Bible Baptism

[Jim Woodell]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:

[rural_preacher]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:

Public identification with Jesus Christ.



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[Andyman_1970]

Our baptism is a "spinoff" of the Jewish rite called a Mikvah - a ritual bath that one would take (for among other reasons) to symbolically show that one had repented and turned back to God. This is what John the Baptist was doing in the wilderness.

Notice what Paul does after his encounter with Jesus, he had repented and then he took a ritual bath - a mikvah.

Pre Jesus - when a Gentile wanted to convet to Judaism one of the rites they would perform was a mikvah, a public testimony that this Gentile has turned from his pagan gods, and turned towards (repent, which in the Hebrew is the word T'shuvah and means "to turn back") the One True God - Yahweh.

So for the early Christian church, Baptism was a symbol of one's "returning" or "turning back" to God via Jesus.

[Matthan]

Andyman, that was a wonderful, concise answer that says it all

Matthan <J><

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman, that was a wonderful, concise answer that says it all

Matthan <J><

Thanks for the props Matthan............ :thumbsup:

[Jim Woodell]

Our baptism is a "spinoff" of the Jewish rite called a Mikvah - a ritual bath that one would take (for among other reasons) to symbolically show that one had repented and turned back to God. This is what John the Baptist was doing in the wilderness.

Notice what Paul does after his encounter with Jesus, he had repented and then he took a ritual bath - a mikvah.

Pre Jesus - when a Gentile wanted to convet to Judaism one of the rites they would perform was a mikvah, a public testimony that this Gentile has turned from his pagan gods, and turned towards (repent, which in the Hebrew is the word T'shuvah and means "to turn back") the One True God - Yahweh.

So for the early Christian church, Baptism was a symbol of one's "returning" or "turning back" to God via Jesus.

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin?:confused: Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.:confused:

Just wondering still.

[rural_preacher]

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin?:confused: Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.:confused:

Just wondering still.

I'm just curious, Jim, after checking your profile and seeing that you are the pastor of a Church of Christ, are you here with a genuine question for Baptists or are you here to pick a fight about whether baptism is an essential part of salvation?


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[Andyman_1970]

I appreciate this insight, but how do you reconcile that understanding with Acts 2:38 that connects baptism with forgiveness of sin?:confused: Also it would seem that John's baptism that Apollos taught in Acts 18:24ff would have been sufficient in Ephesus if both John's baptism and the baptism commanded by Christ simply symbolized repentance and was a ritual bath.:confused:

Just wondering still.

Jim with all due respect, there is a thread on the Non Denom forum (which I'm sure you are well aware of) that I have more than commented on about the passage you cite.

Looking at the Scriptures in their ful context (cultural and historical) and taking into account that the authors of the Scritpures were either Jews or Gentiles that had converted to Judasim - the passage you cite in light of these considerations along with other passages fit perfectly into my orginal response to your question.

IMO for us to know Jesus—and thus God the Father and the Holy Spirit—more intimately - and thus know what the authors were truly saying, we must carefully assess our 21st-century culture and Western attitudes in relation to and in light of the 1st-century world of Jesus. We must immerse ourselves in the culture of Scripture and Jesus of Nazareth. And we must learn to "think Hebrew"—in the way that the original writers of the Text thought.

With all due respect Jim, seeing that you are Church of Christ, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that you hold is but one of many doctrines Church of Christ'ers hold that I fundamentally (and more importantly beleive the Bible) disagrees with.

Thanks for stopping in Jim, but to reflect rual preacher, I hope your not here causing trouble.

[Jim Woodell]

Jim with all due respect, there is a thread on the Non Denom forum (which I'm sure you are well aware of) that I have more than commented on about the passage you cite.

Looking at the Scriptures in their ful context (cultural and historical) and taking into account that the authors of the Scritpures were either Jews or Gentiles that had converted to Judasim - the passage you cite in light of these considerations along with other passages fit perfectly into my orginal response to your question.

IMO for us to know Jesus—and thus God the Father and the Holy Spirit—more intimately - and thus know what the authors were truly saying, we must carefully assess our 21st-century culture and Western attitudes in relation to and in light of the 1st-century world of Jesus. We must immerse ourselves in the culture of Scripture and Jesus of Nazareth. And we must learn to "think Hebrew"—in the way that the original writers of the Text thought.

With all due respect Jim, seeing that you are Church of Christ, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration that you hold is but one of many doctrines Church of Christ'ers hold that I fundamentally (and more importantly beleive the Bible) disagrees with.

Thanks for stopping in Jim, but to reflect rual preacher, I hope your not here causing trouble.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts concerning my original question. Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know. My question and observation was and is sincere.

It is interesting to see you refer to me as "Church of Christ," and "the doctrine of baptismal regeneration." I consider myself a Christian not a "Church of Christ." My desire is to know and understand the scriptures and follow God in what he teaches. I believe that regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit, not baptism, but I do believe God uses baptism in His plan for our salvation. WE are a long way from John 17:20-21 aren't we?

[TwinCrier]

Baptism is an act of obedience, and I have no problem with a church denying membership to those who are in open diobedience to the word of God. I truly doubt rather someone will be standing at the perly gates requesting baptismal certificates. There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

[CFoster]

Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know.
You asked a seemingly innocent question in your original post, then, when you got a few fish on the line, you set the hook with scriptures. To me that was in very poor taste. It would have been more forthright to give your misgivings about your question in the original post, not to mention gotten responses that would have been more appropriate for your real question. I have alot of respect for the men and women who post on this forum, and they will always be glad to try their best to answer a question using the Word of God. I would suggest being more upfront about your questions in the future.

[Rev Wayne]

There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

Never thought of it that way, I always thought of it as regeneration from the Spirit. But I saw somewhere else a comment that "the Spirit always responds to the blood," so it works.

[Andyman_1970]

Again, I appreciate your thoughts concerning my original question. Perhaps you have good reason to react as you have, I don't know. My question and observation was and is sincere.

If you question was sincere then I apologize for coming off defensive. If you really way to know what I believe I'll be more than happy to share with you - however this is the Baptist forum, I'm not going to get into a debate with you on this subject on this thread.

It is interesting to see you refer to me as "Church of Christ," and "the doctrine of baptismal regeneration." I consider myself a Christian not a "Church of Christ." My desire is to know and understand the scriptures and follow God in what he teaches. I believe that regeneration comes from the Holy Spirit, not baptism, but I do believe God uses baptism in His plan for our salvation.

I referred to you (with all due respect) as affiliated with the "Chruch of Christ"/Restoration movement - it's on your profile. Knowing that "Chruch of Christ" beleives in the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is why I made the statement I did, it was not a put down. BTW - the idea/thinking/doctrine that somehow baptism is connected to our salvation is known theologically as Baptismal Regeneration - again this is not a put down but a technical term if you will.

WE are a long way from John 17:20-21 aren't we?

Do you make this statement because of my defensiveness earlier or because we do not agree on the meaning of Baptism?

Forgive me for my tone earlier, but unfortunatly I have had experiences (both on here and in real life) with those who attend a "Church of Christ"/Restoration church who have asked me about this issuse only to "bushwack" me in a very confrontational way that did not reflect the passage you cite above in John.

Jim, if you looking for information, I'll be more than happy to share with you, but if you looking to "prove" or cite passages and assert I'm somehow wrong in my beliefs then thanks but no thanks..........I'm too tired of beating my head against that wall.

[mesue]

Jesus was baptised as a public testimony of His willingness to submit to His Father's will. He did this before He started His ministry.

I think that some churches require this for membership (and please don't confuse membership with attendance) because in baptism we are saying that we want to submitt to God's will. The church will know that your intentions for service are pure if you get baptised or have been baptised. At least, that is how I have had it explained to me.

[Jim Woodell]

Baptism is an act of obedience, and I have no problem with a church denying membership to those who are in open diobedience to the word of God. I truly doubt rather someone will be standing at the perly gates requesting baptismal certificates. There is no regeneration from water, only from the blood.

Neither do I think God will be checking baptismal certificates, but he will be checking the "book of life" (Heb. 12:23;Rev. 20:27).

Scripture says, "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power..." (2 Thess 1:8-9).

Also, though this is perhaps sematics, blood does not regenerate. It does cleanse us from sins (Heb. 9:22). The Holy Spirit regenerates (Romans 8:11).

:amen:

[ZiSunka]

Although I agree that baptism does not save, faith in Christ saves, there is something about baptism that cannot be ignored. It is a command from Christ for us to be baptized and to baptize other believers, so it is not disposable or dispensable. If we are believers and it is at all within our ability, we must be baptized.

And I can say as someone for whom there was a long time between faith and baptism (12 years!), I became a different person than I was before I was baptized. I did not expect to be different, but I am, and the Lord set me into my life's work, his calling, only after I got baptized. Before that, every ministry I try to perform was thwarted and frustrated. But after I was baptized, unsaved people could see a difference in me and they wanted to know what made that difference, and God repaired a lot of broken things in my heart (although he is still working on many more), and set me into a deeper connection with him than I ever knew before.

I had thought that baptism was merely a ceremonial washing before I was baptized, but now, I do think there is some regenerative property in keeping Christ's commandment. Obedience is essential and to be baptized is to obey. To refuse baptism is to be disobedient.

[JMandrell]

Baptism is a ceremony that has a huge meaning. Baptism is not required for salvation because when you are saved, you are baptized in the blood of the lamb. But what baptism is, it is a christian following Jesus's example by physically showing that your sins are washed away and that you are clean from sin thru salvation.

[Andyman_1970]

Jim Woodell,

I take it by your non-response to my last post that your intentions were something other than information gathering? :confused:

[Jim Woodell]

Jim Woodell,

I take it by your non-response to my last post that your intentions were something other than information gathering? :confused:

I take seriously the teaching of 2 Timothy 2:24, "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

With the responses I received from my questions and the obvious catergorizing of me as a "Church of Christer" who believes in "baptismal regeneration" I thought I would go elsewhere. You might look at my thread under the nondenominational category regarding freewill where I have tried to cloth my question in a different way, but it is still the same question: Do I have to do anything to be saved? It is preached that salvation is a free gift, but something must be done to accept the gift, so that's a work on man's part, but we are not saved by works, and on we go.

We are probably closer in our basic theology than you think. I do not believe we are saved by any meritorious work. God never owes us salvation because of anything we have done, NEVER. Jesus and Jesus alone is our saviour. He became sin for us so that we could be made righteous through him (2 Cor. 5:21).

Baptism is an issue that has not been resolved in the Christian community. My Baptist friends say that it is a work. When Baptist are leading someone to Christ you will ask the sinner to "invite Jesus into your heart." That is a work the sinner is doing, moreso than being baptized. In baptism a sinner surrenders himself to the hands of another to be lowered in water and brought up again. That is a work but it is the baptizer that is doing the work, not the person being baptized.

I am happy to continue this discussion and be challenged on anything that I think or write, but as one person said, "Are you on here to start trouble?" Trouble is not something that I am pursuing; a meaningful discussion is.

God bless, and thanks for asking and for the email.

jw

[Andyman_1970]

I take seriously the teaching of 2 Timothy 2:24, "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful."

As do I, I'll add John 13:34 to your passage also.

With the responses I received from my questions and the obvious catergorizing of me as a "Church of Christer" who believes in "baptismal regeneration" I thought I would go elsewhere.

It does say on your profile that you attend a Church of Chirst church, so that is not nessecarily a catergorization but what you identified yourself as. Knowing that those who attend Church of Christ churches believe that baptism saves (ie Baptismal Regeneration) and with your question regarding Acts 2:38 it appeared you were looking for a debate (since this is a Baptist forum and we do not hold that Baptism saves) - evidently appearances were wrong, for that I apologize and would ask for your forgiveness.

We are probably closer in our basic theology than you think. I do not believe we are saved by any meritorious work. God never owes us salvation because of anything we have done, NEVER. Jesus and Jesus alone is our saviour. He became sin for us so that we could be made righteous through him (2 Cor. 5:21).

I would argree here Jim. Sometimes I think that we tend to let matters that we differ on become an obstacles when dealing our brothers and sisters in the faith.

Unfortunately as I stated in my earlier post:

Forgive me for my tone earlier, but unfortunatly I have had experiences (both on here and in real life) with those who attend a "Church of Christ"/Restoration church who have asked me about this issuse only to "bushwack" me in a very confrontational way that did not reflect the passage you cite above in John.

This is a shame as in one instance the gentlemen I had a confrontation with (not here on CF) was what I would consider a friend and brother in the faith (in spite of our differences regarding Baptism) he however became quite judgemental and condemning in our discussion - so you can see why I am "gun shy".

Hopefully you and I can have a peaceful, mutually respectful, God honoring discussion and hopefully it will help heal the wounds I have regarding this issue.

Baptism is an issue that has not been resolved in the Christian community. My Baptist friends say that it is a work. When Baptist are leading someone to Christ you will ask the sinner to "invite Jesus into your heart." That is a work the sinner is doing, moreso than being baptized. In baptism a sinner surrenders himself to the hands of another to be lowered in water and brought up again. That is a work but it is the baptizer that is doing the work, not the person being baptized.

On this we disagree. You are more than welcome to believe what you like, that's your right.

I am happy to continue this discussion and be challenged on anything that I think or write, but as one person said, "Are you on here to start trouble?" Trouble is not something that I am pursuing; a meaningful discussion is.


As I said in my earlier post:

Jim, if you looking for information, I'll be more than happy to share with you, but if you looking to "prove" or cite passages and assert I'm somehow wrong in my beliefs then thanks but no thanks..........I'm too tired of beating my head against that wall.


If you have any questions for me I would be more than happy to answer them, but since this is a Baptist thread I do not wish to engage in a debate about who's right and who's wrong - if you want to know where I'm coming from I'd be more than happy to answer.

[Stinker]

Andyman_1970: I seldom look through these Denominational sections, and whenever I do, I have never before posted a comment.......before now.

Since you keep telling Wes that this is a Baptist section, and that he already has a section in which to post comments, are you no longer going to post in the non-denominational section?

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman_1970: I seldom look through these Denominational sections, and whenever I do, I have never before posted a comment.......before now.

Since you keep telling Wes that this is a Baptist section, and that he already has a section in which to post comments, are you no longer going to post in the non-denominational section?

I thought I was posting messages to Jim Woodell not Wes Woodell?

Anyway.........

The difference between the Baptist and the Non Denom forums is that every one on the Baptist thread shares fundamentally the same understanding of Baptism. However, on the Non Denom forum the beliefs can be varied as we have seen.

BTW - my icon is set at "Christian" and not Baptist, there is a reason for that. First and foremost I am a follower of Jesus, a disciple. I do attend and serve at a Southern Baptist congregation, however my fundamental identity as a follower if Jesus is not "Baptist" but as Christian (not that there's anything wrong with identifying one's self as Baptist) - as there are many other Non Denom and even Spirit Filled churches that, if I was looking for another church, I would consider attending and thus I consider myself somewhat of a "hybrid" and not exclusively "Baptist". (you'll also note I post in the SFPC forum regularly)

I do not, out of respect, post in the Restoration Movment sub-forum due to the difference in beliefs, I would not - also out of respect - not post in the OBOB (Catholic) forum. I also post in the SFPC forum, but out of respect I do not post in the WOF sub-forum. There are many Non Denom churches that I do however agree totally with their beliefs. So I hope you can see the difference between posting in the Non Denom forum and on your "home turf" as it were.

Jim (or Wes or whoever) came in asked a question and then after a few answers "set the hook" as one poster stated it. Jim and I went "back and fourth" and I PM'd him additionally about the matter. Jim made it known after our discussion he was looking for information, which I am more than happy to provide him or anyone.

Just as I would not post in the Restoration Movement forum and question your beliefs (out of respect), I asked that Jim extend the same courtesy to me - which if he's only looking for information would not have been an issue.

[Dmckay]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:A completely different purpose. This was posted earlier today on another thread assking about baptist views on Baptism and communion.

Not many people today realize that Baptism didn't start with John the Baptist. Baptism was used by the Jews whenever someone converted to Judaism. When John came on the scene call for a baptism of repentance it was a call for the Jews of Jesus' day to turn away or die to their life style of sin. In both cases, conversion to Judaism, baptism unto repentance the baptism (immersion) publically symbolized the individual's death and burial to their previous way of life, the coming out of the water symbolized the new life they were adopting. The public aspect to the baptism was inviting those who observed this act of commitment to observe and judge if the new life matched the commitment. A means of accountability to others if you will.

If you invite a Jewish friend to attend church services with you, and they attend, the family will be concerned. If the surrender their life to Christ the family may shun their family member. However, if that former Jew is baptized as a Christian, the Jewish familys have been known to hold a funeral service for their now dead family member. They recognize the commitment that Baptism represents as few Baptists do today.

Many have already pointed out to you that Jesus commanded the early believers in the Great Commission, "Going, make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe whatsoever things I have commanded you to." I believe that your response was He just said that to the Apostles. No there were more than the Apostles there. There were 120 present in the Upper Room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit as Jesus commanded before He ascended into heaven. Since Jesus had not yet sent the Holy Spirit, He certainly wasn't commanding those believers to practice baptism in the Holy Spirit. He was commanding that they immerse the new believers in the same manner that they were familiar with, with water as a symbol of the believers identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

How do I know? Because it is part of Paul's doctrinal teaching to the believers in Rome when Paul wrote to them almost 30 years later. Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I know Baptist ministers that baptize new converts right away. Almost like an old west gunfighter adding a new notch on their gun. Personally, I will only baptize a new believer when hey can explain to me what baptism means, both theologically and more importantly to them personally. If they don't understand, I won't baptize them.

[AJ]

I believe what Andy is referring to is this:

From the Forum Rules:
3) Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members (eg. Catholic,Charasmatic, Weselyan, Lutheran, etc... members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Baptist/Anabaptist doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members. Any debate posts by Non-Baptist/Anabaptist members will be deleted or moved to the appropriate forum. In other words, only Baptist/Anabaptist members can debate here.

Seeking information about Baptist doctrine is welcome and encouraged... Debating why you feel that your personal beliefs are correct and the doctrine of Baptist/Anabaptist is not scripturally based is basically what you are doing, under the cloak of "seeking information". I to believe that the course of your posting here started as a seeker of information about doctrine (that I would suspect you are already quite familar with given your history and education - noted in your profile)... But quickly turned into a "setting the hook" on why we are wrong and you are right.

[AJ]

To answer the original question... I believe that Baptism is an outward sign of the acceptance of Christ as my Lord and Savior. I do not believe that it is necessary for salvation, however I do agree with the doctrine of a "believers baptism"... I believe that Christ's instructions on this were clear... I also believe that the use of Baptism as one component of joining the membership of a church is sound doctrine.

Praise God!

AJ

[Crazy Liz]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:
A completely different purpose.

This is something Anabaptists and Baptists disagree about, JFYI.

[Andyman_1970]

Not many people today realize that Baptism didn't start with John the Baptist. Baptism was used by the Jews whenever someone converted to Judaism. When John came on the scene call for a baptism of repentance it was a call for the Jews of Jesus' day to turn away or die to their life style of sin. In both cases, conversion to Judaism, baptism unto repentance the baptism (immersion) publically symbolized the individual's death and burial to their previous way of life, the coming out of the water symbolized the new life they were adopting. The public aspect to the baptism was inviting those who observed this act of commitment to observe and judge if the new life matched the commitment. A means of accountability to others if you will.


Very well said :thumbsup:

The unfortunate thing is many who hold fast to the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration do not accept the historical aspect of John's Baptism and what a Jewish mikvah (cerimonial immersion) meant - if it's Jewish or outside the Bible it must be wrong.

Anyway, wonderful post.

[Dmckay]

This is something Anabaptists and Baptists disagree about, JFYI.Maybe, and maybe not. I believe that to become a member of a Baptist Church one must have been baptized by immersion as a believer. However, I don't believe that baptism was instituted to become a church member. It was to identify with the death, burial and resurrection to newness of life in Christ.

[Dmckay]

Very well said :thumbsup:

The unfortunate thing is many who hold fast to the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration do not accept the historical aspect of John's Baptism and what a Jewish mikvah (cerimonial immersion) meant - if it's Jewish or outside the Bible it must be wrong.

Anyway, wonderful post.Those that hold to baptismal regeneration have enough hermeneutical problems as it is, I wouldn't worry about their rejecting baptism's roots.

[Crazy Liz]

Maybe, and maybe not. I believe that to become a member of a Baptist Church one must have been baptized by immersion as a believer. However, I don't believe that baptism was instituted to become a churhc member. It was to identify with the death, burial and resurrection to newness of life in Christ.

Well, of course we could discuss all the nuances of the word "purpose." ;)

Baptism is the means by which one becomes a member of the church, according to Anabaptist faith and practice. I didn't say it was the sole purpose or significance of Baptism. Your answer sounded like you thought baptism had nothing to do with church membership.

[AJ]

Well, of course we could discuss all the nuances of the word "purpose." ;) You are a stickler for wording! ;)

[Dmckay]

Well, of course we could discuss all the nuances of the word "purpose." ;)

Baptism is the means by which one becomes a member of the church, according to Anabaptist faith and practice. I didn't say it was the sole purpose or significance of Baptism. Your answer sounded like you thought baptism had nothing to do with church membership.Now that that is cleared up. Shall we now discuss what "is" is?

[Crazy Liz]

OK. The point is that Anabaptists do not separate baptism from church membership, but Baptists do. The OP asked about the connection between baptism and church membership, so this needed to be mentioned.

Sorry I got so verbose. :blush:

[Dmckay]

Well, of course we could discuss all the nuances of the word "purpose." ;)

Baptism is the means by which one becomes a member of the church, according to Anabaptist faith and practice. I didn't say it was the sole purpose or significance of Baptism. Your answer sounded like you thought baptism had nothing to do with church membership.Except for the fact that church membership should only be open to believers, it doesn't. Can you show me Scripture, any translation will due, that ties baptism to church membership? I'll even settle for a passage that mentions church membership.

[Crazy Liz]

Except for the fact that church membership should only be open to believers, it doesn't. Can you show me Scripture, any translation will due, that ties baptism to church membership? I'll even settle for a passage that mentions church membership.

1 corinthians 12:13-14

[Pilgrim and stranger]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:

Acts 2
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God (1Peter3:21) however the Biblical pattern is reception into fellowship AFTER baptism

[Dmckay]

Was baptism as revealed in scriptures for the purpose of joining a church or did it have a different purpose?

:confused: :help:I thought maybe it was time to get back to Jim's OP. The question was, "joining a church" or a different purpose. I hope that we can all at least agree that it is the receipt of the Holy Spirit that unites us with the Church as the Body of Christ? No indwelling Holy Spirit, no salvation. Water baptism is an outward symbol of our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is not required for salvation, but is a first step of obedience for a believer.

For Conservative Baptist churches one must be baptized in order to join a local church. If the individual has been baptized, as a believer, by immersion in another church they may become a member of CB Church by Letter of Transfer or Recommendation.

Does this clarify things? When I asked for a verse that ties baptism to church membership, or even a verse that speaks about church membership I WAS NOT referring to membership in the "Church" as the Body of Christ, but rather to membership in a local church, which is what I believe th OP was asking.

[RED that's ME]

Baptism is the first simple act of obedience for a christian to do. It is one of the ordiances that a christian should fulfill as a new believer. By joining a church a person should be saying I am a believer & want to join with other believers here to grow in my faith and be encourage and to encourage. If a person doesn't want to do the first step of obedience why would the group/church think he would also do any other acts of obedience in his walk with Christ. This is one way how the church looks at it and why many churches require it. If we are not faithful in the something that Jesus has instructed us to do why should we be trusted with any other thing?

http://www.atgrace.com/beliefs/baptism.php ("][/url]The Purpose of Baptism

There are two fundamental purposes of baptism. In exploring these purposes, it is helpful to understand that baptism did not start with Christianity. This was a common religious practice. Sometimes the baptisms were of water of a variety of different modes—sprinkling, immersion, etc. Sometimes they were of blood. People from various groups and movements often baptized themselves! The reason John got his name "the baptizer" was because he was doing something few people did! That is, he was participating in other people's baptisms.

In Christianity, baptism is not intended to be a private experience. When you found Christ as your personal Savior—that was an intensely private experience. But once you have entered the family of God, there is nothing private about it! You are part of this wonderful thing called the Church, the Body of Christ, brothers and sisters related together in God's family.

Almost everything of spiritual significance that happens to you after your salvation happens in connection with your family—the extended family of God. And that includes baptism. Baptism is an ordinance of the Church of Jesus Christ. John baptized people. People didn't do it on their own.

What are the two purposes of baptism? First, it is an individual public profession of personal faith in Jesus Christ and surrender to Him. This is why it is so important that a person be old enough to understand what is happening and to be able to make such a commitment to Christ. This is why our baptisms at Grace Church are so special. It's a mature person professing, "I know what I'm doing. And I want you to know, I belong to Jesus Christ. I'm surrendered to His will in my life." Such testimonies bring great joy and blessing.

Is the purpose of baptism for the baptized person's benefit or for the congregation's benefit? For whose benefit is the Bible's command for baptism? The answer is "for both." That's why the congregation of the church, the baptized person's extended family, must attend and participate when people are being baptized. This is for your benefit. It's a biblical command of God.

The second reason for baptism is often lost in the study of baptism, but it is both biblical and consistent with the history of New Testament Christianity. Baptism was the initiation rite into the fellowship of the local church of believers.

The concept of baptizing persons who have no commitment to joining an assembly of believers is not found anywhere in the Bible. Bishop Stephen Neill has said it this way: "The New Testament knows nothing of membership in the church" (the local assembly) "by faith alone, without this accompanying act of obedience and confession."

In the early Church, following the Lord in the waters of baptism was the official, public pronouncement that a person was a believer in Christ and was part of that wonderful movement called Christianity. While there was much joy in this, there was also much personal cost as persecution often followed. Baptism was an "initiation ordinance" into the fellowship of the church.

There are still many places in the world today where an individual's baptism provokes persecution. In Communist countries there are often severe consequences to being baptized. In our culture, no one is persecuted because they are baptized, although they may have difficulty with some family members, depending on the family church background.

But baptism is the rite of initiation into the local church. In it a person is saying, "I am not just a 'lone ranger' for Christ. I am part of God's family." Such a person comes into a family of mutual commitment and love and relatedness to one other.

Baptism is required for Grace Church membership. Some who would like to be members refuse to be baptized. Why would the church require baptism for membership? Does baptism make you wiser in voting on a church budget? Does being immersed in the waters of baptism somehow contribute to the decision of who to call as your pastor, or in the exercise of other church membership decisions and responsibilities? Of course not!

Why, then, would Grace Church put an obstacle like this in the way of membership? The answer is that the Bible commands baptism for every believer as the first step of obedience to the Lord following salvation. Therefore, while worship and participation at Grace Church is open and available for everybody in the world, membership in the church is only for those who know the Lord and are surrendered to His will according to the Word of God. Such men and women are the core of what God is doing, and going to do, in the ministry of this church.

Membership is for people who love the Lord. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey what I command" (John 14: 15). Church membership is available to people who love the Lord enough to obey the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

Here is a good website that will explain it better in detail:

[url="http://www.atgrace.com/beliefs/baptism.php)

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Water baptism is a physical representation of a spiritual aspect.



Public identification with Jesus Christ.



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I agree completely with this.