Bored by the "Rome question"??

[Bonifatius]

Dear all,

I get more and more bored by this. Yesterday it happened again. OK, living in Germany and being Anglican is not always easy, as this country is divided into two parties - Roman Catholic and Protestant - more than others. And Protestant here really means Protestant ;)

As an Anglican I am somewhat exotic in this surrounding. As I regard myself as rather *high* and hold many Catholic beliefs, I am asked very often: "And why don't you go over to Rome?"

Do you make the same kind of experience? I mean, what is the point in asking such a question? I do not go over to Rome because I am Anglican. What is the point in leaving one branch of the one holy catholic and apostolic to join another? Apart from that I find that much more is to say in favour for the Anglicans.

It alway seems to me like asking someone who drives a Mercedes Benz why he doesn't drive a BMW ...

Bored
Bonifatius

[AveMaria]

I do get asked that fairly often. I usually smile tightly and say, "Not until Rome approves ordaining women and lightens their view on birth control."

[pmcleanj]

I do get asked that fairly often. I usually smile tightly and say, "Not until Rome approves ordaining women and lightens their view on birth control."
Not until Rome stops insisting on improper submission to the Bishop of a foreign see.

[AveMaria]

Not until Rome stops insisting on improper submission to the Bishop of a foreign see.

Better answer than mine! Mind if I borrow it?

[pmcleanj]

Better answer than mine! Mind if I borrow it?
Not at all!

[Father Rick]

I usually just get asked "Old Catholic---what's that?"...

Of course, technically I'm not Anglican.... and very few people will ask a priest why he doesn't change jurisdictions..

but my answer would be identical to Pam...






BTW... Bonifatius, what part of Germany? I spent about 3 months in Mainz a number of year ago-- beautiful country!

[AveMaria]

Father Rick, last week someone tried telling me there was no such thing as an Old Catholic, and thanks to the info you gathered in that sticky post, I was able to set them straight!

So, just in case I've never said it before, I'm so glad you're on STR, you've contributed so much and we've all learned a good bit from you!

[Songspinner]

hmmmm....I always wantd to be an "Exotic" Anglican

[AveMaria]

hmmmm....I always wantd to be an "Exotic" Anglican

Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sadly, I don't think I'll ever be called an 'Exotic Anglican', I look too much like the-girl-next-door! :P

[Father Rick]

Father Rick, last week someone tried telling me there was no such thing as an Old Catholic, and thanks to the info you gathered in that sticky post, I was able to set them straight!

So, just in case I've never said it before, I'm so glad you're on STR, you've contributed so much and we've all learned a good bit from you!Helpful hint... when a 'die-hard' Roman tries to say there is no such thing... tell them that the next time they are at mass they should look in the back of their missal where it gives instructions on who may/may not receive communion.

It lists the Antiochian, Syrian and other Churches... and names the Polish National Catholic Church by name (which are OC, of course) and says they should "receive according to their discipline" or some such wording.

When they won't believe you, hopefully they'll believe the Roman Council of Bishops...:D

[AveMaria]

I'll definately remember that, although it was a non-denominational protestant who insisted there was no such thing.

[Colabomb]

hmmmm....I always wantd to be an "Exotic" Anglican
Just go Conservative Like me, trust me, you'll get your fair share of stares ;)

[PaladinValer]

Why not join with the Vatican Church?

1. The Anglican Communion is fully Catholic in every way
2. I like my women clergy
3. I like my married clergy
4. I don't enjoy that level of stringent enforcement of reproductive processes
5. The Early Church didn't really have a pope and nor do I want one now

[AveMaria]

Why not join with the Vatican Church?

1. The Anglican Communion is fully Catholic in every way
2. I like my women clergy
3. I like my married clergy
4. I don't enjoy that level of stringent enforcement of reproductive processes
5. The Early Church didn't really have a pope and nor do I want one now

Taken out of context, #2 and #3 are giggle-producing. ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[julian the apostate]

i used to be vatican catholic

oddest thing, since i started going ecusa i understand and appreciate rome more now than when i was a catholic

god bless the ecusa
god bless rome

i dont know where i would be without the ecusa

ps

appreciate the liberty you have as a christian and as an anglican christian
the older you get the more precious it will be to you

[AveMaria]

oddest thing, since i started going ecusa i understand and appreciate rome more now than when i was a catholic



That's fascinating - would you mind saying more on that? I don't want to put you on the spot, and feel free to tell me to go stick my head in the sand, but I was just interested to hear you say that.

[romaneagle13]

I think I understand where Julian is coming from. I too, as some of you may already know, am an Ex-RC. I have made my peace with the Roman Church by being Anglican. I was angry with the Church and considered leaving religion altogether, but I was saved from that sorrow by finding the Episcopal Church. Now that I can look upon the RCC as a uninvolved Episcopalian, I can understand some of their views a little better, because I do not resent them as I do not feel compelled to obey them. I see where they are coming from and why they feel as they do, even if I do not totally agree. But being Anglican is partly about celebrating our differences and our commonality at the same time. We do not all feel that we have to believe the same way in order to achieve unity, as they do. We enjoy our liberty and the democracy of our church while being able to see the Vatican from an outside viewpoint and much more objectively.

Julian, maybe this is what you were referring to?

[AveMaria]

Thanks for the explanation, romaneagle! I've heard similar sentiments from Anglican friends of mine who crossed the Tiber from Rome.

[Bonifatius]

Dear all,

thanks for your answers!

It's not that I didn't find reasons to bring forward in defence of the Anglican Church.

It were more the implications of that Rome-question, like "If you were really catholic, you would go over to Rome, wouldn't you?" As if the Anglican faith or Church was lacking anything. That's what drives me up the wall.

@ Father Rick:
I live in Stuttgart, capital of Baden-Württemberg in South West Germany and home of the Mercedes Benz cars (though I do not drive a Mercedes Benz ...)
Mainz has a very nice cathedral and good wine ;)

Greetings to all
Bonifatius

[julian the apostate]

avemaria<****at's fascinating - would you mind saying more on that?

at least partly it has to do with my legalistic nature (not rome's, mine)
things of the spiritual cannot be understood that way imo

to the ecusa's great credit and the priest who catechized me as it were i was able to start to break free of that

now when i look at things i see them differently through the eyes of faith, and not the eye of who is right and who is wrong,
hopefully anyway and not all the time,, and

everything looks different

the greatest challenge to our christianity is not departing from ancient practice, although that can be a problem , it is not conservative or liberal interpretations it is not islam or secularism,, it is legalism

someone posted the following the other day on another board:

I am dead to The Law .......... I am not in some hospital getting
better and gaining strength from the Law , I am not saved and set free from
it in order to go back ..... no , I am dead to The Law , it does not
order me , demand from me , inspire me , threaten me , or KILL me anymore
......... why ?

[AveMaria]

Forgive me... but everytime I see this thread title, I want to find a pair of ruby slippers, click my heels together thrice and say There's no place like Rome, There's no place like Rome, There's no place like Rome!


^_^

[romaneagle13]

Dear all,

thanks for your answers!

It's not that I didn't find reasons to bring forward in defence of the Anglican Church.

It were more the implications of that Rome-question, like "If you were really catholic, you would go over to Rome, wouldn't you?" As if the Anglican faith or Church was lacking anything. That's what drives me up the wall.

@ Father Rick:
I live in Stuttgart, capital of Baden-Württemberg in South West Germany and home of the Mercedes Benz cars (though I do not drive a Mercedes Benz ...)
Mainz has a very nice cathedral and good wine ;)

Greetings to all
Bonifatius

Bonifatius,
I agree that I am also tired of the people (especially the Catholics) who say, "well, if you are so Catholic, then why don't you come back to the TRUE church?" I always have to point out that there are differences and that the differences are what I choose to embrace. And I always have to explain that it isn't just about female priests and birth control (lots of Catholics believe in that and I could be cafeteria-Catholic if I wanted to be), but it is more substantial things like the governmental structure of the church (democracy vs. monarchy) and the ability to think for one's self instead of the church doing it for you, and getting back to basics (the Bible and the creeds).

Lieber Bonifatius, greet Heidelberg for me. I lived there about 20 years ago.

[julian the apostate]

75% of american roman catholics are practicing episcopalians
(that is only counting the clergy)

[UberLutheran]

The prevalent denominations in my hometown are Assembly of God, Church of Christ, Southern Baptist, Primitive Baptist, and Presbyterian Church in America (not the liberal Presbyterian Church, but the hard-core Calvinist one!).

Being a practicing Lutheran is downright exotic there!* My family of origin makes absolutely no distinction between a liturgical Protestant church with a sung liturgy, prayers are read out of a book, Psalms are sung, and wine is served at Communion -- and the Roman Catholic Church. ALL of us in this forum would be considered Roman Catholics if we were to visit my FoO!

(I couldn't bring myself to tell my FoO that when a nearby Catholic church burned down, my Lutheran church extended the use of our church and changed our Sunday worship time so everybody could worship on Sunday morning -- that, and the Catholic church and my church shared several common services! That would have been like telling my FoO that I'd substituted marijuana for oregano in the spaghetti sauce!)

In my hometown, The one ELCA Lutheran church in my hometown has maybe 250 members; the one Episcopal church has about 150 members.

By contrast, in Austin the two really large Episcopal and ELCA churches each have about 3,000 members.

----------==========**********O**********==========----------

*Enchiladas are also exotic in my hometown. So are fajitas. So are frozen prickly-pear margaritas in a salt-rimmed glass. For that matter, anything which isn't fried is considered "exotic"!

[AveMaria]

That would have been like telling my FoO that I'd substituted marijuana for oregano in the spaghetti sauce!)



^_^ ^_^ ^_^

I have a fair amount of AoG and Church of Christ in my extended family, and they think the same about me.

[Father Rick]

Well... my father was a prominent AoG pastor... so you can image what kind of heretic I've been branded!

[PaladinValer]

You know, I've been meaning to ask this question for a while.

How come did you go to a Pentecostal seminary instead of an Old Catholic or other more Traditional seminary, Father Rick?

[Father Rick]

LOL...

The million dollar question...


I started the first school at age 17, immediately after graduating high school. I did my undergrad at an AoG school and started a M.A. through Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. The more I studied, however, the more I gravitated toward the historic churches. So I left AGTS, got my M.Div. through St. Michael's (an OC seminary), and am now back finishing up the M.A. through AGTS, so I will actually have 2 Master's.

It may sound funny, but it was the Pentecostal seminaries that turned me into a good Old Catholic.

[Bulldog]

It may sound funny, but it was the Pentecostal seminaries that turned me into a good Old Catholic.

As apposed to a good ole' Catholic? ^_^

[AveMaria]

I started the first school at age 17, immediately after graduating high school. I did my undergrad at an AoG school and started a M.A. through Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. The more I studied, however, the more I gravitated toward the historic churches. So I left AGTS, got my M.Div. through St. Michael's (an OC seminary), and am now back finishing up the M.A. through AGTS, so I will actually have 2 Master's.

It may sound funny, but it was the Pentecostal seminaries that turned me into a good Old Catholic.

Thanks for sharing - I'd been wondering that, myself!

[Bonifatius]

It may sound funny, but it was the Pentecostal seminaries that turned me into a good Old Catholic.

I myself became an Anglican through studying John Wesley ... (at least he WAS Anglican, but people in my old Methodist Church were not so happy about it ...) :wave:

B.

[Bonifatius]

Lieber Bonifatius, greet Heidelberg for me. I lived there about 20 years ago.

Lieber römischer Adler :-)
yes, I will greet Heidelberg when I get there. It's a wonderful place, if a but full of tourists sometimes (I hope you were there as a student and NOT as tourist ... *ducksandrunsaway* ...)

Herzliche Grüße
Bonifatius :wave:

[romaneagle13]

Lieber römischer Adler :-)
yes, I will greet Heidelberg when I get there. It's a wonderful place, if a but full of tourists sometimes (I hope you were there as a student and NOT as tourist ... *ducksandrunsaway* ...)

Herzliche Grüße
Bonifatius :wave:

Danke sehr, mein Freund. Actually, I was a student when I was there---in middle school (I was 11-14 years old). My father was in the military, so we were stationed there from 1982-1986, prior to that we were in Ramstein.

Ich liebe Deustchland.

Hugs from the States, Bonifatius! :hug:

[ps139]

Shameles plug for the new language forums: http://www.christianforums.com/f465-german.html

;)

[romaneagle13]

Shameles plug for the new language forums: http://www.christianforums.com/f465-german.html

;)

Mio caro amico, amo anche l'Italia. Che bel paese e l'italiano e' una bella lingua. Ho bellissime memorie di Roma...ma sono una tifosa della Lazio. haha. :D

[ps139]

Ahhhh che bene!!! :)

[ps139]

(oops, wrong forum! che disgrazia! :D)

[romaneagle13]

Thanks, I am just trying to show my love for all--German or Italian speakers, Anglicans or Catholics. Love to you all!

(ps139, ho molto rispetto per la Juve e non odio la vecchia Signora, ma non ho mai visitato Torino. Conosco la citta' Roma, e perche ho scelto una squadra romana.)

[gitlance]

VIVA LA FRANCE!!! :yum:

[Stormi]

Lieblingsessen: Pork Roast
Lieblingsfilm: Gone With the Wind
Lieblingsfarbe: Turquoise
Lieblingszahl: 7
Lieblingsfernsehschau: Enterprise
Lieblingsgetränk: Cherry Coke
Lieblingstier: Polar Bear

;)

[PaladinValer]

**Cries because he can only speak English** :cry:

[AveMaria]

:scratch: Uhh.... :idea:

Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare. Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.

[Colabomb]

**Cries because he can only speak English** :cry:

Didaskw ellinikoV. Egw MaqhthV EllinikoV.

[cygnusx1]

Dear all,

I get more and more bored by this. Yesterday it happened again. OK, living in Germany and being Anglican is not always easy, as this country is divided into two parties - Roman Catholic and Protestant - more than others. And Protestant here really means Protestant ;)

As an Anglican I am somewhat exotic in this surrounding. As I regard myself as rather *high* and hold many Catholic beliefs, I am asked very often: "And why don't you go over to Rome?"

Do you make the same kind of experience? I mean, what is the point in asking such a question? I do not go over to Rome because I am Anglican. What is the point in leaving one branch of the one holy catholic and apostolic to join another? Apart from that I find that much more is to say in favour for the Anglicans.

It alway seems to me like asking someone who drives a Mercedes Benz why he doesn't drive a BMW ...

Bored
Bonifatius

perhaps the differences are still there between anglican and RC , but with doublespeak even Unity is possible , so I agree it would be pointless buying a Mercedes if you have a BMW ......... but if you drive a VW like me then that is a whole different thing .... ;)

Greetings Cygnus

[PaladinValer]

:mad: **Beats Colabomb into a pulp and employs AveMaria to be the barmaid for a week** :mad:

[julian the apostate]

most (have i said this before?) roman catholics are essentially episcopalian (at least the clergy anyway)
the question is not when will we unify with them

i am a triumphalist episcopalian, i am somewhat moderate however, in that i believe that there is salvation outside of the ecusa,

it is just that it is so difficult as to be unlikely to attain

greetings cyngus from the holy city of byzantium

cygnus wrote one of my all time favorite posts

he gets a special dispensation because of this

[Colabomb]

:mad: **Beats Colabomb into a pulp and employs AveMaria to be the barmaid for a week** :mad:
Actually what I wrote Paladin was....

(literally) I learn Greek. I am Student Greek.

[Cjwinnit]

most (have i said this before?) roman catholics are essentially episcopalian (at least the clergy anyway)

Could be. In the Republic of Ireland (traditionally overwhelmingly RCC) the Church of Ireland has had a 30% jump in attendance recently while RCC attendance falls steadily.

[AveMaria]

Actually what I wrote Paladin was....

(literally) I learn Greek. I am Student Greek.

*g* And what I said, more or less:

I think some people in togas are plotting against me! Oh, silly me, was I speaking Latin again? Silly me, it just slips out, sometimes.

[Victrixa]

most (have i said this before?) roman catholics are essentially episcopalian (at least the clergy anyway)

What do you mean by that? :scratch:

[julian the apostate]

look at any poll of u.s. clergy sexual activity and feelings on birth control, celibacy etc

will post info with link if you wish

something like almost 60% if memory serves, of u.s. clergy admit in surveys to having violated their vow of celibacy, i do not take that as a bad thing,

god bless the roman clergy , probably no other clergy is as commited

their opinions on birth control and celibacy and women's ordination are likewise out of the roman mainstream

(leaving out for a moment the average catholic parishoner the vast majority of whom disagree at will and whim)

at heart the majority of clergy are actually episcopalians with a pope

in many ways the average u.s. catholic is probably more liberal than the average episcopalian

[pmcleanj]

lin many ways the average u.s. catholic is probably more liberal than the average episcopalian

It's true, that the Roman Catholics I know in real life often shock me -- and I am a pretty liberal episcopalian. It's not a bad shock, just that thrill of slightly guilty surprise you get when someone voices aloud a thought that you've been keeping quarantined for its unacceptability; or when someone crosses the line of the presumed sacrosanct, and you find it wasn't sacrosanct after all.

It's an odd observation, given the conservatism of Roman Catholic online communities. It seems almost as though the Roman Catholics I meet online can't be found in real life; and the ones I meet in real life can't be found online.

[PaladinValer]

Half the paritioners, according to my priests there, at my official home parish are converts from the Vatican Church.

[Bonifatius]

Danke sehr, mein Freund. Actually, I was a student when I was there---in middle school (I was 11-14 years old). My father was in the military, so we were stationed there from 1982-1986, prior to that we were in Ramstein.

Ich liebe Deustchland.

Hugs from the States, Bonifatius! :hug:

Hi Romaneagle,

we have some army families in our church (I hope I did not say something wrong as they seem to make a difference between army and air force ...) and some of them were in Ramstein before they came to Stuttgart. Very nice people!

Hugs back :hug: ;)
Bonifatius

[Victrixa]

It's an odd observation, given the conservatism of Roman Catholic online communities. It seems almost as though the Roman Catholics I meet online can't be found in real life; and the ones I meet in real life can't be found online.

That's true! I know only one couple in real life who are traditionalist, conservative and Magisterium-obeying (Roman) Catholic Christians. (I put Magisterium-obeying just so y'all know what I'm talking about ;) )

It's kind of funny, but many Anglicans and Lutherans are more Catholic than some (Roman) Catholics! :scratch:

[pmcleanj]

It's kind of funny, but many Anglicans and Lutherans are more Catholic than some (Roman) Catholics! :scratch:
Well, not strange to me at all, since Anglicans are Catholic ;)

[Colabomb]

It's true, that the Roman Catholics I know in real life often shock me -- and I am a pretty liberal episcopalian. It's not a bad shock, just that thrill of slightly guilty surprise you get when someone voices aloud a thought that you've been keeping quarantined for its unacceptability; or when someone crosses the line of the presumed sacrosanct, and you find it wasn't sacrosanct after all.

It's an odd observation, given the conservatism of Roman Catholic online communities. It seems almost as though the Roman Catholics I meet online can't be found in real life; and the ones I meet in real life can't be found online.
That and I as a Conservative Anglican, only know a handful of other conservatives online (unless you count sites that are for the REC etc.), but the majority of Anglicanism in the world is conservative.

[masuwerte]

Perhaps the majority of Anglicanism is in Africa, and too poor to own a computer.

[Colabomb]

Perhaps the majority of Anglicanism is in Africa, and too poor to own a computer.
That's a good point...