Huh?

[ChiRho]

The uniqueness of the event went beyond the dimension of national tragedy. The perpetrators of the attack were Muslims who were attacking Christians, Jews, and “infidels” in general as well as the American way of life. New York City has a large Muslim population of which many are black, as well as a Jewish population of considerable proportion. At the time of the event there had already been a number of retaliatory attacks against Muslims. The city government was very concerned that “religious intolerance threatened to escalate to violence.” [Letter from Rudolph Giuliani to St. Peters Lutheran Church, 10/18/02]. The heavy proportion of Blacks and Muslims and Jewish participants as well as Christians in the Yankee Stadium event underscores the city’s desire to show that civic unity and patriotic unity existed between groups that held divergent and often-conflicting religious beliefs. The format and objective of the event was not to provide religious, ecumenical, unionistic, syncretism.

The format of the event consisted of a series of short presentations by representatives of both secular and religious organizations consisting of speeches, songs, and prayers. Participants included politicians, entertainers, military, and religious leaders. There was no specific church or religious doctrine or jurisdiction under which the event developed or took place. Participants were given liberty to offer strength and encouragement to the community through the particular groups they represented. No participant appeared jointly with another and none of the presentations of the religious groups acknowledged or referenced another. Rev. Benke’s prayer, even though criticized by many, was Christian. The context does not support conclusions of religious syncretism or unionism.

taken from the decision of the Panel which determined that Pastor Benke hadnt violated any rules with his prayer.

Are we serious? Because Oprah was there and because Mayor Giuliani says it wasnt a "religious event" it doesnt qualify as one? There wasnt an implied religious unity...only civic unity! Hah! I had never read the words of the decision before, but this is crazy! :eek:

This had everything an "inferfaith" service has, except a giant sign out front saying "Interfaith Service today...Remember, we all believe in the same God(s)"

:mad:

edit: Concerning the Dark Red text, what format would they expect to be followed during an ultra-interfaith service? This sounds like it was conducted to the "t", complete with voice from those who worship various gods such as the military (hyper-patriotism), celebrities, humanitarianism, moralism, etc.

This reeks! :sick:

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[SPALATIN]

taken from the decision of the Panel which determined that Pastor Benke hadnt violated any rules with his prayer.

Are we serious? Because Oprah was there and because Mayor Giuliani says it wasnt a "religious event" it doesnt qualify as one? There wasnt an implied religious unity...only civic unity! Hah! I had never read the words of the decision before, but this is crazy! :eek:

This had everything an "inferfaith" service has, except a giant sign out front saying "Interfaith Service today...Remember, we all believe in the same God(s)"

:mad:

edit: Concerning the Dark Red text, what format would they expect to be followed during an ultra-interfaith service? This sounds like it was conducted to the "t", complete with voice from those who worship various gods such as the military (hyper-patriotism), celebrities, humanitarianism, moralism, etc.

This reeks! :sick:

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

Just goes to show that if you use specific verbiage you can get anything to pass. remember Clintons famous "depends on what you mean by sexual relations" comment. He wanted a definition clear and cut as to what was considered to be sexual relations.

[pastel]

The secular world is trying its hardest to split the Christian community, and doing a fine job of it, so it seems. :cry:

[CrossWiseMag]

At least the LCMS decision was chock-full of supporting Scriptural citations to show the panel's reasoning.

Oh, wait.

[pastel]

What now? :(

[ChiRho]

What now?

I think Luther gave us some advice for dealing with Pastors who act like this:

Pastor Benke and President Kieschnick should "not only to be refused food, but also to be chased out by dogs and pelted with dung" (The Large Catechism, Preface).

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[night2day]

No idea why people still try to state it was a mere civic event when it was dubbed: "A Prayer for America". Not to mention Mayor Giuliani must have a rather short memory regarding his own press release for the event:

Archives of the Mayor’s Press Office*

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
*******
Release #321-01
Date:* Thursday, September 20, 2001

Contact:* OEM Joint Information Ctr.
******
646-756-3030,3028,3029,3024

MAYOR GIULIANI ANNOUNCES “A PRAYER FOR AMERICA”

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani today announced “A Prayer for America,” an interfaith service for the families and colleagues of the victims of the World Trade Center tragedy.

The event will take place at Yankee Stadium on Sunday, September 23 at 2:30 p.m., rain or shine. The services will be broadcast live via satellite to large screens at KeySpan Park in Coney Island, Brooklyn, and the Richmond County Savings Bank Ballpark at St. George in Staten Island. Doors at all three stadiums will open at 11 a.m., and seats will not be held after 2:00 p.m. Mayor Giuliani and Governor George Pataki will speak at the event, along with Cardinal Egan, Imam Pasha, and other leaders of the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths.

“This event will give families of victims and those affected by the tragedy an opportunity to come together, worship together, and gain strength from the support of their fellow New Yorkers, and fellow Americans,” said Mayor Giuliani. “I encourage all New Yorkers to participate in their own way – either at the event, through their houses of worship or in their homes.”

Tickets for the event will be distributed free of charge, with priority going to family members of victims and to rescue workers. Tickets will be distributed from 8 a.m. Friday until noon Saturday at the following New York Police Department precincts: In Manhattan, the 13th Precinct (718-2873280/7894) and the 90th Precinct (718-963-5357/5358); in Queens, the 107th Precinct (718) 969-7472-7475) and the 112th Precinct (718-520-0840/0797); and in Staten Island, the 122nd Precinct (718-667-22220/2219/5431). Tickets will also be available through the Family Assistance Center (Pier 94, Manhattan).

Victims’ family members from outside New York City may contact the following agencies for ticket-distribution information: Nassau County Police Department (516-573-7540), Westchester County Police Department (914-741-4358), Suffolk County Police Department (631-852-6381), New Jersey State Police (866-NS-CRISIS), and the Connecticut State Police (860-524-5212).

The use of mass transportation to and from this event is strongly encouraged. Please note that no bags, backpacks, umbrellas or bottles will be permitted at event locations. The event will also be broadcast via satellite at local houses of worship, and on television. People who are not ticket holders strongly advised not to come to the stadiums.

Families and colleagues of victims of last week’s tragedy can contact 646-710-6245 for further information.

Media interested in covering this event will be receiving instructions shortly about credentialing.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2001b/pr321-01.html******

(*taken from www.crisisinthelcms.org/appendixA.htm)

Of course, since a certain Pastor Benke and President Kieschnick can't seem to readily recall the nature of God and question the nature of the Trinity Christians serve and profess, shouldn't be too surprising they were unable to read what the mayor of New York himself stated in this and other news releases.

It's unfortunate the panel which declared Benke not guilty of breaking any rules with his prayer, let alone his presence, overlooked the fact he broke the very first commandment.

[KagomeShuko]

:sigh: Just what are we goin to do with these officials? You can't please everyone, but at least sticking with the truth would make people more happy than this nonsense. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[CrossWiseMag]

Okay, I love a good Yankee Stadium bashing just as much as the next guy, but I'm curious -- what prompted this thread, ChiRho? Did you just run across this report today or what? (I don't think it's something new, but I could be wrong!)

Like I said -- it doesn't bother me -- I'm just curious what prompted you to post it!

[Lutherrunner]

I guess I don't understand this thread?......what happened?....what was wrong?

[Protoevangel]

I guess I don't understand this thread?......what happened?....what was wrong?

20 Sep 2001


New York Mayor Rudolph Guiliani announced “A Prayer for America” at Yankee Stadium for the coming Sunday, inviting people to come “worship together.” Benke asked Kieschnick for permission to participate, warning him that the effect on the Synod would be divisive if the event was televised. After Benke assured him there were no restrictions upon his witness, and without consulting the rest of the Praesidium (the Vice Presidents), Kieschnick gave Benke permission to participate.

The effect has been divisive.

http://www.crisisinthelcms.org

[ByzantineDixie]

You know the frustrating thing for me? This incident is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things yet the conservatives have been clamouring over this for over three years now. While this event has attracted all of their attention and solicited all of their ire, the subtle, more insidous problems, remain unchecked and the damage continues.

I thought CWM's analysis in another thread was on the money. The real problem is Lutheranism being turned in to "just another protestant" denomination by the more liberal factions in the synod. The Yankee Stadium event is a symptom of that...but in my business, it wouldn't take me long to get fired if I spent all my time battling the symptoms instead of identifying and mitigating root cause.

The solution to all of our problems is not to demand repentance from Benke...although it would be nice if only for the sake of synod unity he would humble himself enough to do so...it would be better for us to find out what has happened in our practice of Lutheranism that brought us to this place and start to work there.

Father John W. Fenton presents a good case for what has happened to Lutheranism in his paper, What Options do the Confessions Give Us? (http://www.ziondetroit.org/writings/confessions-options.php) Here is root cause. All this ugliness and hostility over the Benke event has resulted in misplaced passions. We are distracted by the effects and fail to focus on the causes.

Our Confessions say blessed Mary prays for the church...I sure hope she's praying for our LCMS now as we desperately need those prayers.

Peace

Rose

[ChiRho]

You know the frustrating thing for me? This incident is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things yet the conservatives have been clamouring over this for over three years now. While this event has attracted all of their attention and solicited all of their ire, the subtle, more insidous problems, remain unchecked and the damage continues.

I thought CWM's analysis in another thread was on the money. The real problem is Lutheranism being turned in to "just another protestant" denomination by the more liberal factions in the synod. The Yankee Stadium event is a symptom of that...but in my business, it wouldn't take me long to get fired if I spent all my time battling the symptoms instead of identifying and mitigating root cause.

The solution to all of our problems is not to demand repentance from Benke...although it would be nice if only for the sake of synod unity he would humble himself enough to do so...it would be better for us to find out what has happened in our practice of Lutheranism that brought us to this place and start to work there.

Father John W. Fenton presents a good case for what has happened to Lutheranism in his paper, What Options do the Confessions Give Us? (http://www.ziondetroit.org/writings/confessions-options.php) Here is root cause. All this ugliness and hostility over the Benke event has resulted in misplaced passions. We are distracted by the effects and fail to focus on the causes.

Our Confessions say blessed Mary prays for the church...I sure hope she's praying for our LCMS now as we desperately need those prayers.

Peace

Rose

Wow! This clamouring conservative pauses for a second to regain his footing.

First of all, to answer CWM's question to "Why now?" (coupled with Rose's assessment that I am late and miss the point), I offer the following:

1) I have been a Lutheran now for the grand total of 1 year 2 months (if you include Catechesis 1 year 8 months). So the three year thing doesnt apply to me. I think I have some more time to clamour coming to me! :P

2) With all of the dialogue about GK over the last couple days, I decided to find out more about him specifically. I think you will all agree that the "Yankee Prayer" incident cannot be dismissed or overlooked when one is finding information about the President's recent decisions. I had never read the Panel's actual report and wanting to give Pstr. Benke and Pres. K the benefit of the doubt (although with much relunctance), I decided to read the report in it's entirety. Much disturbed me about what I read, but the paragraphs that I have copied to this thread, bothered me the most. My first reaction was to post it here, where Lutherans dwell. I apologize to those individuals who have dealt with this topic so extensively that they are fatigued to even see another post about it. Perhaps my decision to post it was made in haste...I often suffer from too much haste! :doh: And I apologize for frustrating anyone that believes my assessment misses the broad picture.

3) I dont believe that Syncretism is "small potatoes". I think the Benke "prayer" is rather a large deal and because of where I live, Fort Wayne, this issue may begin to whither at times, but then Pres. K decides to pay a visit and preach from the Seminary Chapel's pulpit. Instant issue re-visitation.

I have read Father Fenton's paper and fully agree with nearly all of his complaints. My jury is still out on his proposed solutions. Rose, in the near future, I believe we have planned meeting to discuss this further...

Later

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[SPALATIN]

Wow! This clamouring conservative pauses for a second to regain his footing.

First of all, to answer CWM's question to "Why now?" (coupled with Rose's assessment that I am late and miss the point), I offer the following:

1) I have been a Lutheran now for the grand total of 1 year 2 months (if you include Catechesis 1 year 8 months). So the three year thing doesnt apply to me. I think I have some more time to clamour coming to me! :P

2) With all of the dialogue about GK over the last couple days, I decided to find out more about him specifically. I think you will all agree that the "Yankee Prayer" incident cannot be dismissed or overlooked when one is finding information about the President's recent decisions. I had never read the Panel's actual report and wanting to give Pstr. Benke and Pres. K the benefit of the doubt (although with much relunctance), I decided to read the report in it's entirety. Much disturbed me about what I read, but the paragraphs that I have copied to this thread, bothered me the most. My first reaction was to post it here, where Lutherans dwell. I apologize to those individuals who have dealt with this topic so extensively that they are fatigued to even see another post about it. Perhaps my decision to post it was made in haste...I often suffer from too much haste! :doh: And I apologize for frustrating anyone that believes my assessment misses the broad picture.

3) I dont believe that Syncretism is "small potatoes". I think the Benke "prayer" is rather a large deal and because of where I live, Fort Wayne, this issue may begin to whither at times, but then Pres. K decides to pay a visit and preach from the Seminary Chapel's pulpit. Instant issue re-visitation.

I have read Father Fenton's paper and fully agree with nearly all of his complaints. My jury is still out on his proposed solutions. Rose, in the near future, I believe we have planned meeting to discuss this further...

Later

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

ChiRho and Rose,

I, myself have only really gotten into the matter of the Yankee Stadium event over the past 2 years. I had heard extensively about it while part of the Yahoo LCMS issues group and then again on Lutherquest. Which is why I spend most of my time here. Only if something really irks me about that situation do I air it out here.

I believe that CrossWiseMag assessed the whole situation brilliantly. It is often hard to do that from reading the posts at LQ. I believe the best answer like Rose said is to be pro-active and fight the cause and not the symptoms.

I dread the thought that the LCMS will be taken over by the group that CWM said Kieschnick is part and parcel of in the scheme of things. I doubt that the liberals will be able to take it over as there numbers are weak, but those two groups do appear to be using each other.

[CrossWiseMag]

ChiRho,

I certainly would not want to deny you the opportunity to vent! This whole thing has definitely been vent-worthy. I was just curious about what happened to make you think of Yankee Stadium again! :) And if anyone is tired of hearing about it, they can just skip the thread!


Rose, I have not read Pr. Fenton's paper yet, but I have to say I'm not entirely comfortable with some of the implications I've seen drawn from that paper in other discussions. That paper, and the response (I think from Pr. Peperkorn?) would be a great thread subject. I struggle to understand the balance between "sola Scriptura" and a respect for tradition, and how that is put into practice.

David

[revjpw]

It's unfortunate the panel which declared Benke not guilty of breaking any rules with his prayer, let alone his presence, overlooked the fact he broke the very first commandment.

It needs to be said that the dispute resolution panel did NOT declare Benke "not guilty." The CCM rulings opened up some loop holes that allowed the charges against Benke to simply go away. No verdict was ever reached. Had the process been allowed to go through, and had it been done according to proper LCMS procedures (big "ifs" I know), then there would have had to be a verdict and the only one that could have come about was "guilty" of the charges of syncretism.


DaRev

[ChiRho]

It needs to be said that the dispute resolution panel did NOT declare Benke "not guilty." The CCM rulings opened up some loop holes that allowed the charges against Benke to simply go away. No verdict was ever reached. Had the process been allowed to go through, and had it been done according to proper LCMS procedures (big "ifs" I know), then there would have had to be a verdict and the only one that could have come about was "guilty" of the charges of syncretism.


DaRev

Could you elaborate a bit or atleast point me to a place to find out more about the loophole and the CCM rulings that allowed this to just go away?

[night2day]

You know the frustrating thing for me? This incident is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things...

A Christian Pastor praying alongside Muslims, Jews, Sihks, Hindus, etc is small potatoes? In the grand scheme of things, why should any Christian, much less a Pastor, pray with those who worship idols/false gods? That's basically giving a nod to those who feel Christianity shouldn't be proclaimed and Jesus pointed to as the Way, the Truth, and the Life simply because it just might offend someone who thinks Jesus should be no more revered than Buddha or Allah.

Exodus 20: 3-5
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me..."

Isaiah 42: 5-8
"Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

Kieschnick giving a heretical view regarding Christ's sacrifice on the LCMS FAQ section, some redefining the Holy Trinity, while others are more focused on reforming the LCMS into another Thrivent don't even touch the surface.

What happened at the stadium is certainly not small potatoes. But a reflection of a much larger problem. What's even more disturbing is when Scripture clearly speaks against it, Scripture is then discarded and man-made rules are used instead for justification.

The permission of an "Ecclesiastical Supervisor", or anyone else, doesn't amount to much if anything when it's in direct conflict with God's word.

[revjpw]

Could you elaborate a bit or atleast point me to a place to find out more about the loophole and the CCM rulings that allowed this to just go away?

There were two rulings handed down by the CCM. One basically says that the seated synodical president is answerable to no one except the synod in convention.
The other said that if a synodical official acted with the permission of his ecclesiastical supervisor, then that official is not accountable.

Benke clearly violated the First Commandment and other synodical bylaws regarding syncretism and unionism by his participation in the Yankee Stadium multi-faith service on 9/23/01. By his own admission his participation was syncretistic. But because he did so with the permission of his ecclesiastical supervisor, namely President Keischnick, Benke is not accountable for his actions and thereby cannot be charged as such. Therefore, the charges against him simply went away.
In reality, the dispute resolution panel never really ruled on the case at all.


DaRev

[ByzantineDixie]

Well, it appears I have left a bit of a mess in my wake this morning...and I have some 'splainin' to do!



1) For using the words "small potatoes". In retrospect I cannot believe how disrespectful the use of this term was. To declare any sin against God's Law as "small potatoes" is indeed offensive. My sincerest apologies.

2) For implying that this topic was not worthy of discussion. CWM put me in my place when he rightly said if I don't like the subject I don't have to read the thread. I agree. My frustration with the repeated emphasis on this particular event is of no concern or consequence to y'all. You would think by now I would have learned not to wear my heart on my posts...but that doesn't always happen. I'll try to do better next time.

3) For attempting to divert the topic. CWM caught me again (watch closely y'all, I do this quite a bit) in my attempt to take the topic in my preferred direction. He is correct...if I want to talk about Fr. Fenton's paper I should start a thread concerning Fr. Fenton's paper, not attempt to divert this one.

4) For attempting to cut short ChiRho's entitled clamouring time. Indeed, since he has only been a Lutheran for less than 2 years...he has some extra time coming to him for clamouring. (How does a kid who has only been Lutheran for such a short time manage to know more than an old gal who has been Lutheran for almost 15 years? :scratch: Not fair! ;) )



And I apologize for frustrating anyone that believes my assessment misses the broad picture.

Don't apologize to me...I have an opinion on the topic, you have yours. It's about time we disagreed on something. It has been a while and I was getting worried! :D

What happened at the stadium is certainly not small potatoes. But a reflection of a much larger problem.

You've made my point...it is a reflection of a larger problem. My concern with the intense focus on the Benke incident is that we overlook the bigger picture.

Peace

Rose

[CrossWiseMag]

Rose,

I wasn't trying to "call you out" or anything! I was actually hinting (*HINT*HINT) that you start a new thread on Pr. Fenton's paper. I really do think that would be a good discussion. And I wasn't thinking of you either, when I made the remark about people not having to read the thread. So in both cases, it looks like a guilty conscience at work. ;) It reminds me of a sermon -- the pastor might sometimes speak generically, but the Law can hit us hard if it needs to!

[night2day]

...My frustration with the repeated emphasis on this particular event is of no concern or consequence to y'all...

To note, what occured within the stadium interfaith worship service (er, just in case a reminder for everyone needed to be given this was not a civic event at all, not advertised as such) has had deep ramifications within the LCMS for a reason. It's not just that a Christian, a Pastor no less, helped lead massive among of people from various faiths into worship, he also did so with the clergy of those other religions.

There was a situation in Pennsylvania not long after 9/11 when another LCMS pastor was asked to lead a type of memorial service for those killed near where the passengers struggled to bring down the commercial aircraft. He mad it clear he would not hold a service with clergy from another religion. Nor would it be an interfaith service. But purely Christian where the Gospel was fully presented to all who heard.

The two services should be noted for their startling contrasts. One denied Christ, one upheld Him. One denied the Gospel, while the other did not. One compromised the Christian faith, while the other did not.

I don't believe the Benke matter was decisive in the strict sense of the term. All it did was make public (complete with mass media coverage I will add) deep rooted concerns in the synod regarding the Gospel which has plagued just about every denomination that claims to hold to the very basics of the Christian faith. Concerns which were already present and in place. What the synod is dealing with is something that's affecting all Christendom.

And that is whether or not to remain true to and proclaim the Gospel within all it's purity.

1 Timothy 1:1-2 and 2 Timothy 4:3-4 speaks of "the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils". And many a universal creed which states "it doesn't matter what you belive in as long as you're sincere" certainly qualifies. And it's not something that has occurred overnight.