Losing Your Salvation

[JustinWilliams]

Hi folks! :wave:

I am under the impression that Lutherans believe that one is able to "lose" their salvation or fall away from the faith.

I was interested in what texts are used to support this belief and what is taught that one must do in order to fall away from the faith and/or lose their salvation?

This is not meant to be a debate but I am just curious about some areas of Lutheran doctrine, especially soteriology. :help:

Thanks

Jesaiah

[filosofer]

Hi folks! :wave:

I am under the impression that Lutherans believe that one is able to "lose" their salvation or fall away from the faith.

I was interested in what texts are used to support this belief and what is taught that one must do in order to fall away from the faith and/or lose their salvation?

This is not meant to be a debate but I am just curious about some areas of Lutheran doctrine, especially soteriology. :help:

Thanks

Jesaiah

Howdy, Jesaiah. Long time no see! :)

This sounds easy to do, but in fact, it walks a very narrow edge. Consider:

Matthew 24:22-24
And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Then if any one says to you, `Lo, here is the Christ!' or `There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

In one sense the "elect" cannot fall away, as Jesus says here. But then the other side is that Scripture also presents cases in which some have indeed turned away:

Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Timothy 1:19
Revelation 3:16

[pastel]

Our former Pastor put it this way. It is possible to lose salvation, but it takes a very long time to do so...as in a lifetime. If we sin, grievous types of sin, without repentance, then die in those sins, salvation can be lost, but it isn't completely lost until the end. In other words, it really isn't that hard to keep your salvation.

I disagree with Baptists who have said to me, "Well, they were never saved in the first place." How can that be... because people do want the salvation, and sometimes a crummy life gets in the way. How is it their fault for this? If a person is repentant, I see no reason why they would ever lose their salvation. What about the thief on the cross? He was repentant at the end, and so therefore gained salvation because Jesus said so.

[helmikaarina]

A Christian is at the same time righteous and sinner (simul iustus et peccator). Salvation is totally a matter of God's grace - not something you could earn or gain. I've understood that Luther came to this conclusion after studying Romans very thouroughly.

[Qoheleth]

BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF APOSTASY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:

A. The angels who fought against God and His faithful angels:
1. They were created in perfect harmony with God and His will, and yet chose to
follow Lucifer in rebellion against God.
2. Revelation 12:7-9

B. Jeshurun: A name of intimate affection used to describe the nation of Israel.
1. Certainly Israel was the chosen people of God.
2. Look what happened: Deuteronomy 32:15-18

C. Solomon great king of Israel:
1. God Himself lays open the possibility that Solomon can, indeed, chose to
forsake God.
2. I Chronicles 28:9-10.

D. God issues a general condemnation against those who forsake Him:
1. Isaiah 1:28-31
2. Note that the eternal fate of apostates and that of unbelievers is eternal
death.

E. King Saul:
1. The Spirit of the Lord was with him. (I Samuel 9-10)
2. The Spirit of the Lord left Samuel. (I Samuel 16:14)

E. Selected misc. related passages in the Old Testament related to apostasy:
1. Jeremiah 17:5 2. Ezekiel 3:20 3. Ezekiel 18:24-26
4. Ezekiel 33:12-13

III. APOSTASY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:

A. Matthew 13:20-21 - The seed that fell, spouted and then died.

B. Matthew 24:9-10 - The children of God come under persecution with many falling
away from the faith.

C. John 15:6 - The branch of the vine that does not abide in Christ is thrown into the
fire.

D. Galatians 1:6-9 - Some in the Galatian congregation have deserted the Gospel of
Christ.

E. I Timothy 4:1 - In the end times there will be a great falling away from the faith.

F. Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is possible for those who know Christ to fall away, and to return
in repentance.

G. Hebrews 10:26-29 - Eternal punishment will be worse for those who have
abandoned the faith.

[Jim47]

Would our God be a just and righteous God if He treated an unrepentant sinner the same as a repentant sinner? Why would there be so many instructions in the NT about living our life for God and not for our sinful pleasures. Why would Jesus have showed us the way to go after our wayward brothers and sisters if there was no danger of them loosing their salavation? Why would Jesus have spent His whole ministry preaching and teaching the ways of God if they had no importance?



The scripture that Filo refered to>
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Heb 6:2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3 And God permitting, we will do so.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 6:7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.

Heb 6:8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

To think that we can carelessly live our lives and care not about God's instructions is to believe the devils lies.

This is the Revelations passage that Filo refered to
Rev 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

[ByzantineDixie]

Q...you were just the guy I was thinking of with regard to addressing this issue. In fact, I just went through the history of this forum to respond here with a reference to a previous post of yours (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10354958&postcount=4) on the subject that left a huge impression on me.

Peace

Rose

[Qoheleth]

Q...you were just the guy I was thinking of with regard to addressing this issue


Always nice to be thought of...even by a confederate:wave:

[ByzantineDixie]

[/color]

Always nice to be though of...even by a confederate:wave:

Pretty cavalier response for someone who'll be experiencing wind chills of -7°F today...while I'll enjoy weather in the balmy 40's. :P

:D Rose

[Qoheleth]

-5 at the moment with about 6" of snow, and still comin down.

Dont be to smug Rose :cool: , this is Michigan, tomorrow it will be in the 40s

[JustinWilliams]

Hi folks! :wave:

I appreciate all your ansewers....now I have a follow up question for clarification :)

Since one can willfully apostasize and walk away from the faith, how does this interact with the Lutheran understanding of grace and election?

From what I understand Lutheran doctrine states that the Scriptures declare that Christ died for all men, not just the elect as Calvinists state. Yet the term "elect" only refers to those who are of the faith. But one can only become a part of the body of believers through the working of God's grace because men are totally depraved and therefore cannot seek God without his aid.(Please correct me if I have misrepresented the Lutheran view here)

That being said, how can does one choose to turn from God once their "stone hearts" were removed and given hearts of "flesh" (Ezek. 36:26)? How does one have the freedom or ability to choose to turn from God yet not have the freedom or ability to turn to God?

Thanks

Jesaiah

Ps. Hi Filo! :wave:

[Qoheleth]

Allow me to repost this, Rose directed you to this link.


"When holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of it and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery and murder and blasphemy, then faith and the Holy Spirit have departed from them. For the Holy Spirit does not permit sin to have dominion to gain the upper hand ... but represses and restrains it" (Smalcald Articles).

True and genuine faith is not merely the acceptance of the story of Jesus as true. Even the demons believe this (James, 2:19). Genuine repentance and true faith is the work of the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the Word of God. Such faith can be lost by impenitence and deliberately and willfully allowing the flesh to rule in our lives (Rom. 8:12-13).

The Scriptures clearly teach that faith can be lost (Matt.12:43-45; Heb. 6:4-8; Matt. 13:20-22). A loss of faith occurs when,

1) A person carelessly and indifferently follows the will and desires of the flesh (Rom. 8:13).

2) A person continues to live in the gross sins of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-10).

3) A person carelessly or willfully neglects the hearing of the Gospel and use of the Sacraments (1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rom. 10:17; John 8:31).

4) A person continues to indulge his evil imagination and does not with the help of the Spirit strive against unclean desire. To feel temptation is far different from yielding to it (1 John 3:3; Matt. 5:27; Eph. 6:10-17).

5) A person allows the love of pleasure and ( riches and the material things of this world- fame reputation, etc. to have priority in life (Matt. 13:22; Eph. 5:5-6; 1 John 1:15-16; Matt. 6-24).

6) A person does not adhere to the Word of God and pray diligently for divine help and protection against the temptations of the devil, the world, and the flesh (Matt. 26:41; Eph. 6:10-18).

God has, according to His eternal counsel and will, determined that He will protect the believers in their weakness against the devil, the world, and their own flesh; raise them up again when they fall; keep and preserve them in true faith among many troubles and afflictions; continue to convert their hearts to true repentance and genuine faith If they adhere to His Word, continue to use the Means of Grace, and pray diligently (1 Peter 1:3-7; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 11:23-26; Phil. 2:12).

God Himself creates the moments in which He offers us forgiveness, grace, and salvation. God is certainly present at all times and in all places, but He Himself determines the moment or time when He draws close to us with the offer of salvation. Since we cannot control the time or create the moment for the conversion of our hearts, it is Important that we make use of those moments that God creates, the time when His Word is preached and the Sacraments are offered to us (Heb. 4:6, 7, 12; Luke 19:44).

Even in true believers, the sinful flesh, the old Adam, remains. There is a constant struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. In this struggle, believers are to be serious about warring ag6nrit their own natural inclinations and fleshly desires (Gal. 5:16-21; 1 Peter 2:11; Rom. 7:23).

The unconverted and unregenerate person resists God altogether and is entirely a servant of sin (Rom. 8:34; Rom. 6:16).

The regenerate or converted person delights in God's law, takes pleasure in doing what pleases God, according to the inner man (Psalm 119; 10, 11, 24, 97; Rom. 7:22).

The believer is aware of the constant attack upon spiritual life. For this reason, no child of God becomes secure in his or her faith but prays daily, "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief."

There are times, when every true believer will feel that he or she has lost his faith and fallen from grace. These are times when grave doubts arise in their hearts. This is part of the grievous temptation which our own flesh and the devil brings to us. Concerning this, the Lutheran Confessions say, "And although they (believers) sometimes fall into temptation so grievous that they imagine they perceive no more power of the indwelling spirit of God, yet they should without regard to what they experience In themselves, be encouraged and say with David, 'Nevertheless, Thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto Thee'" [Psalm 31:22b] (Formula of Concord, Article XI).(G. F. Wollenburg)


Q

[JustinWilliams]

Hi Q,

Sorry if this follow up question has already been answered but I would like to know how one who has been redeemed be once again judged for sins that have already been forgiven? By that I am assuming that the scope of redemption/salvation through Christ covers past, present, and future sins committed by the sinner. And so if the latter statement is true, how can Christ forgive all our sins yet once again judge us for the same sins that he has supposedly redeemed us from? :confused:

Maybe that is another difference in Lutheran theology in determinging the scope of salvation? :doh:

Thanks,

Jesaiah

[JustinWilliams]

bump

[SPALATIN]

[/color]


Always nice to be thought of...even by a confederate:wave:

I don't know that Rose is a Confederate except that she now lives in a former confederate state. I know that she spent some time in Iowa and I beleive she even said she stepped foot in the Greater state of Minnesota at one time.

Rose please clarify your Civil War leanings for us. ;)

[pastel]

Hi Q,

Sorry if this follow up question has already been answered but I would like to know how one who has been redeemed be once again judged for sins that have already been forgiven? By that I am assuming that the scope of redemption/salvation through Christ covers past, present, and future sins committed by the sinner. And so if the latter statement is true, how can Christ forgive all our sins yet once again judge us for the same sins that he has supposedly redeemed us from? :confused:

Maybe that is another difference in Lutheran theology in determinging the scope of salvation? :doh:

Thanks,

Jesaiah

Hi Jesaiah,
Is there a Scripture verse to back that up about the forgiveness of future sins? Is there a verse to back up the idea a person can be forgiven for unrepentant sin(s)? This is something my mother believes, so thus the reason for my questions.

Thanks,
Charlene

[JustinWilliams]

Hi Jesaiah,
Is there a Scripture verse to back that up about the forgiveness of future sins? Is there a verse to back up the idea a person can be forgiven for unrepentant sin(s)? This is something my mother believes, so thus the reason for my questions.

Thanks,
Charlene

Hi Charlene! :wave:

Thanks for responding to my question. The weekdays are usually a busy time for me due to my university studies, but I will have a response to your answer most likely Saturday when I have time to give you a decent response instead of a quick one.

Thanks,

Jesaiah

[pastel]

It says in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "

The keyword being = evildoers

Those who sin are not doing the will of the Father.

[ByzantineDixie]

Hi Q,

Sorry if this follow up question has already been answered but I would like to know how one who has been redeemed be once again judged for sins that have already been forgiven? By that I am assuming that the scope of redemption/salvation through Christ covers past, present, and future sins committed by the sinner. And so if the latter statement is true, how can Christ forgive all our sins yet once again judge us for the same sins that he has supposedly redeemed us from? :confused:

Maybe that is another difference in Lutheran theology in determinging the scope of salvation? :doh:

Thanks,

Jesaiah

Jesaiah...read Q's post again. How are we saved? We are saved by faith through grace. Everything Q talks about has its end result in the destruction of faith. No faith...no salvation.

All sins for all time were dealt with at one point in time, that is upon Christ's sacrifice at the cross...the sins of the believer as well as the sins of the unbeliever. So the suggestion that one cannot be condemned for sins that have been forgiven does not factor in the equation. Christ atoned for all sins. It is our faith, which has been enabled by God-given grace, that allows us to be beneficiaries of Christ's victory over sin, death and the devil. And, there are circumstances that can weaken, damage and destroy that saving faith.

Thoughts?

Peace

Rose

[ByzantineDixie]

Rose please clarify your Civil War leanings for us. ;)

Well, Scotty, in these parts we refer to that unfortunate time in history as the War of Northern Aggression! ;)

Peace y'all

Rose

[pastel]

You ever notice that for every verse there is on predestination, there are about five verses such the ones listed above? Predestination is for the church, and those chosen by God. Predestination is not an excuse for license to sin. "Hey, I'm a Christian! I can go defraud people and be excused." That is being a hypocrit, and unbelievers are truly sensitive to those kinds of Christians, and missjudge the rest because of them.

[Qoheleth]

Well, Scotty, in these parts we refer to that unfortunate time in history as the War of Northern Aggression! ;)

See see, I knew it. She's a Rebel


Q

[pastel]

See see, I knew it. She's a Rebel


Q

Haha...

Well, in my ancestry... we had people fighting for both sides, get captured, and given the choice of spending the rest of their lives in prison, or fight for the opposite side. They mostly chose the latter. So we have them on both sides, getting captured, and then becoming turncoats. Well, only one died in prison, so I guess he was true to the South, and the only one. :(

We have a cousin in Robert E. Lee... and we are descended from Francis Lightfoot Lee, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Robert E. is related to Francis...so that is the tie in.

Now that I've thoroughly bored everyone to tears..... :sleep:

[Qoheleth]

We have a cousin in Robert E. Lee... and we are descended from Francis Lightfoot Lee, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Robert E. is related to Francis...so that is the tie in.


Wow, thats very cool. The history of the US and its people are so intertwined that you could study this forever and not be bored. Well, I wouldnt.

My Fathers family is said to be descended from the eldest of Donatien Alphonse François de Sade. Its not a boastful thing, just a fact.


Q

[pastel]

Wow, thats very cool. The history of the US and its people are so intertwined that you could study this forever and not be bored. Well, I wouldnt.

My Fathers family is said to be descended from the eldest of Donatien Alphonse François de Sade. Its not a boastful thing, just a fact.


Q

Well, no one is perfect! :hug: