Is Hell Eternal?

[InnerPhyre]

A while back, Jeff and I had a really interesting discussion about hell (by the way, where is Jeff? I haven't seen him in ages). He was telling me that those in hell actually experience the love of God, but since they are hardened by their sin, that love actually feels like torture. I thought this was a really interesting perspective, and he also mentioned that he didn't believe that hell was necessarily eternal. Is there an official Orthodox position on this subject? I've never really thought of hell that way, so I'd like to know more about the idea. Peace!


Mike

[Moros]

hrmm, well, since there is no purgation of sins in the afterlife, and we recieve a partial judgement which is a foretaste of our eternity, id have to say yes.

[Rilian]

St. Symeon the New Theologian described Heaven/Hell in terms of the experience of the uncreated light of God. We are transformed and illumined by the light of God when we accept the grace he freely extends to us which is earned without our merit, or we are burned by his love if we reject it. Heaven is not a place in the sky, and Hell is not at the center of the earth. They are descriptions for our relative state before God and the way in which we experience him.

Hell can be eternal, but it's because we have the choice to make it so.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The Bible speaks of eternal condemnation, as well as a great chasm between heaven and hell, which no one can cross. So, I say it is eternal. Why, or even how, would someone in hell come to heaven? They already chose death.

[InnerPhyre]

St. Symeon the New Theologian described Heaven/Hell in terms of the experience of the uncreated light of God. We are transformed and illumined by the light of God when we accept the grace he freely extends to us which is earned without our merit, or we are burned by his love if we reject it. Heaven is not a place in the sky, and Hell is not at the center of the earth. They are descriptions for our relative state before God and the way in which we experience him.

Hell can be eternal, but it's because we have the choice to make it so.

This is my line of thinking as well.

[prodromos]

I have to wonder though. Do the saints in heaven ever stop praying for the miserable souls in hell? Are their prayers in vain or is it possible that they can bring about a change in their condition? Perhaps all it achieves is some respite from their suffering.
I think the idea that all will eventually be saved is a little dangerous in that it could easily breed an attitude of complacency, i.e. if we are going to get to heaven eventually, why not enjoy a little vice now and then? Why bother making that effort to control my passions, or to get up early in time for church etc. You can see where this will lead.

John.

[Marjorie]

I would say that hell is potentially eternal, but it does not have to be, as hell is an active choice to reject God even in the presence of His Love.

They talk of hell fire in the material sense. I don't go into that mystery and I shun it. But I think if there were fire in material sense, they would be glad of it, for I imagine that in material agony, their still greater spiritual agony would be forgotten for a moment. Moreover, that spiritual agony cannot be taken from them, for that suffering is not external but within them. And if it could be taken from them, I think it would be bitterer still for the unhappy creatures. For even if the righteous in Paradise forgave them, beholding their torments, and called them up to heaven in their infinite love, they would only multiply their torments, for they would arouse in them still more keenly a flaming thirst for responsive, active and grateful love which is now impossible. In the timidity of my heart I imagine, however, that the very recognition of this impossibility would serve at last to console them. For accepting the love of the righteous together with the impossibility of repaying it, by this submissiveness and the effect of this humility, they will attain at last, as it were, to a certain semblance of that active love which they scorned in life, to something like its outward expression...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[NewToLife]

I have to wonder though. Do the saints in heaven ever stop praying for the miserable souls in hell? Are their prayers in vain or is it possible that they can bring about a change in their condition?

Well we know very well from Orthodox Tradition that a soul may be saved even after death if the saints intercede before God on their behalf. The question is I guess limited to whether or not this will remain true after the final judgement. Who really knows just how far God's mercy stretches? It is beyond our understanding to answer such questions I suspect.

[Rilian]

I think the idea that all will eventually be saved is a little dangerous in that it could easily breed an attitude of complacency, i.e. if we are going to get to heaven eventually, why not enjoy a little vice now and then?

It's dangerous and it's blasphemous, just as the idea is of a God who created a "Hell" as a place to punish his creation. Saying all will be saved means God is using compulsion on those who reject him to "save" them against their will. It is a fundamental compromise of human freedom.

[Eusebios]

Very true Andrew. In fact, the idea of Universal Salvation has been reje cted as being heretical. We do indeed choose how we will recieve God's uncreated light. Either it will warm and illumine us, or else blind and consume us.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Wiffey]

Hell can be eternal, but it's because we have the choice to make it so.

Yes! As long as there is free will, those who love evil will choose to distance themselves from God.

[G4m]

hrmm, well, since there is no purgation of sins in the afterlife, and we recieve a partial judgement which is a foretaste of our eternity, id have to say yes.

When does the partial judgement take place?

[G4m]

emA while back, Jeff and I had a really interesting discussion about hell (by the way, where is Jeff? I haven't seen him in ages). He was telling me that those in hell actually experience the love of God, but since they are hardened by their sin, that love actually feels like torture. I thought this was a really interesting perspective, and he also mentioned that he didn't believe that hell was necessarily eternal. Is there an official Orthodox position on this subject? I've never really thought of hell that way, so I'd like to know more about the idea. Peace!


Mike

I think I remember Jeff telling me its possible to leave hell through prayer. But I didn't ask him from which side the praying comes from...

[G4m]

I have to wonder though. Do the saints in heaven ever stop praying for the miserable souls in hell? Are their prayers in vain or is it possible that they can bring about a change in their condition? Perhaps all it achieves is some respite from their suffering.
I think the idea that all will eventually be saved is a little dangerous in that it could easily breed an attitude of complacency, i.e. if we are going to get to heaven eventually, why not enjoy a little vice now and then? Why bother making that effort to control my passions, or to get up early in time for church etc. You can see where this will lead.

John.

Unless you look at it from the point of view of how can anyone resist worshipping God for eternity. Especially considering He is worthy of worship and love, that alone would suggest it would have to happen eventually???

[G4m]

Well we know very well from Orthodox Tradition that a soul may be saved even after death if the saints intercede before God on their behalf. The question is I guess limited to whether or not this will remain true after the final judgement. Who really knows just how far God's mercy stretches? It is beyond our understanding to answer such questions I suspect.

Really? Could you point me to some more information on this?

[G4m]

Very true Andrew. In fact, the idea of Universal Salvation has been reje cted as being heretical. We do indeed choose how we will recieve God's uncreated light. Either it will warm and illumine us, or else blind and consume us.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

I used to think this as well, until I read this:

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc12&page=96&view

Under the instruction of these great teachers many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church (http://<u><font%20color=/) (q.v.) until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it.

In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six 2. In the West. known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria [see Alexandria, School of (http://<u><font%20color=/)], Antioch, Cæsarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I used to think this as well, until I read this:

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc12&page=96&view

Then why is there judgement? I suggest you ask a priest. That source doesn't seem totally accurate...

[NewToLife]

Really? Could you point me to some more information on this?

Try this link for more information;

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/excerpts_death.aspx

[Eusebios]

I used to think this as well, until I read this:

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc12&page=96&view
The key word here is "believed", past tense. It is no longer accepted, I believe it was declared to be heretical by the 4th or 5th Ecumenical Council.
In Xp,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Rilian]

I used to think this as well, until I read this:

http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=schaff&bookID=encyc12&page=96&view

Gosh, whoda thought the nice folks at Calvin College might not want to portray the East in the best light. ;)

I think if you go and read some quotes and writings from some very early Eastern Fathers you will have no doubt about their teaching on salvation. St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. John Chrysostom, St. Athenagoras, St. Justin Martyr and St. Basil the Great all come to mind from first centuries of the church. The Desert Fathers and St. Athanasius, also well before 500 A.D., are also good sources. Reading the Desert Fathers actually sobers one on how much is asked of us in order to achieve salvation. Here is a short article about St. Pachomius (http://www.innerlightproductions.com/thoughts/july2599.htm ).

Origen of Alexandria indeed did believe in the restoration of all things, i.e. universal salvation. This and other teachings however were the reason why he was declared not to be part of the church and why he is not seen as a church father, though he was influential. St. Gregory of Nyssa is often portrayed as having advocating the position of Origen. Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos I think covered that topic well in this link (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.08.htm).

[G4m]

Try this link for more information;

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/excerpts_death.aspx

Thank you, very interesting. :)

[G4m]

The key word here is "believed", past tense. It is no longer accepted, I believe it was declared to be heretical by the 4th or 5th Ecumenical Council.
In Xp,
Eusebios.
:bow:

Thanks and I agree. I was just suprised to see it wasn't always the case...

[G4m]

Gosh, whoda thought the nice folks at Calvin College might not want to portray the East in the best light. ;)

I think if you go and read some quotes and writings from some very early Eastern Fathers you will have no doubt about their teaching on salvation. St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna, St. John Chrysostom, St. Athenagoras, St. Justin Martyr and St. Basil the Great all come to mind from first centuries of the church. The Desert Fathers and St. Athanasius, also well before 500 A.D., are also good sources. Reading the Desert Fathers actually sobers one on how much is asked of us in order to achieve salvation. Here is a short article about St. Pachomius (http://www.innerlightproductions.com/thoughts/july2599.htm).

Origen of Alexandria indeed did believe in the restoration of all things, i.e. universal salvation. This and other teachings however were the reason why he was declared not to be part of the church and why he is not seen as a church father, though he was influential. St. Gregory of Nyssa is often portrayed as having advocating the position of Origen. Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos I think covered that topic well in this link (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.08.htm).

I appreciate your reply and the links!

It'll take a little time for me to read over, but this struck me as odd:

According to this theory, God in His love and philanthropy will restore the whole creation, evil will disappear, and as a result there will be no eternal Hell. This means that all people will be saved. Of course such a theory of eschatology and soteriology overturns the whole structure of the faith and takes away the basic teachings of the Church as they are expressed in Holy Scripture and the texts of the Fathers of the Church. One can assert that such a theory removes the essence of ecclesiology as well.

Does the church teach that evil stops? Or are we not sure on what will happen?

[Apostolos]

Very true Andrew. In fact, the idea of Universal Salvation has been reje cted as being heretical. We do indeed choose how we will recieve God's uncreated light. Either it will warm and illumine us, or else blind and consume us.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:
Quite right, it's an Origenic belief, rejected as heresy by the 5th Ecumenical Synod

[Rilian]

Does the church teach that evil stops? Or are we not sure on what will happen?

I would think that after the second coming and universal judgement takes place, and the church militant and the heavenly church are joined, evil as it is brought in to the world (i.e. death) will cease.