Pastor has different doctrine. Please advise.

[tapero]

Hi, I believe salvation comes by faith through grace alone. I just found out that there is a doctrinal difference between the church I go to and the pastor's doctrine. He believes salvation is by faith and obedience.

I haven't directly asked him about the difference yet, I got this second hand, but the poor girl that asked me is so confused now, as she is a new believer.

Anyway, the pastor is resigned and looking to start a new church. He's a wonderful shephard, and servant, and even though there is this difference I will still be going to the bible study he has at his home. I've been going and never heard this before.

I'm not concerned with leaving the church or not as I don't go enough. It was dry before without a pastor for a year, and the church has flourished under this pastor, so I will miss that.

Is this a type of doctrine that he believes? I've never run across this before and am torn.

I'd appreciate advice and insight. Thanks, Tapero

[New_Wineskin]

I find it interesting that "pastors" are allowed to go to new groups all of the time but , when others do it , they are referred to with the derogatory term "church hopper" or "lone ranger" . Another example of a double standard .

[StevenL]

There's no such thing as 'faith' WITHOUT obedience. Your friend is right.

[ptgd1st]

There's no such thing as 'faith' WITHOUT obedience. Your friend is right.

I agree although the pastor may be a little misleading in referring to them as two seperate things. If you have faith then through its very nature you will obey. They go hand in hand. You can't have faith and not be obedient.

[Father Rick]

This is actually a common issue....

James says without works to back up your faith, then your faith is dead.

Martin Luther said that if anyone could reconcile the book of James w/ Justification by Faith that he would give that person his own doctorate. For this reason, Luther actually wanted James taken out of the Bible.


I suggest you do some study in that book, and maybe that will help you understand both where the pastor was coming from and how to help your friend.

[daverain]

---------
Paul says:
---------

Galations 3:10 "Anyone under THE LAW is under A CURSE."

(I agree)
(beware of 'blind-scribes'. They'll try to put YOU under a CURSE.)
(Please DON'T let them.)

Genuine faith produces works, but WE ARE NOT SAVED BY THEM.


"For we are saved by GRACE -and this is NOT of yourselves, it is a gift of GOD- and NOT WORKS so that NO MAN MAY BOAST."

(Do you see how EASILY they just: 'throw this out the window'?)


P.S. Martin Luther is NOT who -I- look to for answers.

I look to God.


(SOME DON'T look to God.)

SOME must to-this-day-ask:
---------------------------

"Who among us is the greatest?" ,

"Who among us is the greatest?" ,

"Who among us is the greatest?"


(laughs)


(- 'daverain' says: SOME would -if this were possible- have you still FORBIDDEN to eat PORK, and MANY things OF THIS NATURE (=un-God-ly.)




.

[kbanv]

Go talk to the pastor in person to discuse doctrine and his belief. rather than secon hand information. I'm sure he will be able to explain all to you. It is second hand information that destroys relationships, people, pastors.

[Topaz]

Martin Luther said that if anyone could reconcile the book of James w/ Justification by Faith that he would give that person his own doctorate. For this reason, Luther actually wanted James taken out of the Bible.

But he did not take it out of the Bible. He could have easily enough. Where do you get this information? It seems to be going around the forum here without ANY proof to back it up. God bless, and thanks. :)

[daverain]

.
------------------------------------
(RE: talking 'privately' with the 'pastor')
------------------------------------


Aaaaaaaaah,




Certain (false) pastors...

DON'T like their FALSE-DOCTRINES EXPOSED.

(It shrinks the wallet.)

Yet...

THEY ARE ACCOUNTABLE.


.

[Father Rick]

But he did not take it out of the Bible. He could have easily enough. Where do you get this information? It seems to be going around the forum here without ANY proof to back it up. God bless, and thanks. :)This is actually very common knowledge in Church history. There were actually a couple of different books Luther wanted to get rid of. I can pull the exact references to his writings for you if you would like, but I'm about to leave for a few hours so it may be tomorrow before I get back here to do so.






Without opening a whole 'nuther can of worms, until the time of Luther, the Deuterocanonicals (Apocrypha) were all part of scripture as well. Luther wanted them taken out as well, although it took quite some time for that to happen. In fact the original KJV included them, and it was not until a couple of revisions of the KJV that they were finally removed from Protestant Bibles-- but still remain in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican/Episcopal Bibles. Please-- I am NOT trying to start a debate on this subject, just giving some background that will hopefully put Luther's actions in context.



...And now... back to the original thread, so as to not hijack it anymore than has already happened...

[woman.at.the.well]

ditto on what ptg said. they go hand in hand!

[revrobor]

It is not your faith nor obedience that grants you salvation. Your salvation was purchased by Jesus Christ on the cross. He completed the work of saving mankind on the cross. You can do nothing to save yourself. However, when you choose to place your faith in Jesus and His completed work you are a recipient of that salvation granted you through the Grace of our Heavenly Father. But it is not the faith, obedience or grace that saves you. It is the shed Blood of our Lord.

[Knight]

It is not your faith nor obedience that grants you salvation. Your salvation was purchased by Jesus Christ on the cross. He completed the work of saving mankind on the cross. You can do nothing to save yourself. However, when you choose to place your faith in Jesus and His completed work you are a recipient of that salvation granted you through the Grace of our Heavenly Father. But it is not the faith, obedience or grace that saves you. It is the shed Blood of our Lord.

I don't know that I could have said it better......


Salvation is not, I repeat, NOT a result of obedience. Were that the case nobody would be saved. Christ is the only human being to ever walk the earth in perfect obedience.

Obedience is the result of regeneration and faith. That is what James is talking about. The evedince of true saving faith is works in a changed life. It is important to remember that James' letter was written to and for believers.

[StevenL]

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit is also, Whom God has bestowed on those who obey Him.

Which came first? The receiving of the Spirit or the obedience?

[RThibeault]

Hi, I believe salvation comes by faith through grace alone. I just found out that there is a doctrinal difference between the church I go to and the pastor's doctrine. He believes salvation is by faith and obedience.

I haven't directly asked him about the difference yet, I got this second hand, but the poor girl that asked me is so confused now, as she is a new believer.

Anyway, the pastor is resigned and looking to start a new church. He's a wonderful shephard, and servant, and even though there is this difference I will still be going to the bible study he has at his home. I've been going and never heard this before.

I'm not concerned with leaving the church or not as I don't go enough. It was dry before without a pastor for a year, and the church has flourished under this pastor, so I will miss that.

Is this a type of doctrine that he believes? I've never run across this before and am torn.

I'd appreciate advice and insight. Thanks, Tapero

Salavation is by grace through faith alone. But obedience is the demonstration of faith. If you have truly made Christ the Lord of your life, then you will be obedient to His Word to show your faith.

[MbiaJc]

Hi, I believe salvation comes by faith through grace alone. I just found out that there is a doctrinal difference between the church I go to and the pastor's doctrine. He believes salvation is by faith and obedience.

I haven't directly asked him about the difference yet, I got this second hand, but the poor girl that asked me is so confused now, as she is a new believer.

Anyway, the pastor is resigned and looking to start a new church. He's a wonderful shephard, and servant, and even though there is this difference I will still be going to the bible study he has at his home. I've been going and never heard this before.

I'm not concerned with leaving the church or not as I don't go enough. It was dry before without a pastor for a year, and the church has flourished under this pastor, so I will miss that.

Is this a type of doctrine that he believes? I've never run across this before and am torn.

I'd appreciate advice and insight. Thanks, Tapero


Aberham beliefed God and it was counted unto him for rightousness. He did what God said and by doing he was justified by his works. Faith without works is dead.

If that is what the man is teaching he is teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If he is teaching any thing else, he is teaching another gospl.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

By believing, it is counted unto us as rightousness.

By confessing we are justified. Same as Aberham.

It is the faith of Jesus and the grace of God that saves us. Not our faith or our works.

For it is by grace through faith.

[tapero]

Thank you all for your input on this subject. I appreciate it.

Sincerely, Tapero

[New_Wineskin]

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit is also, Whom God has bestowed on those who obey Him.

Which came first? The receiving of the Spirit or the obedience? Since the Spirit is needed for interaction to know *what* to do for obedience , that would mean that the Spirit comes first .

[soldout]

I don't know that I could have said it better......


Salvation is not, I repeat, NOT a result of obedience. Were that the case nobody would be saved. Christ is the only human being to ever walk the earth in perfect obedience.

Obedience is the result of regeneration and faith. That is what James is talking about. The evedince of true saving faith is works in a changed life. It is important to remember that James' letter was written to and for believers.

Amen