Deborah the judge

[JM]

I've seen Deborah used to give an example of O.T. women having a teaching office 'over a man.' What was her place in the Book of Judges?

[SumTinWong]

Judges 4:4-5 "Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel came up to her for judgment."

I do not know what you mean by what was her place in the book of judges. She was a judge, and apparently had great influence.

Judges 4:6-16 "She sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali and said to him, "Has not the LORD, the God of Israel, commanded you, 'Go, gather your men at Mount Tabor, taking 10,000 from the people of Naphtali and the people of Zebulun. 7 And I will draw out Sisera, the general of Jabin's army, to meet you by the river Kishon with his chariots and his troops, and I will give him into your hand'?" 8 Barak said to her, "If you will go with me, I will go, but if you will not go with me, I will not go." 9 And she said, "I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 And Barak called out Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh. And 10,000 men went up at his heels, and Deborah went up with him. 11 Now Heber the Kenite had separated from the Kenites, the descendants of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, and had pitched his tent as far away as the oak in Zaanannim, which is near Kedesh. 12 When Sisera was told that Barak the son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor, 13 Sisera called out all his chariots, 900 chariots of iron, and all the men who were with him, from Harosheth-hagoyim to the river Kishon. 14 And Deborah said to Barak, "Up! For this is the day in which the LORD has given Sisera into your hand. Does not the LORD go out before you?" So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with 10,000 men following him. 15 And the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army before Barak by the edge of the sword. And Sisera got down from his chariot and fled away on foot. 16 And Barak pursued the chariots and the army to Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not a man was left."

I don't know seems to me if not for her having the "stuff" the Lord's will would not have been done.

[JM]

I asked because she is often given by those who'd like to see women Pastors.

[SumTinWong]

I understood that part, I just did not understand the "what was her place" question. Her place was huge. :)

[JM]

I understood that part, I just did not understand the "what was her place" question. Her place was huge. :)

Do you believe Deborah's role is a good example for having women as Pastors?

[SumTinWong]

No, but I think it is a good example that they can be great judges! I am not by the way in favor of or against women being preachers. I have not looked into the matter enough to make a determination on it as of yet.

[ZiSunka]

Do you believe Deborah's role is a good example for having women as Pastors?

I think it shows that God thinks women are capable and allowable in leadership roles, even over men, yes. Judges were appointed by God, not by humans, and God chose a woman to lead men, and who are we to doubt God's decision. Paul evidently would not have agreed with God, but maybe we don't really interpret what he said correctly.

[theseed]

Wayne Grudem in his Systematic Theology offers some insightful interpretations.

In 1 Tim. 1.3, we read that Paul was writing to Ephesus, the location of Priscilla and Aquila (Acts 18.18-19, 21; 2 Tim. 4.19). The City had many educated women and men. However, Paul does not object for these reasons. He objects because of what happened in Genesis. He explains that it is the weakness of men rather than women, and so men should have the leadership role. This is what God established after the fall of Adam and Eve.

Also, we read that Priscilla helped instruct Apollos (Acts 18.24-26). And in 1 Cor. 11.5, they are allowed to prophecy.

So in 1 Cor. 14.33-36, Paul is not prohibiting the public speach of women, but denying them the oportunities to have congragational authority. He does not allow women to interpret/critique/judge prophecy. In short, women should have no authority to govern the church body.

So I don't think Deborah was performing the role of priests (interpreting Scripture).

[GreenEyedLady]

I think it shows that God thinks women are capable and allowable in leadership roles, even over men, yes. Judges were appointed by God, not by humans, and God chose a woman to lead men, and who are we to doubt God's decision. Paul evidently would not have agreed with God, but maybe we don't really interpret what he said correctly.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God inspired Paul.

[PaladinGirl]

Do you believe Deborah's role is a good example for having women as Pastors?

I do. :) I feel that women can be just as good pastors as men can be. Besides, who am I to say if someone is called by God to pastor a church or not?

[ZiSunka]

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.



God inspired Paul.



This passage is about the curse of Eve, and not about every woman who ever lived anyway. Most women are happy when their babies are born, not sorrowful, and conceiving them is a joy, not a sorrow. Women do have pain in child birth, but few say the pain is an unbearable curse. You are reading into this that every woman is especially cursed because of Eve, but that isn't true. I know it's the way some very fundamentalist preachers interpret this passage, but it isn't the truth.



Are you saying that women are to be ruled over by every man, not just their husbands, because although I would submit to my own husband, I feel no obligation at all to be ruled by anyone else's husband. If your husband came to my house and demanded that I submit to him, I would just laugh and ignore him. I don't see anything in the Bible that says women have to submit to all men, or any man other than the one they married. And how does this relate to what we are discussing anyway? The husband rules over the wife, but does that mean he rules over every woman and thus no woman can hold a position of leadership?

[Crazy Liz]

Besides, who am I to say if someone is called by God to pastor a church or not?

Under Baptist or Anabaptist polity, you certainly do have a say, if it is YOUR church the person claims to be called by God to pastor! :thumbsup:

BTW, Deborah also was not just called by God. Her wisdom and leadership ability were recognized by all the people who turned to her for help.

[theseed]

Under Baptist or Anabaptist polity, you certainly do have a say, if it is YOUR church the person claims to be called by God to pastor! :thumbsup:
Yes, there is a whole ordination process.

[Crazy Liz]

Yes, there is a whole ordination process.Not just an ordination process, but also a process by which a specific congregation calls its own pastor.

[Crazy Liz]

I'm not going to respond to the arguments from Genesis or Paul, since I think this thread is supposed to be about the precedent set by Deborah. Although I have views on these scriptures, I think to go that way would take this thread :topic:

[theseed]

Not just an ordination process, but also a process by which a specific congregation calls its own pastor.
Yes, they vote. Ordination makes the calling official though.

[theseed]

I'm not going to respond to the arguments from Genesis or Paul, since I think this thread is supposed to be about the precedent set by Deborah. Although I have views on these scriptures, I think to go that way would take this thread :topic:
And what precedant did she set?

[Crazy Liz]

And what precedant did she set?

I think the people's recognition of her ability to lead in particular ways is what is important. We Anabaptists, Baptists and Quakers all practice forms of congregational polity, which is "bottom-up." Like the OT judges, a person becomes a pastor, teacher or other kind of leader in our congregations on the basis of the respect of the people they lead.

This differs from a polity ruled by bishops, which is top-down, more like a monarchy. In churches of this type, a person is appointed to a position and has ascribed authority, rather than earned authority. The kings who reigned later in Israel's history were chosen by a prophet's anointing or by birth. The same was true of the Levitical priests. They ruled by right, whereas the judges ruled only by authority of the respect each one personally earned.

[theseed]

I think the people's recognition of her ability to lead in particular ways is what is important. We Anabaptists, Baptists and Quakers all practice forms of congregational polity, which is "bottom-up." Like the OT judges, a person becomes a pastor, teacher or other kind of leader in our congregations on the basis of the respect of the people they lead.

This differs from a polity ruled by bishops, which is top-down, more like a monarchy. In churches of this type, a person is appointed to a position and has ascribed authority, rather than earned authority. The kings who reigned later in Israel's history were chosen by a prophet's anointing or by birth. The same was true of the Levitical priests. They ruled by right, whereas the judges ruled only by authority of the respect each one personally earned.
Very good points. Israel was warned that they would have gotten an opressive King. King Solomon was oppressive.

[ZiSunka]

Yes, they vote. Ordination makes the calling official though.

A lot of times, a pastor has been ordained before he is called to pastor a particular church. Our pastor was ordained in at his home church, and was called to our church about 10 years later.

[JM]

I've never heard of women being Pastors of Baptist Churches and I live in Canada!

Does anyone have a women (Baptist) Pastor?

[SumTinWong]

I know of at least two churches in my area with women pastors, within thirty minutes of here.

[Gold Dragon]

I've never heard of women being Pastors of Baptist Churches and I live in Canada!

Does anyone have a women (Baptist) Pastor?

We had one but she retired. She was also the wife of a retired minister before she graduated from seminary and became our pastor for a few years.

I know of several other female Baptist pastors in the Chinese Baptist church circles here in Toronto. No senior pastors though and most of them are children's or youth pastors although most do preach on Sundays, as far as I know.

[SumTinWong]

The ones in this area are full blown ministers on Sunday and any other day they are called to preach. I know one of them, and she is a great lady. The other I do not know, but she stepped down recently because of health issues.