Traditional Names - are they still around

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Names like Citadel, Corps, Major/Officer - do you still use them?

We don't at our church/corps (North Brisbane Salvation Army). Reason being because of the demographic that attended, and the lifestyle of those who attended - it confused a lot of the populace as to whether we were a 'church' or not. We still maintain the teachings of the SA (and go to Officer Training College for 'Ordination'), but we have ministers, church, etc (although badges still say Major or Commanding Officer). The Brisbane City Temple is still very traditional - traditional names, uniforms, flags, etc..

What are your thoughts on the traditional names in the Army - are they still pertinent for today?

I guess our church is a little different, as I've said before. Having people come as part of compulsory rehabilitation means that we are little less 'formal' when it comes to traditions - it was too confusing to people just coming to the Christian Faith.

What are your thoughts?

Love Adherent Sasch

:D

[Andy Broadley]

While I can see the reasons for certain corps moving away from the quasi military terminology etc, I personally prefer the Army the way General Booth intended it to be. I'm all for moving with the times and adapting, but we must be very careful that we don't chuck out the baby with the bath water.


So for myself, I'd rather have the ranks and the terminolgy, and if that means spending time explaining that to people then so be it.

[Abiel]

So for myself, I'd rather have the ranks and the terminolgy, and if that means spending time explaining that to people then so be it.

Seconded. It is important that the words Church starts to appear more frequently on the outside of our buildings, but if we dont stay Army, there's not much point in existing...or is there?

[Abiel]

As recently appointed Envoy, I have to do my fair share of explaining. But in fact, it is often a way into conversation that then continues, grows and leads who knows where?

[Abiel]

I guess our church is a little different, as I've said before. Having people come as part of compulsory rehabilitation means that we are little less 'formal' when it comes to traditions - it was too confusing to people just coming to the Christian Faith.
:D

We use the tools at our disposal appropriate to each situation. That's sensible. In a situation where there may be a danger of a 'them' and 'us' mentality, informal could work best.

EG the main branches of my work are a)elderly- uniform lovers, I wear it. b) Salvo teenagers- it's uncool, but they need me to wear mine, so they can wear theirs if they want c) unchurched kids- so jeans and t-shirts (salvo ones) is the order of the day. d)Sundays- pastor hat on, uniform on.

so it goes.

[chaplainjared]

i see it like this - we are still an army regardless of what we change our names too.

what we need to make sure is that we are relevant to society....

I think general booth first intended the salvation army not only to be an army, but to be ACTIVELY saving souls, fired up and ready for the front line, and unfortunatly so many corps these days are not relevent enough to society to see ANY souls saved.

YES general booth created us to be an army, but there is no point talking or dressing like an army BUT not ACTING like one... (then we would simply be good actors)..

I feel General booth would weep if he saw how parts of the Salvation Army has become today.

The salvation army exists to see the salvation of the entire world... its never going to happen if we - 1. are not relevant to society 2. if we put our politics about names and uniforms etc before what god has called us to be...

The question is will the Army be more relevent to the unsaved and see more souls saved if we changed our terminology to that of 'church, pastors' etc etc? If the ANSWER is YES then we all need to be doing it...
and im sure general booth would agree with me.

[Andy Broadley]

i see it like this - we are still an army regardless of what we change our names too.

I must disagree. If we change our name, dispense with the uniform, ranks, etc, we will not remain an Army.

what we need to make sure is that we are relevant to society....

I think general booth first intended the salvation army not only to be an army, but to be ACTIVELY saving souls, fired up and ready for the front line, and unfortunatly so many corps these days are not relevent enough to society to see ANY souls saved.


On your second point of ensuring that we are relevent to society today, I couldn't agree more. Where we will disagree is on how we do it. I also agree that General Booth's vision was for an Army actively saving souls and fired up for the front line, and that, in a great many corps, the people involved have lost their relevence, drive and fight. Far too many Salvationists are safely coccooned in the warmth of the Salvation Army country club, and neither dynamite, wild horses, nor orders & regs is going to drag them out to face the battle and fight as it is intended they should do.

Now I'm getting dangerously close to my favourite soap box subject now, so I'm gonna clam down before I upset a lot of people.




YES general booth created us to be an army, but there is no point talking or dressing like an army BUT not ACTING like one... (then we would simply be good actors)..

Again, I would not disagree with the basic truths of what you are saying. The point you make is valid and accurate, and can be witnessed every single week in hundreds os corps up and down this country alone.

It is in your ideas for putting this right, that I must disagree with. What you advocate is basically chucking out the baby with the bathwater. Not only would this fail to put things right, it would cause massive division, and ultimately the demise, of the Salvation Army.

The problem does not lie with the organisation of the Army. It does not lie with uniforms. It does not lie with rank, or terminology, or any of the several other things that folk like to blame the present stuation on.

The problem lies, as it always has done, with people. They are the cause of the lack of relevence that the Army suffers from today. Find a way to light a fire under the country club set, and the "nice conference/isn't that a nice WWJD wristband" set, and finally get people to realise once and for all that people are not going to just come to church, WE HAVE TO GO AND FIND THEM!

Now judging from some of the posts you younger Aussies have been putting up, I know I'm pretty much preaching to the choir here, so don't think that I'm having a dig at you guys 'cos I'm not.

But the uniforms work, the armour and our weapons work, the battle plan works. If the soldiers are substandard, do something about the soldiers, don't tear up the battle plan.

Not wearing uniform and calling ourselves something else will do nothing at all to solve the underlying problem. No uniforms will not make us relevent, it will only make us invisible.

I feel General booth would weep if he saw how parts of the Salvation Army has become today.

I agree

The salvation army exists to see the salvation of the entire world... its never going to happen if we - 1. are not relevant to society 2. if we put our politics about names and uniforms etc before what god has called us to be...

The failure large numbers of Salvationists to be Salvationists is not politics, it's a tragady. And uniforms, names etc. are PART of what God has called us to be.

The question is will the Army be more relevent to the unsaved and see more souls saved if we changed our terminology to that of 'church, pastors' etc etc? If the ANSWER is YES then we all need to be doing it...
and im sure general booth would agree with me.

However, the answer is a resounding NO, and I'm certain General Booth would agree with me on that.

[elm0]

Before I begin, let me just say that Sascha and I attend the same CORPS :D

Names like Citadel, Corps, Major/Officer - do you still use them?

Yes Sascha we do, even if you don't hear it all the time. ;)

We don't at our church/corps (North Brisbane Salvation Army). Reason being because of the demographic that attended, and the lifestyle of those who attended - it confused a lot of the populace as to whether we were a 'church' or not. We still maintain the teachings of the SA (and go to Officer Training College for 'Ordination'), but we have ministers, church, etc (although badges still say Major or Commanding Officer). The Brisbane City Temple is still very traditional - traditional names, uniforms, flags, etc..

Um, Sascha, Captain Staines (and others) quite often refer to our church as North Brisbane Corps, and I'm sure the people leading this Sunday were introduced as Majors Kev and Hev.

What are your thoughts on the traditional names in the Army - are they still pertinent for today?

I guess our church is a little different, as I've said before. Having people come as part of compulsory rehabilitation means that we are little less 'formal' when it comes to traditions - it was too confusing to people just coming to the Christian Faith.

It was confusing to me coming from a different church, but once someone explains the structure and reasoning behind the names I don't think its really that hard to understand. As someone said, it can be a great conversation starter.

P.S. Sascha, maybe I've seen it from a different view through being at a different Sunday service most weeks (last 6 weeks not included hehe), the night service is more laid back so maybe there's less mention of titles etc.

[Abiel]

[QUOTE=elm0]
I'm sure the people leading this Sunday were introduced as Majors Kev and Hev.
]

How cool! Rhyming Officers!

We had a Major Payne at Felixstowe Corps until recently!

[Abiel]

I must admit, no one has ever called me by my rank- though I sometimes get letters addressed to Envoy.

[elm0]

Hehe, Majors Kev and Hev's real names are actually Kevin and Heather, but the Aussie love for abbreviations (and laziness) strikes again.

I always wonder why abbreviation is such a long word?!

[Abiel]

Hehe, Majors Kev and Hev's real names are actually Kevin and Heather, but the Aussie love for abbreviations (and laziness) strikes again.

I always wonder why abbreviation is such a long word?!


Our Corps Officer is a Londoner- she would call her Hevver- so that abbreviation is very appropriate!

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

elm0 you were right about that (the titles, etc), however I would have to say that there is a major difference between when our CO (Peter) introduces them and (insert title here - don't know what he is - major or officer, etc) Head introduces them. Peter will occasionally mention 'corps', but the frequency of using 'church' and 'pastor' would be a bit more. I remember when I went to BETA, Peter was talking about it a lot - explaining terminology, and then why he's started saying church, minister, etc all the time. Mind you, with Paul as head of Young Adults, I think a few of those traditions will rise up a bit more with the older youth (and with Narelle and Russ there as well).

I think the man who introduced them on the weekend is a lot more 'traditional' than Peter - at least when I notice how each of them talk about church/corps work. Maybe that comes from background, but I'm not sure...

Sasch

[chaplainjared]

hmmmm. interesting discussion.....

[Evangelina]

Whooo... I've had a few of these discussions over the years. Here's a brief overview of some of my thoughts, and I hope I don't offend :)

First off, I'm not a born-and-bred Salvo. I came in from other denominations, as I'm sure many Salvos have. That means I'm not particularly attached, emotionally, to some of the 'traditional' aspects of the Salvation Army. But I grew up a Lutheran, and I do have a certain emotional attachment to some of the traditions I grew up with (which TSA don't practice, btw), that seemed to make communal worship more meaningful? real? to me. So I understand that sometimes it's hard to separate from traditions even if they're not something God really cares about (I doubt he minds that hardly any Lutheran churches seem to do a sung liturgy anymore! :) ).

Uniform. It used to identify us as an army. Now I think it just identifies us as having a uniform. Doesn't look anything like what a soldier would wear when going into battle (looks more like a security guard uniform). Change it to combat fatigues and you'll hear a very loud, resounding HALLELUJAH!!!!!! from me :D That's what we need to be - battle-ready!

Would we still be an army without our uniforms? TOO RIGHT. We're God's army, every christian who's willing to stand up for Christ and fight (often with him/herself) for the downtrodden and voiceless, for LOVE (that's what God is, after all).

I love being a part of the salvation army. I love the way the salvation army can show God's love and compassion to the world in a way that people really understand and feel, and appreciate. So many times I've had people talk to me about how much they've received from the sallies. Is that just based on terminology and uniforms? No way.

And one more point... I don't much care what the Booths, wonderful people though they were, had in mind when they started the salvation army. I care about what God had in mind, and what he has in mind today. All else is vanity.

[elm0]

elm0 you were right about that (the titles, etc), however I would have to say that there is a major difference between when our CO (Peter) introduces them and (insert title here - don't know what he is - major or officer, etc) Head introduces them. Peter will occasionally mention 'corps', but the frequency of using 'church' and 'pastor' would be a bit more. I remember when I went to BETA, Peter was talking about it a lot - explaining terminology, and then why he's started saying church, minister, etc all the time. Mind you, with Paul as head of Young Adults, I think a few of those traditions will rise up a bit more with the older youth (and with Narelle and Russ there as well).

I think the man who introduced them on the weekend is a lot more 'traditional' than Peter - at least when I notice how each of them talk about church/corps work. Maybe that comes from background, but I'm not sure...

Sasch

Good point Sasch, I hadn't noticed that. I'm glad our corps has such variety in the leadership team :) makes everyone feel more welcome seeing people with different levels of 'traditions' up front. (Hope that made sense)

[elm0]

Whooo... I've had a few of these discussions over the years. Here's a brief overview of some of my thoughts, and I hope I don't offend :)

I don't see why people would take offence, this is a forum after all, a place to share views.

Uniform. It used to identify us as an army. Now I think it just identifies us as having a uniform. Doesn't look anything like what a soldier would wear when going into battle (looks more like a security guard uniform). Change it to combat fatigues and you'll hear a very loud, resounding HALLELUJAH!!!!!! from me :D That's what we need to be - battle-ready!

I see the Salvation Army uniform as being battle fatigues. The idea of battle fatigues for most armies is that you are prepared for the terrain/climate you are in, and the SA uniform has been adapted from country to country to make it suitable. The difference between the SA and many military armies is that the combat fatigues in the SA are designed to make the wearer more visible, not to blend in.

Would we still be an army without our uniforms? TOO RIGHT. We're God's army, every christian who's willing to stand up for Christ and fight (often with him/herself) for the downtrodden and voiceless, for LOVE (that's what God is, after all).

Very true, an army without a uniform is still an army. But would the SA soldiers on the streets be as safe without their uniforms on?

I believe that God gave the uniform to the SA for many reasons, one being easy identification. With the background I come from, and from talking with other people who have spent time on the streets, I have come to realise how much respect a lot of people have for those they see in the uniform. It is an unspoken rule in many places I have been that if you see a Salvo in trouble, you help them out, and woe to them that intend harm to a Salvo.

I love being a part of the salvation army. I love the way the salvation army can show God's love and compassion to the world in a way that people really understand and feel, and appreciate. So many times I've had people talk to me about how much they've received from the sallies. Is that just based on terminology and uniforms? No way.

And one more point... I don't much care what the Booths, wonderful people though they were, had in mind when they started the salvation army. I care about what God had in mind, and what he has in mind today. All else is vanity.

I believe what the Booths 'had in mind' when they started the Army was what God put on their hearts.

[Andy Broadley]

I don't see why people would take offence, this is a forum after all, a place to share views.



I see the Salvation Army uniform as being battle fatigues. The idea of battle fatigues for most armies is that you are prepared for the terrain/climate you are in, and the SA uniform has been adapted from country to country to make it suitable. The difference between the SA and many military armies is that the combat fatigues in the SA are designed to make the wearer more visible, not to blend in.



Very true, an army without a uniform is still an army. But would the SA soldiers on the streets be as safe without their uniforms on?

I believe that God gave the uniform to the SA for many reasons, one being easy identification. With the background I come from, and from talking with other people who have spent time on the streets, I have come to realise how much respect a lot of people have for those they see in the uniform. It is an unspoken rule in many places I have been that if you see a Salvo in trouble, you help them out, and woe to them that intend harm to a Salvo.



I believe what the Booths 'had in mind' when they started the Army was what God put on their hearts.


I'm with Dion on this issue.:thumbsup:

[Abiel]

Very true, an army without a uniform is still an army. But would the SA soldiers on the streets be as safe without their uniforms on?

I believe that God gave the uniform to the SA for many reasons, one being easy identification. With the background I come from, and from talking with other people who have spent time on the streets, I have come to realise how much respect a lot of people have for those they see in the uniform. It is an unspoken rule in many places I have been that if you see a Salvo in trouble, you help them out, and woe to them that intend harm to a Salvo.



I believe what the Booths 'had in mind' when they started the Army was what God put on their hearts.

That is my experience. There are places I dare to venture in uniform that I wouldn't dare in civvies. Ok so I'm a bit feeble, but Praise God! He has given me a way to do it.

[elm0]

That's right, the SA uniform is sometimes better than a physical suit of armour!!

[Athanasian Creed]

(snip) I feel General booth would weep if he saw how parts of the Salvation Army has become today.

The salvation army exists to see the salvation of the entire world... (snip)

I agree 100% - it seems to me IMO that the Army has lost it's first love in many cases. It seems as if it's "look at the good work the Army is doing out on the frontlines rather than "look what JESUS is doing through the Army" It seems as if saving souls has taken a back seat to doing good works and it breaks my heart to see that as a former Salvationist !!!:cry:

May God rekindle the passion for souls within the Army at large that General Booth had because of his love first and foremost for the Saviour and secondarily for his fellow man. :prayer:


Ray :wave:

[Abiel]

Amen to that! And it is my testimony that it is happening here in the UK.

[Andy Broadley]

*bump*

[Andy Broadley]

Amen to that! And it is my testimony that it is happening here in the UK.

As Sergeant Major and Bandmaster of CyberCorps, I would second the sentiments of our Commanding Officer (and Home League sec), Envoy Abiel;)