What kind of God would allow a deadly tsunami?

[Michael the Iconographer]

My priest emailed the following essay to me, and I thought I would pass it on to everyone else.

Tremors of Doubt
What kind of God would allow a deadly tsunami?

BY DAVID B. HART
Friday, December 31, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

On Nov. 1, 1755, a great earthquake struck offshore of Lisbon. In that city
alone, some 60,000 perished, first from the tremors, then from the massive
tsunami that arrived half an hour later. Fires consumed much of what
remained of the city. The tidal waves spread death along the coasts of
Iberia and North Africa.

Voltaire's "Poëme sur le désastre de Lisbonne" of the following year was an
exquisitely savage--though sober--assault upon the theodicies prevalent in
his time. For those who would argue that "all is good" and "all is
necessary," that the universe is an elaborately calibrated harmony of pain
and pleasure, or that this is the best of all possible worlds, Voltaire's
scorn was boundless: By what calculus of universal good can one reckon the
value of "infants crushed upon their mothers' breasts," the dying "sad
inhabitants of desolate shores," the whole "fatal chaos of individual
miseries"?

Perhaps the most disturbing argument against submission to "the will of God"
in human suffering--especially the suffering of children--was placed in the
mouth of Ivan Karamazov by Dostoyevsky; but the evils Ivan enumerates are
all acts of human cruelty, for which one can at least assign a clear
culpability. Natural calamities usually seem a greater challenge to the
certitudes of believers in a just and beneficent God than the sorrows
induced by human iniquity.

Considered dispassionately, though, man is part of the natural order, and
his propensity for malice should be no less a scandal to the conscience of
the metaphysical optimist than the most violent convulsions of the physical
world. The same ancient question is apposite to the horrors of history and
nature alike: Whence comes evil? And as Voltaire so elegantly apostrophizes,
it is useless to invoke the balances of the great chain of being, for that
chain is held in God's hand and he is not enchained.

As a Christian, I cannot imagine any answer to the question of evil likely
to satisfy an unbeliever; I can note, though, that--for all its
urgency--Voltaire's version of the question is not in any proper sense
"theological." The God of Voltaire's poem is a particular kind of "deist"
God, who has shaped and ordered the world just as it now is, in accord with
his exact intentions, and who presides over all its eventualities austerely
attentive to a precise equilibrium between felicity and morality. Not that
reckless Christians have not occasionally spoken in such terms; but this is
not the Christian God.

The Christian understanding of evil has always been more radical and
fantastic than that of any theodicist; for it denies from the outset that
suffering, death and evil have any ultimate meaning at all. Perhaps no
doctrine is more insufferably fabulous to non-Christians than the claim that
we exist in the long melancholy aftermath of a primordial catastrophe, that
this is a broken and wounded world, that cosmic time is the shadow of true
time, and that the universe languishes in bondage to "powers" and
"principalities"--spiritual and terrestrial--alien to God. In the Gospel of
John, especially, the incarnate God enters a world at once his own and yet
hostile to him--"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the
world knew him not"--and his appearance within "this cosmos" is both an act
of judgment and a rescue of the beauties of creation from the torments of
fallen nature.

Whatever one makes of this story, it is no bland cosmic optimism. Yes, at
the heart of the gospel is an ineradicable triumphalism, a conviction that
the victory over evil and death has been won; but it is also a victory yet
to come. As Paul says, all creation groans in anguished anticipation of the
day when God's glory will transfigure all things. For now, we live amid a
strife of darkness and light.

When confronted by the sheer savage immensity of worldly suffering--when we
see the entire littoral rim of the Indian Ocean strewn with tens of
thousands of corpses, a third of them children's--no Christian is licensed
to utter odious banalities about God's inscrutable counsels or blasphemous
suggestions that all this mysteriously serves God's good ends. We are
permitted only to hate death and waste and the imbecile forces of chance
that shatter living souls, to believe that creation is in agony in its
bonds, to see this world as divided between two kingdoms--knowing all the
while that it is only charity that can sustain us against "fate," and that
must do so until the end of days.

Mr. Hart, an Eastern Orthodox theologian, is the author of "The Beauty of
the Infinite" (Eerdmans).

http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110006097

[stillerfan]

i think that God is mad at the world for (overall) plunging deeper and deeper into sin and immorality...kinda like a big "wak-up call" imho...

[georgia123]

Thank you for posting this. The death count is now at 150,000 people. Please keep praying everyone.

Georgia

[stillerfan]

i heard 124k....that much in a few hours? :help:

[MariaRegina]

For my Spanish Literature course, we had to read a short story about the Lisbon tsunamis. It was so devastating.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I really think this has nothing to do with a wrathful God. I do not believe in a wrathful God but rather a loving compassionate one. God is not Calvin and Hobbes playing in the sandbox! This is just the unstable planet we live on. The earth is not some old dried up rock, but a living planet and thus the geological plates do shift and cause earthquakes. When that shift happens under the ocean it causes tsunami's. Tsunami's can be deadly especially when civilizations have built up the coastlines the way ours has. The same is true of when those plates run underneath a major Metropolis and they move causing huge devastation to that city, or when a volcano erupts in Washington State that everyone had thought was dormant and kills those who were vacationing near it. I think God allows these types of occurences to remind us of our need to be loving toward our fellow men and to remind us that we are not the Kings and Queens of the Universe that man often thinks he is. The key here is how we react to these occurences and that above all we keep faith in him.

[MariaRegina]

The scientists at the USGS are saying that the tsunami caused a wobble in the earth's orbit affecting the entire earth.

Remember - every action causes an equal and opposite reaction.

[stillerfan]

yeah heard that too.....but, has the earth's orbit "returned to normal"?

[Michael the Iconographer]

The scientists at the USGS are saying that the tsunami caused a wobble in the earth's orbit affecting the entire earth.

Remember - every action causes an equal and opposite reaction.

Be careful when Aria starts quoting the Laws of Physics! :D

Anyways, 9.0 is a very strong earthquake, a major techtonic movement! I would suspect it would cause a change in the earth's orbit for atleast a short time. On a much sadder note, I would not be surprised if the total death toll ended up somewhere closer to a quarter of a million people dead from this catastrophy! :( Lord, Have Mercy. :crosseo: :prayer: :crosseo:

[MariaRegina]

They are saying that starvation, thirst and disease will take a bigger toll of deaths.

Indeed,

Lord have mercy on us and save us.

[Oblio]

yeah heard that too.....but, has the earth's orbit "returned to normal"?

And if not, will we need a New New Calendar :eek:

[Michael the Iconographer]

And if not, will we need a New New Calendar :eek:

Stop it! You are going to make me have an asthma attack from laughing!

[MariaRegina]

And if not, will we need a New New Calendar :eek:

If the earth's day is shortened by 3 microseconds - which the report said, then there is no need yet of a new calendar, but that brings up an interesting question:

If another quake or event triggers further wobblings in the earth's orbit and further shortening or lengthening of the daily cycle, then perhaps we would need a new calendar -- in which case both the Old Calendarists and the New Calendarists of the world will have to get together and figure this out.

Perhaps God is sending us a message? After all, His time doesn't change, our's does.

Perhaps thinking in the eternal presence will bring us back to God as a nation, and as a world.

Interesting thought, Reader Christopher!

Happy New Year

[Maggie893]

I think God allows these types of occurences to remind us of our need to be loving toward our fellow men and to remind us that we are not the Kings and Queens of the Universe that man often thinks he is. The key here is how we react to these occurences and that above all we keep faith in him.
I totally agree with this line.

Something I found interesting in the article you posted. The author says "We are permitted only to hate death and waste and the imbecile forces of chance that shatter living souls, to believe that creation is in agony in its
bonds, to see this world as divided between two kingdoms--knowing all the
while that it is only charity that can sustain us against "fate," and that
must do so until the end of days."

I'm not a big believer in "chance" as a force in the world. Defined by Merriam-Webster in this context as : 1 a : something that happens unpredictably without discernible human intention or observable cause b : the assumed impersonal purposeless determiner of unaccountable happenings

As I see it God is the ultimate power, He in turns give power to humans and to Satan. To give power to "chance" is an odd concept to me. Chance isn't a created thing. It has no substance. It's simply a word to describe what what we can't explain. I would agree with the author that we can't be about speaking for God in these situations but I don't like to give power to something that doesn't really exist. That is futile and leads people to believe that there are things outside of God's control. Just my 2 cents.

Great thread.

[lovemysoldier]

I love that no matter how hard we get hit by the enemy, God's love always triumphs. God thwarts the devil's attempts to destroy our faith by allowing trials and tragedies to refine our spirits and bring us closer together. The world has banded together to help ease the suffering. Donations have soared to record numbers and prayers have not stopped. Praise God!

[prodromos]

Another take on the disaster.

http://www.american.edu/TED/thaitour.htm
Tourism in Thailand
(THAITOUR Case)

Case Number: 336

Case Mnemonic: THAITOUR

Case Name: Thailand Tourism

A. IDENTIFICATION:

1. The Issue "It is easy to see why Thailand has become the most popular tourist destination in South East Asia. Visually stunning, it sums up quixotic images of every man's Asia: gilded temples, lush paddy fields, exotic foods and gracious, smiling people. Land of Smiles is a common description of Thailand"(1). Thailand has much to offer - from beautiful white sand beaches in the South to trekking among the hill tribes in the North. The increasing ease and inexpensive price of traveling to and within Thailand, has led to a major increase in the number of tourists flocking to this Southeast Asian nation annually. Unfortunately The negative environmental, cultural, and biological impact of tourism in Thailand is increasing, as the government has been fairly lax in dealing with the numerous problems.Sex-Tourism

Another important issue related to tourism in Thailand is prostitution and the growth of the sex trade to satisfy foreign travelers, many of whom come to Thailand on sex tour package trips. This phenomena began in the 1960s mainly with American soldiers stationed in Vietnam who came to Thailand for R&R vacations. In the early 1980s the number of Thai prostitutes was estimated at 1 million; there were 400,000 more women than men in Bangkok, the country's capital, and 89% of all tourists were male (14). The World Health Organization estimated that between 45, 000 to 50, 000 Thais had AIDS in 1989, and that possibly one out of every two prostitutes in the Northern region was infected with the disease. The AIDS problem, as well as the prostitution issue was left untouched for many years for fear of harming the tourism industry. The growing recognition, however, of the long term effects of such a policy has led to greater efforts to curb sex tourism and to initiate AIDS education and precautionary measures such as distributing condoms and issuing health cards (15).
http://www.andaman.org/book/Sane/Newsletter_2003-06/news_2003-06.htm
History of Tourism Development in Thailand

In 1967 the US Government made an arrangement with Thai Government to send its soldiers fighting the Vietnam War on R and R (Rest and Relaxation) vacations to Thailand. The American soldiers quickly nicknamed Rand R as I and I (Intercourse and Intoxication), taking advantage of the existing sex industry which earlier catered to the local people. In fact, Senator J. William Fulbright asked whether R and R is "an American Brothel".

The sixteen million dollars spent by the American Soldiers in 1967 gave a boost both to the Thai economy and the sex trade. In early 1980s the number of Thai prostitutes was estimated at one million when population of Thailand was only 45 millions. There were 400,000 more women than men in Bangkok, the Country's capital, and 89% of all tourists were male.

Once Vietnam War was over, the American soldiers went home, and this revenue gap was quickly bridged by promotion of tourism. The ready availability of sex workers transformed the character of tourism from a nature and culture oriented one to the sex oriented one.

The World Health Organization estimated that between 45,000 to 50,000 Thai people had AIDS in 1989, and that possibly one out of every two prostitutes in the Northern region was infected with the disease. The AIDS problem as well as the prostitution issue was left untouched for many yeas for fear of harming the tourism industry.- Thailand had a population of 60.6 millions in the year 2000

- Thailand got 9.57 million tourists in 2000

- There were more than 1 million sex workers in the Country

- The number of Child prostitutes was estimated between 200,000 to 250,000

- 9 out of 10 child beggars on the streets of Thailand are bought and sold to be smuggled over the border to Cambodia for sex trade

- Girls from Myanmar are regularly smuggled in and sold to the sex trade operators in Thailand

- In 1999, 66,000 people died of AIDS in Thailand

- In 1999, 755,000 people were living with AIDS or were HIV positive

- In 1998 a study reveals that tourism; heavily dependant on the sex industry brings in four billion dollars annually.
The Phuket Connection

(A note submitted by SANE to Dr. Sanat Kaul, the then Chief Secretary in 1993)

Phuket, a tiny group of once-green Islands in a once-aqua marine sea in Thailand gets a million tourists a year. Even three decades ago, Phuket was green, hilly and self sustaining with a substantial population of indigenous people, the sea-gypsies, who were traditionally fishermen. Phuket means hilly in the local language but today Phuket is as flat as a table. The high lands were cut for filling the low lands and mangroves for property development, mainly for the tourist trade. The local farmers were tempted or coerced into selling their paddy land for development of five star hotels and golf courses. The bureaucracy is corrupt to such an extent that posh hotels owned by transnationals were permitted to block public roads, cut off access to public beaches and even construct hotels inside proclaimed National Parks, all against the laws of the land.

Today, Phuket boasts of homosexual clubs, transvestite clubs and rampant flesh-trade. It is a heaven for pedophiles. Child prostitution in Phuket beats any other destination in the world. A Neon-sign in Phuket openly proclaims "Uncle Charlie's boys for men".

Phuket, like Andamans, although enjoying a high rainfall is short of fresh water. The available water traditionally used for rice cultivation is today taken away by the five star hotels and golf courses to maintain their lawns of imported grass. The Govt. had appealed to the remaining rice farmers to forego a second rice crop as the precious water was needed to maintain the lawns and the gold courses.

Ms. Prathima Vasan, former Joint Secretary of SANE visited Phuket recently and met the rural people. She learnt that former rice farmers who lost their land to Hotel Developments, today, grow a bit of hashish around their home and force their wives to produce a large number of children. They sell 3 or 4 daughters for child prostitution to enable the rest of the family survive.
http://www.phuketgazette.net/gazette/frontpage.htm
Island sees rising tide of child sex

Heading for a normal life? Or bound for a twisted living satisfying
the urges of deviants? Phuket's schoolchildren are at risk.
The penalty for statutory rape or sexual abuse of children under the age of 15 ranges from four to 20 years in jail. If the child is under the age of 13, the sentence can be life in jail.

Yet the child sex trade on the island seems to be booming, with child sex tours now promoted on the Internet.

As demand increases, so does supply. Porn earned 1,000 baht per customer, and had no idea how much her pimp made. Nowadays, she says, "there are more high school and college kids in Phuket doing the same thing, and they make a lot more than I did [as a child prostitute]."

Few of those schoolchildren are forced to be prostitutes. Most do it willingly ? after all, the demand is there, and the money is very good.
The clients come from all walks of life and all nationalities, from the stereotypical sex tourist " middle-aged, overweight, balding " to young, good looking, well-educated professionals to government civil servants.But on the supply side there is nothing mythical about the benefits. Young prostitutes can earn a great deal of money in a very short time.

One government officer who spoke with the Gazette on condition of anonymity, tells the tale of a superior who came down from Bangkok for a tour of inspection.

He wanted a young girl, so one of my colleagues managed to find a 15-year-old who was selling sex while attending her last year in high school.

She went to his hotel room and a few hours later I was asked to drive her back home. In the car I asked how much she made because I knew that my boss had paid the pimp 5,000 baht.

She said "It's 3,000." I asked her how she had become involved in the business. "Don't you have parents?" I asked. She replied, "Yes, but they don't know. Even if they did know, they wouldn't care anyway."

I was surprised by how much she made but what really shocked me was when she said that my boss was her sixth customers of the day. She said that on a good day she might have 10 customers. She made 20,000 to 30,000 baht every weekend.

Luke 13:4-5

[Michael the Iconographer]

Podromos,
Are you saying the earthquake and resulting tsunami's were the act of a God who is tired of the sinful ways of that region of the world?

[MariaRegina]

Podromos,
Are you saying the earthquake and resulting tsunami's were the act of a God who is tired of the sinful ways of that region of the world?

Apparently this is what a lot of people believe.

However the sexual trade and kidnapping/raping of children is increasing.

It is so sick.

Remember the 6.4 Northridge earthquake epicenter was the porn capital of the world -- and still is. That area is overdue for another big one. And the porn capital just rebuilt their damaged buildings.

O Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Apparently this is what a lot of people believe.

However the sexual trade and kidnapping/raping of children is increasing.

It is so sick.

Remember the 6.4 Northridge earthquake epicenter was the porn capital of the world -- and still is. That area is overdue for another big one. And the porn capital just rebuilt their damaged buildings.

O Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

So the Calvin and Hobbes view of God in the sandbox destroying everything he just built because it does not appease him is not all that inaccurate?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Calvin in the Sandbox.

[Marjorie]

I don't buy that theory, because Thailand was certainly not the only country affected. And if there were going to be an earthquake for punishing sin, I think where I live (northeastern US) would be seriously overdue.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Michael the Iconographer]

Marjorie,
I agree with you. I don't believe in the "sinners in the hands of an angry God" point of view.

[xenia]

You would be surprised at the kind of people who visit Thailand on these tours.

I had an embarassing thing happen a few years ago in my geography class. The topic was Thailand, and I was lecturing about Thailand's various industries, the main one being tourism. A hand goes up: What's to see in Thailand? Why so many tourists? So I answer truthfully that a lot of men go on tours to Thailand for immoral purposes. Like sex? Yeah, like sex. Then this other student puts his hand up and says this: My dad and some of his friends go to Thailand every year! What do you think he's doing over there? All I could think to say was "Evangelizing!" This poor kid's dad was a regular church-goer, but I do not believe he was a missionary. Poor kid.

[Matrona]

Another take on the disaster.

http://www.american.edu/TED/thaitour.htm

http://www.andaman.org/book/Sane/Newsletter_2003-06/news_2003-06.htm

http://www.phuketgazette.net/gazette/frontpage.htm



Luke 13:4-54 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

That is a sick and horrible thing to suggest, prodromos. This is somehow God's judgment visited upon Thailand?! You are positing the idea that God would hold one nation's sex trade against so many children and so many different countries that had nothing to do with the terrible things happening in Thailand?! That is so disgusting!

[MariaRegina]

Tsunamies - A Warning Call from God?

Perhaps!

Sometimes disasters make men think of their own end so that they can repent.

Therefore, out of evil, does come good. (This is scriptural.)

Is God evil? No.
Does God will evil? No.
Does God permit evil? Yes.

However a nun once tried to describe how God operates in very human terms:

She said if you were sitting on top of a high mountain and saw two trains coming at full speed on the one track below. You know that the trains are going to collide. God sees all and knows all, but does He intervene in our lives constantly, no! That would invalidate our free will.

Our planet is not tierra firma. We are standing on hot molten lava that could be hurled out of a volcano or a oceanic vent at any time. We whirl around in this universe with all kinds of space debris coming at us. Face it, things happen and God allows it. Yet Our Holy God is not a capricious god like allah, instead He is full of loving kindness.

Read what happened to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts. They were struck dead by God for lying to St. Peter -- a sin against the Holy Spirit -- they lied to the Holy Spirit.

Then realize that around 2000 A.D. (I'm not pc), the president of a Greek Orthodox Parish Council was struck dead by God -- paramedics words. This young Greek man had blasphemed and made jokes about not being able to find the body of Christ -- and this happened on Good Friday. Before the Priest could tell the man to be silent, that man had fallen to the ground with a massive coronary with no prior medical history. The doctor at the scene and the coroner who did the autopsy said his heart shouldn't have suffered that kind of attack. Everyone felt that God had stricken that man dead. Our God is Holy, Holy, Holy. IT WAS A WAKE UP CALL for that whole parish and the whole diocese.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Michael the Iconographer]

That is a sick and horrible thing to suggest, prodromos. This is somehow God's judgment visited upon Thailand?! You are positing the idea that God would hold one nation's sex trade against so many children and so many different countries that had nothing to do with the terrible things happening in Thailand?! That is so disgusting, I can't believe you would post something like that!

Thank you! I completely agree with you. That is why I was saying I don't believe in the Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God point of view, or that this was somehow God's vengeance on the world. It is good to have our Little Orthodox Warrior back!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Elizabeth, the fact that we live on a living rock which has molten lava at it's core and on which the techtonic plates are "alive" and slowly moving and that these plus the atmosphere can create some pretty nasty storms and natural happenings is very different from the idea that God uses these things to punish us. I agree with the first, God allows us to live through the consequences of the planet we live on, but I disagree with the idea that these things happen to us as punishment.

[MariaRegina]

Elizabeth, the fact that we live on a living rock which has molten lava at it's core and on which the techtonic plates are "alive" and slowly moving and that these plus the atmosphere can create some pretty nasty storms and natural happenings is very different from the idea that God uses these things to punish us. I agree with the first, God allows us to live through the consequences of the planet we live on, but I disagree with the idea that these things happen to us as punishment.

I didn't say that God is punishing us ... but that He allows things to happen so as not to interfere in our business. Otherwise, our lives would not be free but controlled like a bird in a bird cage.

How do you explain the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in St. Luke's Acts?

How do you explain the death of the young Parish Council President who died immediately after blaspheming our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ?

No, I never said that our God is a punishing God ... but He is a Holy God.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I didn't say that God is punishing us ... but that He allows things to happen so as not to interfere in our business. Otherwise, our lives would not be free but controlled like a bird in a bird cage.

How do you explain the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira in St. Luke's Acts?

How do you explain the death of the young Parish Council President who died immediately after blaspheming our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ?

No, I never said that our God is a punishing God ... but He is a Holy God.

I agree with you, but I totally disagree with the idea that this Tsunami was the result of God being angry with Thailand and therefor he let that part of the world have it! It was a natural occurence, and those things to tend to happen!

[MariaRegina]

Michael,

Did you read the accounts of the 1994 Northridge Earthquake?

There were several people, Catholic and Protestants who saw an angel near the Hollywood sign. This angel warned them of the impending danger and said that Heaven was offended at the amount of pornography that is corrupting our youth. The Porn Capital of the world, Northridge, California, was put out of business for about 6 months.

Was this just a coincidence?

Again, what about Ananias and Sapphira?

God does intervene in our lives .. but not to the point that He is constantly controlling us.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Michael, God does intervene in our lives .. but not to the point that He is constantly controlling us.

I agree with you that God does intervene in our lives. I can cite a very specific example of a time when God personally intervened in my life and made it really clear that it was HE who was intervening in my life. However, I am not sure that God specifically uses natural disasters to destroy people who are sinful and in serious error the way he did in the Old Testament. If he does, then maybe I have a bit too fogiving of a view of God?

[prodromos]

Guys, you all took my post the wrong way. How on earth did you interpret Luke 13:4-5 as God's judgement. Christ says plainly that those who died were no more guilty than anyone else in Jerusalem, so their deaths could not be because of their guilt and thus God was not judging them. Sheesh, get a reign on those passions will ya.

What I believe the point of this is (it was forwarded to me by an Orthodox priest), is that all of creation is bound to and effected by the sins of mankind. The earth, solar system, galaxy, universe and all that is in them share a common nature in that all are created and all of creation groans and cries out in response to man's misuse and abuse of what God placed under our authority. All natural disasters are ultimately a result of man's sin and innocent people die as a result of them all the time. God is not to blame and my post was not in any way suggesting He was, nor was it suggesting God's judgement. People died because the earth could not endure the irritation caused by evil and had to scratch itself to get some relief.

Please everyone make yourselves a nice hot cup of Bovril (no wait, that has beef in it and today is a strict fast*), okay a nice cup of camomile tea and just calm down.

John.

* unless you're Old Calendar ;)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Guys, you all took my post the wrong way. How on earth did you interpret Luke 13:4-5 as God's judgement. Christ says plainly that those who died were no more guilty than anyone else in Jerusalem, so their deaths could not be because of their guilt and thus God was not judging them. Sheesh, get a reign on those passions will ya.

What I believe the point of this is (it was forwarded to me by an Orthodox priest), is that all of creation is bound to and effected by the sins of mankind. The earth, solar system, galaxy, universe and all that is in them share a common nature in that all are created and all of creation groans and cries out in response to man's misuse and abuse of what God placed under our authority. All natural disasters are ultimately a result of man's sin and innocent people die as a result of them all the time. God is not to blame and my post was not in any way suggesting He was, nor was it suggesting God's judgement. People died because the earth could not endure the irritation caused by evil and had to scratch itself to get some relief.

Please everyone make yourselves a nice hot cup of Bovril (no wait, that has beef in it and today is a strict fast*), okay a nice cup of camomile tea and just calm down.

John.

* unless you're Old Calendar ;)

AMEN! :)

[prodromos]

On another note, I thought Iacobus' comment on a Reuters news article (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=7210560) was pertinant.
It's pretty sketchy, as press reports tend to be, but I was struck by the number of religions who were quick to blame God. *From my perspective, that's kind of disturbing.

From his blog (http://minorclergy.journalspace.com/) on Dec 30

[Iacobus]

On another note, I thought Iacobus' comment on a Reuters news article (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=7210560) was pertinant.


From his blog (http://minorclergy.journalspace.com/) on Dec 30

Thanks, John. That entry was actually a follow up to what I had meant to be a fuller treatment. Whether it succeeded or not is anyone's guess. Anyway, it was here (http://minorclergy.journalspace.com/?cmd=displaycomments&dcid=60&entryid=60), along with the one immediately after it where I expressed wonder and amazement at the response from the agnostics.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I've heard that many Muslim clerics are saying the tsunami was an act of an angry God who was punishing that area of the world because of the presence of Christian missionaries.:doh:

[MariaRegina]

I've heard that many Muslim clerics are saying the tsunami was an act of an angry God who was punishing that area of the world because of the presence of Christian missionaries.:doh:

That is to be expected. They believe that allah is a capricious god; therefore, Allah is not the same as our God.

[Michael the Iconographer]

That is to be expected. They believe that allah is a capricious god; therefore, Allah is not the same as our God.

AMEN! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Marjorie]

I don't think all Muslims believe Allah to be capricious; of course there are those who do and there are suras of the Qur'an which can be used to advocate this but the same thing could be said of Christianity.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[MariaRegina]

I don't think all Muslims believe Allah to be capricious; of course there are those who do and there are suras of the Qur'an which can be used to advocate this but the same thing could be said of Christianity.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Marjorie,

Where in the NT does it mention that our God is capricious? He is Holy, Steadfast and full of Loving Kindness.

[Marjorie]

I meant more that many Old Testament passages could be interpreted to show that God is capricious. Of course that interpretation is wrong, but the same thing could be said by Muslims about the Qur'an.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[MariaRegina]

I meant more that many Old Testament passages could be interpreted to show that God is capricious. Of course that interpretation is wrong, but the same thing could be said by Muslims about the Qur'an.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

From what I have read (in translation), The Quran is very explicit in saying that allah is very capricious and doesn't really care about men. For example, few will enjoy heaven -- martyrs are the only ones guaranteed heaven -- and males only. How women can accept muslim teachings is beyond me. Yet JWs have similar teachings with only the 144,000 who are first-born males of the 12 tribes being admitted into Paradise.

These two are such depressing religions.

[Marjorie]

Yes, I've also read the incriminating passages of the Qur'an, but I know from my encounter with the Old Testament before I became Christian that one must not take scriptural passages at face value. There are some scary OT passages that appear to show God advocating what we would never advocate. But we know-- from Tradition-- that this is not the case. And much of Muslim tradition interprets the Qur'an in less violent ways.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Michael the Iconographer]

Marjorie,
We have the New Testament which buffers the Old Testament view of God. There is nothing of the such which buffers the Quar'an view of God, is there?
Michael

[Marjorie]

So then do Jews believe in a capricious God? Did Mary believe in a capricious God because there was no NT? How about John the Baptist? Or how about the Maccabee martyrs? I don't think the great bulk of our Scripture (the Old Testament) has a need to be "buffered;" only understood according to Tradition.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Michael the Iconographer]

So then do Jews believe in a capricious God? Did Mary believe in a capricious God because there was no NT? How about John the Baptist? Or how about the Maccabee martyrs?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

I have a friend who was raised an Orthodox Jew and in practice is a conservative Jew and her view of God is alot less loving and fatherly than my view of God. Both Mary and John the Baptist knew Christ and Christ and thus they are not prime examples of how Jews viewed God. Furthermore the same argument can not be applied to JW's because they do have the New Testament and still have such a depressing view of God.

[Marjorie]

But you did not talk about the Maccabee martyrs (the latest Jewish saints who did not know Jesus, who were alive when basically all of the OT was compiled) or Isaiah or any of the Old Testament saints... did they not know and love God? Did they have a view of Him as capricious? And while Mary and John did know Jesus; they did not for their whole lives. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary, was her view of God capricious? How about St. Joachim, who according to Tradition died soon after Mary entered the Temple?

And I wasn't talking about the JWs... their traditions are scary indeed, but my point is that we can't say that all Muslims have those traditions just by one interpretation of their scriptures.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Topaz]

yeah heard that too.....but, has the earth's orbit "returned to normal"?

I heard it was permanently changed. :eek:

[Michael the Iconographer]

I heard it was permanently changed. :eek:

Great, just what we need, a 3rd calendar to really mess up the canonical status of Orthodoxy! :D

[MariaRegina]

Great, just what we need, a 3rd calendar to really mess up the canonical status of Orthodoxy! :D

Maybe a drastically changed orbit will mandate a new calendar that will unify the two camps. Let us pray.

[Topaz]

It seems to me God of the O.T. before destroying Sodom & Gomorrah made sure decent people made it out of there alive. Then with Noah and the Flood, they also were given warnings before the destruction. I have no problem with God making things right, if it in his will. As far as the tsunami being God's destructive power upon unrighteous people, I do not believe that. For one thing, there is no warning of this, or even prophecies to this event alone as the cause of their sin for the reason of it occuring.

However, in prophecy, is it not mentioned there will be earthquakes, signs, and such in the end times? What about Florida? They had some terrible hurricanes hit a few months ago, one right after the other. Our weather has gotten very strange in the past few years. I'm wondering if all together it fits in with prophecies of the end times. I say they should be added together, and in that case, we are all equally "responsible" for such occurrences. The days being shorter in the end times also seems to go with it. Well, just thinking out loud here. I'm no Bible expert about these things.

I do agree with you that the J.W. way of believing is depressing. :sigh:

[Suzannah]

Hi Topaz,

I agree that we should all be watchful of the signs that Christ told us to occur...It does indeed seem that some things are happening more often these days...however, as a sailor, I should point out that hurricanes in Florida are not exactly uncommon...in fact, they happen each and every year. Hurricane season in the South Atlantic, Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean generally last from around May to the end of November. That is each and every year....it's simply that in the last few years, the hurricanes that have hit coastal areas of that region, have seemed larger...but in fact, they are not. They are the same velocity/size, it is only that recently they have hit landfall at their peak.

As a sailor, I shudder in fear when I hear people say things like "Thank goodness, that storm/hurricane has moved "safely" out to sea". There is no such thing as "safely out to sea"....my friends and shipmates are out at sea and sometimes I am too, when these storms whip up. Also, islands are out at sea, and many of them are inhabited....these, because of their lack of land mass and wind break, are the most vulnerable places on earth....

So hurricanes are a normal occurence....they are not necessarily indicative of apocalyptic events....tsunami's however, being geologically connected, ARE, in my own private opinion..... Look for more quakes beneath the oceans.....look for more islands to be swept away....I believe that this will occur more frequently in the last days....this was just a preview.

[Suzannah]

For the benefit of those on the west coast, I should add this: don't get comfortable thinking that hurricane season is only a Florida thing...that same schedule, May to November includes the Mexican Riviera and parts of So. California....be careful...
:hug:

[MariaRegina]

It seems to me God of the O.T. before destroying Sodom & Gomorrah made sure decent people made it out of there alive. Then with Noah and the Flood, they also were given warnings before the destruction. I have no problem with God making things right, if it in his will. As far as the tsunami being God's destructive power upon unrighteous people, I do not believe that. For one thing, there is no warning of this, or even prophecies to this event alone as the cause of their sin for the reason of it occuring.

However, in prophecy, is it not mentioned there will be earthquakes, signs, and such in the end times? What about Florida? They had some terrible hurricanes hit a few months ago, one right after the other. Our weather has gotten very strange in the past few years. I'm wondering if all together it fits in with prophecies of the end times. I say they should be added together, and in that case, we are all equally "responsible" for such occurrences. The days being shorter in the end times also seems to go with it. Well, just thinking out loud here. I'm no Bible expert about these things.

I do agree with you that the J.W. way of believing is depressing. :sigh:


I never before thought that the saying about the days being shortened could have a double meaning:

The time would be shortened -- Christ will come soon.

The actual day would be shortened -- the calendar would have to be amended.

[MariaRegina]

For the benefit of those on the west coast, I should add this: don't get comfortable thinking that hurricane season is only a Florida thing...that same schedule, May to November includes the Mexican Riviera and parts of So. California....be careful...
:hug:

Dear Suzannah .. please pray for us. Those of you in Nevada are also at risk during the winter. Do you remember reading about the Hurricane that hit California and went into Reno in 1955? As a small child I saw Virginia Street where only the tops of the parking meters were visible. All the shops had sand bags in front. The Truckee River overflowed and the city was separated for a time because we couldn't cross the bridges. The airport was 7 feet under water, so no planes could land. Those were tough times.

What just hit California was a double whammie -- an arctic storm from the Pacific NW and a tropical depression (read possible Hurricane) from the South Pacific. We are really drenched here now and the specialist from Pasadena said that an earthquake now could trigger massive land slides ... so all the people who live in the mountains are on alert.

Please pray for us as we have a massive storm system approaching California with flash flood and mudslide warnings. This system is approaching and clouds are already overhead with the barometer dropping. Sometimes these massive systems just spiral and hang around for a whole week dumping their cargo.

[xenia]

Please pray for us as we have a massive storm system approaching California with flash flood and mudslide warnings. This system is approaching and clouds are already overhead with the barometer dropping. Sometimes these massive systems just spiral and hang around for a whole week dumping their cargo.

Those clouds are over our house too and they are expecting 70 MPH winds.

[MariaRegina]

Those clouds are over our house too and they are expecting 70 MPH winds.

Gale winds. Pray for sailors.

[Theophorus]

But you did not talk about the Maccabee martyrs (the latest Jewish saints who did not know Jesus, who were alive when basically all of the OT was compiled) or Isaiah or any of the Old Testament saints... did they not know and love God? Did they have a view of Him as capricious? And while Mary and John did know Jesus; they did not for their whole lives. When the angel Gabriel came to Mary, was her view of God capricious? How about St. Joachim, who according to Tradition died soon after Mary entered the Temple?

And I wasn't talking about the JWs... their traditions are scary indeed, but my point is that we can't say that all Muslims have those traditions just by one interpretation of their scriptures.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

I have come across a few scattered things about the Essenes, but would value your input on them. From what I have read their tradition had a view of God that was closer to the Christian view.

[Matrona]

a tropical depression (read possible Hurricane) from the South Pacific.

Aria, there is no way you can call a tropical depression a "possible hurricane". TD's can grow up into hurricanes or be a remnant from a hurricane, but a TD has the same effect as a bad thunderstorm, whereas even a cat-1 hurricane is much, much worse.

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/hurr/stages/home.rxml

[MariaRegina]

Aria, there is no way you can call a tropical depression a "possible hurricane". TD's can grow up into hurricanes or be a remnant from a hurricane, but a TD has the same effect as a bad thunderstorm, whereas even a cat-1 hurricane is much, much worse.

http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/hurr/stages/home.rxml

I was saying that tongue in cheek. The winds, floods and tornadoes spawned by that system were devastating. And yes, we do have tornadoes in California.

[Topaz]

Thank you! I completely agree with you. That is why I was saying I don't believe in the Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God point of view, or that this was somehow God's vengeance on the world. It is good to have our Little Orthodox Warrior back!

This is perhaps only my opinion, but...

I don't believe God "caused" this to happen, certainly not for reasons of some sort of punishment. It is true, however, that God will see it through, he will work his Spirit with these people, he will cause good to come of it, by His will, with his timing.

I never blamed God for my downfalls (more often than not they were from my own doing), but God has certainly brought me out of them. Does this make any sense? I hope? :holy:

[Michael the Iconographer]

This is perhaps only my opinion, but...

I don't believe God "caused" this to happen, certainly not for reasons of some sort of punishment. It is true, however, that God will see it through, he will work his Spirit with these people, he will cause good to come of it, by His will, with his timing.

I never blamed God for my downfalls (more often than not they were from my own doing), but God has certainly brought me out of them. Does this make any sense? I hope? :holy:

Yes that makes perfect sense. God has not caused many of the things which have happened in my life, but he definitely has seen me through them! In all things the grace of God will prevail!

[Col]

No-one knows the number of their days, there is no guaranteed life-span.
Death is all part of life, we are all going to die someday, maybe today maybe tomorrow, maybe in 40 years, no-one knows. It might be from cancer, heart disease, car accident, bus, fall, lightening, drowning, fire, food poisoning and so on. All death is sad, all death is tragic, however, death in itself should always be expected at some stage sooner or later.
I believe the reason that we in the west have so much difficulty coping with death, is that we don't talk about it enough and don't incorporate it into our life. It amazes me when people talk about it that they find it so unusual that someone has died. And so often people seem to take the attitude that, it is a shame, or how sad, as if its not going to happen to them but they feel sorry for someones misfortune, as if they had their car stolen or something. Its not misfortune, its life, and it will come to us all.
It is not the days in your life that count, but the life in your days.

[Suzannah]

Dear Suzannah .. please pray for us. Those of you in Nevada are also at risk during the winter. Do you remember reading about the Hurricane that hit California and went into Reno in 1955? As a small child I saw Virginia Street where only the tops of the parking meters were visible. All the shops had sand bags in front. The Truckee River overflowed and the city was separated for a time because we couldn't cross the bridges. The airport was 7 feet under water, so no planes could land. Those were tough times.

What just hit California was a double whammie -- an arctic storm from the Pacific NW and a tropical depression (read possible Hurricane) from the South Pacific. We are really drenched here now and the specialist from Pasadena said that an earthquake now could trigger massive land slides ... so all the people who live in the mountains are on alert.

Please pray for us as we have a massive storm system approaching California with flash flood and mudslide warnings. This system is approaching and clouds are already overhead with the barometer dropping. Sometimes these massive systems just spiral and hang around for a whole week dumping their cargo.

Elisabeth: I pray for you, personally every day....but yes, I am praying for all of California and not just for "political" reasons...LOL ....I don't understand all the American politics over there, but I surely do understand the danger you are in from the weather....:hug:

I've read the international shipping lanes report and it isn't good...if you are on low ground near the coast, please consider a hotel in the mountains for a couple days...You'd be snowed in, most likely, but I would feel better and wouldn't worry about you as much as I actually do....

Pray for me, please..my cat bit me on the lip and it really hurts...I know that sounds flippant but it's true and it is very swollen...

In Christ,
Suzannah

[Suzannah]

No-one knows the number of their days, there is no guaranteed life-span.
Death is all part of life, we are all going to die someday, maybe today maybe tomorrow, maybe in 40 years, no-one knows. It might be from cancer, heart disease, car accident, bus, fall, lightening, drowning, fire, food poisoning and so on. All death is sad, all death is tragic, however, death in itself should always be expected at some stage sooner or later.
I believe the reason that we in the west have so much difficulty coping with death, is that we don't talk about it enough and don't incorporate it into our life. It amazes me when people talk about it that they find it so unusual that someone has died. And so often people seem to take the attitude that, it is a shame, or how sad, as if its not going to happen to them but they feel sorry for someones misfortune, as if they had their car stolen or something. Its not misfortune, its life, and it will come to us all.
It is not the days in your life that count, but the life in your days.

Hi Col,

Just wanted to say I appreciated this post very much....I agree with you...I have lived in America for the last several years and the tendency you point out, is glaring to me, in this country. In Ireland, we have incorporated death and the concepts of death, into our very fabric of living....the "snug" at the pub is called so, because it is a reminder that we will fit "snugly" into our coffins....Reps (and Christian love) to you..

[Topaz]

No-one knows the number of their days, there is no guaranteed life-span.
Death is all part of life, we are all going to die someday, maybe today maybe tomorrow, maybe in 40 years, no-one knows. It might be from cancer, heart disease, car accident, bus, fall, lightening, drowning, fire, food poisoning and so on. All death is sad, all death is tragic, however, death in itself should always be expected at some stage sooner or later.
I believe the reason that we in the west have so much difficulty coping with death, is that we don't talk about it enough and don't incorporate it into our life. It amazes me when people talk about it that they find it so unusual that someone has died. And so often people seem to take the attitude that, it is a shame, or how sad, as if its not going to happen to them but they feel sorry for someones misfortune, as if they had their car stolen or something. Its not misfortune, its life, and it will come to us all.
It is not the days in your life that count, but the life in your days.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the Bible to rejoice at death, especially of those who have believed in the atoning power of Jesus. I'll have to look this up, but it is getting late this evening, so perhaps first thing in the morning. I'm tired. :o

[MariaRegina]

Elisabeth: I pray for you, personally every day....but yes, I am praying for all of California and not just for "political" reasons...LOL ....I don't understand all the American politics over there, but I surely do understand the danger you are in from the weather....:hug:

I've read the international shipping lanes report and it isn't good...if you are on low ground near the coast, please consider a hotel in the mountains for a couple days...You'd be snowed in, most likely, but I would feel better and wouldn't worry about you as much as I actually do....

Pray for me, please..my cat bit me on the lip and it really hurts...I know that sounds flippant but it's true and it is very swollen...

In Christ,
Suzannah


Dear Suzannah:

We are on high ground, but cannot go shopping as there are too many accidents and power outages. Several times today all the lights went out, just as we were cooking our food.

Please do seek medical attention as cat bites and scratches can lead to serious infections ... some have been life threatening. My doctor always prescribed an antibiotic for any animal bite. Please do seek aid.

How in the world did the cat bite your lip? Where you sleeping? Is she part Siamese? I can envision it. I've had cats bite me before, especially those cute Siamese. Ah Suzannah is sleeping....I shall seek revenge for that late feeding. Pounce. The deed is done.

Do you have any epsom salts that you can use? What I have done is this: I dip a clean washcloth into some hot solution and bathe the affected part with it several times a day until it is no longer swollen or painful.

Do take care. This is not a minor thing.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Michael the Iconographer]

Suz,
Please be careful with that cat bite! I had a dog bite wound 4 years ago that got infected and it hurt something fierce! I was almost admitted to the hospital because of it!
Misha

[xenia]

We are on high ground, but cannot go shopping as there are too many accidents and power outages. Several times today all the lights went out...

Same here. It's calm at the moment, but more is on its way.

Today a Bishop was coming to bless our church's piece of property where we are going to build a new church. I arranged to get some time off from work so I could attend but I just couldn't get there! We live on a peninsula and there's only so many ways to get from one side to the other. Way one was blocked with a fallen tree, so I turned back to drive through town only to be turned back by some kind of huge puddle up ahead that I couldn't see but had traffic tied up. So I never made it to the property blessing, although they probably didn't even have it in that weather. It would have been wildly exciting, though!

The electricy was out most of the afternoon at school.

[Col]

Hi Col,

Just wanted to say I appreciated this post very much....I agree with you...I have lived in America for the last several years and the tendency you point out, is glaring to me, in this country. In Ireland, we have incorporated death and the concepts of death, into our very fabric of living....the "snug" at the pub is called so, because it is a reminder that we will fit "snugly" into our coffins....Reps (and Christian love) to you..

Wow, I think that is lovely and very interesting about the "snug", I often wondered why it was so called.

Bless Ya
Col

[Suzannah]

Dear Suzannah:

We are on high ground, but cannot go shopping as there are too many accidents and power outages. Several times today all the lights went out, just as we were cooking our food.

Please do seek medical attention as cat bites and scratches can lead to serious infections ... some have been life threatening. My doctor always prescribed an antibiotic for any animal bite. Please do seek aid.

How in the world did the cat bite your lip? Where you sleeping? Is she part Siamese? I can envision it. I've had cats bite me before, especially those cute Siamese. Ah Suzannah is sleeping....I shall seek revenge for that late feeding. Pounce. The deed is done.

Do you have any epsom salts that you can use? What I have done is this: I dip a clean washcloth into some hot solution and bathe the affected part with it several times a day until it is no longer swollen or painful.

Do take care. This is not a minor thing.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

Nothing so innocent on my part, I'm afraid! I was giving her a bath...she's an outdoor cat ( a mouser) and she was really, really filthy with some unknown substance from the barn....LOL....I let go for just a second and as she was ABSOLUTELY LIVID WITH RAGE, she got me...:(

I think it may well have been accidental....although she was extremely angry, she is not normally "vindictive" or predatory (Iat least, not towards humans, and me in particular) she was twisting one way and I, another....poor thing! She's still not speaking to me because I am keeping her in until she is completely dry.

If the swelling does not reduce by tonight, I will go to the doctor....
Thanks for your prayers....

[Michael the Iconographer]

Nothing so innocent on my part, I'm afraid! I was giving her a bath...she's an outdoor cat ( a mouser) and she was really, really filthy with some unknown substance from the barn....LOL....I let go for just a second and as she was ABSOLUTELY LIVID WITH RAGE, she got me...:(

I think it may well have been accidental....although she was extremely angry, she is not normally "vindictive" or predatory (Iat least, not towards humans, and me in particular) she was twisting one way and I, another....poor thing! She's still not speaking to me because I am keeping her in until she is completely dry.

If the swelling does not reduce by tonight, I will go to the doctor....
Thanks for your prayers....

Not to make light of such a serious situation-and I hope you got it taken care of medically- BUT first Matrona has a fierce killer bunny rabbit and now Suzannah has a fierce killer kitty! I hope this is not contagious, it might infect Oliver and Brittany!

Ok, back to our little discussion of the Tsunami and how in the world God could allow such a tragedy to occur!