Ethnicity, Tradition and tradition...a metaphor

[Dust and Ashes]

Here is a metaphor that helps me in putting it all together.

The Church is like chicken and dumplins. There is a set recipe: Chicken, broth, dumplins, salt, pepper.

Now, me, I like some garlic salt in mine just for that little something different. And I like mine pretty thick but I understand some people like their's thin like soup. My dad likes a lot of black pepper in his and I can eat them that way but I don't prefer them that way. But I still recognize that thick or thin, salty or bland, peppery or mild, they are chicken and dumplins so my dad's c&d are in communion with my c&d because the fundamentals (forgive me for using that word :P) are there.

Now there's some people (no names) who bring these dishes to family gatherings and they call it chicken and dumplins when it is in fact some kind of casserole. Noodles are NOT dumplins and anyone who values the integrity of chicken and dumplins will not allow such a fundamental (I know but the word does apply here;)) change. I mean, however you like your c&d, if someone dumps a cup of sugar in the pot, it's not the same anymore.

The dish essentially remains the same, even though there is some room for traditions to be shifted to suit the culture. Now, if you go after a Tradition and replace chicken with beef, it's not the same dish anymore.

So, whether you're a purist like me who demands a thick broth, chewy dumplins, etc. or if you're one of those fringe groups with fluffy dumplins floating in mostly soup (borderline schismatics!) we still enjoy our chicken and dumplins and the dish is still recognizable.

I know this is very tongue in cheek and I attribute it to goofiness from lack of sleep but the metaphor really does help me understand the unity of the Church and how ethnicity, Tradition and traditions all fit together.

Now, I think I'll go grab a bite to eat. That made me hungry. :D

[Michael the Iconographer]

Now, I think I'll go grab a bite to eat. That made me hungry. :D

I am glad I just ate breakfast because your metaphor has so much food involved that it would have made me hungry too!

[Michael the Iconographer]

FS, I think what you are saying is that while we may all have slightly different flavors to our Orthodoxy as long as we keep the premise of the faith in tact it is ok for us to each have a slightly different flavor to our faith? That would be a great argument for why there should be an American Orthodox Church because we are all Americans and America has had Orthodoxy long enough and has a big enough Church that we should finally be allowed by the rest of Orthodoxy to express Orthodoxy with an American voice.

[Dust and Ashes]

FS, I think what you are saying is that while we may all have slightly different flavors to our Orthodoxy as long as we keep the premise of the faith in tact it is ok for us to each have a slightly different flavor to our faith? That would be a great argument for why there should be an American Orthodox Church because we are all Americans and America has had Orthodoxy long enough and has a big enough Church that we should finally be allowed by the rest of Orthodoxy to express Orthodoxy with an American voice.
Exactly. I remember reading of a young man who was searching for the True Church and he chose the RC because of the perceived division in the Church due to so many Orthodox Churches being recognized by the ethnic origins of the parishioners. There's nothing wrong with having some ethnic flavor to your Faith. I think that's why the Church has always placed a priority on translating the liturgy into the language of the people, so they can make the Faith their own.

[Eusebios]

Brad,
You never cease to crack me up dude! rotflmao!!
In Xp,
Eusebios.
ps- I understand and agree with the point of your post too!

[countrymousenc]

Brad, where are you from? That was spoken like a true Southerner! Really, very good analogy. :)

[Dust and Ashes]

Brad, where are you from? That was spoken like a true Southerner! Really, very good analogy. :)
Tupelo, MS. Birthplace of Elvis Presley! Hail to the King, baby!

Home of fried green tomatoes, grits 'n turnip greens. (not served together, of course)

[vlinder]

To Life Immortal

oooooooo what a yummy post!

Chicken and dumplings! Don't forget the red beans and tomato rice; Southern fried chicken and iced tea! Sweet potato or pecan pie for dessert. :D

I agree; it's high time for an American Orthodox church.

Peace and Long Life
~*~ Vlinder/Balafenn ~*~

[Theophorus]

Chicken and dumplings? But you do realize that C&D should be accompanied with sweet tea only. Anything else is embracing a heterodox mindset.

[Marjorie]

*proud Northern girl looks around in confusion* :)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Wiffey]

That reminds me...I haven't made chicken & dumplings since before Christmas lent...hmmm...

And I totally agree that calling noodles dumplings = heresy! Gotta make it from scratch!

[twin]

"FS, I think what you are saying is that while we may all have slightly different flavors to our Orthodoxy as long as we keep the premise of the faith in tact it is ok for us to each have a slightly different flavor to our faith? That would be a great argument for why there should be an American Orthodox Church because we are all Americans and America has had Orthodoxy long enough and has a big enough Church that we should finally be allowed by the rest of Orthodoxy to express Orthodoxy with an American voice."
Well, Michael, I don't agree with you at all. I come from a convert family, and have been around converts all my life, so I'm not saying this because I'm ethnic. Rather, I just am NOT impressed with the state of Orthodoxy in America.
We converts have in my opinion, a very bad tendancy to go off in extremes of one sort or the other. We haven't for the most part developed an Orthodox outlook, which is very necessary before going off on our own. Look at our churches. I have heard the same cry from every priest I've met, no matter what synod, Where are our young people? Whether coming from convert or ethnic, the majority of them are really getting sucked into the world to the exclusion of God. Where are our STABLE Orthodox monasteries? So many monasteries in America that didn't have people from the old country, no matter which one, have gone off the deep end. Even ones that have had people from the old country have gone the same direction. I have often heard that the strength of the Church can be measured by it's monastics. Well, in that case, we are terribly weak! How many of us know amoung our Orthodox friends people that want to become monks or nuns? If we do know someone, it's usually just one or two. I don't think that we Americans are terribly stable spiritually yet. I know that other Orthodox countries also have a problem with the youth, yet when they became independent the level of piety was much higher. I think our level also has to be raised before we can trust ourselves enough to be on our own.
We have some of the most liberal Orthodox churches in the world. I think we need to be toned down by countries that have in their culture more of an Orthodox outlook. I love Russia very much!!! Yet the ONLY reason I love Russia is because of her Orthodoxy, much of which she retains in her culture as Happy Orthodox said in another thread. We can and must learn from those who have been Orthodox longer before we think we are ready to go off on our own.

[Dust and Ashes]

The purpose of my post was not to espouse an American Orthodox Church. I'm too young in the Faith right now to be thinking about things like that. My purpose was to make it easier for some of the inquirers to understand how the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Church (as well as every other culturally identified Orthodox Church) are the same Church even though there are many apparent differences culturally and ethnically. That's ALL I was trying to say with my little analogy. :sigh:

[Orthosdoxa]

Oy.

Why don't we all just try to be Orthodox, lead our families in Orthodoxy and create our mini-kingdoms, and pray for each other, rather than criticize an entire country, an entire vast group of Christians, as not being how we think they should be?

Sorry, but positions like this bug me. Anyone can criticize, but so few actually make a difference, and instead just discourage others. Especially me.

Forgive me,
LK

[Orthosdoxa]

FS, your analogy was just fine.

[twin]

You're right, I shouldn't criticize and do nothing, and I was too vehement. And I'm sorry I discouraged you. I wasn't trying to just criticize but to say that we aren't ready to be on our own, and we do need ethnic Orthodox people around. I'm not saying that we never can be on our own but just not for a long while.

[Orthosdoxa]

Thank you for your apology.

And I'm just going to let the Bishops decide when we're ready. :) Right now, I'm just trying not to screw up too much, and to share the Good News with others when I can.

[twin]

Thank you for your forgiveness!
And yes you're right, it's the bishops' decision that matters, not personal opinions. I should have been less dogmatic about my personal opinion.

[Michael the Iconographer]

"FS, I think what you are saying is that while we may all have slightly different flavors to our Orthodoxy as long as we keep the premise of the faith in tact it is ok for us to each have a slightly different flavor to our faith? That would be a great argument for why there should be an American Orthodox Church because we are all Americans and America has had Orthodoxy long enough and has a big enough Church that we should finally be allowed by the rest of Orthodoxy to express Orthodoxy with an American voice."
Well, Michael, I don't agree with you at all. I come from a convert family, and have been around converts all my life, so I'm not saying this because I'm ethnic. Rather, I just am NOT impressed with the state of Orthodoxy in America.
We converts have in my opinion, a very bad tendancy to go off in extremes of one sort or the other. We haven't for the most part developed an Orthodox outlook, which is very necessary before going off on our own. Look at our churches. I have heard the same cry from every priest I've met, no matter what synod, Where are our young people? Whether coming from convert or ethnic, the majority of them are really getting sucked into the world to the exclusion of God. Where are our STABLE Orthodox monasteries? So many monasteries in America that didn't have people from the old country, no matter which one, have gone off the deep end. Even ones that have had people from the old country have gone the same direction. I have often heard that the strength of the Church can be measured by it's monastics. Well, in that case, we are terribly weak! How many of us know amoung our Orthodox friends people that want to become monks or nuns? If we do know someone, it's usually just one or two. I don't think that we Americans are terribly stable spiritually yet. I know that other Orthodox countries also have a problem with the youth, yet when they became independent the level of piety was much higher. I think our level also has to be raised before we can trust ourselves enough to be on our own.
We have some of the most liberal Orthodox churches in the world. I think we need to be toned down by countries that have in their culture more of an Orthodox outlook. I love Russia very much!!! Yet the ONLY reason I love Russia is because of her Orthodoxy, much of which she retains in her culture as Happy Orthodox said in another thread. We can and must learn from those who have been Orthodox longer before we think we are ready to go off on our own.

I think you tend to forget there was a time when the Russian Church itself was very young and inmature and in need of developing. I am not saying cut ties with the great Orthodox Churches of the world, but at the same time it is about time the rest of the Orthodox Churches let the American Church begin to develop her own Orthodox culture and let it penetrate American society. The cultural division amoung Orthodox in this country is a very bad thing. It is a crying shame there are something like 5 Orthodox Bishops in Pittsburgh, PA! There should be 1 Orthodox Bishop of Pittsburgh, PA and let the other 4 be in other centers of Orthodoxy across the midwest, such as 1 in Cleveland, Ohio! It is also a very bad thing that the bishops of the various jurisdictions don't work closely hand in hand with each other. Sure we have SCOBA, but how much more united and set on the same goals would our Bishops be if they were all working in the same Synod of Bishops?! I have a personal friend who refuses to become Orthodox until there is an American Orthodox Church free of the cultural bindings which are totally foreign to him (and to me as well). Again, I say it is about time the American Orthodox Church unite and end this non-canonical nonsense which has sprouted in this country and has done so mostly out of political greediness of the mother countries!

[twin]

No, I'm not forgetting that the Russian Church was at one point very immature. It too was under Greek rule for a very long time, as was Serbia, and all newly Orthodox countries. Russia was under Greece for centuries. So why should we be any different?
It's very disrespectful to our bishops here and in other countries to imply that they are all guided by primarily political or cultural reasons. That's simply not true. It's not a cultural problem, it's a theological problem. How can the bishops in America be united when there is such a huge difference about important things such as ecumenism, liberalism, and countless other things. Thaa't not just cultural.
I am aware of the canons that state there should be one bishop per city. However sliding over huge problems to create a fake union isn't going to solve problems. The bihops have cut communion with each other for valid reasons, and we can't say oh, it's just cultural. Who are we to say that?
I was thinking about what I said last night, and I'm sorry but I don't think I said anything out of line. I'm sorry if the way I phrased it was offensive, but Michael said something, and I disagreed with him and gave my reasons. I may have been and probably was too vehement.
Saying things like "the political greediness of the mother countries" is what I was objecting to. Most of those mother countires have a level of piety that we would do well to emulate. We are far far behind them and so why should we be on our own when we can learn so much from them, and have shown such a tendancy to go wrong without them.
I'm sorry if I offend you personally, I'm just disagreeing with you, not writing you off.
I'm starting nursing school on Monday, and will be leaving TAW. Thank you to all for interesting discussions, and please forgive me for the occasions when I've offended anyone.

[gzt]

The differences between ROCOR [etc] and the OCA are one thing, but the issues between the GOA, OCA, the Antiochians are another and are, I believe, what the people above were pointing to when they were lamenting the 5 bishops in Pittsburgh. There's no theological reason for at least most of the jurisdictions participating in SCOBA to stay apart.

[Michael the Iconographer]

It's very disrespectful to our bishops here and in other countries to imply that they are all guided by primarily political or cultural reasons. That's simply not true. It's not a cultural problem, it's a theological problem. How can the bishops in America be united when there is such a huge difference about important things such as ecumenism, liberalism, and countless other things. Thaa't not just cultural.

I suggest you read the history of the Orthodox Church in America (not meaning OCA here) and understand just what I am getting at! There is no reason for there to be 1. OCA, 2. Antiochian, 3. Greek, 4. American Carpatho-Russian, 5. Serbian bishops over one city, and no other Orthodox bishops for hundreds of miles arround!! That is non-canonical and a waste of good men and good minds! In all seriousness, you could have a SCOBA meeting in Downtown Pittsburgh and none of the representatives would have to drive more than an hour or two to get there!! How is that serving the Orthodox people of North America in any effective way??? We would go a long way toward unity of the EP were to just let the Greeks, OCA and Antiochians work toward the goal of one American Orthodox Church! I think if that were the case the rest of the smaller jurisdictions would gladly fall in line (no disrespect meant to the Ukranians, Serbs, Carpath-Russians, etc.)

[twin]

Ok, I finally understand why we're getting upset at each other. You see I'm from ROCOR, although PLEASE don't view me as representing it as I'm a completely unworthy specimen. I forgot you're from the Antiochians, or OCA, I forget which.
ROCOR has major problems with the attitudes and position of SCOBA, although they do NOT write them off as non Orthodox or taboo, or something. Anyway, when you wrote about the necessity for Orthodox American unity, I immediately thought of the huge differences between SCOBA and ROCOR, which cannot be swept aside, and which are totally not cultural. Since I'm not in SCOBA, I wasn't really aware that it's members aren't divided on theological reasons. Please know that I also grieve over the separation of the Orthodox Churchs in America, and pray that we are in truth united someday. It is a waste of strength for us to all be so divided. Only there must be true union between us.
As gzt said above, I guess I was reacting to the differences between the OCA and ROCOR. Since I'm not up in SCOBA history, I can't react to what's going on there. So we were reacting about different things.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Please know that I also grieve over the separation of the Orthodox Churchs in America, and pray that we are in truth united someday. It is a waste of strength for us to all be so divided. Only there must be true union between us.

I do not disagree with you on this matter. The schism between SCOBA and ROCOR is one that saddens me, and it makes me glad to see that ROCOR and the MP are making huge strides toward repairing their relationship.

I do have one side question, my icon of the Nativity will be done for Old Calendar Nativity and I will be attending Divine Liturgy with Matrona at a ROCOR parish so I am wondering if the ROCOR priest will bless my icon even though I am not ROCOR?

[twin]

Of course!!
I'm glad we do agree. Next time I should think more carefully before getting upset, and making others as well! Sorry!
By the way, where did you get that beautiful cross in your avatar, as I think it's called? I'm in charge of our church bookstore, and am having alot of trouble finding crosses that don't portray God the Father. Is it available for sale anywhere?

[Michael the Iconographer]

Of course!!
I'm glad we do agree. Next time I should think more carefully before getting upset, and making others as well! Sorry!
By the way, where did you get that beautiful cross in your avatar, as I think it's called? I'm in charge of our church bookstore, and am having alot of trouble finding crosses that don't portray God the Father. Is it available for sale anywhere?

Twin,
I wrote that cross about 4 years ago and it hangs above my bed. I can sell you prints of it if you like. If you are interested, pm me.