Luther and Mary

[JM]

I've read over the years that Luther continued to pray the Rosary, is this true?

[Spence06]

Hey, I know this is not my forum. I know this question was to you guys and not me. As I wont answer, just offer a link that I have bookmarked. Then I will run away;) .

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

Just Mr. Luther and some others talking about Mary. Okay, thats my sign to leave.

God bless you all!

-Neil

[JM]

I've seen those before, but praying the Rosary and believing Mary was pure are very different things. Did Luther pray the Rosary?

[SPALATIN]

I've read over the years that Luther continued to pray the Rosary, is this true?
Yes, I believe that he did. In fact there is a Lutheran rosary and a few of us here have discussed the subject a few months ago. I will let them explain it further.

[Tertiumquid]

I've read over the years that Luther continued to pray the Rosary, is this true?
Hi Street Preacher,

This quote comes from a Catholic website, "Moreover, the Rosary, as a physical object, is a sacred object, the presence of which in your home or pocket is, in a certain sense, a constant prayer offered to God, through Mary."


Now, i'm always amazed by how much people are interested in Luther's Mariology. It is an interesting subject. The following is an excerpt from my paper,
Luther's Theology of Mary (http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm)(James Swan)


LW43:39 says,

Therefore we should make the Hail Mary neither a prayer nor an invocation because it is improper to interpret the words beyond what they mean in themselves and beyond the meaning given them by the Holy Spirit.But there are two things we can do. First, we can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her (as one blessed by God).

About Luther "praying" to Mary-


In a sermon of August 15, 1516, Luther was to say, “O blessed mother! O most worthy virgin! Remember us, and grant that the Lord do such great things to us too.” In 1519, Luther still could exhort his congregation to “call upon the holy angels, particularly his own angel, the Mother of God, and all the apostles and saints”as a comfort in the hour when each was to face their own death. By 1522 things had changed. Erfurt Evangelists questioning Luther on the intercession of saints received this response,

I beseech in Christ that your preachers forbear entering upon questions concerning the saints in heaven and the deceased, and I ask you to turn the attention of people away from these matters in view of the fact…that they are neither profitable nor necessary for salvation. This is also reason why God decided not to let us know anything about His dealings with the deceased. Surely he is not committing a sin who does not call upon any saint but only clings firmly to the one mediator, Jesus Christ.



In the same year, Luther put together his Personal Prayer Book, including the traditional Hail Mary, which all Catholic prayer books contained. Luther though was to place the Hail Mary in an evangelical context, and this to the consternation of his critics. An early pamphlet criticized his prayer book as a “subtle mixture of poison with much that was good.” The “poison” was Luther’s evangelical interpretation of the Hail Mary, “which was bound to offend many who were accustomed to, the cult of the Virgin.”

Luther said,

Take note of this: no one should put his trust or confidence in the Mother of God or in her merits, for such trust is worthy of God alone and is the lofty service due only to him. Rather praise and thank God through Mary and the grace given her. Laud and love her simply as the one who, without merit, obtained such blessings from God, sheerly out of his mercy, as she herself testifies in the Magnificat.


But what does Luther mean by “through Mary”? Luther does not mean, “by praying to her,” but rather by thanking God for creating such a noble, blessed, person. The words of the Hail Mary are “neither a prayer nor an invocation” and “are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor” to God. The man who only a few years earlier called upon her, concluded that “those who bless her with many rosaries and constantly mouth the Hail Mary… speak evil against Christ’s word and faith in the worst way.” Their prayers to her are an evil deed against both her and her son. With this popular prayer, Luther reinterpreted it for his readers, again shifting the emphasis of praise to Mary to veneration of God alone.

Luther knew that prayers to, and faith in the saints violated the First Commandment. In his understanding, the role of faith or trust in the First Commandment determines whether one worships the true God, or an idol. To have a God is nothing else than to trust and believe in Him with the whole heart. This trust and the faith of the heart alone make either God or an idol. If faith and trust are “right,” then your god is the true God. If it is wrong, then you do not have the true God. That to which the heart clings is really your God. If your heart clings and entrusts itself to something God has made, then your faith is wrong, and you are caught in your sin, and you stand under the crushing condemnation of God’s law. Luther said,


No one can deny that by such saint worship we have now come to the point where we have actually made utter idols of the Mother of God and the saints, and that because of the service we have rendered and the works we have performed in their honor we have sought comfort more with them than with Christ Himself. Thereby faith in Christ has been destroyed.

As Luther’s thinking was transformed by a Christ centered hermeneutic, it was inevitable that the harsh judge and the silent idols would be replaced by the true God of the gospel. Christ the cruel judge who had to be appeased by “penance, confession, and works of satisfaction, (and) with the intercession of his mother and of all the saints,” was now Christ the “comfort us poor sinners in the most loving and effective manner.” One was no longer saved by “works, monkery, Masses, and saint worship but exclusively through this Christ.” For Luther, Mary was not a goddess or intercessor. She granted no gifts, and rendered no aid. The only one to cry out to was Christ.

Regards,
James Swan

[JM]

Thank you that was helpful.

[Tetzel]

Yes, I believe that he did. In fact there is a Lutheran rosary and a few of us here have discussed the subject a few months ago. I will let them explain it further.

Can you direct me to that discussion? I've not been here that long.

[ByzantineDixie]

Phoebe has a Lutheran Rosary thing she does...you might ask her.

Helmikaarina has something similar but different, called the Wreath of Christ. Her information is here.

http://www.rukoushelmet.net/English.htm

But check out this link.

http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html (http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html)

Click on The Blessed Virgin in the menu on the left, then on the new page, Jesus, Mary and Martin, scroll all the way down for the Rosary link.

Peace

Rose

[Dr. Martin Luther]

"Martin Luther opposed the rosary and the veneration of Mary as he perceived them as being used as a means for earning God's favor which he believed was impossible. God's grace is given, not earned. He opposed any prayer to any saint including Mary because he felt we should address God directly in prayer. While it is certainly in keeping with church tradition to ask others to pray with us and for us, and in this sense there is nothing wrong with asking the saints including Mary to pray for us, the problem was that in Luther's day the saints were perceived as being closer to God, and with their extra merits capable of granting special favors for those who invoked them in prayer. This Luther adamantly opposed. For him, God alone is the source of every grace. Nonetheless, he is reported to have said that certainly Mary prays for the Church.

"Luther did highly esteem Mary. He wrote a beautiful exposition on the Magnificat (the Song of Mary in Luke's gospel) in which he refers to her frequently as the Mother of God. The preface of that work includes the following:
"May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers, so that your Grace, as well as we all, may draw from it wholesome knowledge and a praiseworthy life, and thus come to chant and sing this Magnificat eternally in heaven. To this may God help us. Amen. — Luther's Works, vol 21, p. 298.



"In this writing he describes her as "Mother of God, exalted above all mortals." The writing is full of caveats that all glory needs to go to God. Mary is who she is by God's grace alone and not any merit on her part. About the title "Queen of Heaven" he writes:
"It is also necessary to keep within bounds and not make too much of calling her "Queen of Heaven," which is a true-enough name and yet does not make her a goddess who could grant gifts or render aid, as some suppose when they pray and flee to her rather than to God." (p.327.)



"Luther was able to honor Mary as Blessed Virgin, Mother of God, and Queen of Heaven, as titles appropriate to her by the grace of God, or as Mary put it, "He [God] has done great things for me." He certainly would not endorse some of the extreme forms of Marianism prevalent in the Catholic Church today, nor would he approve the totally lack of respect and understanding she receives from most Protestants. He upheld her faith in God's promise and her genuine humility, as examples to all Christians of what it means to trust in God, and in this way esteemed her as highest among all mortals."

[Tertiumquid]

But check out this link.
http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html (http://orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/menu.html)
Click on The Blessed Virgin in the menu on the left, then on the new page, Jesus, Mary and Martin, scroll all the way down for the Rosary link.

PeaceRose

Hi Rose,

I ran into this link a few days ago. I have a a few problems with some of the information from this website. for instance,


Why is Mary the "noblest gem in Christianity after Christ"? Luther accepted all the Roman doctrines concerned the Blessed Virgin: her status as Mother of God, her perpetual virginity, her sinlessness, her assumption into heaven. He even kept a picture of the Blessed Virgin in his private study.



The author should have done a little more research. for instance, Luther did not have a lifelong commitment to Mary's "sinlessness". I have found very very little material from Luther on the assumption. I have yet to read anything where Luther claims Mary was assumed into Heaven. Luther's picture of the "blessed virgin" was actually a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. Jesus was what was important. Luther commented,


"The child Jesus sleeps on Mary's arm; should he wake he would ask us what we had done and how we had lived."

Source: Smith, The Letters of Luther, 365


I have some questions for you (and others) about this link, but I have to go to work (as I like to call it) in the salt mines.


God Bless,

James Swan

[ByzantineDixie]

Hi Rose,

I ran into this link a few days ago. I have a a few problems with some of the information from this website. for instance,

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The author should have done a little more research. for instance, Luther did not have a lifelong commitment to Mary's "sinlessness". I have found very very little material from Luther on the assumption. I have yet to read anything where Luther claims Mary was assumed into Heaven. Luther's picture of the "blessed virgin" was actually a picture of Mary holding the baby Jesus. Jesus was what was important. Luther commented,


I have some questions for you (and others) about this link, but I have to go to work (as I like to call it) in the salt mines.

[/font]

Hey, James, ask away. But I will warn you...you'll get responses from across the spectrum. We tried to explain in the other thread that some Lutherans still hold to the more catholic understandings of Mary and some hold to the more distrinctly Protestant views. Naturally, how we read Luther will be colored by these views. There are Lutheran Churches throughout the world that have statues of Mary...and yes, ALWAYS with the baby Jesus in arms. Jesus is the focus but in focusing on Jesus we do not need to toss Mary aside as some of the anti-Romanists have opted to do. You know that from your reading. So when a Lutheran site tells us that Luther had a picture of Mary in his study...we Lutherans know what that means--the baby Jesus was in her arms.

I thought we had quoted you material on Luther's understanding of Mary's sinlessness in the other thread. I'll have to check. This understanding would be more in line with the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox...that at sometime prior to or at the conception of Jeus, Mary was made sinless by the Holy Spirit...NOT the Roman doctrine of the Immaculate Conception where Mary was born without original sin.

I can't comment much on the Assumption...I have also been looking into this. Others may have more information. I do know that if Mary remained sinless after the birth of Jesus and throughout her life then indeed she would not die but be assumed--because it is sin brings death...but I understand even the Eastern Orthodox believe she fell asleep first (died) and then was assumed.

Now one most important point...regardless of how Luther and Lutherans see Mary these beliefs are not dogma or articles of faith which impact salvation. This is an important distinction between Lutherans and Rome. (The East hold to this same distinction as well.) Luther was (and Lutherans are) fine with various pious beliefs and practices of the church catholic so long as they do not conflict with Scripture and our understanding of Christ and His work was not minimized, clouded, distorted or otherwise perverted.

...what was that wonderfully Lutheran phrase...Rome says we must, the Reformed say we mustn't, we say neither and do both!

Peace

Rose

[Tertiumquid]

I thought we had quoted you material on Luther's understanding of Mary's sinlessness in the other thread. I'll have to check. This understanding would be more in line with the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox...that at sometime prior to or at the conception of Jeus, Mary was made sinless by the Holy Spirit...NOT the Roman doctrine of the Immaculate Conception where Mary was born without original sin. Rose

Hi Rose,

I offered my opinion on Luther & the immaculate conception earleir on this board here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1154610-luthers-devotion-to-mary.html&page=10

see post #96.

I believe you and I agree here on Luther's perspective.

God bless,
James Swan