Question about Saints

[Dust and Ashes]

I remember once while having lunch with Father, I was asking questions and when I asked if there were any post Schism RC Saints that are recognized by the Church, he told me that "God determines who are Saints and we just accept it." Now, he was not saying that there were any RC Saints officially recognized by the Church but my question is this:

If it is entirely up to God who is a Saint, then isn't it very likely we have refused to recognize some genuine Saints simply because they were part of a schismatic group? What criteria are required for someone to be deemed a Saint? I mean if a person were born RC and lived a life of piety and service and found mercy in the eyes of God and was exalted by Him, do we still deny that they are Saints even if they are? What is the position generally taken by the Church on such matters?

[countrymousenc]

This is not necessarily the best answer, but it's the best I can do for now. In the Bible, all of God's people are referred to as saints. However, the Church has set before us, as examples to follow, people whose lives of faith have been truly outstanding. It only makes sense that, after the schism, the Orthodox Church would limit that list to Orthodox Christians, since Orthodoxy itself is part of the example we should imitate. There are certainly individuals from heterodox churches whose examples we should imitate in part, such as Mother Theresa. But we cannot follow their example in full, since they were not Orthodox.

[Moros]

AFAIK, it isn't possible for a non Orthodox to be canonized in the OC. I can tell you that there aren't any RC saints in Orthodoxy, though some of theirs have had good ideas that we use, such as the 7 grievous "deadly" sins from Aquinas.

[NewToLife]

I very much doubt that it is possible to be a Saint outside of the Church ( ie Orthodoxy ). It is of course possible to be a recipient of God's mercy outside of the Church but this is of a different order than the fullness of grace available within the Church.

A close look at many RC saints post schism will reveal that their beliefs and teachings are usually in conflict with Orthodox teaching to one degree or another.

[Dust and Ashes]

I very much doubt that it is possible to be a Saint outside of the Church ( ie Orthodoxy ). It is of course possible to be a recipient of God's mercy outside of the Church but this is of a different order than the fullness of grace available within the Church.

A close look at many RC saints post schism will reveal that their beliefs and teachings are usually in conflict with Orthodox teaching to one degree or another.
So then if someone outside the Church does recieve mercy, they are kind of like a 2nd class citizen of the Kingdom? What is the terminology (if there is) of such people?

[Orthosdoxa]

I am completely unversed in such matters, but I do know there will be no 2nd class saints. A quote from St. Augustine seems pertinent here - "There are wolves within the Church and sheep without." Or, as folks here like to say, we know where the Church is, but we don't know where she isn't. There are folks who are Orthodox, even though they're not "Orthodox". I tend to think CS Lewis belonged to that category. Does that make any sense?

[NewToLife]

So then if someone outside the Church does recieve mercy, they are kind of like a 2nd class citizen of the Kingdom? What is the terminology (if there is) of such people?

If someone receives God's mercy then they are not a second class citizen of the kingdom. This does not alter the fact that a person is either within the Church or not, if not within the church then we ought not to look to them for an example, after all if we abandon the sacramental life of Christ's church to follow their example then we place our chances of salvation in great jeopardy. A saint whose example is not to be followed seems a contradiction in terms to my mind and it was this that guided my comments, the fact that God is merciful is not a good reason for us to abandon the Church though he may in his mercy save whosoever he chooses.

[Marjorie]

St. Isaac the Syrian was a member of a schismatic Church.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Dust and Ashes]

I am completely unversed in such matters, but I do know there will be no 2nd class saints. A quote from St. Augustine seems pertinent here - "There are wolves within the Church and sheep without." Or, as folks here like to say, we know where the Church is, but we don't know where she isn't. There are folks who are Orthodox, even though they're not "Orthodox". I tend to think CS Lewis belonged to that category. Does that make any sense?
This makes perfect sense and is pretty much exactly what I think. I guess what I'm really asking is what if there is a person who falls into that category and there is some manifestation that makes it clear that they have recieved mercy, what would be the reaction of Orthodox people including the Church as a whole?

[vanshan]

The Orthodox acknowledge that there are many more saints that are unknown to us in the Church Militant on earth. God makes a person a saint, not the Orthodox Church, although the Church is part of His grace that saves. Who knows what has become of C.S. Lewis? We can be assured that God, who is full of mercy has treated him justly.

Basil

[Dust and Ashes]

If someone receives God's mercy then they are not a second class citizen of the kingdom. This does not alter the fact that a person is either within the Church or not, if not within the church then we ought not to look to them for an example, after all if we abandon the sacramental life of Christ's church to follow their example then we place our chances of salvation in great jeopardy. A saint whose example is not to be followed seems a contradiction in terms to my mind and it was this that guided my comments, the fact that God is merciful is not a good reason for us to abandon the Church though he may in his mercy save whosoever he chooses.
I'm using the term Saint to mean someone who has recieved mercy and is with Christ and I never said anything about abandoning the Church. I was just thinking about some things and this crossed my mind.

So then is my definition wrong? Everyone who is a Saint is in Heaven but everyone who is in Heaven is not a Saint? Is that more accurate?

[NewToLife]

I'm using the term Saint to mean someone who has recieved mercy and is with Christ and I never said anything about abandoning the Church. I was just thinking about some things and this crossed my mind.

In all honesty I'm not at all certain that the definition of saint presented is actually in accord with the way in which it is used generally in Orthodoxy, at least in a day to day sense.

For instance, it is conceivable that God may have mercy on a man who has never heard the gospel at all, would we consider such a person a saint? If so do we class them the same as Orthodox saints and write icons for veneration of them?

There are of course unrecognised saints but I venture to say that we ought to concentrate on those who have been proclaimed so by the church, post schism RC saints have not been recognised by Orthodox in the past, I see no reason to do so now simply to comply with the current spirit of ecumenism.

As for abandoning the church, once we no longer hold that we need the church for salvation ( implicit in the recognition of non Orthodox as saints ), what is to keep us from the easy option of modern Catholicism or its Protestant offspring?

[Marjorie]

There is a difference between a Saint (i.e. a specifically holy one) and a member of the "communion of saints," and therefore, in a sense, a saint (someone made holy by God.) All who are in heaven are part of the communion of saints.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Wiffey]

I am completely unversed in such matters, but I do know there will be no 2nd class saints. A quote from St. Augustine seems pertinent here - "There are wolves within the Church and sheep without." Or, as folks here like to say, we know where the Church is, but we don't know where she isn't. There are folks who are Orthodox, even though they're not "Orthodox". I tend to think CS Lewis belonged to that category. Does that make any sense?
Dratted rep nazis!

When the Great Schism occurred, I highly doubt that all the faithful Christians in the West all made a conscious decision to move away from Orthodoxy. For them, it was a matter of geography. They continued to attend their local churches and pray as they had always done. I firmly believe (even though we do not see their icons in any Orthodox churches) that there are MANY post-Schism Saints in the West.

When I came to Orthodoxy I had a big question about this, because there were some Saints that I was devoted to as a Catholic that I couldn't see myself ignoring. In particular, St. Martin of Porres whose intercession I felt was key to having a lump in my breast DISAPPEAR when I went for an ultrasound to rule out cancer on his feast day. (My Aunt and I both did his novena asking his intercession prior to the ultrasound.) If he's not the real deal and in heaven, I've got no shot at it AT ALL.

My priest had some good input on this. He reminded me that we do not know where the Church ISN'T, so to feel free to honor and request the intercession of dearly beloved Catholic Saints in my private devotions. That was important to me because there are some Saints that have been cherished in my family for generations. All led lives of prayer and service and would have been Orthodox Saints had they been born in Greece rather than in Western Europe or Latin America. Of course, the beloved Saints whose names my daughter and I took in Chrismation were pre-Schism.

Be it East or West, holiness and a longing to serve God & self-sacrifice are appreciated by God. When this life is finished we'll know for sure...

[Theophorus]

It was my understanding that all in heaven are saints, or to be specific, in the Kingdom of God. The idea of the office of sainthood is due to the amount of grace and level of theosis attained. Though all of those receiving God's mercy are saints (just as all are a type of priest), it is the ones who demonstrated, or showed evidence of a high amount of grace through miracles and their holy lives, that their lives were a testimony of God and God also confirmed His grace in them in such a way that it is evident to all.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Be it East or West, holiness and a longing to serve God & self-sacrifice are appreciated by God. When this life is finished we'll know for sure...

I agree with you on that one.

There are a few Western Saints that I wouldn't mind writing icons of, but I won't because they are not Orthodox and I do not want to get myself in any kind of trouble.

[Dust and Ashes]

As for abandoning the church, once we no longer hold that we need the church for salvation ( implicit in the recognition of non Orthodox as saints ), what is to keep us from the easy option of modern Catholicism or its Protestant offspring?
The fact that we do need the Church for salvation. That's what is to keep us from the easy option of modern Catholicism or its Protestant offspring. :doh: You seem to be taking my question a step farther than I intended it to go. I don't believe for a moment that we should start writing icons for non-Orthodox Saints but at the same time, it seems very judgemental to maintain that just because of circumstances of birth (being born in the west rather than east) that someone is not recognized by God for their love and piety.

But I should probably just shut up as I get the feeling I'm close to being accused of ecumenism. (as if I haven't already ;))

[gzt]

We don't say that anybody is not recognized by God and all that jazz. We just don't canonize some people as saints because we don't know. It's not like we're saying Mother Theresa is damned because we probably would never canonize her and we're not saying she is not a saint. We don't know.

[Dust and Ashes]

We don't say that anybody is not recognized by God and all that jazz. We just don't canonize some people as saints because we don't know. It's not like we're saying Mother Theresa is damned because we probably would never canonize her and we're not saying she is not a saint. We don't know.

Gotcha. :thumbsup: That's the answer I was hoping to get. Thanks all for your input.