Spiritual warfare?

[TomUK]

Was speaking with a very charismatic friend about this and she said i should go to her spiritual warfare meeting. I'm not going to, but does anyone have any thoughts on 'spiritual warfare'?

[julian the apostate]

i tend to lose

[Wigglesworth]

I've been interested in the subject for years, and I believe it is an absolutely necessary part of the Christian life. It involves intercessory prayer, deliverance ministry, and walking in the authority that Jesus Christ has given us. :cool:

[PaladinValer]

Went to one once myself. Extremely montanistic and promised myself never to participate ever again.

[benedictine]

montanistic. What does that mean?

[PaladinValer]

Montanism was one of the great heresies condemned by the Early Church.

[benedictine]

Oh.

[PaladinValer]

Benedictine, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/montanis.htm

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Articles/montanism.htm

[AveMaria]

One of my aunts went to a several week long training class on Spiritual Warfare - they did stuff like learn how to cast out demons.

I was flipping through the 3-ring binder they gave her, and was a bit :eek: and :doh: at the list of different demons. It included: profanity, cancer, depression, learning disabilities, feminism, smoking, masturbation, AIDS, and a slew of others.

[TomUK]

I was flipping through the 3-ring binder they gave her, and was a bit and at the list of different demons. It included: profanity, cancer, depression, learning disabilities, feminism, smoking, masturbation, AIDS, and a slew of others

:eek: I was thinking of going just out of courtesy but now i definitely won't. At the Christian Union i go to, some of the more vocal members keep saying they see demons or look in the eyes of non-Christians and see demons. It's extremely scary and i don't really think it's very healthy. Saying that though, there was a great screwtape on the subject which i think may perhaps be applicable- i just can't recall which one :doh:

[AveMaria]

I don't know, it might be an interesting experience.

I should also point out that my aunt only made it about halfway through the training. You see, the day when they were turned loose upon each other to deliver their classmates from the various demons (which had been determined by the class leaders), Auntie was paired up with an extremely overzealous lady.

As the bottles of holy oil were passed around for annointing, overzealous lady got a fierce gleam in her eye, poured a generous amount of oil in her palm and proceeded to lubricate both her arms up past the elbow with the stuff. Auntie told me later, "I was suddenly frightened of just what she intended to do to me, and I bolted out the door."

[ps139]

Wow... well thanks for sharing guys, I know where to stay away from.
My personal opinion is that laypeople shouldnt be messing around attempting exorcisms. Especially if you take physical diseases and identify them as demons?
I do not disbelieve in the gift of healing, but not everyone has it, and it doesn't always work the way we'd like.

[Wigglesworth]

. . . overzealous lady got a fierce gleam in her eye, poured a generous amount of oil in her palm and proceeded to lubricate both her arms up past the elbow with the stuff. Auntie told me later, "I was suddenly frightened of just what she intended to do to me, and I bolted out the door."

:D

It's a good thing she got out of there before the rubber gloves were passed out.

[PaladinValer]

Wow... well thanks for sharing guys, I know where to stay away from.
My personal opinion is that laypeople shouldnt be messing around attempting exorcisms. Especially if you take physical diseases and identify them as demons?
I do not disbelieve in the gift of healing, but not everyone has it, and it doesn't always work the way we'd like.

I couldn't agree more.

By the way, the ECUSA does actually have a rite of exorcism, just in case you were wondering :wave:

[Iron Sun 254]

I couldn't agree more.

By the way, the ECUSA does actually have a rite of exorcism, just in case you were wondering :wave:

It includes a coffee hour afterwards.

[Father Rick]

Ok guys.... I waited a little before jumping in here on purpose...

I have been used by God in deliverance/exorcism on a number of occasions here in the U.S as well as in Germany and in South America. I have read many of the books out there on the subject of spiritual warfare/deliverance, etc.

Here's my 'professional' opinion, for what it's worth...

First, it must be noted that approximately 1/3 of the gospel record of Christ's ministry here on earth involved delivering those who were oppressed by demonic powers. This should show that this is an area of some significance.

Every Christian should be aware that we are engaged in spiritual warfare. Satan and his legions are constantly fighting against the Church-- both corporately and as individual believers. However, 'the gates of hell shall NOT prevail'. In Christ, every believer has authority over all the works of the evil one.

In Daniel, scripture is clear that when Daniel prayed, God sent an angel with the answer immediately- but it took the angel 3 weeks to get the answer to Daniel since it had to wrestle with a demonic principality enroute. This shows us that sometimes in our prayers, the reason we do not see the answers we are looking for is that Satan is fighting against what God is doing. Therefore, we should not give up, just because we do not see an answer immediately-- sometimes we have to preservere in prayer until we see the answer. Paul said "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, against principalities, against spiritual wickedness in high places". Again to reiterate-- while there are times that Satan comes against us, but he can NOT prevail if we are faithful and persistent in our prayer.

As to ministering deliverance-- while different believers have different gifts and callings, ALL believers have the authority in Christ to minister deliverance. Now, some Christians will obviously be used in this area more simply because it is where they are more gifted.

I Corinthians lists as one of the manifestations of the Spirit "discerning of spirits". Unfortunately, many Christians seem to confuse this with the non-existent 'gift of suspicion' where they 'feel' someone is struggling with a particular area. The manifestation of 'discerning of spirits' allows one to 'discern' what spirits may be active in a particular situation. This would include angelic as well as demonic spirits. It is not a 'hunch' but a clear cut revelation from God.

When dealing with those who are oppressed by demonic activity, God can-- through the manifestation of discerning of spirits-- show one exactly what one is dealing with. I have had this happen. Other times, one may not know exactly what opprssing a person, only that they are being oppressed. Either way, a believer has the authority in Christ to minister freedom and deliverance to those who are oppressed.

There are times when demonic oppression results in mental issues. In scripture we see the demoniac of Gadarenes who cut himself and lived naked in the tombs. Other times, the oppression resulted in physical illness. Scripture specifically identified 'a deaf and dumb spirit', 'a spirit of infirmity', a spirit that caused seizures, etc. Sometimes when there is an illness, it is a physical illness that needs healing. Other times, it is caused by a demonic spirit. Either way, wholeness can be found in Christ.

Many of the books that have been written on this subject record the personal experiences of those who have ministered in this area. They are frequently lacking in good theological content, although they may be helpful for me just to realize the reality of the spiritual realm and it's impact on our lives. Here in the west, we tend to ignore the more mystical aspects of our faith, and I have found that many, if not most, Christians are simply ignorant of the reality of these issues often denying that spiritual influence can/do affect the physical realm. For this reason, I believe many of these books, such as 'Pigs in the Parlor' fill a void-- even if the theology in them is not so great.

Now, on a practical note-- I don't go looking for demons. While we should be aware of them and their tactics, our focus should be on life in the Risen Christ. When I encounter something that needs to be dealt with, I just deal with it and keep going. I have found that for many, Satan will try to keep the attention focused on himself so that believers become sidetracked. Jesus told his disciples not to rejoice that they had power of the works of Satan, but rather that their names were written in the Lamb's book of life.

And always, it must be remembered... and stressed... that in Christ, "No weapon formed against us shall prosper, all those who rise up against us shall fall. Though the enemy come at us from one direction, he will flee from us in 7 directions..."

We have ALL victory and ALL authority through the work of Christ appropriated to our lives by faith.

[Songspinner]

Thanks for that Father Rick....Very interesting

I was once went to a church that was very much into spritual warfare....and obviously lacking Father Rick's wisdom...they informed me that I was possessed on two occassions...once for acting in a play (shakespere...obviously the work of the devil :scratch: )and once for being anglican :eek:

I don't believe I've ever been back into that church since

[AveMaria]

Eeek, let me clarify - I do believe there is spiritual warfare, and I'd like to thank Father Rick for a well written post showing his experience. My issue is more with those, like the overzealous lady (who probably would have loved a set of rubber gloves!), who deliberately get that gleam in their eye and go out looking for demons, and find them in every driveway, every crockpot, and in every living room.

[TomUK]

I have been used by God in deliverance/exorcism on a number of occasions here in the U.S as well as in Germany and in South America. I have read many of the books out there on the subject of spiritual warfare/deliverance, etc.

Here's my 'professional' opinion

I think that's point of my concern Fr Rick. There is a significant difference between someone like you engaging in these sort of issues, and things going on like the situation avemaria pointed. I personally think it's very dangerous, and it's something i've seen happen in my time at university that quite immature Christians are getting involved in the things you are talking about and don't have either the spiritual or theological maturity necessary.

[Father Rick]

I think that's point of my concern Fr Rick. There is a significant difference between someone like you engaging in these sort of issues, and things going on like the situation avemaria pointed. I personally think it's very dangerous, and it's something i've seen happen in my time at university that quite immature Christians are getting involved in the things you are talking about and don't have either the spiritual or theological maturity necessary.Well... I'm kind of split on this...

First, I was used in deliverance a number of times before I was a 'professional'. Now, it is true that I was 'in training' at the time to be a professional, but since I started seminary at age 17, it would be hard for me personally to have had a time when I wasn't either 'in training' or a 'professional'. The first time I was used in this way, I was 18 years old... and scared to death. I felt God said to pray for this man, so I went and stood in front of him and began to pray quietly. He immediately fell to the ground, curled up in a ball, and began hissing like a snake. Well, it doesn't take a lot of spiritual discernment to figure out what was going on. Long story short, the man had been a male prostitute, with all that implies-- but God set him free that night.

Now, since then, I've learned a lot... and grown a lot...

I don't recommend people going off half-cocked looking for demons to cast out. But at the same time, it doesn't matter who you are-- as long as you have Christ, you have the authority to take care of whatever arises.

But just because we have the authority doesn't mean we are supposed to cast devils out of everyone that has one. In Acts, the woman with the spirit of divination followed Paul around for days before he finally cast out the spirit. Why? I would say because it wasn't the right time yet. I have had situations where it was crystal clear the person was oppressed by an evil spirit where I didn't cast it out right away. Not because I was afraid or didn't have the authority-- but rather because it just wasn't the right time. The person wasn't ready to be set free yet. Personally, I believe that there should usually be teaching/training that accompanies deliverance so the person is not only set free, but is also taught how to STAY free. If I cast out a devil, but the person goes right back to their sin... what good has been accomplished? Jesus said that in those cases the spirit will come back AND bring 7 others worse than itself.

Now, I think it is a good thing that we teach laity the authority they have in Christ. Paul wrote that God gave to the Church 'apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers... for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry.' The 'saints'-- all the body of Christ-- should be trained and equipped to minister as needed. Unfortunately, many get the first part of the training-- there is a reality to demonic oppression and you as a believer have authority-- without sticking around for the second part of the training-- you must be submitted and obedient to the leading of God in how and when you utilize the authority you have.

This is where the maturity comes in. And spiritual maturity is not exclusive to clergy-- but is for ALL believers who will live a life submitted to Christ.

[•Amadeus•]

Spiritual warfare....wasn't that when Luther threw an inkwell at the devil??

That must have gave him the 'what for' .... :eek:

[Jamza]

Tis an interesting thread, I have the gift of discernment you see. Well, I say that, actually I just did a questionnaire at church and thats what it said one of my spiritual gifts were.

[TomUK]

Was that with 'Network'?

[Jamza]

nah, my church gave it to me

[Stormi]

Okay, this is fascinating, but really has me wondering ... spiritual discernment, what is this exactly? Then also what is the ability to sense good or evil in a room, for example? (Like this is happened to me a couple of times...very eerie feeling.) :o

[Jamza]

I'm not really sure yet; that's part of it. As far as I can tell, I think discernment can tell me whether or not someone is a Christian genuinely without knowing, I suppose God just tells me as part of the gift. For example, my best friend in school constantly gets drunk and sins etc. and I'd rarely spoken to him about Christ, but despite the fact he seemed a million miles away from God, I always got the feeling things would actually be okay, and that God's hand was still on him. I while ago I plucked up the courage to actually talk to him seriously about Christ, and he told me for the first time he used to go to church, even lead a sunday school thing, and that he was a Christian. Since then I think he's been changing, and I've been praying for him, I should have done something earlier, but I feel I did *know* he was saved.

The sensing good and evil in a room is quite eerie, but fairly normal for me now. I can really tell if the presence of God's been somewhere - and if it most definitely hasn't.

I think the gift is effectively the ability to see what's really going on. It doesn't mean I go around announcing that things or people are evil and burn them lol! But I think its just a general help, a mini little extra micro sense.

Still all that could be wrong because I don't understand my gift with any clarity, I just know what I feel. I should really go and research it.