What is "Apostolic Succession"??

[pastel]

What is this "apostolic succession" other threads keep talking about? Are there more than 12 Apostles? :confused:

[Tetzel]

You could ask the Anglicans. They're really big on it

[pastel]

You could ask the Anglicans. They're really big on it

It doesn't sound as if I'm missing out on anything then! :yawn:

[ninja]

From my understanding it is a direct line of succession of authority from Christ a few churches claim it Catholic and Orthodox I'm sure there are others as well

[Tetzel]

Insert obligatory reference to some Lutherans in Sweden having apostolic succession here

[SPALATIN]

The Lutheran Church does believe in Apostolic Succession. Ask your Pastor.

[KagomeShuko]

From my understanding it is a direct line of succession of authority from Christ a few churches claim it Catholic and Orthodox I'm sure there are others as well
Yeah, it's something like that. ..I never understood it that much and we dialogued with sharing an Episcopal pastor for awhile, so we talked just a little bit about that, but it didn't come up after, "Oh, that's what it is. . .okay."

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ChiRho]

Apostolic Succession.
Strictly speaking, the term describes the teaching of the E Orthodox, Monophysite, Nestorian, RC, Old Cath., Ch. of S India, and Swed. and certain other Luth. Christians that the ministry of their churches has come down from the apostles in an unbroken succession of bps. Of those named above, the Luths., the Ch. of S India, and some Anglicans regard the apostolic succession merely as a valuable symbol of continuity with the past, in a class with the creeds and the liturgy, and do not make it a test of the validity of a clergyman's ministry. E Orthodox, Monophysite, Nestorian, RC and some Angl. Christians gen. regard it as necessary to the existence of the church and to the valid ministration of most sacraments; RCs make a special point of the succession of the bps. of Rome from Peter. The hist. fact of the apostolic succession can be assumed with reasonable safety after the emergence of the monarchial episcopate as the normal form of govt. in the ch.; the demonstration of the hist. fact in the crucial period immediately after the apostles is beset with insurmountable difficulties.

Although the Luth. symbols affirm the desire to retain the apostolic succession and hist. episcopate (Ap XIV 1, 5) only a few canonically consecrated bps. accepted the Reformation and, except in Swed., political and other considerations prevented them from transmitting the apostolic succession to the Luth. community. Lacking bps. to ordain their candidates for the sacred ministry, the Luths. appealed to the patristically attested facts that originally bps. and priests constituted only one order; that the right to ordain was inherent in the priesthood (a principle on which a number of popes of the 15th c., among them Boniface IX, Martin V, and Innocent VIII, acted in authorizing Cistercian abbots who were only priests to ordain); that thence “an ordination administered by a pastor in his own church is valid by divine law” (Tractatus 65); and that when the canonical bps. refuse to impart ordination “the churches are compelled by divine law to ordain pastors and ministers, using their own pastors for this purpose (adhibitis suis pastoribus)” (ibid., 72). The succession of the ministry in the Luth. Ch. may therefore be presumed to be a valid presbyterial one.

Episc. polity does not imply apostolic succession; the Luth. provincial churches in Ger. and the Meth. Ch. in the US are cases in point. In other cases, an episc. succession originated in a consecration by a clergyman in priest's orders, e.g., in the Luth. Ch. in Den., Nor., Iceland. The apostolic succession of the medieval Waldensians, and hence of the Moravian Unitas Fratrum, also rests on improbable legends. Many “wandering bishops” (episcopi vagantes) claim to stand in some Old Cath., E Orthodox, Nestorian, or Monophysite succession, but their competence validly to ordain and to consecrate is gen. denied by the bodies from whom they claim episc. descent.

The term “apostolic succession” is at times applied in a broad, nontechnical sense to a succession of doctrine or of believers from the apostles; but this is misleading.

A. Ehrhardt, The Apostolic Succession in the First Two Centuries of the Church (London, 1953); Hans Freiherr von Campenhausen, Kirchliches Amt und geistliche Vollmacht in den ersten drei Jahrhunderten; (Tübingen, 1953); E. Benz, Bischofsamt und apostolische Sukzession im deutschen Protestantismus (Stuttgart, 1953); T. W. Manson, The Church's Ministry (London, 1948); K. E. Kirk and others, The Apostolic Ministry (London, 1946); H. Brandreth, Episcopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church, 2d ed. (London, 1961). ACP

Source: Cyclopedia (http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=A&t2=p)

[pastel]

That is interesting, ChiRho, and a few others. In Revelation it states 12 stones for the 12 apostles. Rev. 21:14

Then in Acts they chose another Apostle. Matthias Chosen
(cf. Ps. 109:8)
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the *disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it';*

and,

'Let* another take his *office.'

21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

===

So you see why my confusion. :confused:

[SPALATIN]

That is interesting, ChiRho, and a few others. In Revelation it states 12 stones for the 12 apostles. Rev. 21:14

Then in Acts they chose another Apostle. Matthias Chosen
(cf. Ps. 109:8)
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the *disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it';*

and,

'Let* another take his *office.'

21 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

===

So you see why my confusion. :confused:

Mathias was chosen to replace the betrayer Judas, however, we don't hear much about him after that. Was Paul one of the original 12? No, that is apparent, however, there is a difference between how the disciples chose Mathias and how God chose Paul. Matthias was chosen by lot. God threw a magnanimous light in front of Paul and Jesus spoke to him. Which do you think had the better qualification of being an Apostle?

[pastel]

Mathias was chosen to replace the betrayer Judas, however, we don't hear much about him after that. Was Paul one of the original 12? No, that is apparent, however, there is a difference between how the disciples chose Mathias and how God chose Paul. Matthias was chosen by lot. God threw a magnanimous light in front of Paul and Jesus spoke to him. Which do you think had the better qualification of being an Apostle?

I don't know. (This is beginning to sound like a controversy! Sorry. ) Matthias is Matthew, and probably the one who wrote the book of Matthew. He was present with Jesus when Our Saviour walked the earth. I'd say Matthew has a lot going for him.

Paul did some awesome things too. I'm not here to argue about anything. Just a little information gathering on an area it seems I'm weak in. :o

[CrossWiseMag]

From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:

Concerning this subject we have frequently testified in this assembly that it is our greatest wish to maintain church-polity and the grades in the Church [old church-regulations and the government of bishops], even though they have been made by human authority [provided the bishops allow our doctrine and receive our priests]. For we know that church discipline was instituted by the Fathers, in the manner laid down in the ancient canons, with a good and useful intention. 25] But the bishops either compel our priests to reject and condemn this kind of doctrine which we have confessed, or, by a new and unheard-of cruelty, they put to death the poor innocent men. These causes hinder our priests from acknowledging such bishops. Thus the cruelty of the bishops is the reason why the canonical government, which we greatly desired to maintain, is in some places dissolved. Let them see to it how they will give an account to God for dispersing 26] the Church.

Apostolic succession is a good thing. But because Rome rejected the Gospel and condemned and persecuted priests who preached the true Gospel, it is Rome who is responsible for the breakdown of apostolic succession. Nonetheless, apostolic succession was a man-made provision for order in the church, and so it is not necessary that our pastors fall in a line of apostolic succession for their ministry to be valid.

[pastel]

Still, it is interesting to read what Eusebius had to say...from a historical point of view, of course.

[sculpturegirl]

Aren't we all sort of apostles? Or at least saints!!!!111

[pastel]

Aren't we all sort of apostles? Or at least saints!!!!111

We are all saints. I would more equate missionaries with apostles, myself. I believe some of the early church leaders who were also martyred would be considered apostles. Just a thought.