Are these Christian Lyrics?

[ChiRho]

This is the lyrical half of the song "How Great" off of the album Illuminate, by the David Crowder Band. Are these Christian lyrics?

I'm so bored of little gods
While standing on the edge of
something large
While standing here, so close to You
We could be consumed
What a glorious day

I give up, I lay down
Rest my face upon this ground
Lift my eyes to Your sky
Rid my heart of all I hide

So sweet this surrender

CHORUS:
How great Your love for us
How great our love for You
That grace could cover us
How great Your love

How marvelous, how brilliantly
Luminous, You shine on me
And who can fail to give You awe
To fear You, God, so sovereign and strong

What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
Glorious day

[SPALATIN]

This is the lyrical half of the song "How Great" off of the album Illuminate, by the David Crowder Band. Are these Christian lyrics?

I'm so bored of little gods
While standing on the edge of
something large
While standing here, so close to You
We could be consumed
What a glorious day

I give up, I lay down
Rest my face upon this ground
Lift my eyes to Your sky
Rid my heart of all I hide

So sweet this surrender

CHORUS:
How great Your love for us
How great our love for You
That grace could cover us
How great Your love

How marvelous, how brilliantly
Luminous, You shine on me
And who can fail to give You awe
To fear You, God, so sovereign and strong

What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
Glorious day

The words may look and sound Christian, but the Theology is Glory not Cross

[PaladinGirl]

The words may look and sound Christian, but the Theology is Glory not Cross

What do you mean by that? :confused:

Personally, I voted yes. The lyrics sound Christian to me.

[Qoheleth]

Believe it or not, some have said that this song is no more Christian then anyother religion that teaches grace



Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

[mrcrow]

The words may look and sound Christian, but the Theology is Glory not Cross
christianity is not about God
its about Jesus
songs to God dont make sense unless we use the way by which He requires us to approach Him
otherwise you are just a Godian
that song sounds to....new age-ish

if you cant confess Jesus is Lord....then you are playing at being christian..

God's business is God's business...through Jesus is how we get involved in it.

[KagomeShuko]

Voted yes, but feel I could pull that song apart in quite a few places. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

Voted yes, but feel I could pull that song apart in quite a few places. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget
Adding to my post, if not every place. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

Believe it or not, some have said that this song is no more Christian then anyother religion that teaches grace



Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.
*get jealous of people with lyrics to more than five verses of Amazing Grace* LOL j/k!

It makes me wonder what other great verses of hymns I am missing sometimes, though!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Bollman]

I voted yes. But of course I am a huge DCB fan and play many of their songs with my youth.

David Crowder writes a lot of his stuff from Psalms. This looks like an interpretation of a Psalm of David to me. I will have to scan around the bible when I get home and see if I can find a scriptural foundation.

Bollman

[SPALATIN]

What do you mean by that? :confused:

Personally, I voted yes. The lyrics sound Christian to me.

They have many references to God and his glory, but nothing about Jesus and his suffering. That is what makes it theology of Glory.

[SPALATIN]

christianity is not about God
its about Jesus
songs to God dont make sense unless we use the way by which He requires us to approach Him
otherwise you are just a Godian
that song sounds to....new age-ish

if you cant confess Jesus is Lord....then you are playing at being christian..

God's business is God's business...through Jesus is how we get involved in it.

So you agree with me then? If the song were representing the Theology of the cross it would have had references to Jesus and his suffering for our sins or references to Christ's work of salvation.

[Jim47]

Better than a heavy metal band and a sex display, but not quite what I call Christian, could be with a little more work?

[sculpturegirl]

Would a hymn that offers praise and thanksgiving to God, without mentioning Christ, be a "Christian Hymn?"

[Zoomer]

I voted that it is a Christian song, but it honestly has very little substance.

[CSMR]

Unclear to me what the song means.

[KagomeShuko]

It's not a bad song. . .and I think you could call it Christian in the sense that it praises God. . .

However, if you are looking for Christian with Theology of the Cross, then no. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Bollman]

By your standards are these Christian lyrics? This song is all praise and no cross as well.


As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after thee
You alone are my hearts desire
And I long to worship you


You alone are my strength, my shield

To You alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my hearts desire
And I long to worship you

[pastel]

I'd call it quasi-Christian, and if this is secular music, then I suppose it may have its use. However, this is not something I'd want played in church (I'm fussy - okay). I voted "no" because if it cannot be worthy of a church service, it isn't of much use to me. However, I'm sure there are people who enjoy hearing such a thing on their home stereo. That's okay. I'm sure there is a use for it in the secular, quasi-Christian world.

Forgive me, I'm cranky today...had jury duty. At least I don't have to serve. They booted me out, as usual ;) .

[Lutherrunner]

I kind of wonder what is meant by the first line:

"I'm so bored of little gods"

I myself like your basic Lutheran liturgical service in church and secular music on my stereo....

[pastel]

I kind of wonder what is meant by the first line:

"I'm so bored of little gods"

I myself like your basic Lutheran liturgical service in church and secular music on my stereo....


Good for you. That would sound awesome. :thumbsup:

[Lutherrunner]

Good for you. That would sound awesome. :thumbsup:

Thanks....I happen to really like singer/songwriter type music....with real world lyrics....

[ByzantineDixie]

They have many references to God and his glory, but nothing about Jesus and his suffering. That is what makes it theology of Glory.

Hey...what about these lyrics?

Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth.
Worship the LORD with gladness;
come before him with joyful songs.
Know that the LORD is God.
It is he who made us, and we are his;
we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.

Enter his gates with thanksgiving
and his courts with praise;
give thanks to him and praise his name.
For the LORD is good and his love endures forever;
his faithfulness continues through all generations.

All glory, isn't it?

Scotty, I love ya, but I am going to have to pick on your argument a bit.

This is Psalm 100, I pulled it from my daily devotions this week. Uh oh...someone forgot to tell the psalmist about the Theology of Glory! :eek:

How about this one:

Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

OH NO!!! Have we been tricked? Is our Divine Service tainted with the Theology of Glory! :eek:

I see some theological problems with the song ChiRho posted, no doubt, but the "Theology of Glory" argument to me is weak. I would argue, at least in the case our example Psalm here and our liturgical excerpt that context (Scripture in the case of the Psalm and the liturgy in the case of the Sanctus) absolves both. We don't know the context in which this song is being used so perhaps to judge it on the basis of "glory" alone might not be the best way to go.

Peace

Rose

[Bollman]

Ok... here is my take on this song.

First off, we must consider the source of these lyrics. David Crowder is theologically a Baptist. This song is about the day he left his old life and decided to follow Jesus. It is about the day he became saved.


I'm so bored of little gods While standing on the edge of something large
While standing here, so close to You We could be consumed
This part is about how he wasn't living life for God but for the idols of today, fame, wealth, and other worldy things. He was tired of the false satisfation of these things and turned to God to fill that void.



I give up, I lay down Rest my face upon this ground
Lift my eyes to Your sky Rid my heart of all I hide So sweet this surrender
The sub-chorus is pretty straightforward submission and confession to Christ.



How great Your love for us How great our love for You
That grace could cover us How great Your love

The chorus is some adoration to God. Again, I say it sounds much like the Psalms of David.




How marvelous, how brilliantly Luminous, You shine on me
And who can fail to give You awe To fear You, God, so sovereign and strong

Verse two describes the effect being saved has on his life. The entire album uses the metaphor of light and shining on people. This comes from the first chapter of John and the Light of the World parable.




What a glorious day What a wonderful day, today


The outro is just affirmation of how great and wondrous was the day he surrendered to the Lord.


As for opinions of the song, I guess YMMV.

<edited to make easier to read>

[Bollman]

I kind of wonder what is meant by the first line:

"I'm so bored of little gods"





Blessed is the man

who makes the LORD his trust,

who does not look to the proud,

to those who turn aside to false gods.--Psalm 40:4

[SPALATIN]

Hey...what about these lyrics?

Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth.
Worship the LORD with gladness;
come before him with joyful songs.
Know that the LORD is God.
It is he who made us, and we are his;
we are his people, the sheep of his pasture.

Enter his gates with thanksgiving
and his courts with praise;
give thanks to him and praise his name.
For the LORD is good and his love endures forever;
his faithfulness continues through all generations.

All glory, isn't it?

But it is rightly placed Glory and describes that he made us and because he made us we are his.

Scotty, I love ya, but I am going to have to pick on your argument a bit.

This is Psalm 100, I pulled it from my daily devotions this week. Uh oh...someone forgot to tell the psalmist about the Theology of Glory! :eek:

Again I don't hold the Psalm to be TOG, because there is a definite descriptor of God's relationship to us as understood by the Psalmist in his time. And in that time they had hope for a Messiah. It also speaks of God's faithfulness to all generations. It also refers to the Shepherd and the sheep which is what Christ was known as to those who did follow him

How about this one:

Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

OH NO!!! Have we been tricked? Is our Divine Service tainted with the Theology of Glory! :eek:

I see some theological problems with the song ChiRho posted, no doubt, but the "Theology of Glory" argument to me is weak. I would argue, at least in the case our example Psalm here and our liturgical excerpt that context (Scripture in the case of the Psalm and the liturgy in the case of the Sanctus) absolves both. We don't know the context in which this song is being used so perhaps to judge it on the basis of "glory" alone might not be the best way to go.

Peace

Rose
Rose,

I am going to stick to my original diagnosis on this song. ON LQ, Ron Harmeyer noted that


I" used four times. "My" or "me" used four times.

What do we learn? God's love for us is "great". The singer's love for God is "great". That's right: a co-equal relationship. [No mention of the fact that God's love is so great that he sacrificed is Son for us; while the singer's love for God is so great that he is "bored".]

No mention of why the singer loves God.

Most dangerous:

How great our love for You
That grace could cover us

Apparently, we receive God's grace because we love God. So much for the concept of undeserved.



I think he does a good job of identifying the problem about this song. He also offered in comparison hymn 317 from LW "God, whose almighty word"

In comparing the Psalm Mr. Harmeyer says this:


There are a couple of responses to this:

First, the psalm clearly states why we should "worship" God:

1. The LORD is God.
2. He made us.
3. He owns us ("we are his people")
4. He is our shepherd ("we are his sheep")
5. He is good.
6. His love endures forever.

This is not the theology of me. It is the theology of praising God for who God is.

As a seperate response, the Lutheran liturgy includes both psalmody and hymnody. They both serve distinct purposes. It makes no more sense to respond to criticism of a hymn with a psalm than it does to respond with any other element of the liturgy. Its like saying "how is the prayer of thanksgiving (Lift up your hearts. We lift them up to the Lord) not theology of Glory?" Such a response shows the danger of gutting the liturgy and taking just the pieces that you like.

[pastel]

I have to agree it may make an evangelizing type of song. It kind of depends on the perspective. This may open a dialog with those searching for God, Jesus, and salvation. However, as I said previously, it wouldn't make a good song for a church service. There is a place and time for everything.

[SPALATIN]

I have to agree it may make an evangelizing type of song. It kind of depends on the perspective. This may open a dialog with those searching for God, Jesus, and salvation. However, as I said previously, it wouldn't make a good song for a church service. There is a place and time for everything.

Quite frankly it doesn't even make a good evangelizing song either. It is too abstract and for the other reasons I stated above.

[pastel]

Quite frankly it doesn't even make a good evangelizing song either. It is too abstract and for the other reasons I stated above.

There are probably better ones, but I've seen the most mundane things hit a chord with an unbeliever, and they begin to seek the Christian faith. God can work miracles with anything. :)

[KagomeShuko]

There are probably better ones, but I've seen the most mundane things hit a chord with an unbeliever, and they begin to seek the Christian faith. God can work miracles with anything. :)
Very true. . .I am always surprised with what brings people to Christ. . .God works miracles all the time. . .sometimes, it is the oddest little thing they hear. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[SPALATIN]

The only thing that brings people to Christ is the Word. People are exposed to the word of God and the Holy Spirit convicts that word in them to bring them to the need for him. That song does not have the word, but is a rambling of ones feelings about God and they are not very clear. There was not any semblance of scripture in those lyrics.

[CSMR]

(Of course a "co-equal relationship" or our love for God and God's for us is not a theology of glory, at least of the glory of God.)

[SPALATIN]

(Of course a "co-equal relationship" or our love for God and God's for us is not a theology of glory, at least of the glory of God.)

CSMR,

There is a vast difference between a Theology of glory and the Glory of God.

The theology focuses on us. God's glory is God's Glory. We look for the Theology of the Cross here which is God's holy work done for us. Psalm 100 is not representative of a Theology of Glory because it is a response to what God has done.

[Qoheleth]

I believe hymns should reflect Gods service to us first (always) and then our thanks, praise and service to him

Q

[ByzantineDixie]

CSMR,

There is a vast difference between a Theology of glory and the Glory of God.

The theology focuses on us. God's glory is God's Glory. We look for the Theology of the Cross here which is God's holy work done for us. Psalm 100 is not representative of a Theology of Glory because it is a response to what God has done.

I really have no love for these lyrics at all but I don't see where you say this song is not in response to what God has done for us?

How great Your love for us
How great our love for You
That grace could cover us
How great Your love

We love because he first loved us...His grace covers us...He loves us...

Again...not crazy about the song at all but I think the statement here made that this is not a song in response to what God has done is disingenuous.

If you say it doesn't talk about the cross...that's true, it doesn't.
If you say it smells of decision theology...that's true, too.
But if you say this isn't a song of response...well, I can't say that based on the words I read.

Peace

Rose

[SPALATIN]

I really have no love for these lyrics at all but I don't see where you say this song is not in response to what God has done for us?

How great Your love for us
How great our love for You
That grace could cover us
How great Your love

We love because he first loved us...His grace covers us...He loves us...

Again...not crazy about the song at all but I think the statement here made that this is not a song in response to what God has done is disingenuous.

If you say it doesn't talk about the cross...that's true, it doesn't.
If you say it smells of decision theology...that's true, too.
But if you say this isn't a song of response...well, I can't say that based on the words I read.

Peace

Rose

Rose,

Lets take it line by line.

How great Your love for us

Ok, I will concede this line is good alone by itself it is not a problem. But it is a blanket statement and has no reason based on the other lyrics for being there. It is just some words he thought of to make a chorus or refrain for his song.


How great our love for You

We know that this is only possible after we have been convicted by the spirit and since he is supposedly saved i guess it makes sense to a point. But why do we love him?


That grace could cover us

This sentence only makes sense with the first two


How great Your love

How was his love worked out for us? This whole refrain does not display why Christ's love was so great nor why we should love him. It may be responsive but really what is it responsive to in regards to the other lyrics which are steeped in me or my language.

In short, this whole song is very benign and has no meaning to anyone but the person who wrote or sang it.

[ByzantineDixie]

Rose,

Lets take it line by line.

How great Your love for us

Ok, I will concede this line is good alone by itself it is not a problem. But it is a blanket statement and has no reason based on the other lyrics for being there. It is just some words he thought of to make a chorus or refrain for his song.

I admitted earlier this song did not talk about the cross...but glad to know you agree God loves us. ;)



How great our love for You

We know that this is only possible after we have been convicted by the spirit and since he is supposedly saved i guess it makes sense to a point. But why do we love him?

I understand your point and that's one of the reasons this isn't a great song but does every song have to include every article of faith? Can't believers sing a song expressing our love for God and all He does for us...in context of course, like the Sanctus in the Mass.

That grace could cover us

This sentence only makes sense with the first two

Well...ya....that's why it follows them. Songs are not considered good or bad contingent on whether each line stands on its own, are they? :scratch:

How great Your love

How was his love worked out for us? This whole refrain does not display why Christ's love was so great nor why we should love him. It may be responsive but really what is it responsive to in regards to the other lyrics which are steeped in me or my language.

In short, this whole song is very benign and has no meaning to anyone but the person who wrote or sang it.



Again...I don't mean to defend the song so much as I mean to require a little more in our critcism of it than some pat dismissals. The song talks about the grace that covers us...man, that sure makes me happy and want to sing praises to God.

What would you say about this one....

Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost

No discussion of the cross here either. Frankly it offers little more "theology" than this set of lyrics we are discussing from the song in the OP...other than the obvious mention of the Trinity--but no discussion of the functions of the Trinity...just praise.

Peace

Rose

[sculpturegirl]

If this guy is expressing his feelings about God, and he is a Christian, then it could be Christian art for sure!

[Rechtgläubig]

This is the lyrical half of the song "How Great" off of the album Illuminate, by the David Crowder Band. Are these Christian lyrics?

I'm so bored of little gods
While standing on the edge of
something large
While standing here, so close to You
We could be consumed
What a glorious day

I give up, I lay down
Rest my face upon this ground
Lift my eyes to Your sky
Rid my heart of all I hide

So sweet this surrender

CHORUS:
How great Your love for us
How great our love for You
That grace could cover us
How great Your love

How marvelous, how brilliantly
Luminous, You shine on me
And who can fail to give You awe
To fear You, God, so sovereign and strong

What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
What a glorious day
What a wonderful day, today
Glorious day

Ahhh I get such warm fuzzies. This song takes me back to the day that I decided that I would make Jesus my Lord and Savior! Yay for me! ::pats own back:: Best choice I ever made!

:clap: :D :amen:

[Bollman]

...since he is supposedly saved i guess it makes sense to a point.


Let's not call David Crowder's faith into question. His minstery is bringing an entire generation to the Lord. If his music isn't for you, listen to something else. No need to question his relationship and dedication to the Lord.

As I stated in an above post, YMMV. If this song doesn't speak to you, don't listen to it. The fact is that many young kids I minister to aren't inspired by the Traditional service at our church. But put in David Crowder band and they open up. YMMV. I don't see why some people are wasting so much time trying to discredit the song. If the song doesn't speak to you, hit skip and listen to another.



Bollman

[ByzantineDixie]

Bollman, not to worry...every so often someone ends up on this chopping block here in TCCL. This time it happens to be DCB.

The fact of the matter is there is very little contemporary music made which is truly good from a Lutheran perspective. And there aren't many Lutheran artists which means if we want to listen to contemporary Christian music in our cars, on the train, on the plane and at home we have to "settle".

I have "settled" by finding Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox artists...sometimes there are songs on the CDs which speak to transubstantion and icon venerating...but on balance the lyrics tend to have more depth and be more theologically sound. But I am older and what I have found may appeal to me but not kids.

What we need are Lutheran artists but it seems to we tend to discourage our young musicians with this constant crticism of contemporary Christian music...as if the very nature of modern musical styling were the problem, rather than the weak lyrics. That is where I think we need to be careful.

Peace

Rose

[SPALATIN]

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What would you say about this one....

Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him above ye heavenly hosts
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost

No discussion of the cross here either. Frankly it offers little more "theology" than this set of lyrics we are discussing from the song in the OP...other than the obvious mention of the Trinity--but no discussion of the functions of the Trinity...just praise.

Peace

Rose

Ok, basic doxology. We are praising him because from him come all blessings.


The fact that you recognize that it puts more theology into the song than the OP shows how shallow the OP song is. The problem with OP song was not that it didn't have Theology of the Cross in it, but that it didn't have any theology at all. It was a rambling poem that he put to music.

[KagomeShuko]

The fact of the matter is there is very little contemporary music made which is truly good from a Lutheran perspective. And there aren't many Lutheran artists which means if we want to listen to contemporary Christian music in our cars, on the train, on the plane and at home we have to "settle".

Exactly. I tend to listen to Christian radio stations in my truck, but I'm never really thrilled with the songs. Some, I like, but it's still not good Lutheran perspective. In fact, yesterday after I left the church when I was done working, I was quite shocked to turn to American Family Radio and hear a song which was singing the Apostle's Creed.

I know Rose knows part of what is coming here. . .good Lutheran artists:
Lost And Found (www.speedwood.com (http://www.speedwood.com)) Of course ;) :blush:
Agape [Dave Scherer] (www.hiphopoutreach.com (http://www.hiphopoutreach.com))
Echelon (www.echelonministries.com (http://www.echelonministries.com))

And I'm not certain, but I think one of the members of Daniel's Window (www.danielswindow (http://www.danielswindow)) is Lutheran.

Others I like, but may not be liked by the typical "younger" generation
Ken Medema
Marty Haugen


What we need are Lutheran artists but it seems to we tend to discourage our young musicians with this constant crticism of contemporary Christian music

Yeah, no kidding. . .all ya gotta do is look anywhere on CF when I mention contemporary Christian music. . and I'm one that absolutely LOVES hymns. .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Rechtgläubig]

Yeah, no kidding. . .all ya gotta do is look anywhere on CF when I mention contemporary Christian music.

Look she said it again!

::grabs pitchfork::

After her!

:D

[KagomeShuko]

Look she said it again!

::grabs pitchfork::

After her!

:D
Ack! *runs* :D *ducks and dives* Nyah! Nyah! LOL :P

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[SPALATIN]

Bridget, Luthers Rose et al

Please understand that I used to be a CCM disc jockey about 15 years ago. Since then I have poked my head into the curtain to see what is happening in that scene. there are some performers that I still enjoy listening to every now and again. I like Michael W. Smith and Steven Curtis Chapman. Used to like Steve Taylor (Meltdown at Madame Tussaud's) and Amy Grant was also one of my faves.

Since I have been out of it though I no longer desire to be anywhere near it. If I had the opportunity to get back into Radio, I would do a show much like KFUO's Issues Etcetera. Christian music is entertaining for some, but I do not feel that any of it belongs in a church service. Church is not for entertaining the congregation but for them to gather together under one roof and proclaim Christ the King and receive the blessings through the word and sacrament. I will just say that Contemporary or Modern Praise and Worship is not for me.

[ByzantineDixie]

Bridget, Luthers Rose et al

Please understand that I used to be a CCM disc jockey about 15 years ago. Since then I have poked my head into the curtain to see what is happening in that scene. there are some performers that I still enjoy listening to every now and again. I like Michael W. Smith and Steven Curtis Chapman. Used to like Steve Taylor (Meltdown at Madame Tussaud's) and Amy Grant was also one of my faves.

Since I have been out of it though I no longer desire to be anywhere near it. If I had the opportunity to get back into Radio, I would do a show much like KFUO's Issues Etcetera. Christian music is entertaining for some, but I do not feel that any of it belongs in a church service. Church is not for entertaining the congregation but for them to gather together under one roof and proclaim Christ the King and receive the blessings through the word and sacrament. I will just say that Contemporary or Modern Praise and Worship is not for me.

But Scott...please also understand my points.

1) I am not suggesting these songs belong in worship...in fact I specifically discussed "in the car, on the train, in the plane and at home".

2) I am also saying that some "praise" songs may be just fine in the context of my theology. I recognize my sinfulness (as best I can) and the fact that I fully deserve eternal damnation for my inability to satisfy the Law. However, by the faith that has been given to me through grace in my Baptism in the name of the Triune God, I can see that Jesus is my Savior. That he took upon Himself my filth and vile sins. And that for these He died. But by His resurrection He conquered sin and brings me out of the pit of damnation and joins me with Him and all other believers of all time...joins us together in Word and Sacrament...in His Body and Blood and through this I am given life.
Ah...now I want to sing a praise song! :clap:

You are more than entitled to push all contemporary Christian music out of your life--it is completely up to you. BUT, in Christian liberty, I am more than welcome to enjoy music which does not violate the articles of the Christian faith. And in the context of this faith I have been given these songs are not invalid and are not expressing the Theology of Glory. That was my point...context.

Or...are you saying the theology of the artist drives whether or not the songs are Christian and should be received by us? (YIKES!!! What are we going to do with all those hymns written by non-Lutherans in our Lutheran hymnal????)

Again...to keep some clarity in the discussion...I am not talking about songs with obvious theological error like those promoting decision theology. Don't get frustrated yet, Scott...this has been a good debate.

Speaking of...where in the heck is the OP weighing in on this topic anyway. He throws out the bait and hides? :P

Peace

Rose

[SPALATIN]

But Scott...please also understand my points.

1) I am not suggesting these songs belong in worship...in fact I specifically discussed "in the car, on the train, in the plane and at home".

2) I am also saying that some "praise" songs may be just fine in the context of my theology. I recognize my sinfulness (as best I can) and the fact that I fully deserve eternal damnation for my inability to satisfy the Law. However, by the faith that has been given to me through grace in my Baptism in the name of the Triune God, I can see that Jesus is my Savior. That he took upon Himself my filth and vile sins. And that for these He died. But by His resurrection He conquered sin and brings me out of the pit of damnation and joins me with Him and all other believers of all time...joins us together in Word and Sacrament...in His Body and Blood and through this I am given life.
Ah...now I want to sing a praise song! :clap:

You are more than entitled to push all contemporary Christian music out of your life--it is completely up to you. BUT, in Christian liberty, I am more than welcome to enjoy music which does not violate the articles of the Christian faith. And in the context of this faith I have been given these songs are not invalid and are not expressing the Theology of Glory. That was my point...context.

Or...are you saying the theology of the artist drives whether or not the songs are Christian and should be received by us? (YIKES!!! What are we going to do with all those hymns written by non-Lutherans in our Lutheran hymnal????)

Again...to keep some clarity in the discussion...I am not talking about songs with obvious theological error like those promoting decision theology. Don't get frustrated yet, Scott...this has been a good debate.

Speaking of...where in the heck is the OP weighing in on this topic anyway. He throws out the bait and hides? :P

Peace

Rose

In the spirit of Christian Liberty, anyone that wants to listen to CCM has the right to and I wouldn't object.

As for ChiRho, he probably has read our debate and sat back laughing that we would get so heated about such a topic.

[ByzantineDixie]

As for ChiRho, he probably has read our debate and sat back laughing that we would get so heated about such a topic.

Well, then he would laughing for nothing...because I sure am not heated up about this. I have enjoyed the volleys immensely. I wouldn't have minded the opportunity to pitch a few his way as well, though! :D

Peace, y'all.

Rose

[Lutherrunner]

Again...to keep some clarity in the discussion...I am not talking about songs with obvious theological error like those promoting decision theology. Don't get frustrated yet, Scott...this has been a good debate.

Speaking of...where in the heck is the OP weighing in on this topic anyway. He throws out the bait and hides? :P

Peace

Rose

now what is decision theology again?.....and what might an example lyric be?....sorry, I'm still trying to assimilate all of these terms.....and what is OP?

Y'all use too many acronyms.......:scratch:

[filosofer]

now what is decision theology again?.....and what might an example lyric be?....sorry, I'm still trying to assimilate all of these terms.....and what is OP?


Decision theology: emphasis is on the person making the decision to believe ("come to faith"). In essence it says Jesus did the work on the cross, I must do the work of believing.

Example: "I have decided to follow Jesus"

OP = Original Post

[Phoebe]

Ahhh I get such warm fuzzies. This song takes me back to the day that I decided that I would make Jesus my Lord and Savior! Yay for me! ::pats own back:: Best choice I ever made!

:clap: :D :amen:

ROTFLOL!!!
Too funny, Retch.


I find the lyrics quoted to be a bit weak sounding. Other than that, I don't have much of an opinion about it.

[pastel]

Bridget, Luthers Rose et al

Please understand that I used to be a CCM disc jockey about 15 years ago. Since then I have poked my head into the curtain to see what is happening in that scene. there are some performers that I still enjoy listening to every now and again. I like Michael W. Smith and Steven Curtis Chapman. Used to like Steve Taylor (Meltdown at Madame Tussaud's) and Amy Grant was also one of my faves.

Since I have been out of it though I no longer desire to be anywhere near it. If I had the opportunity to get back into Radio, I would do a show much like KFUO's Issues Etcetera. Christian music is entertaining for some, but I do not feel that any of it belongs in a church service. Church is not for entertaining the congregation but for them to gather together under one roof and proclaim Christ the King and receive the blessings through the word and sacrament. I will just say that Contemporary or Modern Praise and Worship is not for me.

I pretty much feel this same way too. I have some CDs of Michael W. Smith that we enjoy on the family stereo. We avoid the contemporary or modern praise "worship" services at our church altogether. A lot of families stay away on those Sundays as well. One Sunday we had our greeters duty, and the church was 2/3rds empty that day. You would think they would get the hint!

"We vote with our feet."
:sorry:

[KagomeShuko]

I pretty much feel this same way too. I have some CDs of Michael W. Smith that we enjoy on the family stereo. We avoid the contemporary or modern praise "worship" services at our church altogether. A lot of families stay away on those Sundays as well. One Sunday we had our greeters duty, and the church was 2/3rds empty that day. You would think they would get the hint!

"We vote with our feet."
:sorry:
Yes, I love listening to CCM, but not using CCM in a worship service. . .although, the life a youth minister. . .ya know. . .gotta keep up with those kids!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[pastel]

Yes, I love listening to CCM, but not using CCM in a worship service. . .although, the life a youth minister. . .ya know. . .gotta keep up with those kids!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

A youth minister! You have my condolences!! :help:

[Lutherrunner]

Decision theology: emphasis is on the person making the decision to believe ("come to faith"). In essence it says Jesus did the work on the cross, I must do the work of believing.

Example: "I have decided to follow Jesus"

OP = Original Post



Ok, I kinda get it, but you gotta give me an example of the opposite of decision theology.......what happens to Lutherans?...how do Lutherans believe it happens?

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, I kinda get it, but you gotta give me an example of the opposite of decision theology.......what happens to Lutherans?...how do Lutherans believe it happens?
Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Free Will

3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8, 21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8, 7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2, 5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.

4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1, 16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10, 17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95, 8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16, 14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15, 5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1, 29; 2 Cor. 12, 5; Jer. 9, 23.

[Lutherrunner]

Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Free Will

3] 2. Likewise we believe, teach, and confess that the unregenerate will of man is not only turned away from God, but also has become an enemy of God, so that it only has an inclination and desire for that which is evil and contrary to God, as it is written Gen. 8, 21: The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Also Rom. 8, 7: The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be. Yea, as little as a dead body can quicken itself to bodily, earthly life, so little can man, who by sin is spiritually dead, raise himself to spiritual life, as it is written Eph. 2, 5: Even when we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ; 2 Cor. 3, 5: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything good as of ourselves, but that we are sufficient is of God.

4] 3. God the Holy Ghost, however, does not effect conversion without means, but uses for this purpose the preaching and hearing of God's Word, as it is written Rom. 1, 16: The Gospel is the power of God 5] unto salvation to every one that believeth. Also Rom. 10, 17: Faith cometh by hearing of the Word of God. And it is God's will that His Word should be heard, and that man's ears should not be closed. Ps. 95, 8. With this Word the Holy Ghost is present, and opens hearts, so that they, as Lydia in Acts 16, 14, are attentive to it, and are thus converted alone through the grace and power of the Holy Ghost, whose 6] work alone the conversion of man is. For without His grace, and if He do not grant the increase, our willing and running, our planting, sowing, and watering, all are nothing, as Christ says John 15, 5: Without Me ye can do nothing. With these brief words He denies to the free will its powers, and ascribes everything to God's grace, in order that no one may boast before God. 1 Cor. 1, 29; 2 Cor. 12, 5; Jer. 9, 23.

Ok, I kinda get it, but put it in you own and simple words and tell me if what we believe is different than the fundies and their "born again" beliefs....thanks

[KagomeShuko]

A youth minister! You have my condolences!! :help:
Aw, really, I love it! It's much better following God's will than my own. . .if I had tried following my own, rather than working at church and living with my parents and volunteering time to be a youth minister, I'd probably be one of those failing staving free-lance writers!

I'll take this life over that any day!

I love the kids to whom I am a minister (the majority don't even go to my church! It's kind of an odd situation, but it works. . .)

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Rechtgläubig]

Ok, I kinda get it, but put it in you own and simple words and tell me if what we believe is different than the fundies and their "born again" beliefs....thanks
Simpleton, is my middle name! :D Recht simpleton gläubig. :wave:


Fallen man is an enemy of God and is spiritually dead. Just like in our natural birth, we don't choose to become born spiritually, it is something that is done to us. We can not choose to believe, Faith is a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit, it is not a decision or a choice.

Decision theology, turns Faith (believing) into a boastable work (NO BOASTING! Ephesians 2:8-10) and it makes Christ's Atonement incomplete:

"Arminians nevertheless makes Christ’s death merely that which made salvation possible. “It is finished!” must change into “It is possible, if only you make your decision for Christ!” Faith does not receive the accomplished fact of redemption. In the Arminian equation faith establishes the fact of redemption – it isn’t true until and unless I believe it." (Dr D.)


English speaking Lutherans are at a disadvantage and I will stop now before I begin a rant, complete with Deutschlander quotes ;) , about that too...

[KagomeShuko]

Ok, I kinda get it, but put it in you own and simple words and tell me if what we believe is different than the fundies and their "born again" beliefs....thanks
Recht always does a better job than I do. . . but I'll give it a try. Recht, if I mess this up (again, of course) please forgive me! :bow: I can never seem to put this to words correctly!

Our free will is always against God and we want to sin. . .that's just man's nature. Salvation and faith are a gift - and they are a gift that we can't even "accept" ourselves. The only thing we can really do is "surrender" to the fact that they are there. . it is not our choice. . .

It's reject or surrender. . .however, there is no "acceptance." We can only rejoice that the Lord gave us such a wonderful gift. . .it is none of our doing. . not even our own belief. . .it is ALL from God!

(I sure hope I did better this time. . .I'm not very good at putting this into words! :help: )

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

English speaking Lutherans are at a disadvantage and I will stop now before I begin a rant, complete with Deutschlander quotes ;) , about that too...

What would TCCL be without you and your Deutschlander quote rants?

LOL

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Rechtgläubig]

What would TCCL be without you and your Deutschlander quote rants?

LOL

Stein Auf!
Bridget

A kinder, gentler, and happier place?

:D

[Rechtgläubig]

Recht always does a better job than I do. . . but I'll give it a try. Recht, if I mess this up (again, of course) please forgive me! :bow: I can never seem to put this to words correctly!

You know, now because of that I gotta feel bad for chewing you out... Thanks!

Our free will is always against God and we want to sin. . .that's just man's nature. Salvation and faith are a gift - and they are a gift that we can't even "accept" ourselves. The only thing we can really do is "surrender" to the fact that they are there. . it is not our choice. . .

It's reject or surrender. . .however, there is no "acceptance." We can only rejoice that the Lord gave us such a wonderful gift. . .it is none of our doing. . not even our own belief. . .it is ALL from God!

(I sure hope I did better this time. . .I'm not very good at putting this into words! :help: )

Stein Auf!
Bridget

...I'm teasing, but to get back on track, and please, I am no authority on the subject, but I would even shy away from using terms like you must "surrender". Maybe it is because I live in the heartland of Arminianism and a little paranoid, maybe it is too much Dr. D... :confused:

I simply like saying we are saved because Faith is God's gift to undeserving man. The entire work of Justification is God's doing. "Believing" is God's work not ours.


"Hey sinner, Jesus paid for your sins and I know that because He died for everybody's."

"Wow Really?"

"Yeah, welcome aboard, brother. Want to talk more about it?"

"Sure!"



just my 0.02 :sorry:

[Lutherrunner]

Recht always does a better job than I do. . . but I'll give it a try. Recht, if I mess this up (again, of course) please forgive me! :bow: I can never seem to put this to words correctly!

Our free will is always against God and we want to sin. . .that's just man's nature. Salvation and faith are a gift - and they are a gift that we can't even "accept" ourselves. The only thing we can really do is "surrender" to the fact that they are there. . it is not our choice. . .

It's reject or surrender. . .however, there is no "acceptance." We can only rejoice that the Lord gave us such a wonderful gift. . .it is none of our doing. . not even our own belief. . .it is ALL from God!

(I sure hope I did better this time. . .I'm not very good at putting this into words! :help: )

Stein Auf!
Bridget

ok, bear with me....a lot of the "pop" fundie phrases bother me, and I never really tried to figure it out.....and I guess now I am.....I am over 50 and have been lifelong Lutheran so I haven't really compared and contrasted my beliefs to others, so I haven't really tried to dissest the semantics until I found this forum....so when they say things like "accept Jesus as your personal savior", that sounds odd to me....and "get right with God", "born again", etc.....and the altar calls....that sounds like what you guys are calling decision theology?

(by the way Bridget, if you like youth ministry and you want a part time job, get your commercial drivers license and drive a school bus!.....I did that for 5 years and it really kept me "in touch" with the mindset of youth!......aiye aiye aiye!)

[Rechtgläubig]

"Hey sinner, Jesus paid for your sins and I know that because He died for everybody's."

"Wow Really?"

"Yeah, welcome aboard, brother. Want to talk more about it?"

"Sure!"

Or how's this:

"Precious infant [insert name here], I Baptize you in the name of the Father... Son... and Holy Spirit..."

[Rechtgläubig]

so when they say things like "accept Jesus as your personal savior", that sounds odd to me....and "get right with God", "born again", etc.....and the altar calls....that sounds like what you guys are calling decision theology?

You got it!

:thumbsup:


Don't forget the "sinner's prayer".


Well, not always "born again"... context decides that one.

[KagomeShuko]

You know, now because of that I gotta feel bad for chewing you out... Thanks!



...I'm teasing, but to get back on track, and please, I am no authority on the subject, but I would even shy away from using terms like you must "surrender". Maybe it is because I live in the heartland of Arminianism and a little paranoid, maybe it is too much Dr. D... :confused:

I simply like saying we are saved because Faith is God's gift to undeserving man. The entire work of Justification is God's doing. "Believing" is God's work not ours.


"Hey sinner, Jesus paid for your sins and I know that because He died for everybody's."

"Wow Really?"

"Yeah, welcome aboard, brother. Want to talk more about it?"

"Sure!"



just my 0.02 :sorry:
Everybody here seems to be a Baptist or a Catholic. . .so I guess "surrender" isn't really said, so it's not a big deal. . .just like, "okay, it's not something we can do. . ."

Same thought, I think. . .yeah, English is just a bit limited on the words we can use to describe that. . .nothing to really accurately say!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

You got it!

:thumbsup:


Don't forget the "sinner's prayer".


Well, not always "born again"... context decides that one.

Altar calls, "get right with God," "sinner's prayer," "accept Jesus"

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

it's all about what Jesus did and what God does. . .not us!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Phoebe]

Another way of putting it...

The Holy Spirit enables us to choose the good. The Holy Spirit does this work, not us. We, on our own, can only choose the evil/ reject the good.

Think of Adam and Eve. What did God see at the end of each day during creation? "And God saw that it was good." Adam and Eve had nothing but good in the beginning of their lives. However, because of Satan, they rejected the good when they ate of a certain tree. They rejected God and His one commandment. It was a power struggle, much like that between adolescents and their parents. We feel the need to have some kind of control over our own lives. We want to assert our independence.
When we 'allow' (which is also a work of the Spirit) our children to be baptized, it is not our child's work that saves them. It is the God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit performing this work. Should we deny the good for our child?

[KagomeShuko]

(by the way Bridget, if you like youth ministry and you want a part time job, get your commercial drivers license and drive a school bus!.....I did that for 5 years and it really kept me "in touch" with the mindset of youth!......aiye aiye aiye!)

You do NOT want me driving a school bus! I'll stick with my little truck.

I hang out with youth and youth ministers the most, so I tend to stay in touch with the youth culutre pretty well. . .and being a kid at heart helps!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Rechtgläubig]

English is just a bit limited on the words we can use to describe that. . .nothing to really accurately say!


Oh, what I meant about that earlier was that although a word can be translated from one language to another, it doesn't always carry the exact meaning. A Good example is English vs. German. Luther had a lot of influence on the German language, the Reformed on English. Maybe this will help convey what I am trying to say more clearly:


"The words Glaube and glauben have a much more precise meaning in German than do the English equivalents. In common English usage the words “to believe,” and “faith” are used as synonym for “to feel,” “to have an opinion,” “to hope,” all of these with or without any reason or basis in fact. Thus, for example, the mother of the confessed ax murderer is heard to say outside of the courtroom: “But I still believe that he is innocent and a good boy;” or the soap opera heroine says to the victim of some unimaginable disaster: “You’ve just got to have faith!” In both examples, faith/to believe are used with total indifference to facts, evidence, any reason or basis, to the point that faith and facts, faith and history virtually become opposites. Orthodox German Lutheran writers never use Glaube/glauben that way. In orthodox German Lutheran usage these words are rooted in facts, in history, in knowledge. In English someone may ask the question: Why do you believe that? and get the answer: That’s just the way I feel about it. In German glauben would not be used that way. If we accept St. Augustine’s definition of faith as “scientia, assentia, fiducia,” the German emphasizes scientia and the English fiducia. almost to the exclusion of scientia. For the Lutheran pastor the point is an extremely important one: if in his speaking and preaching and writing he uses the words “faith” and “believe” in a German (as well as Latin and Greek) sense, but his hearers understand him in an English sense, he may unintentionally mislead his audience. What does the speaker mean and what does the hearer understand by the sentence: “All you’ve got to do is believe and have faith.” If the speaker is a good Lutheran (though a sloppy speaker), he means: “Jesus really did come and die for the sins of the world, and therefore for your sins; his payment is an accomplished fact, and your forgiveness was won by Him alone; through this message God bids you trust in this accomplished fact as it applies to you.” If the speaker is careless and does not explain himself, the hearer may understand something quite different: “I’m supposed to decide that everything is OK–if I decide that, it’s true; if I decide the opposite, then that’s true, and if someone else decides a third thing, then that’s true for him; thus Christianity is a feeling that everything will work out right as long as I believe it, and I can believe what I want, as long as I believe something.”

(Deutschlander, Ein Kleines Theologisches Wörterbuch


I have seen the same situations pop up reading various exgesis of Greek or Hebrew passages as well.

[Lutherrunner]

what is the sinner's prayer?.....or should I already know that?

[Rechtgläubig]

what is the sinner's prayer?.....or should I already know that?

YOU DON'T KNOW IT???? :P

Quick repeate this...

"Dear Lord, I know I have done wrong and need forgiveness. Thank you for dying for my sins and for offering me eternal life. Please forgive my sins and help me to turn from them. I now confess you as my Lord and receive you as my Savior. Take control of my life and make it full and meaningful. In Jesus' name, Amen"


...whew, that was a close one. :D

[Phoebe]

what is the sinner's prayer?.....or should I already know that?

You don't watch enough TV.
;) :D

[KagomeShuko]

Oh, what I meant about that earlier was that although a word can be translated from one language to another, it doesn't always carry the exact meaning. A Good example is English vs. German. Luther had a lot of influence on the German language, the Reformed on English. Maybe this will help convey what I am trying to say more clearly:



I have seen the same situations pop up reading various exgesis of Greek or Hebrew passages as well.
Yeah, I get it. . .there are some things like this in French, too. . .I just can't think of a concrete example at the moment. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Lutherrunner]

OK, now you're just playin' with me!.....so it's a fundie thing?

[KagomeShuko]

YOU DON'T KNOW IT???? :P

Quick repeate this...

"Dear Lord, I know I have done wrong and need forgiveness. Thank you for dying for my sins and for offering me eternal life. Please forgive my sins and help me to turn from them. I now confess you as my Lord and receive you as my Savior. Take control of my life and make it full and meaningful. In Jesus' name, Amen"


...whew, that was a close one. :D
As long as you don't start passing out tracts! :P

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

OK, now you're just playin' with me!.....so it's a fundie thing?
yeah. . .and Baptist, and SDA. ..and. .and. .but definitely not Lutheran!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Lutherrunner]

You don't watch enough TV.
;) :D

you mean like TV evangelists?......no I quickly turn the channel to something secular......;)

[Phoebe]

you mean like TV evangelists?......no I quickly turn the channel to something secular......;)


LOL!
As do I.

[Rechtgläubig]

OK, now you're just playin' with me!.....so it's a fundie thing?

When have I ever...??? :sorry:



lol

[KagomeShuko]

you mean like TV evangelists?......no I quickly turn the channel to something secular......;)
Me too . .unless I feel like mocking the way they preach. . .LOL. . .it's just fun to jump up and down and stuff. . .or mute the television and have no clue what they are saying and make up the weirdest thing possible. . .

My sister and I once did this with an episode of "Gundam Wing" and the whole episode somehow became about a bowl of cornflakes and milk. ..

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[WashedClean]

OK, I haven't read all responses, so maybe this is redundant. But doesn't it depend on who is singing the hymn/song? It matters what is in our heart. If Jesus is there, then this could be a Christian song.

I had never thought about the fact that Amazing Grace doesn't mention the cross, but it's very true. I would prefer that a song mentions Jesus or how we were saved, but if we know our stance with God, that's what matters. I don't think if one of God's children sang this song, He would reject the praise because it doesn't mention the cross.

That's why my favorite song is Worthy is the Lamb. No doubt that's Christian! ;)

[Rechtgläubig]

LOL! We used to do that to the Spanish channel, you know those soap operas...

^_^

[Rechtgläubig]

Lutherrunner, I found this:



"Step 1: God's Purpose: Peace and Life. God loves you and wants you to experience peace and life-- abundant and eternal.

Step 2: Our Problem: Separation. God created us in His own image to have an abundant life. He did not make us robots to automatically love and obey Him, but gave us a will and freedom of choice. We choseto disobey God and go our own willful way. We still make this choice today. This results in separation from God.

Step 3: God's Remedy: The Cross. Jesus Christ is the answer to this problem. He died on the cross and rose from the grave, paying the penalty for our sin and bridging the gap from God to man.


Step 4: Our Response: Receive Christ. We must trust Jesus Christ and receive Him by personal invitation.


How to receive Christ:
1. Admit your need (I am a sinner).
2. Be willing to turn from your sins (repent).
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave.
4. Through prayer, invite Jesus Christ to come in and control your life through the Holy Spirit (receive Him as Lord and Savior)."

[Lutherrunner]

so let me make this real simple and see if I got it right....

decision theology, fundies, say that you have to make the decison to accept Jesus.....(and it's usually this big emotional thing) where Lutherans believe that it is by God's grace that he gave us his only begotten Son to die for us and save us from our sins and the only way to screw it up is to "reject" that......so if a baby's mother dies and he is raised in the woods by wolves and doesn't have any language or exposure the real world and religion etc , then he is saved....but if he does run across a town, learns a language and studies up on things and then rejects Jesus, then he loses his salvation.....is that kinda how it works?

[Phoebe]

I would say the child's fate is unknown. We trust God to be merciful and just to such a person. (referring to the babe in the wood/ Mowgli)

[Rechtgläubig]

so let me make this real simple and see if I got it right....

decision theology, fundies, say that you have to make the decison to accept Jesus.....(and it's usually this big emotional thing) where Lutherans believe that it is by God's grace that he gave us his only begotten Son to die for us and save us from our sins and the only way to screw it up is to "reject" that......so if a baby's mother dies and he is raised in the woods by wolves and doesn't have any language or exposure the real world and religion etc , then he is saved....but if he does run across a town, learns a language and studies up on things and then rejects Jesus, then he loses his salvation.....is that kinda how it works?

It is almost time for me to run, so I will make it short...

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans 10-17)

The Holy Spirit has means that He works through. Word and Sacrament (Word + element).

[Rechtgläubig]

I would say the child's fate is unknown. We trust God to be merciful and just to such a person.

Just remember what trusting that He is Just means, repaying sin with death.


Wanted to mention that because it is usually used to imply the opposite...


Makes the whole Great Commission thing seem.... urgent...

[Jim47]

We have all at one time or another discussed what happens to a baby if it should die at birth before there is any chance at all for baptism. For discussions sake lets take 2 different examples.

The first baby is being born into a family of non believers who have no life what so ever with Christ and have never expressed fath or even prayed to God or acknowledged that there is God Almighty. Their baby dies at birth. Now even though there was little chance of this baby being baptised until sometime later in life when perhaps The Lord caused this child to come to faith. So what would you say are the chances that God would accept this child born to unbelievers into Heaven?

The second baby is born to devout believers from both parents, mother and father. They have prayed for this child even before its birth and that God would bless them with a healthy child that would grow up strong in its faith in God and in Jesus as its Savior, but this child also died at birth much to everones surprise and was never baptised. So would this childs fate be any different then the child born to the unbelievers? Why?

Please understand that this is all just for discussions sake as I know that we can not determine what is God's Will, and I hope that no one takes offence at this discussion.

[Rechtgläubig]

:holy:


Ich weiß nicht.

[pastel]

We have all at one time or another discussed what happens to a baby if it should die at birth before there is any chance at all for baptism. For discussions sake lets take 2 different examples.

The first baby is being born into a family of non believers who have no life what so ever with Christ and have never expressed fath or even prayed to God or acknowledged that there is God Almighty. Their baby dies at birth. Now even though there was little chance of this baby being baptised until sometime later in life when perhaps The Lord caused this child to come to faith. So what would you say are the chances that God would accept this child born to unbelievers into Heaven?

The second baby is born to devout believers from both parents, mother and father. They have prayed for this child even before its birth and that God would bless them with a healthy child that would grow up strong in its faith in God and in Jesus as its Savior, but this child also died at birth much to everones surprise and was never baptised. So would this childs fate be any different then the child born to the unbelievers? Why?

Please understand that this is all just for discussions sake as I know that we can not determine what is God's Will, and I hope that no one takes offence at this discussion.

God knows us all before birth. He knows the hearts of these children, and how these two children would have become, if they had lived. He knows everything. We must not forget that the LORD loves the unbelievers too.

Deuteronomy 10:5
"Only the LORD had a delight in they fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day."

[Jim47]

God knows us all before birth. He knows the hearts of these children, and how these two children would have become, if they had lived. He knows everything. We must not forget that the LORD loves the unbelievers too.

Deuteronomy 10:5
"Only the LORD had a delight in they fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day."

Great answer Charlene, and of course very true. I am hoping that others can offer more, as this is something I think is worthy of discussion.

Does anyone think that the fact that the child born to Godly parents that prayed for it even befroe its birth has anything to do with how God looks at it? What I am saying is, doesn't God hear all His childrens prayers? And if no one offered prayers for the child born to unbelievers wouldn't that mean something as well.

Is there any scripture that would shed some light on this?

[ByzantineDixie]

Great answer Charlene, and of course very true. I am hoping that others can offer more, as this is something I think is worthy of discussion.

Does anyone think that the fact that the child born to Godly parents that prayed for it even befroe its birth has anything to do with how God looks at it? What I am saying is, doesn't God hear all His childrens prayers? And if no one offered prayers for the child born to unbelievers wouldn't that mean something as well.

Is there any scripture that would shed some light on this?

Romans 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

The bottom line is we do not know. Anything at all we might say is sheer speculation. What we do know is that we can trust God to do the right thing...whatever that thing might be.

However Jim...to address your question...there is a part of me that can't discount the "being a member of the family" thing. God listens to the prayers of his people, the family of God.

I had a professor who explained it this way...if your son comes up to you and says he needs new shoes...and you can get them for him, you'll go buy him new shoes. However if the neighbor kid came by and asked for new shoes...well, you might send him home to ask his own father. Then again, you might have pity on him and buy him shoes, depending upon the situation.

For me, however, the easiest way to deal with this question is forego speculation and to just trust our God.

Peace

Rose

[KagomeShuko]

Yep, Jim, all I can do is just trust God. Certainly, God hears the prayers, but it's not either unborn child doing the praying. Most likely, there is somebody somewhere in the world praying for those not yet born.

We do not know the answer. All we can do is trust God.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Phoebe]

What's everyone's take on 1 Corinthians 7:14?

"For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy."

[Jim47]

What's everyone's take on 1 Corinthians 7:14?

"For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy."


I think its just God's way of giving us comfort that when we should marry an unbeliever that our children are still Holy.

[ChiRho]

What is the context that this song should be viewed in? The Album? The various radio stations that give it airplay? In the author's local church? In the denomination of the author? In the author's confession or faith?

I am not avoiding an answer...in fact, I think that my thoughts will be available for everyone in the Lutheran Hymnody section immediately following the conclusion of Pastor Bird's "Why Lutheran's Sing What They Sing"...which will be finished very soon. I promise. (I know, my timing isnt the greatest)

But come on, doesnt this make for great debate?

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[revjpw]

but it's not either unborn child doing the praying.

...and you know this because...


DaRev




Oh, and PS, Stein Auf!!

[KagomeShuko]

...and you know this because...


DaRev




Oh, and PS, Stein Auf!!
I dont' know it, honestly, it is what I would assume based upon the question being asked.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ByzantineDixie]

But come on, doesnt this make for great debate?



Uh....ya! But no thanks to you! :P

:hug: Rose

[KagomeShuko]

Uh....ya! But no thanks to you! :P

:hug: Rose
Leave it to Chi. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget