Nazerene Doctrine and Beliefs?

[mafiedler]

Can anyone help me on this?

[HeatherJay]

Hi there. :) Here's a link to our Articles of Faith : http://www.nazarene.org/gensec/we_believe.html


We believe in one God who has expressed himself in personal ways. We know God’s personality as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We believe the Bible communicates God’s saving message and is our reliable authority in all matters related to faith and Christian living.

We believe that all humankind struggles with a downward pull.

We believe that unless we experience God’s help and salvation through a faith commitment to Jesus Christ, our future is one of eternal separation from God and all that is good.

We believe the love and grace of God is extended to every person in the provision Jesus Christ made in his death and resurrection. By turning from our own selfishness and trusting Jesus Christ, we experience a new life, being freed from the old patterns of self–destructive acts called sin.

We believe our new life in Jesus Christ is the gateway to transformation. Following our moment of faith in Jesus, we believe there is another moment in which we present our life completely to Christ in order to live under his authority and to experience his transforming power.

We believe that Christian experience is more than a change of mind. It is accompanied by assurance that is grounded in both the Scriptures as well as the inner witness of God’s Spirit.

We believe that all who live for Jesus Christ have an eternal future. Our belief in such a future includes both the fulfillment of God’s creative purpose as well as the accountability of all persons endowed with the power of choice.

Hope that helps you out. :wave:

[desert_island_1]

I believe we also have a high value for children compared to some other denominations.

[brotherjim]

X. Entire Sanctification

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as "Christian perfection," "perfect love," "heart purity," "the baptism with the Holy Spirit," "the fullness of the blessing," and "Christian holiness."

14. We believe that there is a marked distinction between a pure heart and a mature character. The former is obtained in an instant, the result of entire sanctification; the latter is the result of growth in grace.

We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the impulse to grow in grace. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor one’s witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost.

(Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Malachi 3:2-3; Matthew 3:11-12; Luke 3:16-17; John 7:37-39; 14:15-23; 17:6-20; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 15:8-9; Romans 6:11-13, 19; 8:1-4, 8-14; 12:1-2; 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1; Galatians 2:20; 5:16-25; Ephesians 3:14-21; 5:17-18, 25-27; Philippians 3:10-15; Colossians 3:1-17; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 4:9-11; 10:10-17; 12:1-2; 13:12; 1 John 1:7, 9)

("Christian perfection," "perfect love": Deuteronomy 30:6; Matthew 5:43-48; 22:37-40; Romans 12:9-21; 13:8-10; 1 Corinthians 13; Philippians 3:10-15; Hebrews 6:1; 1 John 4:17-18

"Heart purity": Matthew 5:8; Acts 15:8-9; 1 Peter 1:22; 1 John 3:3

"Baptism with the Holy Spirit": Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Malachi 3:2-3; Matthew 3:11-12; Luke 3:16-17; Acts 1:5; 2:1-4; 15:8-9

"Fullness of the blessing": Romans 15:29

"Christian holiness": Matthew 5:1-7:29; John 15:1-11; Romans 12:1-15:3; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 4:17-5:20; Philippians 1:9-11; 3:12-15; Colossians 2:20-3:17; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:7-8; 5:23; 2 Timothy 2:19-22; Hebrews 10:19-25; 12:14; 13:20-21; 1 Peter 1:15-16; 2 Peter 1:1-11; 3:18; Jude 20-21)

[WesleyJohn]

.

[brotherjim]

Oops! I forgot to tag a message to what I pulled up from the site "Heather Jay" referred to. She gave an overview, and yet I could not find within it any reference to Articlle X, Items 13 and 14 that I posted, from the Nazarene doctrines, and I wondered why--it seemed as though intended by the Nazarenes a major doctrine.

bj

[HeatherJay]

Oops! I forgot to tag a message to what I pulled up from the site "Heather Jay" referred to. She gave an overview, and yet I could not find within it any reference to Articlle X, Items 13 and 14 that I posted, from the Nazarene doctrines, and I wondered why--it seemed as though intended by the Nazarenes a major doctrine.

bj
http://www.nazarene.org/welcome/beliefs/index.html

There's the link to what I typed out in my other post. Those are our 8 Agreed Upon Statements of Faith that are common to Christians worldwide.

But, it's probably in this statement where we tie in our belief in entire sanctification :

We believe our new life in Jesus Christ is the gateway to transformation. Following our moment of faith in Jesus, we believe there is another moment in which we present our life completely to Christ in order to live under his authority and to experience his transforming power.


:) I didn't mean to confuse anyone. Sorry about that. :wave:

[brotherjim]

But, it's probably in this statement where we tie in our belief in entire sanctification : I didn't mean to confuse anyone. Sorry about that.
Thanks, HJay.

Likely I was the only one who missed that (adult ADD, though my son claims I'm just inattentive {-_-}).

Perhaps it could've been two paragraphs instead of one??

Anywhoo, it is my most favored part about Wesley, and in fact I know little of him and his teachings apart from his doctriine of entire sanctification. While I do not agree with him 100%--. (I guess that's why there are Methodists AND Wesleyans AND Nazarenes, huh?)

I refer to this "subsequent blessing" in many of my writings with others, and often refer them to the John Wesley Heritage Library CD for personal testimonies of those who have experienced this in bygone centuries, but is it me or is there a stark absence of contemporary testimonies from present-day Wesleyans, Naz., etc.?? I've never met one in my 23+ years in the Lord--and I meet A LOT of Christians from many denominations--who has shared their personal testimony with me of when they rec'd. a second blessing.

(And I'm sincere, being only partially and minorly [wd?--doubt it] Socratic.)

Self-conscious in PA, jim

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

Perhaps my last post was too indirect.

Does anyone at all, of the Nazarene/Wesleyan/Methodist persuasion, have a personal testimony as to the day when you received the "Wesleyan" experience of entire sanctification? (After all, within Evang./charis. Christendom it is the one distinguishing feature of these denominations, is it not?)

Pray tell, please. Thanks, jim

[HeatherJay]

Whoever,

Perhaps my last post was too indirect.

Does anyone at all, of the Nazarene/Wesleyan/Methodist persuasion, have a personal testimony as to the day when you received the "Wesleyan" experience of entire sanctification? (After all, within Evang./charis. Christendom it is the one distinguishing feature of these denominations, is it not?)

Pray tell, please. Thanks, jim
Sorry Brother Jim,

I didn't mean to seem to be ignoring your question. I just wasn't quite sure how to answer it from a personal standpoint. I guess I would say that I (personally) have not been entirely sanctified. I feel that all I can do is to try to walk closer with God tomorrow than I did today. I feel it's sort of an ongoing thing, not something that the Holy Spirit just zaps you with when you walk up to the altar. There is never a point, I don't think, where a person can say, "Yes, I've been entirely sanctified," because as soon as you've stated it, you're guilty of being prideful (and therefore no longer entirely sanctified). It's complex, and hard to explain, I guess. I almost feel as though describing my own personal sanctification experience would be prideful (not that I don't still have a long way to go, but...). Maybe someone else could better answer your question as far as a profound testimony. Again, sorry this is such a non-answer to your question, but I didn't want you to feel you were being ignored. :hug:

[brotherjim]

Hi Heather.
Sorry Brother Jim, I didn't mean to seem to be ignoring your question. . . .
There's no need for you to apologize. My query was to any and all who pass by on the Wes/Meth/Naz "channel" here. I was looking for perhaps just one person, anyone--.
. . . I feel that all I can do is to try to walk closer with God tomorrow than I did today. I feel it's [entire sanctification] sort of an ongoing thing, not something that the Holy Spirit just zaps you with when you walk up to the altar. There is never a point, I don't think, where a person can say, "Yes, I've been entirely sanctified," . . .
So then, Heather, you disagree with your own church's doctrine?!? To wit:
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness. (Nazarene Doctrine, Art. X, Sect. 13-14.)

But, no, I wasn't feeling ignored, just wanting to confirm my "suspicions." I have been looking for years to personally meet just one Meth/Naz/Wes who has experienced what those denominations are supposed to stand for--just one.

I just don't get it. Apart from instantaneous entire sanctification, Nazarenes and Methodists and Wesleyans, from what I can determine, are no different than any other Evangelical, cond. sec. denomination. The entire sanctification, instantly wrought, IS what Wesley was all about, insofar as how he differed from any other of his day, correct?!?

Dazed, bro. jim

[HeatherJay]

Hi Heather.

There's no need for you to apologize. My query was to any and all who pass by on the Wes/Meth/Naz "channel" here. I was looking for perhaps just one person, anyone--.

So then, Heather, you disagree with your own church's doctrine?!? To wit:
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness. (Nazarene Doctrine, Art. X, Sect. 13-14.)

But, no, I wasn't feeling ignored, just wanting to confirm my "suspicions." I have been looking for years to personally meet just one Meth/Naz/Wes who has experienced what those denominations are supposed to stand for--just one.

I just don't get it. Apart from instantaneous entire sanctification, Nazarenes and Methodists and Wesleyans, from what I can determine, are no different than any other Evangelical, cond. sec. denomination. The entire sanctification, instantly wrought, IS what Wesley was all about, insofar as how he differed from any other of his day, correct?!?

Dazed, bro. jim




LOL, well, I'm not really sure how many church goers (no matter what denomination) agree 100% with their particular church's doctrine. ;)

That said, perhaps I should apologize because I was probably using the wrong wording above. For that, I do hope you'll forgive me. But, yes, I do believe that entire sanctification is instantaneous...however, it's not something that happens upon walking up to the altar and accepting Christ or receiving the Holy Spirit or that sort of thing. It's something completely different, and something that (I feel) happens after a lifelong journey towards this Christian Perfection that God intends for us.

And, if you'll notice in your own quote of the Articles of Faith, it says that instantaneous entire sanctification is preceded by entire consecration. This is where I feel I misworded my previous post. Entire consecration is the part of sanctification that might take a lifetime to fulfill. This is the part of sanctification where we all just try to be a better Christian tomorrow than we were today. This is the part where taking pride in your own 'sanctification' can present a big fat problem.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say (in a really confusing way...sorry bout that) is that we don't make the call when exactly that instant is when we've become entirely sanctified. There's no checklist for getting there. It's a gift of grace.

So, yes, I'll stand by my original statement, lol, no, I don't feel that I'm entirely sanctified. I still have so, so, so many ways in which I can improve in my Christian walk.

And again, I'm so sorry for the confusion. Sometimes (late at night ;) ) I just don't express myself as well as I would like to.

:wave:

[brotherjim]

Whoever can receive it as Truth:

What Wesleyans term "entire sanctification," and what I have personally come to prefer calling "receiving the fullness of the Fruit of the Spirit of God's Love," is an experience given by God to someone at some time after they've been born-again, and is received more or less in an instant, by Faith--the methodology being the same as the New Birth.

The required prerequisite to receiving that Grace of so-called entire sanctification, is what some "Wesleyans" (Nazarenes, etc.) call entire consecration. This act of consecration should take no more than a few weeks or months (any time beyond that is most likely a "fig leaf").

Entire consecration is perhaps best done by the Christian first extracting all passages of the Holy Scriptures that deal with walking in God's Love (1 Cor. Chap 13; 1 Cor. 8:1 to 11:34; Rom. 13:8 to 15:3a; etc.), and prayerfully, in Jesus' Name and by Faith, asking the Heavenly Father to allow those Scriptures to reflect against our own vain attempts at walking in Love, thereby opening our eyes to the Light of the Truth that we have not been doing so, not to all, especially not insofar as it's to include all enemies and the unlovable--as is commanded and required for eternal Life.

Then look to God by Faith, to grant you the godly sorrow and remorse for, then the repentance and deliverance from, your failure to Love as commanded and required, along with the same acts of Grace for whatever enemies to God's Love may hide on your heart unknown to you, and then expect the fullness of God's Love to be given as a holy replacement.

God's Love can then, by Grace alone, be expected to bring every facet of your being into alignment with the Word and, eventually, perfect you in that Love.

Besides, it's the only Way--contrary to popular opinion.

If on the other hand, we resign ourselves to self-justification of our present, but actually deficient, lives, we have altogether gone out of the Way, having hardened our hearts to the Holy Ghost's attempts, having buried our heads in the sand, us perhaps becoming a merely good and nice person, but void of the zoe Life and [/i]dunamis[/i] Power of God.

Please take the above to the Lord, in the Name of Jesus, asking Him to do whatever it takes to confirm it in you if true (or erase it from you if false). If you saw today's headlines of potential peace in Jerusalem, you may realize such is likely an end-time sign.

"Peace and GRACE BE MULTIPLIED onto you," bro. jim

[Crono]

A good summary of the Nazarene view of entire sanctification can be found in the book A Layman's Guide to Sanctification by H. Ray Dunning. I don't think that it answers every questions about sanctification, but it does provide teh general idea. Entire sanctification is a somewhat complicated issue, and even within the Church of the Nazarene and other Wesleyan denominations, there are some variations about the details of this doctrine. Something that the Church of the Nazarene is very clear about is that entire sanctification is an act of God that occurs in a Christian's life subsequent to salvation, but it does not necessarily have to wait until we reach heaven and are glorified. Entire sanctification can happen to us here on earth in our current lives.

What the Nazarene Church is not necessarily clear about is what exactly it means to be entirely sanctified or what must happen for entire sanctification to occur. I'm leaving that for others to attend to.

[brotherjim]

A. . . Entire sanctification is a somewhat complicated issue, . . .

Whoever,

Entire sanctification is not a "complicated issue." (Man makes it that way so as to skirt the issue.)

Let us remember to whom the Gospel was given: a mostly simpleminded, mostly agrarian, mostly uneducated people. While some issues of God are complicated, it behooved God to make that which enables an individual to be eternally saved, simple. God would never make His potential children dependant upon the understandings of intellectuals and the unraveling of complicated aspects.

The New Birth, for example, while no clear evidence can be found in the Holy Scriptures as to it being an instantaneously given event on or after the age a person is old enough to understand and choose it, is known as fact by the Evangelical and charismatic because it happened to them, and because the Holy Word cannot disprove it, and because "His Spirit [bore] witness with [their] spirit, that [they] are the children of God." (Hence three "witnesses.")

Likewise, the second needed Grace (or perhaps third if you are a charismatic believer) also has multiple "witnesses" to its factuality. One of these is that the recipient will more or less immediately realize that they unconditionally Love every human being on this planet, and all equally--even the Saddam Hussein's of the world. So, conversely, if you cannot give personal testimony of the day and place when you instantly received such a boundless Love--just as you hopefully can similarly give as to your New Birth, then you can know that you have not yet received it, and need to. Yes, "need to": it is not an option (1 John 2:3-5; 1 John 4:16-18; Romans 13:8, 10; Rev. 22:14; Luke 10:25-28; etc., etc.).

Eternal Life is only promised in the Holy Word, [i]God's Standard, to those who are found living obedient to the NT's Three Commandments of Love and Faith, which is only ever possible if Grace/God has perfected His Love in them, in turn only ever possible when begun by the Christian first receiving the fullness of the Fruit of the Spirit of God's Love (AKA entire sanct.). Any other so-called "doctrine" of salvation is proven wrong by the preponderance of Scriptures, such as those ref. above, found to testify against it, as well as by the witness of the experiences of those who have so received.

(Many personal testimonies of those who have instantly received the fullness of God's Love can be read on the John Wesley Heritage Library CD, avail. by purchase in various productions, one of which is avail. for free on-line viewing at www.EnterHisRest.org (http://www.EnterHisRest.org) [click on the "Testimonies" icon from the homepage, then scroll down to the "Heritage Testimonies"--careful, though, as some of the contemporary stuff added to the CD on that site is questionable, so sift, sift and sift, as usual].)

No, entire sanctification is not at all complicated: you are either totally committed to Loving God with all facets of your being, and Loving all people as Christ Loved us (i.e., having truly made Jesus/the Word your literal Lord and Master--all by Grace, of course; all glory to God), or you are not. But such a true and complete and apostolic Gospel would never fill the pews, hence why--.

"Narrow is the Way, and [sorrowfully] few there be," bro. jim



P.S. But there's Good News: He offers more Grace, "the manifold Graces of God."

[brotherjim]

COG boy,

Concerning the Nazarenes, I bumped this up for you (it had just slipped on to Page 2). See Post #4 where I copied and pasted from the Nazarene website, Article 10 of their doctrine. One must pay very close attention to its wording.

I, too, was quite interested in all of this among the various "Wesleyan" denomonations, and I'm still exploring the Wesleyan doctrine. Also, perhaps check out the "Reformed Methodist" site--I found some interesting things there not common to mainstream Methodism. ("Primitive Methodists," too, are a distinct bunch, but their website is woefully noncommittal on doctrine in what I could find.) But Methodism has had a long time to play the whisper-down-the-alley "game" (as really have also the others).

But thank you, too, as I had no idea that COG came from Wesleyanism. May I inquire as to your denominations website? (When I last attempted this, I was very confused by all the different Church of God derivitives.)

But I hope others will respond with the latter part of your question, as to how this is played out/taught in their individual churches.

(I'll post some Wes. doctrine stuff when I get opportunity.)

brother jim

[mikeserves]

Whoever,

Perhaps my last post was too indirect.

Does anyone at all, of the Nazarene/Wesleyan/Methodist persuasion, have a personal testimony as to the day when you received the "Wesleyan" experience of entire sanctification? (After all, within Evang./charis. Christendom it is the one distinguishing feature of these denominations, is it not?)

Pray tell, please. Thanks, jim

Jim,

It is interesting that you wonder about the experience of entire sanctification as expressed by individuals.

My first thought would be that in the past 30 years there has been a wide variety of definitions for that specific experience. I personally have misunderstood it as well as talked with many who misunderstood it as well (if you have any doubts check Mr Hart from Colorado who was running for president 12 plus years ago). Yet, just like many things in the bible when we go to the source and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance on this or any issue we can be assured to find the truth.

In my opinion a lack of solid teaching in the last 30 years has created a fear which in turns denies an accurate understanding.

Many of the NT writings were directed at the faulty Gnostic ideology. Just as early Christians wrote specificly to address misunderstanding so should we teach properly about what entire sanctification is. It, for me, is when we realize our need for total submission to God's direction and control in our lives. We begin to "consecrate" ourselves to Him and His will for us. When we are faced with that moment when we can say I give You all I am for Your service that is "the moment" of entire sanctification. Yet, it cannot and should not stop there. We daily must surrender all of who we are to Him and He will continually show us areas to commit to Him. As much as it is a one time event not unlike salvation, btw they can happen at the same time but often there is a lack of knowledge to precipitate that event, we are called to continually submit and live a life that reflects Him above all else.

For me I had been in Bible College for some time when a Missionary shared a 4 hour block with us. That night I realized my family stood between me and total submission to His will. I went to God in prayer and asked Him to search me and show me anything that was before Him and His plan for me. As He showed me each one I surrendered them to His direction therefore serving Him and His will for me above everything else.

As far as do people still experience entire sanctification, yes. I personally know many people and their stories. Often the word has been changed to total commitment or allowing God to have all of me. So a possible reason for not hearing about someones sanctification story might be verbage. There are still many who seek a total surrender to God upon conviction of the Holy Spirit.

[brotherjim]

Jim, It is interesting that you wonder about the experience of entire sanctification as expressed by individuals.
Greetings, Mike.

Actually,sincerely, I did not think it ay all an extraordinary quest. When we read in the Book of Acts how the Apostles shared the Gospel in those early years before they became theologians, we find it was merely recounting their own personal spiritual journey. And since, as I stated before, the one main element that distinguishes Wesley from any other Reformationist, is his doctrine of entire sanctification, no? So putting the two together, I find it not just a little starange that such testimonies are lacking among "Wesleyan" people.

As for myself, I came upon such truth from a sovereign-of-the-Lord journey, and was quite astounded when I "accidentally" found out just a couple years ago that what I had been brought by the Spirit to believe, was already existing in the church via Wesley. I had always known of Nazarenes and Wesleyans and Methodists, of course, and even several personally through the years, but never once did anyone mention entire sanctification. I had no idea that this was part of their church's doctrine. (There was until a few years ago, even a Wesleyan college in my hometown.)

. . . just like many things in the bible when we go to the source and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance on this or any issue we can be assured to find the truth.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you here, and staunchly so, Mike. Truly sorry to say it that way. The impurities remaining in the heart of a believer, prevents them from coming to know certain Truths. If, for example, we harbor an idol of the heart that is an enemy to the unconditionality of God's Love, then there's no way we can be led of God to understand and accept any true doctrine of that Love, unless we first are exposed to our idol, given repentance and deliverance,--. Well, I believe I went through this above.

In fact, while I am more "Wesleyan" than anyone I have ever met, I do digress from the formally stated doctrine of entire sanc., in that I most assuredly do not believe that it includes a complete cleansing of all heart idols. Such is not only not possible, it disagrees with some very foundational Truths regarding the Kingdom of God. I will copy and paste from another forum on this, where I address it in detail.

In my opinion a lack of solid teaching in the last 30 years has created a fear which in turns denies an accurate understanding.
Speaking for myself, I do not see this, either, as extraordinary. The entire Evangelical and charismatic church has become altogether virtually impotent, sorrowed to say, so why should this "Wesleyan" corner of it be any different from any other denominational group.

In 1 John 2:15 we find that the Love of the Father, that for which entire sanctification is given so as to perfect, cannot coexist in the same soul as does the love of the world. It's really that simple.

. . . Yet, it cannot and should not stop there. We daily must surrender all of who we are to Him and He will continually show us areas to commit to Him.
Well, I am most pleased to read you on this, Mike. As I elluded to elsewhere, if we read the Nazaren Article X that I posted, for example, when carefully done we find the "disclaimer similar to yours, that this subsequently-sanctifying Grace must be maintained. While this is sound advice:

In fact, I again disagree with Wesley on it being the second and last main mountaintop experience in someone's life--putting it loosely.

There is a very basic Christian principle given hint of in John 2:23-25. God would NEVER give man, in this dispensation, something to hang is hat on, some laurel wreath upon which the believer can rest--even if such rest includes maintaining the second blessing, which maintenance is often a lark (Jere. 17:9).

The Mount of Transfiguration encounter was allowed so as to show us all that man's natural inclination is to take his one--or two--face to face encounter with God, and from that experience build a memorial, worshipping it the rest of his days instead of the living God. It is a fearful thing to come face to face with God in the New Birth or entire sanctification process, even though short-lived in its pain of revelation of our sin, so we as human beings would rather avoid additional unpleasantries, preferring to keep the things of God at arm's length rather than allow them expose our heart's idols again and again--which needs to happen.

It takes a good half dozen or more well-spaced mountaintop experiences in a Christian's life, before they will find the Love of the Father perfected in them--and that, again digressing from Wesley, what I find ample and clear evidence in the Word to state is a requirement for eternal Life (1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 4:16-18, Luke 10:25-28, Rev. 22:14, etc.).

Thank you, Mike, for reading and considering the words of my posts. At the very great risk of seeming arrogant--the Lord knowing I am not, for He delivered me of such and maintains me by further Grace (all glory to Grace and God alone), this is the only source I know of in the entire world, for what I claim is the only true, apostolic, complete Gospel of Christ Jesus--and I've been posting it for more than 2 years on more than a dozen Christian forums, and after literally thousands of responses not so much as one person has been able to prove it wrong by the written Word (actually, it is the only Gospel that is entirely compatible with the whole counsel of the Holy Scriptures, all others forcing their square pegs into holes made by God only round--perhaps also kindly see my thread "Theology" on the Theology section, Soteriology sub-section.)

"Grace and Peace be multiplied onto you," Mike, brotherjim

[brotherjim]

. . . In fact, while I am more "Wesleyan" than anyone I have ever met, I do digress from the formally stated doctrine of entire sanc., in that I most assuredly do not believe that it includes a complete cleansing of all heart idols. Such is not only not possible, it disagrees with some very foundational Truths regarding the Kingdom of God. I will copy and paste from another forum on this, where I address it in detail. . . .brotherjim
As promised (sorry for the delay, Mike and whoever):

Whoever,

It is a common fallacy to believe the spiritual heart is transformed completely at the time of the New Birth. While such is started, and some of God's Laws are written upon it at that starting point, it would be too drastic a transformation to do this all at once. Not only would everyone around us hate us for what we would become, we would likely not be able to stand our own selves.

Additionally, God is not an all-intrusive God. In order that He write His Truths upon our heart, it requires that He concurrently or precedingly remove from the heart those idols/sins/impurities which are enemies to the things God wills to write. But in order we be delivered from these enemies of the Cross, we must be given repentance for them so that we're willing to receive what God wants to give as holy substitutions. But in order to receive repentance, we need revelations as to what evil is within us, for we live our life self-justifying and hiding our hearts' sins, not making them available to God and the exposure of His Light. So since our sins are too great and too voluminous and too thoroughly sinful, God cannot reveal them all at one time: we would likely commit suicide before we had a chance to be delivered; if we were allowed to see all our sin at one time, the way God sees them, i.e., through His eyes, it would just be too grotesque and self-condemning to look upon and deal with. So God does it one or two sins at a time.

Finally, and perhaps paramount, is the fact that once we are delivered from some idol/sin/impurity of the heart, if we do not keep our heart diligently guarded afterward, not only will our adversary return that heart idol to us, but it will be many times harder to be delivered from it the second time. Since we can have at best, only head knowledge about this--and few have even that (Jere. 17:9), this is why God does not deliver us from all heart impurities at once, because we would not be vigilent enough to stay on guard against all those evils, and we would allow many back in only to find them more deeply rooted and us more evil than as what we began, as a result.

Then, too, there's that forgetful man of James 1. If God were to completely cleanse our hearrt in one fell swoop, oh how quickly we would soon "forget what manner of man/sinner [we] were" prior; we would soon forget it is Grace and not the ability of man that allows us to walk Christlike; the devil would fill us witth the same pride and resultant arrogance which befell him; and, since pride goes before destruction, it would soon blow us out of the water.

brotherjim
edited, personal contact information is not allowed in posts
---------------------------


A wise Puritan writer once wrote, "No matter how much my heart is further purified by the Graces of God, I still always question its motives (para.)."

Jere 17:9 (para. & ampl.): "The heart is desperately wicked, and more than any other facet of it, it is deceitful to our own understanding of what hides within it."

[earnestseeker]

This my first post.
In the various posts on sanctification I notice a lot of uncertainty. This is understandable since the best writing on the topic is either quite obscure, or quite old. Also the topic is the one that is most easily beset with confusion in the gospel -and as you know that is saying quite a lot!
The reason for this is clear. Until you are sanctified the mere mention of the topic can be threatening to the unconsecrated treasures of your heart. The hunger for or avoidance of the topic is often visceral in nature since it is a survival issue. The "old man" just does not want to be put to death in Him! :help:
Another reason for confusion is the "meniscus" that divides the sanctified soul from other believers. Just as there is spiritual line between believers and the lost that cannot be really crossed except by the lost embracing saving faith, there is a spiritual line between those hid blameless in His bosom and those who would just like to be.
The only way to truly cross this line, is by another application of saving faith to complete the task of redemption in sanctification.
It is only then that your joy can be complete. Until then there is always something that will crop up out of the hidden places of the heart to give sorrow.
Also various manifestations of doctrine are almost everywhere trumpeting that we are all "sinners". That may be true before you are entirely sanctified -but certainly not afterwards. It is not necessary or even natural to sin in thought word or deed after you enter His Rest. Honest mistakes happen, but deeds of sin and sanctification are mutually exclusive. True freedom from sin and sinwardness is yours -in every sense -while remaining quite human.

As mentioned in various posts, this sanctification comes in a "moment of time" just as salvation does. It is not a progression, although the work of preparation may certainly take considerable time.

Yours in His Service;
Tom Plumb
"Earnest Seeker"

[contriteheart]

I think about this in terms of the exodus from Egypt/conquest of Canaan. The Bible tells us that what happened to the Israelites happened for our instruction.

Here's how I see it at the moment:

Passover = Christ's sacrifice, delivering us from the Death Angel

Exodus = Leaving slavery to sin and Satan behind, the beginning of the walk of faith

Red Sea = baptism (The Bible says they were baptised into Moses and the sea)

Wilderness wanderings = the life of faith that has already received justification by faith, but is still not trusting for sanctification by faith (Remember, even though they had been divinely delivered from slavery and death, they doubted their ability to enter the promised land because of the giants they saw there.)

Crossing the Jordan = the point at which faith for entire sanctification is exercised

The promised land = the faith-walk within the experience of entire sanctification, wherein by God's grace we by faith overcome any remaining fleshly enemies in our lives

I know this post was somewhat choppy, but does that make sense to anyone?

[contriteheart]

I think various people have called this experience of entire sanctification by other names, too. The baptism/filling of the Holy Spirit comes to mind.

[contriteheart]

I also think that you can have this experience and then return to thinking that you can sanctify yourself.

I believe Galatians tried to do this. What's that verse, "Having begun by faith, are you now being perfected by the works of the flesh?" Something like that...

[HeatherJay]

I think various people have called this experience of entire sanctification by other names, too. The baptism/filling of the Holy Spirit comes to mind.
Theosis is another similar concept...

[earnestseeker]

Yes, Yada, you have your O.T. types and shadows quite clear in your mind.
Saved folks are wandering in the wilderness, because they have not yet obtained the fullness of promise. They will not admit this though, because they have as much as anybody else does.

Here is an excerpt from page 23 of "How to Enter His Rest" a free PDF on the "Entry Directions" page of the enterhisrest.org website:

The Two Crossings
The Red sea and Jordan. (Exodus 14:13-31; Joshua 1:2, 3.) At the Red Sea, Israel escaped the bondage of
Pharaoh and the destruction of his armies. At Jordan it was led into “a land of corn and wine and victory.”
In both instances God did the work, and they were victorious through faith. So at conversion man escapes
the bondage of Satan and the destruction from his sins. At the Jordan of the Double Cure he is triumphantly
led into the Beulah Land of complete cleansing and perfect love. As they crossed “by faith,” so he is
justified and completely sanctified “by faith.” “Being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye
have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22.)
The Wilderness and Canaan
(Nehemiah 9:12, 13, 15; Numbers 13:27.) The wilderness with its wanderings, inconsistencies, and yet
frequent manifestations of God’s presence, is a type of the justified life.
Canaan is a fully saved life where the believer tests the blessedness of the promise which declares “that we
should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all that hate us; to perform the mercy promised to
our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant; the oath which He swore to our father Abraham; that He
would grant unto us, that we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without
fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:71-75.)

.....and there are many other references there to Crossing the Jordan, and the many other O. T. types and shadows that represent this cuminating work of His redeeming work in our lives.

And yes, Heather, the term "Baptism in the Spirit" came to be used as a synonym for obtaining entire sanctification -however in these days the term is used by different denominations to refer to distinct things. Pentecostals have improperly taken ownership of this pre-existing term to refer to the time when they are awakened to the moving of the Holy Spirit within. This "being filled with the Holy Spirit" has nothing to do with sanctification. It is just a glorious and impressive part of the basic salvation experience - just as faith for healing is.
This "pentecostal terminology" came especially into fashion in the ministry of Phoebe Palmer who was especially instrumental in confusing the message passed down from Wesley -so that many considered themselves sanctified when they were not. This is one of the big reasons that the Holiness Movement became weak so long ago.
It is my opinion that the term "Baptism in the Spirit" is more properly used as a general term to refer to everything that John the Baptist was referring to that happened on the day of Pentecost -not any separate one of the many things that happened on that momentous day. But this is controversial, so I will say no more. There are several other terms that we can use that are less controversial, so I prefer them, even though they may sound less exciting....

Yours in His Service;
Tom Plumb "Earnest Seeker"

[tpony298]

Whoever,

Does anyone at all, of the Nazarene/Wesleyan/Methodist persuasion, have a personal testimony as to the day when you received the "Wesleyan" experience of entire sanctification? (After all, within Evang./charis. Christendom it is the one distinguishing feature of these denominations, is it not?)

Pray tell, please. Thanks, jim

Dear Jim, sorry to be so long in answering your post. I have been ill.

You asked for a personal experience..well, here how it was for me:

It was like that of the metaphorises of a butter fly,

First i was concieved as a human being...lived and grew and developed insided a "cacoon" until the day, in tears and pain, I was born...100 per cent human...instantly, never to return to the previous state again.

At 13 the Hold Spirit called to me and convicted me of my state pending death... I repented of sins at the alter in tears and pain..and instantly became a new creature. A spiritual creature, 100 per cent belonging to the family of God...

In the cacoon of the physical body, I have lived and been groomed, and taught the ways of this new family.

I am in the process of learning the responsiblities of this new creature.... God and i are constant companions. I talk to Him all the time...He talks to me all the time...I totally depend on Him for every need. And he always provides. I am serious here...for example, I have a mobility problem and have trouble getting my pants on...many times i have been straining to try to get them over my feet, and i will say.."I need a little help here, Lord" and sure enough, my feet will moved down the pants legs.

Yes, I have all the basic needs every human has. I just have the advantage of not needing to sweat about them. God takes care of them

It is a wonderful life to be able to live and breathe and grow with the Holy Family as a new creature.

I would be most miserable if i did not have God in my life.
I think your question was did I instantly become "sin-free".. Yes. Jesus died and paid the price for my sins...I am born again..Everyday, I pray.."lead me not into temptation...deliver me from evil" Our sin's aren't so much what we do in the physical. Our sin was the seperation from God. Our non-belief...for that we were automaticly condemmed.

I have scriptures for all this, but you didn't ask for a sermon,, you asked for as personal experience


I hope i was able to help you.

sincerely, Pony

[tpony298]

[quote=earnestseeker;31792606]Yes, Yada, you have your O.T. types and shadows quite clear in your mind.
Saved folks are wandering in the wilderness, because they have not yet obtained the fullness of promise. They will not admit this though, because they have as much as anybody else does.


Dear earnestseeker...welcome to the forum.. It is so good to see your icon. I was begingin to think I was the only Wesleyan here...That maybe i missed the rapture...lol...and was left all alone.....

It is good to have you,,,

Love Joyce

[ContraMundum]

Yes, Yada, you have your O.T. types and shadows quite clear in your mind.
Saved folks are wandering in the wilderness, because they have not yet obtained the fullness of promise. They will not admit this though, because they have as much as anybody else does.

Here is an excerpt from page 23 of "How to Enter His Rest" a free PDF on the "Entry Directions" page of the enterhisrest.org website:

The Two Crossings
The Red sea and Jordan. (Exodus 14:13-31; Joshua 1:2, 3.) At the Red Sea, Israel escaped the bondage of
Pharaoh and the destruction of his armies. At Jordan it was led into “a land of corn and wine and victory.”
In both instances God did the work, and they were victorious through faith. So at conversion man escapes
the bondage of Satan and the destruction from his sins. At the Jordan of the Double Cure he is triumphantly
led into the Beulah Land of complete cleansing and perfect love. As they crossed “by faith,” so he is
justified and completely sanctified “by faith.” “Being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye
have your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22.)
The Wilderness and Canaan
(Nehemiah 9:12, 13, 15; Numbers 13:27.) The wilderness with its wanderings, inconsistencies, and yet
frequent manifestations of God’s presence, is a type of the justified life.
Canaan is a fully saved life where the believer tests the blessedness of the promise which declares “that we
should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all that hate us; to perform the mercy promised to
our fathers, and to remember His holy covenant; the oath which He swore to our father Abraham; that He
would grant unto us, that we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve Him without
fear, in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:71-75.)

.....and there are many other references there to Crossing the Jordan, and the many other O. T. types and shadows that represent this cuminating work of His redeeming work in our lives.

And yes, Heather, the term "Baptism in the Spirit" came to be used as a synonym for obtaining entire sanctification -however in these days the term is used by different denominations to refer to distinct things. Pentecostals have improperly taken ownership of this pre-existing term to refer to the time when they are awakened to the moving of the Holy Spirit within. This "being filled with the Holy Spirit" has nothing to do with sanctification. It is just a glorious and impressive part of the basic salvation experience - just as faith for healing is.
This "pentecostal terminology" came especially into fashion in the ministry of Phoebe Palmer who was especially instrumental in confusing the message passed down from Wesley -so that many considered themselves sanctified when they were not. This is one of the big reasons that the Holiness Movement became weak so long ago.
It is my opinion that the term "Baptism in the Spirit" is more properly used as a general term to refer to everything that John the Baptist was referring to that happened on the day of Pentecost -not any separate one of the many things that happened on that momentous day. But this is controversial, so I will say no more. There are several other terms that we can use that are less controversial, so I prefer them, even though they may sound less exciting....

Yours in His Service;
Tom Plumb "Earnest Seeker"





Tom, your book really helped me. Bless you and it's good to have you here.

[contriteheart]

Earnest Seeker - welcome to CF! We're glad you're here.

Contra - welcome back to WP! (FYI - I used to go by contriteheart. I've changed my username.)

To all - please be careful about putting any personally identifying information or specific location in your posts or profile. There is a case right now in another congregational forum where such information was used in a harmful way.

-Grace

[contriteheart]

PS: I'd really like to hear more on the subject of entire sanctification (though I tend to prefer to call it "sanctification by faith.") This is something I personally go back and forth on. I don't really see it as a one time experience, but as a constant, day-by-day walk of consecration and faith.

[tpony298]

PS: I'd really like to hear more on the subject of entire sanctification (though I tend to prefer to call it "sanctification by faith.") This is something I personally go back and forth on. I don't really see it as a one time experience, but as a constant, day-by-day walk of consecration and faith.

and you are right...of course it is daily walking with God.

Verses like "Seek ye first the kingdom of God..." is the priority thought of the day.

"Seek and ye shall find.."

"Think on the good things..." is another....

"Ask and you shall receive...believing.."

People seeking the favor of God do not wish to sin...
they want only to see God smile on them...

It is when we start seking worldly pleasures that we get into trouble.

The big thing is... we do not do anything...God does the work...He is the potter...He is the gardener...
WE..just are....and He said to Moses "I AM" I exsist...
we exsist...WE are of the same family that God is from...pure and holy...

Sincerely..Pony

[Copyman]

What a difference forty years can make !

Forty years ago, the mechanic could physically
raise the hood on a car and vertically stand
between the motor and the fender and work
on the motor. AND there were shade tree
mechanics everywhere.

Translated: Things were simple and everyone
had some understanding of what could be
done to the product.

Today everything is made complicated so that
nothing is understood well.

When I was knee high to a grass hopper
when you became saved / born again you
gave the LORD your past. He saved you
from the penalty of those sins and gave
you new life.

When you became entirely sanctified you
gave the LORD your future and committed
everything to Him -- what kind of employment,
where you might work, who you may marry,
and when you might retire.

It was easier to give God your sins, but
a struggle to give Him your plans and desires.

That is why many never press on toward
entire sanctification. Because dying to
one's desires is not easy, not popular, and
we see few examples.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it."
Matthew 16:25

"Give God what's right, not what's left."

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

this is an interesting conversation. I am just entering into the Wesleyan theology and learning more each day. We are in the process of looking for a church and coming out of the Catholic church. We have visited both the Methodist church and the Nazarene church and still plan on visiting a Wesleyan church before making a decision where to attend.

Could someone tell me...do all 3 (Methodist/Wesleyan/Nazarene) churches teach entire sanctification?? Was it a teaching preached by John Wesley?? If so, anyone have a link to his sermon (s) about Entire Sanctification? i would love to read them if they are available. Thanks.

[Copyman]

Hello Red Tulip,

I'm not able to post links on this forum yet.

Go to google and type

john wesley sermon

a link beginning with

gbgm-umc dot org is where you will find
144 sermons preached by John Wesley

The one you're looking for is titled
Christian Perfection

I hope this is of help to you.

[RadicallyTransformedMom]

yes, thank you so much copyman!!

[HisBelovedMelody]

OK, I am wondering. I researched alot about the Nazerene faith. I LOVE it...and it is close to my own believes. (I was pentecostal, nothing wrong, but Nazerene is just closer to how I believe)...but I was wondering. Do you in general believe in the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the eveidence of speaking in tongues? I haven't seen alot of information on that.