has been talking about the reunification of all denominations into "one church" and have been seeking to acheive this goal through changes in our worship style; namely, the inclusion of traditional elements from other denominations like candles and benedictions.

Well, here's the update. I missed the church on Sunday and after being alerted to the fact that they handed out pamplets about "the Eucharist" (?!) and that the worship minister preached, I downloaded the sermon. The entire service (he spoke for 45 minutes) consisted of him talking about how we had become complacent and expected the preaching pastor to preach spectacularly every Sunday. Oh, and that we treat the Bible like a textbook. The answer? We should mix-up our worship style, not have preaching every Sunday, be open minded to more "interactive" worship. Then there was a call to make confession (?!) before Communion.

The worship leader mentioned this book:The Church on the Other Side (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310252199/qid=1107099779/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-6588210-8823939) by Brian D. McLaren. I searched in Amazon.com and was tipped off to "movement" among many church called EMERGENT. (They're not sure if it is a movement - one blog wondered "Is it a dialogue, a conversation, a movement, a artform?") I found www.emergentvillage.com (http://www.emergentvillage.com/) and many other articles and was stunned to find there are OTHER churches based on this system.

Has anyone else heard about this? Am I being close minded to be so afraid of it? I attend a very large church and while I am willing to "flee for my life" (as a poster in previous thread suggested), I worry that the other members may be unaware that there is anything amiss and don't want to leave them to be taken down a path that is dangerous.

[New_Wineskin]

The entire service (he spoke for 45 minutes) consisted of him talking about how we had become complacent and expected the preaching pastor to preach spectacularly every Sunday. Oh, and that we treat the Bible like a textbook. The answer? We should mix-up our worship style, not have preaching every Sunday, be open minded to more "interactive" worship.

Ok . I don't agree with paying "pastors" but a lot of groups do . Is this person being paid ? If so , would *he* be open minded to not being paid the weeks that he doesn't preach or to be paid less if the preaching isn't "spectacular" ? My guess is that he didn't even come close to addressing those types of questions .

[Knight]

The Bible is not simply a textbook. It is the Word of God.

That's all I have to say on the subject.....

[gracefaith]

Ok . I don't agree with paying "pastors" but a lot of groups do . Is this person being paid ? If so , would *he* be open minded to not being paid the weeks that he doesn't preach or to be paid less if the preaching isn't "spectacular" ? My guess is that he didn't even come close to addressing those types of questions .

I think you misunderstood me. It was the music minister that was complaining that we expect a grand performance from the preaching minister every Sunday.

Firstly, I hold this to be untrue. I think most people just expect him to preach and teach honestly and understand that not all sermons will move all of us the same way all the time. Secondly, I think they are using this argument just so they can advance their agenda of marginalizing traditional worship (ie a weekly sermon) in favor of some sort of charasmatic Quaker meeting (it will be interactive!) sprinkled with Catholic elements.

For the record, it seems that most hardcore EMERGENT people are against "professional" church leaders and paying them as such. The founder of the movement, er, conversation, Brian McLaren is not seminary trained (he has a masters in English) and pastors a sizable church in Maryland. http://www.crcc.org (http://www.crcc.org/)

[New_Wineskin]

I think you misunderstood me. It was the music minister that was complaining that we expect a grand performance from the preaching minister every Sunday.

Firstly, I hold this to be untrue. I think most people just expect him to preach and teach honestly and understand that not all sermons will move all of us the same way all the time. Secondly, I think they are using this argument just so they can advance their agenda of marginalizing traditional worship (ie a weekly sermon) in favor of some sort of charasmatic Quaker meeting (it will be interactive!) sprinkled with Catholic elements.

For the record, it seems that most hardcore EMERGENT people are against "professional" church leaders and paying them as such. The founder of the movement, er, conversation, Brian McLaren is not seminary trained (he has a masters in English) and pastors a sizable church in Maryland. http://www.crcc.org

Ok . I forgot how some music leaders think that they can start giving a sermon simply because they are up front ( many of them ) and have easy access to a mike .

[kbanv]

I found this on emergentvillage.com:

"We must imagine and pursue the development of new ways of being followers of Jesus ? new ways of doing theology and living biblically".

Our Lord Jesus gave the way of being followers in the Bible! To imagine and pursue anything else would be change the Bible or even follow a false jesus!
They didn't say what we were to imagine and pursue!

By reading the Bible I don't have to imagine or pursue any new developments I just have to follow Jesus as he laid out the path that is written in the Word

As for the others in the church they will either see the light or they will not (most will not). Tell them the truth but don't stay there because you don't want to leave them in the situation, I don't know if you would be able to convince any of them of the danger their in.

[Gary B]

The worship leader mentioned this book:The Church on the Other Side (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310252199/qid=1107099779/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-6588210-8823939) by Brian D. McLaren. I searched in Amazon.com and was tipped off to "movement" among many church called EMERGENT. (They're not sure if it is a movement - one blog wondered "Is it a dialogue, a conversation, a movement, a artform?") I found www.emergentvillage.com (http://www.emergentvillage.com/) and many other articles and was stunned to find there are OTHER churches based on this system.

Has anyone else heard about this? Am I being close minded to be so afraid of it? I attend a very large church and while I am willing to "flee for my life" (as a poster in previous thread suggested), I worry that the other members may be unaware that there is anything amiss and don't want to leave them to be taken down a path that is dangerous.


EMERGENT IS …

Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders seeking to love our world in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.


Our dream is to join in the activity of God in the world wherever we are able, so that God’s dreams for our world come true. In the process, the world can be healed and changed, and so can we.

You are not being closed minded. I would be suspicious of this movement. Seems like they are trying to bring "heaven" or the physical "Kingdom of God" on this earth here and now. I wonder what they think "God's dreams" are for the world. I haven't gone deeper into the site. The first page was all I needed. However I'll look around some more.

We are not told to "love our world" or "the world" in the Bible. I'm sorry but the world isn't going to be healed. Maybe changed but not the way some think it will be. It will be eventually burned up....

Isn't God the same yesterday and today? And there is really nothing new under the sun! Doe's God really need our help (by our own humanistic efforts or nifty brand new programs) to change the world?

And I really think they are following another Jesus. IMHO If I was in this Church, I would keep my eyes open. I may not leave but I would be sure praying for the worship leader and pastor.

[kbanv]

EMERGENT IS ?

Emergent is a growing generative friendship among missional Christian leaders seeking to love our world in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.


Our dream is to join in the activity of God in the world wherever we are able, so that God?s dreams for our world come true. In the process, the world can be healed and changed, and so can we.

You are not being closed minded. I would be suspicious of this movement. Seems like they are trying to bring "heaven" or the physical "Kingdom of God" on this earth here and now. I wonder what they think "God's dreams" are for the world. I haven't gone deeper into the site. The first page was all I needed. However I'll look around some more.

We are not told to "love our world" or "the world" in the Bible. I'm sorry but the world isn't going to be healed. Maybe changed but not the way some think it will be. It will be eventually burned up....

Isn't God the same yesterday and today? And there is really nothing new under the sun! Doe's God really need our help (by our own humanistic efforts or nifty brand new programs) to change the world?

And I really think they are following another Jesus. IMHO If I was in this Church, I would keep my eyes open. I may not leave but I would be sure praying for the worship leader and pastor.

I missed the part about Gods dreams! God dose not have dreams about what he wants, He has plans that will soon be full filled! You are right we are not called to love this world and we do not have the power to heal the world.

1 John NKJV
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

[gracefaith]

I also found the two pages within emergentvillage.com worth reading (and worrying about.)

http://www.emergentvillage.com/Site/Belong/Community/index.htm

http://www.emergentvillage.com/Site/Belong/Order/index.htm

[FaithAlone]

Ok . I don't agree with paying "pastors" but a lot of groups do .

Have you ever been fullfilled the requirements of a full-time pastor/preacher? I think everyone is entitled to their opinion but it's very hard work. Much harder than the work I do at my full-time job. Paul worked and preached so that he wouldn't be a stumbling block to anyone but he quoted a verse about not muzzling an ox while it's threshing. I'll have to reread it but I always thought he was implying that a preacher is worthy of his wages. Isn't a good preacher a very important job? If you get someone who works full-time in the secular world and then has to put in at least 40 hours more to do what a pastor does he will be burned out or dead in a few years. Sorry, I just have a problem with people thinking that pastors don't work as hard as anyone else. I'm not mad at you, just voicing my opinion.

[New_Wineskin]

Sorry, I just have a problem with people thinking that pastors don't work as hard as anyone else. I'm not mad at you, just voicing my opinion. I didn't say that "pastors" didn't work hard . I understand and respect your opinion - I just don't agree with it . I will take the questions that you posed as rhetorical given the context . That may be better for a different thread .