Augustine on the Eucharist

[ByzantineDixie]

I am having a discussion on the Spiritfilled board about the Eucharist...and my pal, Bill (BBAS 64), quoted Augustine in defense of a "spiritual presence", as opposed to the "Real Presence". I am not necessarily seeing it from his quote. I'd like to present to him some good information from Augustine demonstrating that Augustine believed in the Real Presence...recommendations?

Thanks

Rose

[KagomeShuko]

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ459.HTM
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/eucharist/eucharist_7.htm
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num30.htm

Hope those help, and sorry if they don't!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Qoheleth]

Rose, here are few quotes to start:



Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, This is my body [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lords Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

[Organist]

yet faith does not desire instruction

I like this part. :)

[CrossWiseMag]

One thing that might be helpful -- not likely, but it can't hurt to try -- is to point out that the universal church has always agreed that Christ is present both bodily _and_ spiritually in the Supper. So to quote Augustine as saying we commune with Christ spiritually is not really to deny Christ's bodily presence. It is only to confirm one part of the equation. We do, as the Calvinists say, commune spiritually with Christ -- as in John 6. This is the communion received by faith in the Supper. Thus, unbelievers do not commune with Christ spiritually, because they do not receive the Sacrament in faith.

This is different from the communion with Christ's body and blood, which is present for believers and unbelievers alike, as Paul makes clear. But to affirm a "spiritual communion" is not to deny a "physical communion" in the Supper.

Martin Chemnitz has some great stuff on this in his book, "The Lord's Supper." It probably even includes a lot of quotes from Augustine. But unfortunately, I can't remember where I put it!

[BBAS 64]

I am having a discussion on the Spiritfilled board about the Eucharist...and my pal, Bill (BBAS 64), quoted Augustine in defense of a "spiritual presence", as opposed to the "Real Presence". I am not necessarily seeing it from his quote. I'd like to present to him some good information from Augustine demonstrating that Augustine believed in the Real Presence...recommendations?

Thanks

Rose

Good Day, Rose and my Lutheran Friends

The question arise around the use of these terms, as I see no real contidiction in them. Jesus said " I am with you, even to the end of the age". I do see this as a real presence as well as spiritual presence, just because some thing is spiritual does not mean it is not real.

so, is Jesus being with us not real?

Peace to u,

Bill

[CrossWiseMag]

Jesus is with us spiritually and bodily. Both are real. He promised both. He delivers both. :)

[BBAS 64]

Jesus is with us spiritually and bodily. Both are real. He promised both. He delivers both. :)

Good Day, CrossWise


" I am with you bodily" Cite please

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

sōmatikōs

Thayer Definition:

1) bodily, corporally

Augustine on Corporal presance:

If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,' says Christ, 'and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.' This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 3:16:24)

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

One thing that might be helpful -- not likely, but it can't hurt to try -- is to point out that the universal church has always agreed that Christ is present both bodily _and_ spiritually in the Supper. So to quote Augustine as saying we commune with Christ spiritually is not really to deny Christ's bodily presence. It is only to confirm one part of the equation. We do, as the Calvinists say, commune spiritually with Christ -- as in John 6. This is the communion received by faith in the Supper. Thus, unbelievers do not commune with Christ spiritually, because they do not receive the Sacrament in faith.

This is different from the communion with Christ's body and blood, which is present for believers and unbelievers alike, as Paul makes clear. But to affirm a "spiritual communion" is not to deny a "physical communion" in the Supper.

Martin Chemnitz has some great stuff on this in his book, "The Lord's Supper." It probably even includes a lot of quotes from Augustine. But unfortunately, I can't remember where I put it!

Good Day, Cross wise

Would you be so kind as to define "Bodily"?

Peace to u,
Bill

[BBAS 64]

Good Day Rose

I found the Quote from Augustine:

"It may be also understood in this way: 'The poor ye will have always with you, but me ye will not have always.' The good may take it also as addressed to themselves, but not so as to be any source of anxiety; for He was speaking of His bodily presence. For in respect of His majesty, His providence, His ineffable and invisible grace, His own words are fulfilled, 'Lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.' But in respect of the flesh He assumed as the Word, in respect of that which He was as the son of the Virgin, of that wherein He was seized by the Jews, nailed to the tree, let down from the cross, enveloped in a shroud, laid in the sepulchre, and manifested in His resurrection, 'ye will not have Him always.' And why? Because in respect of His bodily presence He associated for forty days with His disciples, and then, having brought them forth for the purpose of beholding and not of following Him, He ascended into heaven and is no longer here. He is there, indeed, sitting at the right hand of the Father; and He is here also, having never withdrawn the presence of His glory. In other words, in respect of His divine presence we always have Christ; in respect of His presence in the flesh it was rightly said to the disciples, 'Me ye will not have always.' In this respect the Church enjoyed His presence only for a few days: now it possesses Him by faith, without seeing Him with the eyes." (Lectures on the Gospel of John, 50:13)

Peace to u,

Bill

[CrossWiseMag]

" I am with you bodily" Cite please

"This is my body." -- Christ

Would you be so kind as to define "Bodily"?

Bodily means bodily. His body is present in the Supper. It is present in a form which we cannot detect, but it is there nonetheless.

By the way, your Augustine quote above on the "corporeal presence" does not disagree with the Lutheran view presented by Chemnitz in "The Lord's Supper." In John 6, Christ was indeed speaking of a "spiritual" eating and drinking. This does not mean, however, that the "corporeal" presence is not still a reality. Rather, it simply indicates that John 6 was not a direct reference to the Supper in all its fullness, which had not been established yet. There are certainly indications of the Supper to come in John 6. But the historic church, as far as I know, has never taught that the Supper is a "requirement" for salvation--and that's an indication of how it has handled John 6.

(Okay, I'm editing this. That last paragraph is overstated slightly. Some have taught that John 6 was a directly Eucharistic teaching, and I think orthodox theologians are split on how directly it is tied to the Eucharist. But the point stands, that preaching a "spiritual" meaning for John 6 does not preclude a "corporeal" understanding of the Supper.)

[BBAS 64]

"This is my body." -- Christ



Bodily means bodily. His body is present in the Supper. It is present in a form which we cannot detect, but it is there nonetheless. [QUOTE]

Good Day, Crosswise

That is a little differnet then "I am with you bodily". Let's look at this for one moment


Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

This is: It does beg a question seeing that this was the Sader and Jesus and all the Jews had partaken of the "bread" from the wrapped napkin with contained 3 loaves of unleavened bread, and Historiclly chose the 2 nd loaf for this part of the meal. Let us say 10 years before this Sader what was the meaning of the second loaf to Peter, Matthew did it carry a meaning in the historical context for the Jews?

[QUOTE]By the way, your Augustine quote above on the "corporeal presence" does not disagree with the Lutheran view presented by Chemnitz in "The Lord's Supper." In John 6, Christ was indeed speaking of a "spiritual" eating and drinking. This does not mean, however, that the "corporeal" presence is not still a reality. Rather, it simply indicates that John 6 was not a direct reference to the Supper in all its fullness, which had not been established yet. There are certainly indications of the Supper to come in John 6. But the historic church, as far as I know, has never taught that the Supper is a "requirement" for salvation--and that's an indication of how it has handled John 6.

(Okay, I'm editing this. That last paragraph is overstated slightly. Some have taught that John 6 was a directly Eucharistic teaching, and I think orthodox theologians are split on how directly it is tied to the Eucharist. But the point stands, that preaching a "spiritual" meaning for John 6 does not preclude a "corporeal" understanding of the Supper.)


Cross, Fair enough on John #6, but I will sumbit the historical context of the"supper" was fully underestood and is germaine to the understanding of the passover that Jesus shared with his fellow Jews.

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Rose, here are few quotes to start:



Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, This is my body [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lords Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).

Good Day, Qoheleth

Thanks for these citations I will look these up this weekend as time permits.

For His Glory Alone! :clap:

Bill

[Jim47]

This may not be of any help, since others have already referenced it, but why should we question the scriptures when they so clearly stated what we are recieving?

1Co 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

1Co 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1Co 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1Co 11:26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

1Co 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.