Baptism and the Lords Supper

[QuagDabPeg]

I read on wikipedia that the Salvation Army doesn't believe in baptism or the celebration of the Lord's Supper - why is that?

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Not entirely true. Below is basically what is done at my corps, so may not ring true for the rest.

We do not have communion as a regular part of worship. This has to do with the fact the SA started off as a ministry to those with addictions, particularly alcoholism, so serving something referred to as 'wine' would not have been appropriate for this situation. Our church does do communion on Easter, Christmas, and various Sundays throughout the year (such as Palm, Prayer Sundays, etc etc).

Water baptism is not seen as necessary for salvation, however most corps around me (mine included) have various Sundays set aside during the year for it - as they often have times during conferences and camps for it as well (we have a young adults camp coming up in March - there will be Baptisms on the sunday at the beach).

Anyone else wish to reply?

Sasch

[Abiel]

I read on wikipedia that the Salvation Army doesn't believe in baptism or the celebration of the Lord's Supper - why is that?


What the Salvation Army believes is that these are not essential to salvation, and we do not celebrate them within our meetings, but Salvationists are totally free to assess these sacrements at another church if they so wish.

http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/en/Library/factSheets/FAQ-23-Baptism+and+membership.htm

This link explains the history behind the baptism descision

http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk/en/Library/factSheets/FAQ-22-Communion.htm

This one explains how the position on communion came into being.

[Abiel]

Not entirely true. Below is basically what is done at my corps, so may not ring true for the rest.

We do not have communion as a regular part of worship. This has to do with the fact the SA started off as a ministry to those with addictions, particularly alcoholism, so serving something referred to as 'wine' would not have been appropriate for this situation. Our church does do communion on Easter, Christmas, and various Sundays throughout the year (such as Palm, Prayer Sundays, etc etc).

Water baptism is not seen as necessary for salvation, however most corps around me (mine included) have various Sundays set aside during the year for it - as they often have times during conferences and camps for it as well (we have a young adults camp coming up in March - there will be Baptisms on the sunday at the beach).

Anyone else wish to reply?

Sasch


In the UK this would not happen. Fellowship meals are increasingly common though.

[QuagDabPeg]

How does the SA church interpret the passages about baptism in the bible? Thanks for the info!

[Abiel]

'The Army Founders’ attitude to baptism was similar to that of Communion. They saw dangers that the rite could replace the reality of entering into a living relationship with Jesus, and so they decided that the Army would not practise adult baptism.' SA website. It is simply as already stated- that baptism is not essential to salvation, and further, that baptism itself, and any ceremony (including admitance to soldiership) is an outward sign of the interior change. Here in the UK we have a state church in the form of the Church of England, which virtually all British people consider themselves to be members of, and whose services they access (baptism, marriage, funerals) as a matter of course. There is a cultural belief that this is all that is needed to get you into heaven. This was so also in Victorian days- may be more so, as lots of people went to church as purely a social thing- it was just what you did.

So, whilst baptism is fine, The Salvation Army does not emphasis or practice it. We are a holiness movement, believing in a lifelong journey of discipleship, and instant heart transformation through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist said 'he will baptise with fire'-this is the baptism we focus on.

I have to say I am no expert in this, and there are much more qualified people out there. The bottom line is- all Salvos are free to be baptised, but no one is saved by baptism in water.

[TheDag]

This subject is always interesting to me as I grew up in a lutheran church and changed to an anglican church at about 21 years of age and then when I moved and got married I started going to a salvo church.
With this background communion was explained as part of a two year course and therfore does have significance to me and I really value the reminder of what God has done for me. In some churches I have noticed a lack of understanding as to what its about and thats when it can easily be turned into a ritual.
Abiel the link you provided about communion was very interesting reading. It probably needs to be worded better as it suggests one of the reasons that communion isn't held is the danger of it becoming a ritual. We all need to remember any part of any church service can become a ritual. I have often noticed this when it comes to singing. The words are on the screen and we often sing them without thinking and thus turn it into a ritual. Tho I doubt most churches would stop it if this happens.

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

That was a very good post up there Dag :)

And Abiel, thank you for very clear explanation, as well as the links!

I was baptised (I was raised pentecostal) when I was 8, and loved the day of symbolism. I don't remember thinking I HAD to do it to be saved, but just that it was a great public and symbolic gesture of my revoking the old life and following Jesus.

My bf was raised Lutheran (now attends SA with me), and so had infant baptism and confirmation. He does not feel the need to be baptised, and feels that his confirmation, as well as if he applies for adherency (he's thinking about it), are the kind of public declaration he'd like to share his faith in.

Both my corps and TheDag's corps are pretty contemporary and informal, compared with most other corps in our area. I think it's due to the demographic - most who attend mine (and I think all of the ones that attend his) would be under 30 now. Brisbane City Temple, along with Stafford and Carina corps, are far more traditional, and have a lot more members who would be around 50 and up, so push strongly for traditional symbols and 'rules' (ie about baptism and communion in particular) to be upheld.

Our corps/church don't actively pursue communion or baptism, but it is ALWAYS available to anyone who feels they need to or want to do it. When we had 40 Days of Purpose there was a baptism day, as there is at the end of Alpha classes. I think there's an option to have it done after one of our BETA classes too (BETA goes into things like mission, ministry, spiritual gifts, evangelising, membership, etc etc - you have to do at least the BETA class on membership (preferably all of them) before Adherency is allowed).

Sasch

[chaplainjared]

As far as i know the salvation army's leader people at headquarters couldnt agree on the importance of water baptism and therefore left the subject open so not to cause division. When i first came to the salvation army 3 yrs ago i thought it was a little strange, and i guess i still do... yes its not something you need for salvation, BUT even JESUS got baptised....i think that speaks something about the importance of it. My corp hasnt done a baptism in the time ive been there.

[chickette]

I've been at my chuch all my life and I don't think we have ever done a water baptisim. I go on another message board as well as this one and some of the people on there are like "YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTISED!" And I'm sorta feeling a bit clueless on how to explain it all cos I still don't understand it all myself!

[Abiel]

As far as i know the salvation army's leader people at headquarters couldnt agree on the importance of water baptism and therefore left the subject open so not to cause division. When i first came to the salvation army 3 yrs ago i thought it was a little strange, and i guess i still do... yes its not something you need for salvation, BUT even JESUS got baptised....i think that speaks something about the importance of it. My corp hasnt done a baptism in the time ive been there.


Jesus got baptised, but he didn't do any baptising. John baptised people (I think) who were unable to access the temple system, due to poverty, or uncleanliness, as a subversion of that system, and in readiness for the coming of Christ. I think.

I really am NO theologian.

[Abiel]

I've been at my chuch all my life and I don't think we have ever done a water baptisim. I go on another message board as well as this one and some of the people on there are like "YOU HAVE TO BE BAPTISED!" And I'm sorta feeling a bit clueless on how to explain it all cos I still don't understand it all myself!

Wading into a baptism thread(!) can be a bit difficult. I have been accused of being hell bound as a Salvationist. Then I offered up my infant baptism and confirmation- that wasn't enough for some people. It's an issue that people do feel very passionate about, and are often rather aggressive in defending their position. Women's ministry is another one which gets some people going- I am finding I really dont want to argue about these things any more. Just want to get on with my job.

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

You sound like the fun I'm having Abiel :) Keep asking that if you NEED baptism to be properly saved (and it to be done AFTER asking Jesus into your heart), where does that put Catholics and Lutherans. Unfortunately, noone really answers THAT question.

I think there are SOME verses in the Bible that by the tone they use, imply that you must be baptised - I think some have been read out of context, but there's some things John and Peter say later on in the Bible that imply you must be baptised to be saved, however I don't know how that lines up with the thief on the cross, and what Jesus said...

Sasch

[Andy Broadley]

Sascha just made a really good point that had never occured to me before. The thief on the cross was not baptised yet Christ assured him of Salvation. That's pretty conclusive as far as I'm concerned.


Also, is it not the case that all those who John baptised(including Christ) were all baptised as Jews and not as Christians. And John did say that although he baptised with water, the one who was to come (Jesus) would baptise with the spirit. This would appear to make the case that water baptism was not essential to the salvation process, and what was required was the baptism of the Spirit.

I also am no theologian, it's just the way it looks to me.....

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

That then begs the question, in the Salvation Army, what does Baptism in the Spirit mean? I know, having being raised in a pentecostal home, that that denomination states it comes with 'speaking in tongues', but I haven't heard the SA reflect such a stance. My personal belief is that speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift, not given to everyone, and if you aren't using them in accordance with 1 Cor 12-14, then you're in trouble! :P

I still have yet to see a SA statement on what their stance is on Baptism in the Spirit... Please feel free to let me know if you DO know of a statement!

Sasch

[Andy Broadley]

I'm not aware of one either. Again this is just a personal viewpoint, but for me, the baptism of the Spirit comes at the point where you make a personal decision to ask Jesus into your life on a permenant basis. At that point I consider myself to have been born again as a Christian, in the same way I would had I undergone a water baptism.


The theologians could probably rip this to shreds, but it's what I feel.

[Abiel]

Dont know of a statement. I think its a case of 'are you saved? if so then you are baptised in the spirit.' Gifts, I think are a different kettle of fish.

[Andy Broadley]

Tried putting fish in the kettle once....made the tea taste funny;)

[TheDag]

You sound like the fun I'm having Abiel :) Keep asking that if you NEED baptism to be properly saved (and it to be done AFTER asking Jesus into your heart), where does that put Catholics and Lutherans. Unfortunately, noone really answers THAT question.

Sasch

When I was younger I used to visit friends churches once a month and I was also involved in camps run by a non-denominational mission organisation. From my discusssions with people and the info sent to me by a baptist minister I have discovered something. Basically most denominations believe the same thing they just use different words for it. That is churches that practice infant baptism are doing the same thing as other churches who have dedication ceremonies for babies. Confirmation is the same thing as adult baptism in other churches. We just get caught up on the fact that different churches use different words.

As for baptism being neccesary for salvation the comments about the thief are relevant (although it is possible the thief could have been baptised when younger who knows). But if neccesary for salvation then that means we can do something to earn salvation ourselves and that does go against what the bible says.

[TheDag]

As far as i know the salvation army's leader people at headquarters couldnt agree on the importance of water baptism and therefore left the subject open so not to cause division. When i first came to the salvation army 3 yrs ago i thought it was a little strange, and i guess i still do... yes its not something you need for salvation, BUT even JESUS got baptised....i think that speaks something about the importance of it. My corp hasnt done a baptism in the time ive been there.

I could be wrong but my understanding is generally the SA states what it believes is neccesary to be a christian and also what commitment soldiers must make but for everything else they say isn't neccesary for salvation so form your own view and they'll be happy with that as long as you can back up your belief using the bible

[elm0]

I could be wrong but my understanding is generally the SA states what it believes is neccesary to be a christian and also what commitment soldiers must make but for everything else they say isn't neccesary for salvation so form your own view and they'll be happy with that as long as you can back up your belief using the bible

Good answer 0h Daggy 0ne. Pretty much what I was thinking while reading through this thread.

Having come from a Baptist background I can safely say that even the Baptist churches can't agree on the significance of water baptism, so I think it better to leave it up to individuals to study the Bible and reach their own conclusions.

P.S. Good to see you on here Dag :wave:

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

And I would agree with elm0 and The Dag as well - I'm an old baptist girl (went to Baptist from pentecostal at around 12, though still went to pentecostal-based (tho they called themselves 'non-dom') school) as well, and our Baptist church did baptisms, but there was no belief that it was essential for salvation (that I heard anyway) - it was just something they suggested as a 'public declaration'.

Sasch

[JoshuaCh1v9]

As the debate seems to still be ongoing (even at my wedding reception) I thought the thread was worth bumping