Charismatic Lutherans

[sculpturegirl]

Is there such a thing as Charismatic Lutherans, who believe (and practise) speaking in tounges, laying on of hands, healing, etc.? I heard about a movement in the 1970s, but what about now?

[KagomeShuko]

Is there such a thing as Charismatic Lutherans, who believe (and practise) speaking in tounges, laying on of hands, healing, etc.? I heard about a movement in the 1970s, but what about now?
Hmmm. . .not heard of that. . .I mean, I don't know Lutherans who deny these things, but I don't know any who openly practice all these things consistantly, either. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Jim47]

Hmmm. . .not heard of that. . .I mean, I don't know Lutherans who deny these things, but I don't know any who openly practice all these things consistantly, either. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget


I've been a Lutheran for 50 years and I've never know any Lutherans who practice it, and any time I speak with non-Lutherans and say that I don't , I get bashed for not being baptised by the Holy Spirit or some such thing. I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues.

[filosofer]

Is there such a thing as Charismatic Lutherans, who believe (and practise) speaking in tounges, laying on of hands, healing, etc.? I heard about a movement in the 1970s, but what about now?

Yes, there are quite a few. Many of them belong to a parachurch group called Renewal in Missouri. Despite the bad press they get from the ultra-conservatives, I know from personal relationships with several of them (graduated from sem with a few) that they are solidly Lutheran. In other words, a person can be Lutheran and still believe in the extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit - these works did not necessarily stop when the last apostle died. However, as those in RIM note, these evidences are not above Scripture but are submitted to Scripture for testing. And no one I know in RIM denies the work and efficacy of Baptism or the Lord's Supper (often a charge against the RIM group).

[PurpleBunny]

I don't know of any Charismatic Lutheran groups in this part of Canada, but I did go to a Charismatic Catholic praise service once. That was rather... unusual.

[lonnienord]

I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues. I know it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues. Do you know that it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit by speaking in tongues?:confused:

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

[pastel]

I have heard of Charismatic Catholics, but not Lutherans. It would not surprise me if there were some. Perhaps speaking in tongues would certainly return in the end times. I would not doubt it was real for that reason alone. However, it is stressed way too much, and it cannot be forced on anyone. It is wrong to try to force someone to speak in tongues. Not everyone has that gift.

[Kaitsu]

The Lutheran church where I live supports the belief that gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues, prophecying, healing, etc are still manifest today, and meetings in which these appear are encouraged by the church leaders. The formal church services are much more rigidly structured and do not (as far as I am aware) offer any scope for such gifts to be displayed.

Such manifestations in a group form appear in special prayer evenings and evangelical gatherings with a more free format. They are not expressed with any degree of extra emotionality, but in a rather matter-of-fact understatement.

I have never experienced such gifts personally, but I am quite impressed when I hear someone talking in tongues with simultaneous translation. However, I remain on the fence as to what to make of it......

Kaitsu

[filosofer]

I've been a Lutheran for 50 years and I've never know any Lutherans who practice it, and any time I speak with non-Lutherans and say that I don't , I get bashed for not being baptised by the Holy Spirit or some such thing. I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues.


It is easy to generalize, and sadly this happens when discussing charismatics. The Lutheran charismatics that I know (and have read all their material) do not insist that everyone has to speak in tongues, nor have they ever given an indication my worship is deficient. The reason that Lutheran charismatics can take this view is that they realize that we are Word and Sacrament worship oriented/focused/driven.

[sculpturegirl]

I grew up with a charasmatic background. I speak in tounges on occasion, but feel that it is a private matter as Paul describes. I do not believe that it is necessary for salvation and do not feel that people who don't are less spiritual. I guess I would like to see, what Kaitsu says about his church in Finland- where services are traditional, but workings of the spirit are engaged to build up the church as well. Most Lutherans I know have never witnessed such "workings of the spirit" but all seem to agree that they exist and are Biblical.

I really value the theologica crucis of the Lutheran church and the administering of sacraments and would like to see more Lutherans engage in the power of the Holy Spirit. Please do not confuse this with an over-emotionality or a wacky service with people running all over the place. God has called us to an orderly worship.

Thanks for your insights!

[Kaitsu]

I guess I would like to see, what Kaitsu says about his church in Finland- where services are traditional, but workings of the spirit are engaged to build up the church as well. Most Lutherans I know have never witnessed such "workings of the spirit" but all seem to agree that they exist and are Biblical.


Orderliness and sensibility seem to be reflected in Paul's own description of such gifts, for example:

"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" 1 Cor 14:22,23

and

"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace." 1 Cor 14:29-33

In my church (Ev. Lut.), both the services and ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, marriage, funerals) follow a (more or less) standard format with four main sections: the opening, the Word, the event itself (e.g. baptism, communion), the close. I have never seen any expression of charismatics in any of these events (I work in the church). But there are other regular events such as prayer and song evenings, lectures, bible classes, prayer circles, etc where people are given the opportunity to speak/testify in public and/or pray in groups. It is in these events that tongues, prophecies, visions, words, etc are given to people. They are always orderly and controlled and always assessed publicly afterwards for their alignment with bible teachings. These events are always very warm, friendly and constructive.

I have no reason to doubt their authenticity, but would not like to see the background murmurings and ramblings (that appear in some other churches) also appear in the main church services of worship. Somehow it does not seem to belong there as it is disorderly, random, disturbing to others, and contains no public contribution or edification in general.

But maybe I'm just old-fashioned....

Kaitsu

[Jim47]

I know it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues. Do you know that it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit by speaking in tongues?:confused:

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

I did not intend any slur by what I said, I only repeated what I was told by many of them. I don't deny that some people may have that gift. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

[sculpturegirl]

In my church (Ev. Lut.), both the services and ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, marriage, funerals) follow a (more or less) standard format with four main sections: the opening, the Word, the event itself (e.g. baptism, communion), the close. I have never seen any expression of charismatics in any of these events (I work in the church). But there are other regular events such as prayer and song evenings, lectures, bible classes, prayer circles, etc where people are given the opportunity to speak/testify in public and/or pray in groups. It is in these events that tongues, prophecies, visions, words, etc are given to people. They are always orderly and controlled and always assessed publicly afterwards for their alignment with bible teachings. These events are always very warm, friendly and constructive.

I have no reason to doubt their authenticity, but would not like to see the background murmurings and ramblings (that appear in some other churches) also appear in the main church services of worship. Somehow it does not seem to belong there as it is disorderly, random, disturbing to others, and contains no public contribution or edification in general.

But maybe I'm just old-fashioned....

Kaitsu

This sounds wonderful, reverant, orderly, uplifting and Biblical!

[Treestand]

I am concerned that those here are forgetting Scripture. 1 Co 14:27-28, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." While speaking in tongues is not forbidden, without an interpreter one is only babbling or spewing wind to no good purpose. Do the churches where this is practiced fulfill the mandates of Scripture?
I have been to 1 Pentecostal service in my 55 years and I was revolted.
Christ is the center. Any other focus than on Him and what was done for us is concerning. To God be the Glory!

[KagomeShuko]

I am concerned that those here are forgetting Scripture. 1 Co 14:27-28, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." While speaking in tongues is not forbidden, without an interpreter one is only babbling or spewing wind to no good purpose. Do the churches where this is practiced fulfill the mandates of Scripture?
I have been to 1 Pentecostal service in my 55 years and I was revolted.
Christ is the center. Any other focus than on Him and what was done for us is concerning. To God be the Glory!
I'm not reading anywhere in this that they've ignored this important part of the scriptures. . .

We're not going pentacostal here. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Treestand]

I think you missed my point. I am concerned that Scripture is not being adhered to, not that we are going pentacostal. Although they are the ones that regularly include this practice as a part of their services. I am much more concerned that "charismatic" involvement is not being true to Scripture.

[pastel]

I think you missed my point. I am concerned that Scripture is not being adhered to, not that we are going pentacostal. Although they are the ones that regularly include this practice as a part of their services. I am much more concerned that "charismatic" involvement is not being true to Scripture.

It is my understanding the "tongues" they were speaking in Acts were actual languages. I have heard it said what people are babbling in some Pentecostal circles is just that, babbling...and has no meaning.

On the other hand, I've have heard someone was visiting a church, and they were from another country and spoke another language (in addition to English)...and was astonished to hear someone speaking in tongues, and they understood it in their native language. If that is the case, it is far more believable! In my opinion.... :)

[revjpw]

I grew up with a charasmatic background. I speak in tounges on occasion, but feel that it is a private matter as Paul describes.

Paul tells us that the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the Church and for the building up of one another. I would be interested in how your "speaking in tongues" in private is building up the Church as the Spirit intends that gift to be used.



DaRev

[sculpturegirl]

Paul tells us that the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the Church and for the building up of one another. I would be interested in how your "speaking in tongues" in private is building up the Church as the Spirit intends that gift to be used.



DaRev

I am refering to the aformentioned verse in Corinthians. "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." 1 Co 14:27-28

Tounges can be used to speak directly to God, when no interpreter is present. I understand there to be two types of "speaking in tounges". One being actual human languages and the other a heavenly language. "Though I speak in tounges of men and of angels..."

I am not interested in forming a Pentacostal-Lutheran church. Most Lutherans that I have talked to believe in the "gifts of the spirit" including, but not limited to, speaking in tounges, prophecy, and healing, but have never experienced or witnessed these things. Just curious as to why or why not.

[Kaitsu]

Regarding why gifts of the Spirit do or do not appear in modern times, I think there are at least two reasons given us in the bible, one is God's doing and the other is our own:


1) God's reasons:

"...This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Heb 2:3,4

It is clear from this that such gifts were given around the time of Jesus' incarnation because they had a broad purpose in God's on-going plan to establish, root and distribute the gospel on earth. I personally think the difficulty lies with our misunderstanding of the term "gift". These powers of the Spirit are not given as rewards for good behaviour, etc, they are tools to be used in doing God's work. However, if we compare our environment in established Christian countries with that in Jesus' era, there is nowhere near the same need for these powers anymore - at least there shouldn't be! We have our faith, we have our bible, we have prayer, we have direct access to God through Christ - what more do we need to believe in God? God should no longer need to continually testify on such a broad scale specifically through "signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." The following verse seems to confirm this view:

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:31

However, I am sure there are still occasions when it is according to his will to prophesy and heal, etc, but these have a more specific purpose rather than a general testimony to God's presence and power. Although I do not have personal evidence, I believe that the appearance of such powers of the Spirit are much more prevalent in those countries where the gospel is still new and breaking new territory.

2) Our reasons:

If we assume that God does still use powers/gifts of the Spirit according to his will there is still the risk that we ourselves stifle its manifestation. People are very reluctant to speak in languages or prophesy or pray for healing in environments which are dubious or skeptical of their authenticity. Fear of ridicule, humiliation, or rejection overcome our willingness to explore these powers in public - which is where they are usually intended to be displayed. This is often the situaition in church congregations where the authorities do not support these gifts or provide a positive environment in which they may be manifest. This leads to the situation that Paul exhorts us to avoid:

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire, do not treat prophecies with contempt" 1 Thess 5:19,20

but he also immediately warns:

"Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." 1 Thess 5:21,22

Here we see the quandary that we are in. On one hand we should not inhibit such gifts, but on the other hand, they are clearly open to abuse. We need to tread carefully, but the easy option is sometimes to simply ignore or deny the phenomenon entirely....

Kaitsu

[Zoomer]

Most Lutherans that I have talked to believe in the "gifts of the spirit" including, but not limited to, speaking in tounges, prophecy, and healing, but have never experienced or witnessed these things. Just curious as to why or why not.

I honestly do not think that tongues or prophecy are as important in the current church, as they were in the time of Jesus. They could be again in the future, who knows but God? I do think that the gifts of the spirit have come to be misused and abuse by some denominations, who use them to prove that they are faithful, saved, filled with the Spirit etc.

[SPALATIN]

I honestly do not think that tongues or prophecy are as important in the current church, as they were in the time of Jesus. They could be again in the future, who knows but God? I do think that the gifts of the spirit have come to be misused and abuse by some denominations, who use them to prove that they are faithful, saved, filled with the Spirit etc.

And then again the question should be asked who do they feel they have to prove anything? Are they convincing themselves? Is it important that they convince others?

Seems to me the only person that is important is Christ and him crucified for our sins.

[Jim47]

And then again the question should be asked who do they feel they have to prove anything? Are they convincing themselves? Is it important that they convince others?

Seems to me the only person that is important is Christ and him crucified for our sins.


:amen: Way too much ephesis on spirituality these days and not enough of faith and trust in God and in Christ's blood to redeem us. We can put all our trust in God's Word, for He alone is faithful and true.

[sculpturegirl]

I honestly do not think that tongues or prophecy are as important in the current church, as they were in the time of Jesus. They could be again in the future, who knows but God? I do think that the gifts of the spirit have come to be misused and abuse by some denominations, who use them to prove that they are faithful, saved, filled with the Spirit etc.

I think that they are just as important, but people today tend to be less apt to recieve. I also think we could all use a little more faith-healing!

I whole-heartedly agree with you that these things have been used and abused. It is as the saying goes, "they sought the gifts and not the Giver." We first, ought to seek the Kingdom of God, Christ, His Son crucified, not all the good stuff He can do for us. While I do not think that these gifts ought to be ignored, niether do I think they need to be exaulted. They are tools, nothing more.

I try to keep a low profile. I was in conversation with a group of people who were OOOing and AHHHing over this one fellow's very prideful sharing of his healing and other spiritual things. "Look how spiritual I am!!" He seemed to say. I kept my mouth shut, which, as anyone who knows how loquacious I can be, was tremendously difficult!

[pastel]

I was reading somewhere, a Web site I believe, that was encouraging Pentecostals to "force" their members to speak in tongues, and that they wouldn't be "saved" if they didn't speak in tongues. This kinda reeks to me, and is more of a cult, than a Christian doctrine. Slap me silly if I'm wrong. ;)

I know all Pentecostals don't believe this way. However, some go too far, in my opinion.

[sculpturegirl]

I was reading somewhere, a Web site I believe, that was encouraging Pentecostals to "force" their members to speak in tongues, and that they wouldn't be "saved" if they didn't speak in tongues. This kinda reeks to me, and is more of a cult, than a Christian doctrine. Slap me silly if I'm wrong. ;)

I know all Pentecostals don't believe this way. However, some go too far, in my opinion.

Yes, there is a lot of that in the Pentecostal church. Basically, tounges is used as a sign that you are baptised in the Holy Spirit. I disagree with measuring people's spirituality.

I am not suggesting that the Lutheran church become a Pentecostal one!!

[KagomeShuko]

I was reading somewhere, a Web site I believe, that was encouraging Pentecostals to "force" their members to speak in tongues, and that they wouldn't be "saved" if they didn't speak in tongues. This kinda reeks to me, and is more of a cult, than a Christian doctrine. Slap me silly if I'm wrong. ;)

I know all Pentecostals don't believe this way. However, some go too far, in my opinion.
Yes, there are some pentacostal churches that go way too far! Some even have "tongue-speaking classes!"

There was one guy at my high school who insisted on preaching that God didn't hear your prayers unless you spoke in tongues! He said the devil stopped them from getting to God if you didn't speak in tongues! Yeah, and NO scriptural support, but he had all the followers :(

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Kaitsu]

And then again the question should be asked who do they feel they have to prove anything? Are they convincing themselves? Is it important that they convince others?

Seems to me the only person that is important is Christ and him crucified for our sins.

The important point behind gifts of the Spirit is that they are not initiated by the persons concerned, but by God acting within or through that person. One cannot kick-start, for example, prophesying, oneself!!

It is a sure sign of a wrong application if people "squeeze" these things out of their own minds and lips. Only God produces them for his own purposes. Humans are never anything more than the vehicle.

Therefore I agree that should not be motivated by a need to prove anything to themselves or to others. However, the quote also mentions " Is it important that they convince others? ", well, yes, that is one of the purposes defined by Paul to the Corinthians, and is valid when and where God feels it is necessary - but we do not determine that on God's behalf!

Kaitsu

[sculpturegirl]

I think that Kiatsu is right on the money here. It is about letting God, not proving our spiritual we are! Right on!

[SPALATIN]

The important point behind gifts of the Spirit is that they are not initiated by the persons concerned, but by God acting within or through that person. One cannot kick-start, for example, prophesying, oneself!!

It is a sure sign of a wrong application if people "squeeze" these things out of their own minds and lips. Only God produces them for his own purposes. Humans are never anything more than the vehicle.

Therefore I agree that should not be motivated by a need to prove anything to themselves or to others. However, the quote also mentions " Is it important that they convince others? ", well, yes, that is one of the purposes defined by Paul to the Corinthians, and is valid when and where God feels it is necessary - but we do not determine that on God's behalf!

Kaitsu

I am not denying that what you say here is correct because it is, but my question to Zoomer was regarding his statement about whether the gifts of Tongues and Prophecy are as necessary in today's church as they once were and maybe will be again in the future. Having been in a few "spirit filled" churches in my lifetime I always got the feeling that they were trying to put on this showing of these gifts to newcomers in order to persuade them to become a believer.

So my perspective is a bit skewed on this subject. Too often these churches seem wrapped up in the emotion and not enough on the mental aspects of spirituality.

[Kaitsu]

my question to Zoomer was regarding his statement about whether the gifts of Tongues and Prophecy are as necessary in today's church as they once were and maybe will be again in the future. Having been in a few "spirit filled" churches in my lifetime I always got the feeling that they were trying to put on this showing of these gifts to newcomers in order to persuade them to become a believer.



So my perspective is a bit skewed on this subject. Too often these churches seem wrapped up in the emotion and not enough on the mental aspects of spirituality.

I think the bible also suggests that such gifts are not so necessary nowadays as they were when the Kingdom of God was struggling to gain a foothold on earth - at least, not in the established Christian countries. We already have the bible and a church network and plenty of teachers and evangelists. However, that does not mean that God doesn't have any uses for these manifestations. The difficulty is knowing how to assess what we see and "holding on to what is good" (1 Thess 5:21).

I think you are correct that churches are often becoming too wrapped up with emotion - or rather, the churches are playing to an audience that is itself seeking emotional experience instead of communication with, and knowledge of, God. But this is not limited to gifts such as speaking in tongues, it also relates to anything that creates a spiritual "atmosphere" or "buzz"!

One trend I have seen recently in my own Lutheran church is the call to the altar for the blessing by the Spirit and people falling over. It has become so addictive that the church is packed with people, many of whom only arrive towards the end of the service for the "falling" bit and skip the rest of service that came beforehand. They push and shove each other in the aisle to jump the queue in order to get to the front as quick as possible. Once they are there, the priest lays his hand upon their forehead and "hey presto!" that's it, they are on the floor!

I am not prone to judging others but I remain very skeptical that there is anything related to the Spirit going on here - it seems more akin with phenomenon like mass hysteria.

Whilst I would agree that music and lighting etc might help create an environment in which it is easier to create spiritual meditation, I would be wary about letting this overtake the routine "plain vanilla-flavour" prayer in broad daylight in the midst of our daily routines!

Kaitsu

[Zoomer]

I think that they are just as important, but people today tend to be less apt to recieve. I also think we could all use a little more faith-healing!

I think if God is going to give the gift, that He's going to give if regardless if we are open to recieving or not. However, I think the modern gift of tongues differs from what was at the Pentecost. They were speaking in languages, that the onlookers could understand so that they could spread the Gospel. I liken it more to all of a sudden having the Holy Spirit come to you, and giving you the ablility to speak Japanese. At that time, people did not have access to learn as many different languages as today, especially the poor. Speaking in tongues enabled the apostles to spread the Gospel to those who may have not heard it otherwise. Today, we have so many people that can speak 3 or 4 different languages, and have the Bible in almost every language, that we do not need that gift. Speaking in tongues seems to have taken over as a way to show that we have the Spirit. Not a means of spreading the Gospel. I also believe that if they gifts of tongues were important to the church now, there would be a more even dispersement between all believers and it would be less of a denominational thing.

[SPALATIN]

I think the bible also suggests that such gifts are not so necessary nowadays as they were when the Kingdom of God was struggling to gain a foothold on earth - at least, not in the established Christian countries. We already have the bible and a church network and plenty of teachers and evangelists. However, that does not mean that God doesn't have any uses for these manifestations. The difficulty is knowing how to assess what we see and "holding on to what is good" (1 Thess 5:21).

I think you are correct that churches are often becoming too wrapped up with emotion - or rather, the churches are playing to an audience that is itself seeking emotional experience instead of communication with, and knowledge of, God. But this is not limited to gifts such as speaking in tongues, it also relates to anything that creates a spiritual "atmosphere" or "buzz"!

One trend I have seen recently in my own Lutheran church is the call to the altar for the blessing by the Spirit and people falling over. It has become so addictive that the church is packed with people, many of whom only arrive towards the end of the service for the "falling" bit and skip the rest of service that came beforehand. They push and shove each other in the aisle to jump the queue in order to get to the front as quick as possible. Once they are there, the priest lays his hand upon their forehead and "hey presto!" that's it, they are on the floor!

I am not prone to judging others but I remain very skeptical that there is anything related to the Spirit going on here - it seems more akin with phenomenon like mass hysteria.

Whilst I would agree that music and lighting etc might help create an environment in which it is easier to create spiritual meditation, I would be wary about letting this overtake the routine "plain vanilla-flavour" prayer in broad daylight in the midst of our daily routines!

Kaitsu

May I ask what synod your church belongs? I have not heard of this in the more conservative synods like LCMS, WELS or ELS, but have heard "Spirit" talk in the ELCA.

[Zoomer]

And then again the question should be asked who do they feel they have to prove anything? Are they convincing themselves? Is it important that they convince others?
I think it stems from the belief that one must be baptized both with water and the Holy Spirit. While I believe that I received both during "water" baptism, many denominations believe in two seperate baptism or a lying on the hands. I think that in many churches there is pressure put onto the believer to have to speak in tongues, as an outward sign on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In fact this article goes as far as saying that if someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit, they WILL speak in tongues immediately. I think there is alot of pressure involved, in certain denominations, that if one is a true believer then they will speak in tongues. That to me is not Biblical. A gift is just that--- no matter how badly we want a gift, it does not mean will get it. It's all up the giver.
http://www.upci.org/doctrine/tongues.asp

[filosofer]

I think it stems from the belief that one must be baptized both with water and the Holy Spirit. While I believe that I received both during "water" baptism, many denominations believe in two seperate baptism or a lying on the hands.

Confusion on John 3:3-6 and the preposition/definite article combination.

I think that in many churches there is pressure put onto the believer to have to speak in tongues, as an outward sign on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Sort of like how they describe Baptism - "outward sign of an inward work" ("symbolic", of course, for Baptism, but not the Holy Spirit!).

In fact this article goes as far as saying that if someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit, they WILL speak in tongues immediately. I think there is alot of pressure involved, in certain denominations, that if one is a true believer then they will speak in tongues. That to me is not Biblical. A gift is just that--- no matter how badly we want a gift, it does not mean will get it. It's all up the giver.
http://www.upci.org/

Of course, UPC is not a Trinitarian denomination, so they start out int he whole.

[SPALATIN]

Confusion on John 3:3-6 and the preposition/definite article combination.



Sort of like how they describe Baptism - "outward sign of an inward work" ("symbolic", of course, for Baptism, but not the Holy Spirit!).



Of course, UPC is not a Trinitarian denomination, so they start out int he whole.


Or do you mean the "HOLE" ??

[sculpturegirl]

Do you think that "tounges" as in an angelic/ heavenly language actually exists as a gift from God?

[SPALATIN]

Do you think that "tounges" as in an angelic/ heavenly language actually exists as a gift from God?

I think that the Charismatics make it out to be that way, but tongues were really given as a way to reach those who didn't speak the native tongues and needed to hear what Christ did for them. This is probably why Paul put them as the lesser gift of all the Spiritual gifts of the Spirit.

[filosofer]

I think that the Bible isn't as clear as we would like it to be on this point. Obviously Acts 2 supports the existing human languages, 1 Cor. 12 and 14 leans toward the angelic/heavenly.

In either case, note that it is the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23 and 1 Cor. 13) that controls the gifts of the Spirit. And that is exactly where many on both sides of the issue forget/ignore, etc.

[Kaitsu]

May I ask what synod your church belongs? I have not heard of this in the more conservative synods like LCMS, WELS or ELS, but have heard "Spirit" talk in the ELCA.

I have not heard that our church is a member of any synod, to be honest I am not even sure what a synod is. The Ev. Lut. church of Finland is the national church and the most prominent church throughout the country. Would it belong to some form of international synod?

Kaitsu

[SPALATIN]

I have not heard that our church is a member of any synod, to be honest I am not even sure what a synod is. The Ev. Lut. church of Finland is the national church and the most prominent church throughout the country. Would it belong to some form of international synod?

Kaitsu

My fault. I made an assumption that you were from the US, but looking at your flag I see that you are not. I apologize. Being that it is a state run church do you find that the Government sticks it's nose in church matters often?

[ByzantineDixie]

I think if God is going to give the gift, that He's going to give if regardless if we are open to recieving or not.

But does God overpower our wills or give us the grace to enable us to exercise these gifts? Do you think God forces us to use the gifts we have been given?

Peace

Rose

[pastel]

I have been reminded of the story of my grandmother's grandfather, who was a called minister in the 1800's (sorry, don't have the exact dates of his existence. ) .... anyway, it was mid- 1800s I'm sure. He was called by the Spirit to be a minister in those days, and he could not read. He probably prayed about this, as how could he preach the Word, if he couldn't read it? It came about shortly a miracle, and he could read the Bible. That has to be similar to speaking in tongues... the gift of the Spirit.

[TheDag]

Paul tells us that the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the Church and for the building up of one another. I would be interested in how your "speaking in tongues" in private is building up the Church as the Spirit intends that gift to be used.



I believe if you read 1 corinthians 14 Paul does mention that the gift of tongues edifies the individual unless there is someone to interpret. He doesn't seem to indicate that there is anything wrong with being edified yourself but just says there is a time and a place.

[TheDag]

I think the bible also suggests that such gifts are not so necessary nowadays as they were when the Kingdom of God was struggling to gain a foothold on earth - at least, not in the established Christian countries. We already have the bible and a church network and plenty of teachers and evangelists. However, that does not mean that God doesn't have any uses for these manifestations. The difficulty is knowing how to assess what we see and "holding on to what is good" (1 Thess 5:21).

In the early days the church spread rapidly. Documents written by Roman rulers actually mention that the chrstians were using stealth to spread their message. The form of this stealth was love in action! The christians were demonstrating real love in action by caring for everyone including others outcasts that people saw what they had was real and made a difference to their lives. The faith that makes a noticable impact on peoples lives will always be appealing. Sadly we see too many people who claim to be christian yet it has no impact on their life and non believers see this and think there is no difference between them and me other than they go to church. Especially when christian business owners don't operate by christian principles this can also have a big negative impact on the gospel. Note that I am not saying all christian business owners don't operate according to christian principals just some.

One trend I have seen recently in my own Lutheran church is the call to the altar for the blessing by the Spirit and people falling over. It has become so addictive that the church is packed with people, many of whom only arrive towards the end of the service for the "falling" bit and skip the rest of service that came beforehand. They push and shove each other in the aisle to jump the queue in order to get to the front as quick as possible. Once they are there, the priest lays his hand upon their forehead and "hey presto!" that's it, they are on the floor!

I am not prone to judging others but I remain very skeptical that there is anything related to the Spirit going on here - it seems more akin with phenomenon like mass hysteria.

Whilst I would agree that music and lighting etc might help create an environment in which it is easier to create spiritual meditation, I would be wary about letting this overtake the routine "plain vanilla-flavour" prayer in broad daylight in the midst of our daily routines!

Kaitsu
I too was very skeptical about the falling to the floor thing untill one day I was at a charismatic church and without going to the front I fell to the floor. I could tell that was from God and I knew I wasn't putting on an act like I had always said people were when that happened.

As for orderly worship mentioned by several people earlier. I saw one church have a time in their service for people to worship however they felt they should. After a time they would then move back into a time of more structured worship. We do need to be careful that we don't structure our worship so much that there isn't room for the spirit to do anything. I have also been to pentecostal churches where there has been interpreting of tongues. Generally if I visit a church and I'm not sure whats happening or if its of God rather than being disgusted or getting upset or just joining in I will just pray to & praise God quietly. I make sure I don't rule out that it could be the spirit moving unless I'm sure.

[Kaitsu]

My fault. I made an assumption that you were from the US, but looking at your flag I see that you are not. I apologize. Being that it is a state run church do you find that the Government sticks it's nose in church matters often?

No, not especially. Naturally, the government and the church authorities work closely together, particularly in the area of developing and passing church laws. But I have not noticed any adverse pressure being brought by the goverment upon the church, for example, to lean in any particular direction or adopt a particular policy.

The main difference is that Ev. Lut church members (about 80% of the population, I think) pay a church tax that is collected by the government along with income tax. The proceeds are then passed to the church authorities for distribution amongst the various parishes throughout the country. I don't think this system operates in many other places.

Kaitsu

[Kaitsu]

Hi The Dag

Good post! Thanks very much.


In the early days the church spread rapidly. Documents written by Roman rulers actually mention that the chrstians were using stealth to spread their message. The form of this stealth was love in action! The christians were demonstrating real love in action by caring for everyone including others outcasts that people saw what they had was real and made a difference to their lives. The faith that makes a noticable impact on peoples lives will always be appealing. Sadly we see too many people who claim to be christian yet it has no impact on their life and non believers see this and think there is no difference between them and me other than they go to church. Especially when christian business owners don't operate by christian principles this can also have a big negative impact on the gospel. Note that I am not saying all christian business owners don't operate according to christian principals just some.

At least according to the bible the early church also exhibited the gifts of the Spirit in the form of tongues, prophesying, healing and so on - but I fully agree with you that love was the key thing - as Paul himself taught:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." 1 Cor 13:1-3

and

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Cor 13:13

I also share your dismay at the inability to recognise Christians through their actions and attitudes towards others. The bible speaks much of the fact that the proof of our faith is in the deeds that inevitably exude from it. If there is no evidence of good works through love then there are grounds to question the authenticity of our faith. Love cannot be a passive emotion, it is always in the active mode. As James says:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."James 2:14-17

I too was very skeptical about the falling to the floor thing untill one day I was at a charismatic church and without going to the front I fell to the floor. I could tell that was from God and I knew I wasn't putting on an act like I had always said people were when that happened.

As for orderly worship mentioned by several people earlier. I saw one church have a time in their service for people to worship however they felt they should. After a time they would then move back into a time of more structured worship. We do need to be careful that we don't structure our worship so much that there isn't room for the spirit to do anything. I have also been to pentecostal churches where there has been interpreting of tongues. Generally if I visit a church and I'm not sure whats happening or if its of God rather than being disgusted or getting upset or just joining in I will just pray to & praise God quietly. I make sure I don't rule out that it could be the spirit moving unless I'm sure.

I also do not dismiss this out of hand. However, I have found nothing in the bible that speaks of such action by the Spirit, nor do I understand the purpose of it. What did you experience through this falling and how did it affect you?

As I wrote before (I'm not sure where anymore) it seems we are caught between two of Paul's exhortations:

First:
"Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt." 1 Thess 5:19,20

and second:
"Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Thess 5:21

I generally try to weigh up anything I witness related to gifts of the Spirit against the bible, and accept what seems to be in line with the teaching there, however, this falling over remains under a question mark for me still.

Thanks again for the stimulating and inspiring reply :)

Kaitsu