What is this Christian Growth Movement?

[Lutherrunner]

....that I am hearing ya'll talking about?.......You've also mentioned a couple other things I haven't heard of PLT or something like that ....and Jesus something?

[pastel]

Ya got me, I haven't heard of this either. Are these Lutheran movements? If not, I'm not interested... ;)

[Lutherrunner]

Scott was talking about it:

You are correct in that PLI is Leadership training, but as I said many conservatives feel that the leadership principles being taught by the PLI reflect a Church Growth attitude. That the reason for the training is to bring more people into the church by CGM methods. I only know of one person involved in it and even he said that many conservatives would consider PLI to be a liberal organization even if they were not. It is all perceptions here not necessarily the truth or what I believe.

The Perception of the conservatives is that Jesus First is for the liberalization of the LCMS. There are even ELCA members in the JF movement. Many know that the SP Kieschnick proferred votes from representatives in these groups. __________________
Scott Strohkirch

[SPALATIN]

....that I am hearing ya'll talking about?.......You've also mentioned a couple other things I haven't heard of PLT or something like that ....and Jesus something?

It's not really Christian Growth Movement, but Church Growth Movement. Much of it is really just a matter of stealing sheep more than witnessing the truth of Christ. It is running the church as a business instead of as a "church"
They are more interested in how many people came than they are about preaching the truth in word and sacrament. Many of these churches will deny the sacraments calling them points of obedience to God's word.

Go to a non-denom and look for a Cross in the sanctuary. If you find one great. Now see how long it will be before they take it down because it is offensive to seekers. Most often you won't see one hardly anywhere in the entire building.

Perhaps you have heard of "Purpose Driven Life" or Purpose Driven Church" by Rick Warren. "How to be a Contagious Christian" by Bill Hybbels. These books are fads and they put a focus upon growing the church by implementing modern techniques.


There are so many more aspects to consider and I don't have the time to go through them all. I will be happy to let my other compadres here chip in for the rest of the story.

[Lutherrunner]

Oh ok.....it's how I was talking about the SBC I went to in La over the weekend and the pastor was having a pep rally about the number of members....

And yes, the non-denom Bible Church my GF goes to went through that whole Purpose Driven Life thing....

Are the numbers going down in the traditionsl mainline Protestant churches due to these storefront churches with rock praise music and media screens?

[pastel]

Okay, is this Church Growth Movement in ELCA? Because it doesn't seem to be in LCMS, as far as I can tell.

However, I did find a link : http://www.missiongrowth.org/

for Mission Growth Movement on the LCMS web site. Is this the same thing?

[SPALATIN]

Okay, is this Church Growth Movement in ELCA? Because it doesn't seem to be in LCMS, as far as I can tell.

However, I did find a link : http://www.missiongrowth.org/

for Mission Growth Movement on the LCMS web site. Is this the same thing?

Charlene,

There isn't one church in America that isnt' being affected by it in one way, shape or form. You may not have direct contact with it, but it is there.

[CrossWiseMag]

"Church Growth" is not a movement based on a particular organization. It's a philosophy. It's a philosophy which says Christianity is like any other "product" that must be "marketed" to reach people. It is based on assumptions from the business world. Churches like "Willow Creek," the megachurch in Chicago, began as exercises in marketing. They surveyed people to ask them, "What do you dislike about church?" Then, they took the answers and created a church based around the principles gathered in their survey.

The trouble with the Church Growth Movement is that ultimately, it does not trust the Holy Spirit to do the work of conversion. Church Growth leaders will deny this. But their practice is built upon the principle that we must meet people's "felt needs," just like any product must fill a "felt need." This falls apart theologically when we realize that non-Christians may not "feel a need" for salvation, except for a proclamation of the Law and Gospel. This proclamation, on the other hand, is diametrically opposed to what non-Christians typically say will lure them into church!

The Bible tells us that the message of Christianity will, by its nature, be offensive to many. But it also tells us that the offensive message of Christianity is the very same message that works to create faith, by the working of the Holy Spirit. When we obscure or change the message of Christ and Him crucified, we dilute the Word, and dilute the opportunity for the Holy Spirit to work through that Word.

[sculpturegirl]

This is one of the reasons I grew weary of the non-denom churches. I was crazy pro-non-denom for a long time. I felt like I was going to the mall to hang out when I went to church. I didn't want a coffee house and rock music, I wanted Truth. *sigh*

[KagomeShuko]

Perhaps you have heard of "Purpose Driven Life" or Purpose Driven Church" by Rick Warren. "How to be a Contagious Christian" by Bill Hybbels. These books are fads and they put a focus upon growing the church by implementing modern techniques.



:sick: :sick:

Warren and Hybbels are so pumped up about this stuff that Zondervan even has a free book of excerpts from their book. Every single book is somehow tied back to Warren, Hybbles, or Willow Creek Community Church. They all basically say the same thing over and over and quote something from Acts 2 (I think).

Unforunately, so many people have jumped on the bandwagon when it comes to these things, that even if a church isn't interested in this at all, they are deinitely affected!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Lutherrunner]

What seems funny to me is that most of these growth churches or non denoms seem to be kinda fundamental and conservative.....(now don't take that wrong, cuz I know you LCMS are more conservative than us ELCA).....yet they try to act all hip and groovy.......

[KagomeShuko]

What seems funny to me is that most of these growth churches or non denoms seem to be kinda fundamental and conservative.....(now don't take that wrong, cuz I know you LCMS are more conservative than us ELCA).....yet they try to act all hip and groovy.......
I'm ELCA. .but I think I know what you mean about the fundies. . too much focus on law and not on gospel and grace. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[sculpturegirl]

I have relatives who attend Willowcreek. My Lutheran relatives are very cautious and weirded out about the whole thing. I have never been, but it doesn't appeal to me.

[Lutherrunner]

here are some links to critiques of Purpose Driven Life:

http://www.consensuslutheran.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=323&mode=thread

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/wilken2.htm

[filosofer]

I have been to conferences at Willow Creek [Hybels] (twice) and to Saddleback [Warren], as well as remote conferences two other times. I have read most of their writings and examined many of their Bible studies.

I think we have to be cautious in how we approach this. To assign motives to these Christians is tenuous at best. Yes, the focus is on marketing and yes the drive is on reaching "like-minded". At the same time, most of these people are dedicated Chrsitians who desire to proclaim Christ and him crucified. For that we rejoice:

Phil 1:15-18
Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel; 17 the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. 18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in that I rejoice.

The real issue is the proper distinction of Law and Gospel. It is not that they just preach Law. Rather, the Law is inappropriately presented - "easing into the Christian life" rather than confession and repentance, through the work of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, the Christian life becomes moralisms to follow, rather than Gospel empowering teaching/preaching. It is not any surprise that while many are attracted to the churches, many do not stay a long time, rather seeking another church for depth in their spiritual walk. Sadly, because of the confusion over Law and Gospel, they often drift to other "better Law-driven" ministries/churches.

And finally, our focus as Christians is sharpened and directed by the Great Commission. That is, we can not point fingers at others, then hunker down in a bunker and claim "At least we are faithful"! Thus, we join Paul, Peter, John, and others in the desire to proclaim salvation through Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth. Let's remember that Word and Sacrament are "means of grace", not "ends of grace". They are "means of grace" to accomplish God's saving work - read Luther's explanations in the Small Catechism - "to bring life, salvation, and the forgiveness of sins". Our hearts ought to be tuned to God's heart, the very God who "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth". Our goal then is not "just to be right" but "to be right in the truth - AND faithful to the Great Commission".

[pastel]

"Church Growth" is not a movement based on a particular organization. It's a philosophy. It's a philosophy which says Christianity is like any other "product" that must be "marketed" to reach people. It is based on assumptions from the business world. Churches like "Willow Creek," the megachurch in Chicago, began as exercises in marketing. They surveyed people to ask them, "What do you dislike about church?" Then, they took the answers and created a church based around the principles gathered in their survey.

The trouble with the Church Growth Movement is that ultimately, it does not trust the Holy Spirit to do the work of conversion. Church Growth leaders will deny this. But their practice is built upon the principle that we must meet people's "felt needs," just like any product must fill a "felt need." This falls apart theologically when we realize that non-Christians may not "feel a need" for salvation, except for a proclamation of the Law and Gospel. This proclamation, on the other hand, is diametrically opposed to what non-Christians typically say will lure them into church!

The Bible tells us that the message of Christianity will, by its nature, be offensive to many. But it also tells us that the offensive message of Christianity is the very same message that works to create faith, by the working of the Holy Spirit. When we obscure or change the message of Christ and Him crucified, we dilute the Word, and dilute the opportunity for the Holy Spirit to work through that Word.


It's beginning to sound like "leaven" :( or something.