A question for those who are ROCOR

[Michael the Iconographer]

Will a ROCOR priest bless an icon for a person who is OCA?

[Dust and Ashes]

Will a ROCOR priest bless an icon for a person who is OCA?
Why wouldn't a ROCOR priest bless an icon for a person who is OCA? Are they not in communion?

[Moros]

Are they not in communion?

They are not.

[xenia]

See, this is why I never have the nerve to stand in line to be blessed by the Russian priest at the ROCOR church I sometimes attend for vespers. He might and he might not, and I don't want to disrupt the tranquility of the meeting.

[Carl the Copt]

I would advise talk to them first and get to know them. The question is why would a member of an OCA parish need to have that done? Why not have them take a walk down to the GOA Temple and have a Greek bless the Ikon or another ethnic church?
Carl the Copt

[Dust and Ashes]

Is there a particular reason you would want your icon blessed by a priest not in communion with the Church? I don't understand all the ins and outs of who's in communion with whom etc, etc.

[Orthosdoxa]

The ban with ROCOR is on concelebration, not communion. This morning I attended Divine Liturgy that was celebrated by three Antiochian priests. If there were a ROCOR priest in the area, he would not have been able to officiate with them. But his parishioners would have been able to receive the mysteries.

To say that we're out of communion with ROCOR is not quite true. I have received the mysteries in a ROCOR church, and several other non-ROCOR Orthodox folks I know have as well. I have sort of a second spiritual father who is a ROCOR priest in Idaho. There ARE some priests who will not commune non-ROCOR's- I have a friend in northern Catlifornia with a ROCOR church right in his tiny little town, but the priest will not commune him, so he has to attend an OCA church an hour and a half away. However, that is not the experience of most I've talked to.

But the talks with Moscow have gone so well, up to this point - I will rejoice when they are able to concelebrate, too!!!

[MariaRegina]

I was told by an ROCOR priest that if I wanted to receive Holy Communion in the ROCOR, then I would have to go to Holy Confession to one of their priests and say all the required pre-communion prayers (Canons). According to the local ROCOR bishop, all communicants must go to Holy Confession before each Holy Communion. As a result, the priest often hears confessions during the Divine Liturgy while the choir is singing.

[Orthosdoxa]

Interesting. Yeah, we were told we did have to confess either the evening before or that morning before we could commune (as he knew ahead of time that we were coming). Which is no problem - the more I can receive the sacrament of Confession, the better!

[MariaRegina]

Interesting. Yeah, we were told we did have to confess either the evening before or that morning before we could commune (as he knew ahead of time that we were coming). Which is no problem - the more I can receive the sacrament of Confession, the better!

The difficulty I was having was that the ROCOR priest and my own Spiritual Father gave me conflicting advice, so that I could not go to the ROCOR priest for confession.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Is there a particular reason you would want your icon blessed by a priest not in communion with the Church? I don't understand all the ins and outs of who's in communion with whom etc, etc.

The whole schism between ROCOR and OCA to me while very real is a very minor thing, in the grand scheme of things. We are both Orthodox, we have no major doctrinal differences and there is atleast 1 OCA Bishop who was former ROCOR. We OCA also recognize atleast 1 ROCOR bishop as being a saint. There is not a single OCA Bishop or Priest who will question the sainthood of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and he was ROCOR. So to me, the schism is more political than anything. And while it is real, I know it is something which will be healed because ROCOR and the MP are already working on that. That being said, I have a very specific reason why I would have a ROCOR priest bless an icon for me in a very specific situation. I have an icon of the Nativity which I am about to finish and I will be attending Old Calendar Nativity Divine Liturgy with Matronushka later this week and I would like to have the Icon blessed during the Nativity Liturgy. If I wait to have it blessed by the OCA priest at my parish I will have to wait until next December to have it blessed, and I do not want to do that.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I emailed the ROCOR priest and he said he would be honored to bless the icon for me and that provided we keep the midnight on fast and have confessed prior to Divine Liturgy we (Matronushka and I) are permitted to recieve the Eucharist at Divine Liturgy.

[InnerPhyre]

What is the difference between ROCOR and OCA?

[Orthosdoxa]

ROCOR had a spat with the mother Russian church and schismed from them and consequently from all the churches that are in communion with her, which is all of us. However, it is a political problem, not a theological one. As stated, with very few exceptions, ROCOR priests will commune any Orthodox, ROCOR or not - they will not punish the laypeople for the sins of the higher-ups.

However, ROCOR is in talks with the Moscow Patriarchate, which from all accounts has gone quite well. We have every reason to believe this schism, which is not all that old, will be healed very, very soon. And I will be praising God when that happens!

Anyway, my explanation was a bit oversimplified, but that's the jist of it.

[gzt]

Although I suppose one should ask one's own bishop if it's possible to receive communion from a ROCOR priest unless you're certain that he would approve?

[InnerPhyre]

ROCOR had a spat with the mother Russian church and schismed from them and consequently from all the churches that are in communion with her, which is all of us. However, it is a political problem, not a theological one. As stated, with very few exceptions, ROCOR priests will commune any Orthodox, ROCOR or not - they will not punish the laypeople for the sins of the higher-ups.

However, ROCOR is in talks with the Moscow Patriarchate, which from all accounts has gone quite well. We have every reason to believe this schism, which is not all that old, will be healed very, very soon. And I will be praising God when that happens!

Anyway, my explanation was a bit oversimplified, but that's the jist of it.
Thanks for the explanation. I hope the schism is healed.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Thanks for the explanation. I hope the schism is healed.

The schism is healing. The MP and the ROCOR are in talks currently of reuniting with each other, and then comes the joy of figuring out if the ROCOR and the OCA will unite or just remain separate jurisdictions within the United States. As my dear Matrona put it "Orthodoxy is disorganized religion at it's finest!"

[prodromos]

ROCOR had a spat with the mother Russian church and schismed from them and consequently from all the churches that are in communion with her, which is all of us. However, it is a political problem, not a theological one.
It is a way over simplified view. ROCOR's existence was always only to be temporary and occured with the blessing, even the express order of Patriarch Tikhon.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/history/briefhistory.html

[33ad]

It is a way over simplified view. ROCOR's existence was always only to be temporary and occured with the blessing, even the express order of Patriarch Tikhon.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/english/pages/history/briefhistory.html


A resolution taken at the October 2004 MP council on ROCOR is here:

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_council2004/id/7814.html

Kolya

[vanshan]

ROCOR had a spat with the mother Russian church and schismed from them and consequently from all the churches that are in communion with her, which is all of us. However, it is a political problem, not a theological one.


Anonykat, you are the very first person I have ever heard say that ROCOR is in schism. I think you've been given bad information. Just because they are not in SCOBA, you cannot conclude that they are non-canonical. As was said above, St. John could not be recognized as a saint if he was in fact a schismatic bishop.

I belong to, what is seen by most as the most liberal/modern jurisdiction, in the sense of departing from many traditional practices, but a ROCOR priest had no problem blessing an icon for me and even will let me commune at his parish with proper preparation. I believe this is the official position of ROCOR, although some priests may not be in full compliance with this.

Basil

[Michael the Iconographer]

Anonykat, you are the very first person I have ever heard say that ROCOR is in schism. I think you've been given bad information. Just because they are not in SCOBA, you cannot conclude that they are non-canonical. As was said above, St. John could not be recognized as a saint if he was in fact a schismatic bishop.

I belong to, what is seen by most as the most liberal/modern jurisdiction, in the sense of departing from many traditional practices, but a ROCOR priest had no problem blessing an icon for me and even will let me commune at his parish with proper preparation. I believe this is the official position of ROCOR, although some priests may not be in full compliance with this.

Basil

Basil, I agree with you. I do not think they are in schism or non-canonical. There is a problem between ROCOR and the MP and that problem is being taken care of, as it should be. The ROCOR priest I talked to said he was honored to bless the icon for me and has no problem with either Matrona or me recieving the sacraments from him with proper preparation.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Basil, I agree with you. I do not think they are in schism or non-canonical. There is a problem between ROCOR and the MP and that problem is being taken care of, as it should be. The ROCOR priest I talked to said he was honored to bless the icon for me and has no problem with either Matrona or me recieving the sacraments from him with proper preparation.
I agree as well. I have also seen a ROCOR person take communion in an OCA church with no problems.

[Dust and Ashes]

The whole schism between ROCOR and OCA to me while very real is a very minor thing, in the grand scheme of things. We are both Orthodox, we have no major doctrinal differences and there is atleast 1 OCA Bishop who was former ROCOR. We OCA also recognize atleast 1 ROCOR bishop as being a saint. There is not a single OCA Bishop or Priest who will question the sainthood of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and he was ROCOR. So to me, the schism is more political than anything. And while it is real, I know it is something which will be healed because ROCOR and the MP are already working on that. That being said, I have a very specific reason why I would have a ROCOR priest bless an icon for me in a very specific situation. I have an icon of the Nativity which I am about to finish and I will be attending Old Calendar Nativity Divine Liturgy with Matronushka later this week and I would like to have the Icon blessed during the Nativity Liturgy. If I wait to have it blessed by the OCA priest at my parish I will have to wait until next December to have it blessed, and I do not want to do that.
Ohhhh, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. I've heard little bits here and there but never knew what the deal was. Thanks.

[vanshan]

:) Not to stir up controversy, but actually it was OCA that at one time was in schism, until it normalized relations with the MP and was granted autonomy, or recognized as a canonical autonomous jurisdication. I don't have all the facts on hand, but this was only cleared up a few decades ago--1/2 day in Orthodox Standard Time (OST). :)

This is a thing of the past, as they are fully recognized now, but this just goes to show that it really takes a decades or longer for these things to become clear. I guess the best advice is to just find a parish which you fee comfortable entrusting your spiritual growth in and then be obedient to your spiritual father.

Basil

[Orthosdoxa]

ehhh....huh?? I affirmed that ROCOR and non-ROCOR can and often do commune in each other's parishes - I am NOT saying ROCOR is not canonical, no way!!! As I said, I have a second spiritual father who is ROCOR, who communed my hubby and I without question (after confession). I think it was my choice of the word "schism" that led to this misunderstanding. Hmmmm..... it just seemed the simplest way to describe it - because we're not out of of communion with them, but our priests cannot concelebrate. Is there another word for such a situation? Sorry for the bad communication.

[vanshan]

Sorry, schism is a very dirty word for us. I guess just stating they don't concelebrate would be best, although I was not aware that this was forbidden. If other jurisdictions give the cold shoulder to ROCOR, I think those groups would be more subject to claims of acting in a schismatic way. You can't willy-nilly refuse concelebration with a group, can you? I would think some formal excommunication or anathema would have to be declared . . . but I have no knowledge of such procedures.

Basil

[Oblio]

Not to stir up controversy, but actually it was OCA that at one time was in schism, until it normalized relations with the MP and was granted autonomy, or recognized as a canonical autonomous jurisdication. I don't have all the facts on hand, but this was only cleared up a few decades ago--1/2 day in Orthodox Standard Time (OST).


Do you perhaps mean the autocephaly that was granted in 1970 to the OCA by the MP ?

[vanshan]

Yes, sorry. Can you imagine the confusion an inquirer would feel reading this thread?

[MariaRegina]

Sorry, schism is a very dirty word for us. I guess just stating they don't concelebrate would be best, although I was not aware that this was forbidden. If other jurisdictions give the cold shoulder to ROCOR, I think those groups would be more subject to claims of acting in a schismatic way. You can't willy-nilly refuse concelebration with a group, can you? I would think some formal excommunication or anathema would have to be declared . . . but I have no knowledge of such procedures.

Basil

Schism is not the correct word.

Any priest or deacon in the Orthodox Church must have the permission of both his biship and the bishop of another jurisdiction before being allowed on the altar of another church -- even if he is visiting.

So for example, if an Orthodox Priest from the OCA is traveling and visits a Greek Orthodox Church, he must have prior permission from the OCA bishop and the local Greek bishop before he can concelebrate a liturgy or hear confessions. Usually the priests arrange it all beforehand so that they can cover for each other and do a parish-swap during their vacation.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Do you perhaps mean the autocephaly that was granted in 1970 to the OCA by the MP ?

Yes the OCA was graned Autocephaly by Moscow in 1970. Autocephalic Churches are self headed, they have their own primate, while Autonomous Churches, or those in self-rule, while being self-ruling still have the mother Church to look after them (as is the case with the Antiochian Orthodox Church).

[MariaRegina]

Yes the OCA was graned Autocephaly by Moscow in 1970. Autocephalic Churches are self headed, they have their own primate, while Autonomous Churches, or those in self-rule, while being self-ruling still have the mother Church to look after them (as is the case with the Antiochian Orthodox Church).

Go to the Antiochian website at www.antiochian.org where they explain this.
The two terms are often confused.

Primate Saliba is the head of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America.

[Nickolai]

The word schism has NEVER applied to the ROCOR. for schism to apply, they have to be out of communion with all of Canonical Orthodoxy (I.E. ROAC, GOC, HOCNA). The ROCOR is still in communion with canonical Orthodox Churches (the biggest being the Serbians) It just happens that politics have complicated the communion situation in the Russian Church, But thankfully this is being worked on.