Women's ministry

[Abiel]

http://www.christianforums.com/t1183524-religious-extremist-and-violation-of-womens-rights.html Is yet another thread that has rapidly turned into a 'suffer not a woman' thread. Some of you will recall our foray into this discussion a while back, that turned rather nasty.

On one level, I am thinking, OK, I belong to a church with a firm and established postition, which needs no defending, certainly not from a theological half-wit like myself! On the other hand, I feel extremely vunerable to these attacks, what with being a woman who preaches and teaches, and believes in the mutual submission of Christians to each other, and that my husband is the head of our household, in the sense of 'chairman of the board' rather than 'dictator of how it shall be'.

Do you think I should just to stay away from these discussions? Certainly I dont respond at the point at which my blood boils! (this is usually when I am accused of disobediance) And they do seem to be terribly circular arguements, which get nasty.

On the other hand, I guess someone needs to make the point, and people (especially from churches which fully accept complete women's ministry) need to be fully conversant with the issues involved. For me, it seems a fairly straightforward case of the aspostle Paul speaking about specific cultural situations. Yet then the accusation is that I am reinterpreting scripture to suit myself, and might as well chuck the whole lot out. This always strikes me as one of the silliest of arguements, the equivalent of 'It's my ball, and I'm not playing any more.'

But I wonder if I am any better...

Let's chat Salvos!

[elm0]

I didn't bother looking at the thread yet, but I reckon I could type a lot of the arguements almost word for word as they've put them.

On one level, I am thinking, OK, I belong to a church with a firm and established postition, which needs no defending, certainly not from a theological half-wit like myself! On the other hand, I feel extremely vunerable to these attacks, what with being a woman who preaches and teaches, and believes in the mutual submission of Christians to each other, and that my husband is the head of our household, in the sense of 'chairman of the board' rather than 'dictator of how it shall be'.

In regards to the 'chairman not dictator' comment, Bek and I seem to have something like that happening, we discuss, consider, and try to make decisions together. Lately I would say Bek has been more in charge because of my current state, but she still talks to me about things before doing them, so I don't get left out of the decision process.

Do you think I should just stay away from these discussions? Certainly I dont respond at the point at which my blood boils! (this is usually when I am accused of disobediance) And they do seem to be terribly circular arguements, which get nasty.

Not answering in anger is good, its much easier to find the right word when you aren't upset. But still, I would probably suggest avoiding those threads, especially if you're not seeing any progress being made.

On the other hand, I guess someone needs to make the point, and people (especially from churches which fully accept complete women's ministry) need to be fully conversant with the issues involved. For me, it seems a fairly straightforward case of the aspostle Paul speaking about specific cultural situations. Yet then the accusation is that I am reinterpreting scripture to suit myself, and might as well chuck the whole lot out. This always strikes me as one of the silliest of arguements, the equivalent of 'It's my ball, and I'm not playing any more.'

I tend to find that the people I have talked to about this topic don't really listen to what I have to say. I've reached the point where I honestly don't see the point in even trying.

[Evangelina]

'A man convinced against his will, is of his own opinion still'

*shrug*

Sometimes I will argue - other times I'll take a deep breath and avoid the thread - as I'm doing now. :hug:

[Abiel]

I've reached the point where I honestly don't see the point in even trying.


Ditto...and yet...

well my two pennies wirth for this one has been to correct a statement along the lines of 'all Christians believe that'. I seem to have got away with it!

[elm0]

Well if you're squashing those generalisations, maybe some people will walk away with something new floating around their head.

[Andy Broadley]

I often wonder how many of the people who oppose ordination of women are really simply fearing the unknown. Ever known a Salvationist be opposed to it ? I certainly havn't.


We have always had women in positions of senior leadership, and their value has always been recognised and appreciated. General Booth said that 'some of my best men are women', and where the Army would be today without the services of it's women officers ius simply beyond comprehension.


The three greatest influences on my own spiritual path as a young person have all been women. My YPSM was a woman, as was the officer who had the greatest inflience on me. Finally, there was an extremely elderly retired Colonel that I used to spend a lot of time with, and after her promotion to Glory, had the honour of carrying the colours for at her funeral.

And the minister at my present church is also a woman.

To those who oppose womens ordination on Scriptural grounds, my reply would be that they presumeably also support stoning for blasphemy, in which case the producers of that Jerry Springer thing better watch their backs. And those that object to being told what to do by a woman obviously aint married!!

Shhesh!! It's about time some people realised that the patriachal society, that the Bible was written in and to, no longer exists and probably never will again (I refer of course to the allegded 'enlightened' western Christian countries)

[Abiel]

I had the experience of someone leaving the Corps when it became apparant that a woman would be in charge with no male covering. Not a salvo though- never liked much about us really-didn't like the 'works', didnt like 'whosoever will', etc etc etc wonder why they stayed so long really!

[Evangelina]

And ironically... William Booth was originally against women preaching :D

[Andy Broadley]

And ironically... William Booth was originally against women preaching :D


Wow!! OK, you now have my absolute, undivided attention. Tell me more

[elm0]

LOL, now you've done it! We'll never stop the girl now!!

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Does NOBODY learn in these boards? :P Quick, throw ITF the 'how to say a diatribe in 20 words or less' book! :P (and pass it to me as well, whilst you've got it)

You know I agree with you sweetie!

Sasch -> you guys have NO idea what you're in for!

[Evangelina]

LOL. Ah, a reputation... :P

I can't imagine William Booth being OVERLY against women preaching, since he was active in the more progressive churches of the time. But it's been said in many of his (and/or Catherine's) biographies that he was originally against the idea. I realised, though, that I don't have any particular biography to point to, so I hope this is good enough... :)
In 1852 Catherine met William Booth (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REbooth.htm), a Methodist (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REmethodism.htm) minister. William had strong views on the role of church ministers believing they should be "loosing the chains of injustice, freeing the captive and oppressed, sharing food and home, clothing the naked, and carrying out family responsibilities." Catherine shared William's commitment to social reform but disagreed with his views on women. Catherine was an avowed feminist. On one occasion she objected to William describing women as the "weaker sex". William was also opposed to the idea of women preachers. When Catherine argued with William about this he added that although he would not stop Catherine from preaching he would "not like it". Despite their disagreements about the role of women in the church, the couple married on 16th June 1855, at Stockwell New Chapel.
It was not until 1860 that Catherine Booth first started to preach. One day in Gateshead Bethseda Chapel, a strange compulsion seized her and she felt she must rise and speak. Later she recalled how an inner voice taunted her: "You will look like a fool and have nothing to say". Catherine decided that this was the Devil's voice: "That's just the point," she retorted, "I have never yet been willing to be a fool for Christ. Now I will be one."

Catherine's sermon was so impressive that William changed his mind about women's preachers. Catherine Booth soon developed a reputation as an outstanding speaker but many Christians were outraged by the idea. As Catherine pointed out at that time it was believed that a woman's place was in the home and "any respectable woman who raised her voice in public risked grave censure."


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wbooth.htm

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Knew it'd take her less than half a day to answer! :)

Good on you flame - always know where to get the 'stuff'...

Sasch

[elm0]

Sascha, its called 'googling', ask B to show you some time ;)

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

So dead... the whole blimmin' lot of you

;)

'get B to show me googling'... grrr... thinks I'm an imbicile does he? DOES HE?!

I'll show 'em!

Sasch... goes off to do some googling on a certain somebody's name and nickname!

;)

[elm0]

You found our wedding site in the list yet?

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

noooo... keep trying various avenues though...

Sasch

[Andy Broadley]

[/QUOTE]Catherine's sermon was so impressive that William changed his mind about women's preachers. Catherine Booth soon developed a reputation as an outstanding speaker but many Christians were outraged by the idea. As Catherine pointed out at that time it was believed that a woman's place was in the home and "any respectable woman who raised her voice in public risked grave censure."[Quote]



Thanks for that ITF. It kinda proves my point nicely. Booth was in the situation that many church members are in today. He was simply afraid of the unknown. He was opposed to Catherine preaching, until he heard her preach!! Then he changed his mind. He then realised what an assett she could be in the fight.

A lesson which needs to be learned by many people today before the church can move forwards

[Blueskies]

I, for one, am confused. I can't believe that our Father would simply discard us as unusable, especially in light of the brave and noble actions of the biblical women, from Sarah to Mary Magdelene. So what are we to believe?

Having grown up in the SA, I never even heard that women were not supposed to minister until I was grown. Now, looking at the present, I believe the Father will use what's available to bring his will to fruition. It is the arrogance of mankind to assume we know more than our maker. Does the clay turn to the artist and say, "What're ya makin?" No, it does not.

I have a calling, one that I have not taken very seriously until very recently, and one that is very serious indeed. Until such a time as I receive a visitation telling me to stop, I intend to do what I can to reach as many as possible before the end comes.

shalom.

blue

[elm0]

I, for one, am confused. I can't believe that our Father would simply discard us as unusable, especially in light of the brave and noble actions of the biblical women, from Sarah to Mary Magdelene. So what are we to believe?

Having grown up in the SA, I never even heard that women were not supposed to minister until I was grown. Now, looking at the present, I believe the Father will use what's available to bring his will to fruition. It is the arrogance of mankind to assume we know more than our maker. Does the clay turn to the artist and say, "What're ya makin?" No, it does not.

I have a calling, one that I have not taken very seriously until very recently, and one that is very serious indeed. Until such a time as I receive a visitation telling me to stop, I intend to do what I can to reach as many as possible before the end comes.

shalom.

blue

:thumbsup: You GO GIRL!! :clap:

[Andy Broadley]

Absolutely, go for it. And if the established church don't like it, that's their problem.

[elm0]

I just had an interesting thought. What was the purpose of God creating Eve?

Genesis 1:18 And the Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion who will help him."

Women aren't here to look pretty (although they do that well ;)) and do the housework. They're here to help men.... so that means we're meant to do the housework, and women are meant to help..... :eek:

Anyway, what better way for Christian women to 'help' Christian men than to share the burden of evangelism, teaching, etc.

[Abiel]

I just had an interesting thought. What was the purpose of God creating Eve?

Genesis 1:18 And the Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion who will help him."

Women aren't here to look pretty (although they do that well ;)) and do the housework. They're here to help men.... so that means we're meant to do the housework, and women are meant to help..... :eek:

Anyway, what better way for Christian women to 'help' Christian men than to share the burden of evangelism, teaching, etc.


I do not know hebrew or greek- but I understand that the word that means helper for eve is the same word God uses of Himself in scripture. Any clever salvos out there who can elucidate?

[elm0]

I may be clever, but I think I'll look up elucidate to check that it means what I think it means.

[Abiel]

Just hope it means what i think it does!

Add some clarity, expand a bit, make lucid.

[elm0]

Illuminate, shed some light......

[Abiel]

Yup. I think the word is 'ezer'.

[Andy Broadley]

As in 'ezer a jolly good fellow?'

[Abiel]

As in 'ezer a jolly good fellow?'


:P .