My second Sunday at a Lutheran Church

[CEV]

Today I attended another Lutheran church.

As most of you know, I am doing some serious church-shopping. I have deconverted from the Baptist denomination because their entire faith is founded on sand--the erroneous sand of fundamentalism, literalism and ultra-conservatism. And because my faith--which was once founded on that same erroneous sand--crumbled and came crashing down, I have rejected all denominations that use this same faith system.

It is a system that makes many assumptions that are untrue, and which would not stand if it was realized that the assumptions were in error.

So, I am seeking a new faith system that embodies truth, rather than error. I am seeking a faith system that can stand and not topple over with new scientific discoveries and enlightenment. I seek a faith that does not mock modernism as a form of rebellion towards God. The faith that I am looking for welcomes new insights, discoveries, and intelligence and knowledge; accepts truth; and has no trouble incorporating these with the spiritual truths in the Bible.

And therefore, the faith system in a Lutheran church would have to be similar to what I have described above.

Finally, to the part about the church I attended today...

The moment I parked in the parking lot of this Lutheran church, I felt comfortable. And as I walked into the church I immediately felt like this was a welcoming and friendly place. And when the services started, I sensed that God was there, that these people were worshipping, and that God was pleased with the church.

However, I have reservations about their pastor. He reminds me of a Baptist preacher at one of the churches I used to attend who was actually a porn addict. Thankfully he no longer is today. But the thing is, I had sensed that he was not genuine in his preaching while I was attending that church. It seemed that he was greedy and that something was wrong. It turned out that I was right. It was a gut feeling. And it's a gut feeling here now at this church too. My gut is telling me that he is stealing money from the church. Hopefully it this isn't so, but I trust my gut.

If I am right about this, seriously, I am gonna swear that I have a 6th sense!

But anyway, I really hope that there is nothing wrong with the pastor at this church. The people there are so friendly and kind and Godly. The services were beautiful, and everthing said and done was relevant.

When I first came in, there was an elderly lady who smiled at me warmly. Another lady greeted me on the way to the sanctuary and I asked her briefly if I was supposed to enter the sanctuary or a different area (for classes for my age bracket). But since the church is filled with elderly and middle-aged people, there are not even Sunday School classes for children. This is very unfortunate. It seems like all the youth are fleeing from liturgical churches these days, in favor of the larger Baptist and similar churches. These Baptist churches will use modern songs in worship instead of hymns, no liturgy, and have very informal, Bible-thumping services with messages that are sometimes laced with ignorance and bigotry. I can't imagine why the youth find that so attractive. I'm 20, and I can't stand that stuff anymore.

My experience at the Lutheran church today was the best one yet, in that I felt that I belonged somehow. There was a sense of community in that church, and yet not a "click." Even though those people are so comfortable with themselves and have a strong social network, they made it clear that I was not an intrusion to their comfort zone.

One funny incident happened to me after one of the readings. When it was time to greet the "brethren" and "sistren (sp?)" (lol), this elderly man whom I had been sitting a few seats away from, asked me if he could kiss my hand! I told him no, but in a kind manner. I was just so shocked and embarassed! Never before has anyone asked to kiss my hand! It didnt' offend me, however, as I saw that he was a sweet elderly man. He explained that it was a sign of respect, and I acknowledged that it was. But I still didn't let him kiss my hand. Instead I shook his hand.

The Anglican church and the other Lutheran church that I attended didn't feel quite right. This church seemed very close to what I am looking for, however.

But I will keep attending churches until I find the right one.

[Organist]

Don't worry, Lutheran churches, in general, seem to have a self-healing quality. If the Pastor is not on the "up and up" he will be asked to leave. The congregation is the most important thing, in my opinion. We had two less-than-upright pastors in ours, and the second one just left. Our congregation is now looking for a new pastor. In the meantime, we get some really neat guest pastors for the services. :)

[Lutherrunner]

It seems like all the youth are fleeing from liturgical churches these days, in favor of the larger Baptist and similar churches. These Baptist churches will use modern songs in worship instead of hymns, no liturgy, and have very informal, Bible-thumping services with messages that are sometimes laced with ignorance and bigotry. I can't imagine why the youth find that so attractive. I'm 20, and I can't stand that stuff anymore.

My experience at the Lutheran church today was the best one yet, in that I felt that I belonged somehow. There was a sense of community in that church, and yet not a "click." Even though those people are so comfortable with themselves and have a strong social network, they made it clear that I was not an intrusion to their comfort zone.

I'm glad that it was a good experience for you, well, for the most part anyway.....

I am also dismayed that some churches use pop culture to lure youth to church and then have a hidden agenda regarding politics.....

[revjpw]

It seems like all the youth are fleeing from liturgical churches these days, in favor of the larger Baptist and similar churches. These Baptist churches will use modern songs in worship instead of hymns, no liturgy, and have very informal, Bible-thumping services with messages that are sometimes laced with ignorance and bigotry. I can't imagine why the youth find that so attractive. I'm 20, and I can't stand that stuff anymore.
Actually, this is not true. Studies and surveys have shown that today's youth favor more traditional liturgical churches. The notion that churches that push more contemporary worship styles are catering to young people is simply not true. I know that many Southern Baptist churches have adopted more traditional liturgical worship styles because their young people were leaving.


DaRev :)

[Lutherrunner]

Actually, this is not true. Studies and surveys have shown that today's youth favor more traditional liturgical churches. The notion that churches that push more contemporary worship styles are catering to young people is simply not true. I know that many Southern Baptist churches have adopted more traditional liturgical worship styles because their young people were leaving.


DaRev :)
Really?.....I'll have to admit that I am somewhat surprised, but that would be a nice finding....

[CEV]

Actually, this is not true. Studies and surveys have shown that today's youth favor more traditional liturgical churches. The notion that churches that push more contemporary worship styles are catering to young people is simply not true. I know that many Southern Baptist churches have adopted more traditional liturgical worship styles because their young people were leaving.


DaRev :)So far that has not been my experience. I attended a southern baptist church in my area a few years ago that was heavily incorporating pop culture into its services, and there were many young people, about as many as elderly. It was a large church.

I guess it varies with the city or location, or maybe just with each church.

[CEV]

To take the topic a little bit in a different direction here, my church-shopping is just one area of my life in which I was forced to seek independence. I say forced because when new knowledge comes my way, or new understanding of old knowledge occurs, it forces a new perspecive and new opinions to take root in the mind.

My views on life and religion are now so vastly different from those of my parents that I feel an internal strain between me and them now. I am still living at home with them, and this is partially why the strain exists, I think. I can't tell them what I think or what my new views are because they will be grieved. I'm a liberal, and they are conservatives. I am not a Bible literalist, and I don't believe that every word in the Bible is directly God's words. However, my parents feel deeply that every word and syllable in the Bible was dictated by God and represents perfectly His divine will. They don't believe that any translation errors occured.

I am open minded and love discussing new ideas, but when I try to bring up the less controversial ones with my mom, she just refers to what the Bible says, and since she thinks that that's also what God says, that settles it for her.

I can't tell her that I am a liberal Christian, not because I want to be, but because I am forced to be. I can't tell her that I am a theistic evolutionist; she's a young earth Creationist. I can't tell her anything, because she will be grieved, thinking that I have deconverted from Christianity all together.

And so, I am seeking to separate myself spiritually from them, because we have very little common ground left in that area. I seek to establish my own faith independent of hers and my dad's.

If anyone has been in a similar situation, please offer some advice. Thanks. :)

[Lutherrunner]

I just want to say that I admire your determination to find a church home that fits your beliefs. I have had some exposure to those pop culture but politically conservative churches and I have found a new appreciation for being a Lutheran.....

Are you working or going to college?.......when do you hope to be on your own? I have a daughter your age and she moved to Austin and is having the time of her life....

[KagomeShuko]

Don't worry, Lutheran churches, in general, seem to have a self-healing quality. If the Pastor is not on the "up and up" he will be asked to leave. The congregation is the most important thing, in my opinion. We had two less-than-upright pastors in ours, and the second one just left. Our congregation is now looking for a new pastor. In the meantime, we get some really neat guest pastors for the services. :)
That's very true. Before I was even born, the church I now attend had so many problems with some pastors. There was one who embezzled money. There was another who raped a girl in our fellowship hall. I started attending with my family when I was just five. We had a young pastor, then, recently out of seminary, I'm sure. He died of AIDS - there was some speculation going around that maybe he was homosexual - but what I've heard people say was true was that he got it from a blood transfusion before they knew about AIDS.

Whatever. . .I don't bother to wonder.

We've had two other permanent pastors since I've been there and plenty of interim or guest pastors. We still currently have an interim pastor.

We, however, have lasted for 50 years.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

Actually, this is not true. Studies and surveys have shown that today's youth favor more traditional liturgical churches. The notion that churches that push more contemporary worship styles are catering to young people is simply not true. I know that many Southern Baptist churches have adopted more traditional liturgical worship styles because their young people were leaving.


DaRev :)
I have not found this to be true at all. I find youth flocking to contemporary music. Sometimes all it is are lyrics that basically say, "I love God, I love God, I love God. . ."

I don't find youth in churches with liturgy much at all.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[CrossWiseMag]

I am not a Bible literalist, and I don't believe that every word in the Bible is directly God's words. However, my parents feel deeply that every word and syllable in the Bible was dictated by God and represents perfectly His divine will. They don't believe that any translation errors occured.

These are two quite different issues. It is one thing to deny translation errors, and it is another to deny that God is willing or able to communicate his message to humanity correctly. I would suggest that you consider the following: when one of our perceptions does not fit with a teaching of Holy Scripture, perhaps our perception is incorrect. We are, after all, dead in our trespasses and sins. If you are so willing to change your opinion as "new information" arises, then why would you not be willing to change your opinion as a matter of faith that God means what He says?

The Lutheran position on this question is that God's Word cannot not err. This is a good thing, because our faith rests on the promises contained therein. Relying on any kind of Spirit-led movement aside from what is contained in the Scriptures is "enthusiasm," and the Lutheran Confessions have very harsh words for those who engage in such doubt-inducing games.

In addition, there is a big difference between being a "literalist" and believing the Bible to be God's inerrant Word. The Lutheran way of reading the Bible is to read it literally when a literal reading is indicated by the text, and to read it symbolically when a symbolic reading is indicated by the text. In some ways, this is no different than the way we watch a movie or read any other book. When you're watching a movie, and the main character suffers a blow to the head and the screen gets all wavy, you know a dream is coming. You wouldn't think to view the following scene as a "literal" occurrence, in the framework of the movie. God, too, gives us similar clues in His Word. When no literary "clues" exist to tell us "This is a symbolic story," then we would do well to heed God's message to us.

I guess my question is, if we don't believe the Bible is true, then what do we believe in? Did Jesus really die? Was He really resurrected? Was He really God? Was He really man? If yes, how do you know these particular things are true? The Lutheran position is that we know these things are true because they are contained in God's Holy Word. But that can't be the answer, if parts of the Bible are not really God's Holy Word. In that case, we must embark on a human journey to determine what's true and what's false. And that always ends badly. (See: Jesus Seminar.)

[ByzantineDixie]

And therefore, the faith system in a Lutheran church would have to be similar to what I have described above. I hope that you find what you are looking for and ferverently pray you are enabled by the Holy Spirit to embrace Christ's truths. However, I would be lying if I didn't say there is a part of me that hopes either your requirements change or you don't find what you are looking for in a Lutheran church...hope you understand. :sorry:


But anyway, I really hope that there is nothing wrong with the pastor at this church. Well, let me help you out here. Yep, something is wrong with this pastor...and I don't even have a sixth sense! ;) Something is wrong with every pastor...something is wrong with every single person in that church or in any other church...sinners...all of 'em.

One funny incident happened to me after one of the readings. When it was time to greet the "brethren" and "sistren (sp?)" (lol), this elderly man whom I had been sitting a few seats away from, asked me if he could kiss my hand! I told him no, but in a kind manner. I was just so shocked and embarassed! Never before has anyone asked to kiss my hand! It didnt' offend me, however, as I saw that he was a sweet elderly man. He explained that it was a sign of respect, and I acknowledged that it was. But I still didn't let him kiss my hand. Instead I shook his hand.Greet one another with a holy kiss. Romans 16:16

I have NEVER had this happen (although my husband kisses me during the the passing of the peace :blush: )...however I would LOVE it. I really like that "holy kiss" concept. You know...how the French greet each other by dual cheek kisses. Although as an American this is not comfortable for me in a social setting (thank goodness my French boss has finally adopted the US standard of the handshake! :eek: ) but I sure think I could get comfortable with this in a setting of believers.

The Anglican church and the other Lutheran church that I attended didn't feel quite right. This church seemed very close to what I am looking for, however.

But I will keep attending churches until I find the right one.Just be cautious with those feelings, OK? As sinners our feelings can trick us...can lull us into complacency, can lure us into self-indulgence and can mask the truth. Feelings are a pretty fallible barometer. The Word, however, will never confuse, be deceitful or lie.

Peace, my friend

Rose

[CEV]

I have not found this to be true at all. I find youth flocking to contemporary music. Sometimes all it is are lyrics that basically say, "I love God, I love God, I love God. . ."

I don't find youth in churches with liturgy much at all.

Stein Auf!
Bridget
It seems like the conservative Christians have created a Christian subculture or popculture of their own lately. 104.1 The Fish is their music station. Pop music (though I don't really see anything wrong with it) is overwhelming their worship services. And the songs they sing are like "I want to know you mooooooooooorrrrre" or "God is looooooooooooooooooooooove," or "He loves you, love love loooooooooooooooooooove!!!" It's all about love. But it feels very shallow. The shallowness is everywhere in Christian pop culture. Christ is not a fad, but that is what these churches are trying to do: make Christ a fad.

[ByzantineDixie]

If anyone has been in a similar situation, please offer some advice. Thanks. :)
Ya, I am in a similar situation...except I am the parent!!! :o And my son is the liberal. :(

But I still love him, still help him pay for college and have faith that God's will be done. You see, when I was his age, I was a liberal, too! :D

Peace

Rose

[CEV]

Are you working or going to college?.......when do you hope to be on your own? I have a daughter your age and she moved to Austin and is having the time of her life....Well, I'm torn between my growing need for total independence and my need to complete my education. I am almost finished with my A.S. degree, and I plan to get a B.S. also. However, I don't want an insanely stressful lifestyle either. What I am looking for is job security, a nice group of friends, and a comfortable income. Simple. But can I do that with an A.S.? Do I need a B.S.? Do I want to spend $25,000+ on two more years? I don't qualify for Financial Aid except for scholarships, and my parents can't help out either. And I don't believe in loans. Which means I would have to save save save. Which means more time at home. I don't know what to do.

[CEV]

The Lutheran position on this question is that God's Word cannot not err. This is a good thing, because our faith rests on the promises contained therein. Relying on any kind of Spirit-led movement aside from what is contained in the Scriptures is "enthusiasm," and the Lutheran Confessions have very harsh words for those who engage in such doubt-inducing games.
Of course God's word cannot err, but can the Bible? I am making a distinction for the purpose of this post.

If the Bible cannot err, this means that God is sexist. Example: The Bible states that God dictated certain laws through Moses concerning women. For a list of sexist laws, see the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. There are many.

I am leaning towards the Bible erring on this one, but not God. God cannot err.

In addition, there is a big difference between being a "literalist" and believing the Bible to be God's inerrant Word. The Lutheran way of reading the Bible is to read it literally when a literal reading is indicated by the text, and to read it symbolically when a symbolic reading is indicated by the text. In some ways, this is no different than the way we watch a movie or read any other book. When you're watching a movie, and the main character suffers a blow to the head and the screen gets all wavy, you know a dream is coming. You wouldn't think to view the following scene as a "literal" occurrence, in the framework of the movie. God, too, gives us similar clues in His Word. When no literary "clues" exist to tell us "This is a symbolic story," then we would do well to heed God's message to us.
What about when there are no warnings that it isn't literal? Such as the story of creation. We have known since the 1800s that the earth is very old, and yet a literal reading of Genesis indicates a young earth.

I guess my question is, if we don't believe the Bible is true, then what do we believe in? Did Jesus really die? Was He really resurrected? Was He really God? Was He really man? If yes, how do you know these particular things are true? The Lutheran position is that we know these things are true because they are contained in God's Holy Word. But that can't be the answer, if parts of the Bible are not really God's Holy Word. In that case, we must embark on a human journey to determine what's true and what's false. And that always ends badly. (See: Jesus Seminar.)
The ancient church, when it was in the process of determining what was and wasn't God's word, did not have access to the scientific knowledge we have today. Why do we look at what they did as final?

[Lutherrunner]

Well, I'm torn between my growing need for total independence and my need to complete my education. I am almost finished with my A.S. degree, and I plan to get a B.S. also. However, I don't want an insanely stressful lifestyle either. What I am looking for is job security, a nice group of friends, and a comfortable income. Simple. But can I do that with an A.S.? Do I need a B.S.? Do I want to spend $25,000+ on two more years? I don't qualify for Financial Aid except for scholarships, and my parents can't help out either. And I don't believe in loans. Which means I would have to save save save. Which means more time at home. I don't know what to do.
I guess that all depends on what your Associates is in, where you live as far as the job market and cost of living, etc......what would you like for your Bachelors to be in?......

[CEV]

I guess that all depends on what your Associates is in, where you live as far as the job market and cost of living, etc......what would you like for your Bachelors to be in?......
It's an A.S. in Engineering. And my B.S. would be in Aerospace Engineering. I live within a 4 hour's drive to a major Aerospace company, but all it does is have massive lay offs.

[Lutherrunner]

It seems like the conservative Christians have created a Christian subculture or popculture of their own lately. 104.1 The Fish is their music station. Pop music (though I don't really see anything wrong with it) is overwhelming their worship services. And the songs they sing are like "I want to know you mooooooooooorrrrre" or "God is looooooooooooooooooooooove," or "He loves you, love love loooooooooooooooooooove!!!" It's all about love. But it feels very shallow. The shallowness is everywhere in Christian pop culture. Christ is not a fad, but that is what these churches are trying to do: make Christ a fad.
I so totally agree with what you just said!.....I couldn't have said it better myself....this has been really puzzling to me!

By the way though....I am a huge secular music nut! particularly singer/songwriter music with creative lyrics, not pop fluff......

[Lutherrunner]

It's an A.S. in Engineering. And my B.S. would be in Aerospace Engineering. I live within a 4 hour's drive to a major Aerospace company, but all it does is have massive lay offs.
hmmmm.....what about a more general engineering degree?....mechanical, electrical or something?.....I live in Ft. Worth Tx and we have Lockheed, Bell Helicoptor and others, so I know how the market ebbs and flows with jobs....

[CrossWiseMag]

Of course God's word cannot err, but can the Bible? I am making a distinction for the purpose of this post.

Your attempt to make a distinction does not make it a real distinction. God has spoken to His people for thousands of years through Holy Scripture. Holy Scripture is God's Word. The Christian church has always used Holy Scripture as the rule and norm for all teaching. The Holy writings have settled disputes because they are the only sure source of teaching from God. All else is nothing but "enthusiasm," which believes God's revelation continues to evolve--even to the point of contradicting the things He told us before.

Also, you have the causation backwards on the establishment of Canon. God caused Holy Scripture to be written and preserved for our learning. Man only recognized what God had done in that regard. In other words, "the church" did not create the canon, but only recognized the canon that emerged through God's speaking to man.

[ChiRho]

Of course God's word cannot err, but can the Bible? I am making a distinction for the purpose of this post.

How are you able to distinguish the difference?

If the Bible cannot err, this means that God is sexist. Example: The Bible states that God dictated certain laws through Moses concerning women. For a list of sexist laws, see the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. There are many.

I think you should seriously consider your logic, in light of the result. If you could provide some passages that you deem sexist, we might have a better understanding where you are coming from (I am completely unfamiliar with the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, but I, would consider the fact that it contains Skeptic in the title!)

I am leaning towards the Bible erring on this one, but not God. God cannot err.

So, which parts of Holy Scripture do you cast into question, and which parts has CEV declared "holy" and "God-authored"? Now that you have some sort of list, what authority did you appeal to?


What about when there are no warnings that it isn't literal? Such as the story of creation. We have known since the 1800s that the earth is very old, and yet a literal reading of Genesis indicates a young earth.

I am not sure I agree with your "Creation must be something other than literal because science disagrees" premise. By what means, especially in the 1800's, have scientist been able to clearly estimate the "true" age of the earth?


The ancient church, when it was in the process of determining what was and wasn't God's word, did not have access to the scientific knowledge we have today. Why do we look at what they did as final?

Let me ask you something...does science agree that a few fish and loaves of bread can feed thousands of people (not only feed but completely satisfy everyone and still have left overs)?

...does science agree that a man can be beaten, crucified, die, buried in a tomb, and then rise again from the dead...on his own?

I think we run into problems when we turn science into Science and bow before this whore (to tie two threads into one!).

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Jim47]

When it comes to accepting everything that is written in the Bible as being true, I realize what a challange that is. But lets look at it in another way.


Fisrt, God has told us that He would presevere His Word forever. Now you have already stated that you believe in and trust God, your only doubts are that the Bible is actually still accurate, right?

So when it comes to certain parts that you find hard to understand or believe, how do you draw a conclusion? I can tell you this, God is vastly wiser than we are even able to imagine. I wished I were a Bible scholar, but I am not, so I have to work with God has given me, and that is faith.

I came to the conclusion long ago that I had to accept everything as written because who else could I trust but God and His Word which He has promised to preserve? satan is certainly not gonna whisper in your ear and say "no that part about creation is true"!

I'm using that as an example I hope you understand, and throwing in a little realizim and humor as well.

As far as trying to decide what is true and what is not, rather ask God for greater faith and understanding.

I am happy that you are so carefully seaching for a church and I think you will find it, just remember that while we are still here below even the best of us is nothing more than a vile sinner.

The following scripture has always given me much comfort and and guidance, I hope that it will bless you also.

And now I will show you the most excellent way.

1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

1Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

1Co 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

1Co 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

1Co 13:7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

1Co 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

1Co 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

1Co 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

May God grant you the peace you are seaching for. :amen:

[SPALATIN]

Today I attended another Lutheran church.

As most of you know, I am doing some serious church-shopping. I have deconverted from the Baptist denomination because their entire faith is founded on sand--the erroneous sand of fundamentalism, literalism and ultra-conservatism. And because my faith--which was once founded on that same erroneous sand--crumbled and came crashing down, I have rejected all denominations that use this same faith system.

It is a system that makes many assumptions that are untrue, and which would not stand if it was realized that the assumptions were in error.

So, I am seeking a new faith system that embodies truth, rather than error. I am seeking a faith system that can stand and not topple over with new scientific discoveries and enlightenment. I seek a faith that does not mock modernism as a form of rebellion towards God. The faith that I am looking for welcomes new insights, discoveries, and intelligence and knowledge; accepts truth; and has no trouble incorporating these with the spiritual truths in the Bible.

And therefore, the faith system in a Lutheran church would have to be similar to what I have described above.

Finally, to the part about the church I attended today...

The moment I parked in the parking lot of this Lutheran church, I felt comfortable. And as I walked into the church I immediately felt like this was a welcoming and friendly place. And when the services started, I sensed that God was there, that these people were worshipping, and that God was pleased with the church.

However, I have reservations about their pastor. He reminds me of a Baptist preacher at one of the churches I used to attend who was actually a porn addict. Thankfully he no longer is today. But the thing is, I had sensed that he was not genuine in his preaching while I was attending that church. It seemed that he was greedy and that something was wrong. It turned out that I was right. It was a gut feeling. And it's a gut feeling here now at this church too. My gut is telling me that he is stealing money from the church. Hopefully it this isn't so, but I trust my gut.

If I am right about this, seriously, I am gonna swear that I have a 6th sense!

Was there something he said or did that gave you the impression that he was less than honest?

I really hope that there is nothing wrong with the pastor at this church.ME TOO!

The people there are so friendly and kind and Godly. The services were beautiful, and everthing said and done was relevant.

When I first came in, there was an elderly lady who smiled at me warmly. Another lady greeted me on the way to the sanctuary and I asked her briefly if I was supposed to enter the sanctuary or a different area (for classes for my age bracket). But since the church is filled with elderly and middle-aged people, there are not even Sunday School classes for children. This is very unfortunate. It seems like all the youth are fleeing from liturgical churches these days, in favor of the larger Baptist and similar churches. These Baptist churches will use modern songs in worship instead of hymns, no liturgy, and have very informal, Bible-thumping services with messages that are sometimes laced with ignorance and bigotry. I can't imagine why the youth find that so attractive. I'm 20, and I can't stand that stuff anymore.

My experience at the Lutheran church today was the best one yet, in that I felt that I belonged somehow. There was a sense of community in that church, and yet not a "click." Even though those people are so comfortable with themselves and have a strong social network, they made it clear that I was not an intrusion to their comfort zone.

One funny incident happened to me after one of the readings. When it was time to greet the "brethren" and "sistren (sp?)" (lol), this elderly man whom I had been sitting a few seats away from, asked me if he could kiss my hand! I told him no, but in a kind manner. I was just so shocked and embarassed! Never before has anyone asked to kiss my hand! It didnt' offend me, however, as I saw that he was a sweet elderly man. He explained that it was a sign of respect, and I acknowledged that it was. But I still didn't let him kiss my hand. Instead I shook his hand.

The Anglican church and the other Lutheran church that I attended didn't feel quite right. This church seemed very close to what I am looking for, however.

But I will keep attending churches until I find the right one.
I would give a church more than just one visit. Maybe 5 or 6 visits and ask to meet with the Pastor and get to know him a little better than what you have already seen to develop your impressions. Also did you go to an ELCA church or LCMS or WELS? These are the 3 main synods of Lutheran churches in the US.

[KagomeShuko]

It seems like the conservative Christians have created a Christian subculture or popculture of their own lately. 104.1 The Fish is their music station. Pop music (though I don't really see anything wrong with it) is overwhelming their worship services. And the songs they sing are like "I want to know you mooooooooooorrrrre" or "God is looooooooooooooooooooooove," or "He loves you, love love loooooooooooooooooooove!!!" It's all about love. But it feels very shallow. The shallowness is everywhere in Christian pop culture. Christ is not a fad, but that is what these churches are trying to do: make Christ a fad.
Ugh! Exactly. Even when I got into contemporary Christian music, the lyrics mattered to me. I might like a song, but it mattered to me to read the lyrics - what were they saying? What was the point of the song?

Sure, I like quite a few of those "I love God" and "God is love" songs, just for fun and listening - but not for worship, really.

Another reason for my deep love of Lost And Found :) Those meaningful lyrics!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[revjpw]

Quoted from another post: "Of course God's word cannot err, but can the Bible?"

This is one of the main differences between Lutherans (excluding the ELCA) and most other denominations. We hold, teach, and confess that the Bible IS the inerrant Word of the Living God and the sole source and norm of all teaching in the Church. Therefore, the Bible cannot err because it IS God's Word.

Many protestant denominations (including the ELCA) hold that the Bible "contains" the inerrant Word of God. This definition by nature introduces the concept that there are portions of the Bible that are NOT the Word of God. The problem then extends to what parts are and are not the Word of God and who has the authority to make those distinctions.

The fact is that the Bible IS the Word of God, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

DaRev:preach:

[SPALATIN]

Quoted from another post: "Of course God's word cannot err, but can the Bible?"

This is one of the main differences between Lutherans (excluding the ELCA) and most other denominations. We hold, teach, and confess that the Bible IS the inerrant Word of the Living God and the sole source and norm of all teaching in the Church. Therefore, the Bible cannot err because it IS God's Word.

Many protestant denominations (including the ELCA) hold that the Bible "contains" the inerrant Word of God. This definition by nature introduces the concept that there are portions of the Bible that are NOT the Word of God. The problem then extends to what parts are and are not the Word of God and who has the authority to make those distinctions.

The fact is that the Bible IS the Word of God, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

DaRev:preach:
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. [Rev 21:16]

[Dr. Martin Luther]

In my day it was the papists we had to watch out for, and now we must watch out for the fluff...... harummphh!! ;)