Law and Gospel

[xenia]

Hello Lutherans! :wave:

I have a question that only you can answer. What do Lutherans mean by the phrase "Law and Gospel?" I know what the Law is, and I know what the Gospel is, but I suspect you mean something uniquely Lutheran by the phrase "Law and Gospel."

Thank you !

-Xenia

[ChiRho]

Hello Lutherans! :wave:

I have a question that only you can answer. What do Lutherans mean by the phrase "Law and Gospel?" I know what the Law is, and I know what the Gospel is, but I suspect you mean something uniquely Lutheran by the phrase "Law and Gospel."

Thank you !

-Xenia


Law- all that is commanded or forbidden by God in Scripture.

Gospel- the Promises of Christ.


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Phoebe]

I think the sermons are supposed to represent both Law and Gospel. I never knew there was a label put on the sermons until coming here. We have our OT and Epistle readings, then the Gospel and sermon. The pastor also gives a brief history lesson in the sermon. (An LCMSer would have to elaborate for me.)

[Rechtgläubig]

LAW = :cry: :sigh: :eek:

GOSPEL = :D :clap:


Any questions? lol


http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm

[ChiRho]

LAW = :cry: :sigh: :eek:

GOSPEL = :D :clap:


Any questions? lol


http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm

:amen:

[ByzantineDixie]

The Law shows us our sin and teaches us that we can never satisfy the expectations and requirements of God's Law through our own effort. The Law condemns us to certain death and shows us the best we can do for ourselves is earn the fires of hell. Once we are broken by the law and realize that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, the Gospel is used to heal, soothe, comfort and provide hope (in the the biblical sense of certain expectation).

The Gospel is used to show us how God recognized our inability to satisfy His Law and how He sent is Son to fulfill it for us. Christ's sacrifice atoned for our failures and where there is faith in Christ, we need not fear the ravages of the Law.

It is important when speaking with someone to know whether to use Law or Gospel. Someone who is a unrepentent sinner needs a good dose of the Law until he finally understands and is crushed by his sin, then one would share the Gospel with him. Sharing the Gospel only to someone who doesn't think he needs it accomplishes nothing. The unrepentant sinner has no use for the Gospel message

Someone who is already broken and terrorized by his sin is in desperate need of the Gospel. Sharing a Law message with him has the potential to throw him into deeper dispair to the point he will not listen to the Gospel message.

A Lutheran pastor will almost always deliver a rightly distinguished Law / Gospel message when preaching to a group because there are usually both kinds of people in the group...but when talking one on one...some background information is generally sought so that before a message is given, one finds out which message is needed.

But I loved Recht's icon explanation! ;)

Peace

Rose

[SPALATIN]

The Law shows us our sin and teaches us that we can never satisfy the expectations and requirements of God's Law through our own effort. The Law condemns us to certain death and shows us the best we can do for ourselves is earn the fires of hell. Once we are broken by the law and realize that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, the Gospel is used to heal, soothe, comfort and provide hope (in the the biblical sense of certain expectation).

The Gospel is used to show us how God recognized our inability to satisfy His Law and how He sent is Son to fulfill it for us. Christ's sacrifice atoned for our failures and where there is faith in Christ, we need not fear the ravages of the Law.

It is important when speaking with someone to know whether to use Law or Gospel. Someone who is a unrepentent sinner needs a good dose of the Law until he finally understands and is crushed by his sin, then one would share the Gospel with him. Sharing the Gospel only to someone who doesn't think he needs it accomplishes nothing. The unrepentant sinner has no use for the Gospel message

Someone who is already broken and terrorized by his sin is in desperate need of the Gospel. Sharing a Law message with him has the potential to throw him into deeper dispair to the point he will not listen to the Gospel message.

A Lutheran pastor will almost always deliver a rightly distinguished Law / Gospel message when preaching to a group because there are usually both kinds of people in the group...but when talking one on one...some background information is generally sought so that before a message is given, one finds out which message is needed.

But I loved Recht's icon explanation! ;)

Peace

RoseGood Stuff Rose!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Jim47]

Gospel message

Someone who is already broken and terrorized by his sin is in desperate need of the Gospel. Sharing a Law message with him has the potential to throw him into deeper dispair to the point he will not listen to the Gospel message.

A Lutheran pastor will almost always deliver a rightly distinguished Law / Gospel message when preaching to a group because there are usually both kinds of people in the group...but when talking one on one...some background information is generally sought so that before a message is given, one finds out which message is needed.

But I loved Recht's icon explanation! ;)

Peace

Rose
There is no way to improve on what you have said, and Yes I like Recht's icons too, leave it to those youngen's to use sign language ^_^

I think one of the big differences between Lutherans and other faiths is that we use both law and gospil and know when to use them per Rose's explaination. The old saying go's, "You can't beat a dead horse" and then on the flip side "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Thats where The Holy Spirit is needed, because we are nothing more than mouth pieces he uses to deliver the message. :preach:

[Qoheleth]

Rose, very well said, as usual!

[CrossWiseMag]

Rose is a very violent person. Her posts always hit stuff right on the head. ;)

When Lutherans use the terms "Law" and "Gospel," they're not necessarily meaning anything different than other Christians. The difference is not so much about definitions, but about distinctions. If you get a chance, Xenia, check out a book called "God's No and God's Yes." That book is actually a condensed, modernized version of an old Lutheran classic by CFW Walther, called "The Proper Distinction Between Law & Gospel." (One of my Christmas gifts this year!)

What you see in a lot of Christian churches is a fundamental misunderstanding about how to apply Law and Gospel to people's lives.

One warning sign is when you hear someone say, for example, "The Gospel requires....______." When you hear these three words in that particular order, alarm bells should go off in your head, and if possible, you should pull a kazoo out of your pocket and make a loud "BZZZZTT!!" sound in the speaker's ear. That's because the Gospel doesn't require anything! The Gospel is the glorious news of Christ's saving work for us on the cross. It is the strong saving power of the Sacraments. It is Word of the eternal life offered to us by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. No more. Finito. End of story.

What is not the Gospel? Well, the Gospel is not that Christ came to have us live perfect lives, or to become sinless in this life, as many teach. It is not a piece of refrigerated bait to be tossed among sinners, luring them to church where we can pound them with the Law. The Law is necessary, yes. But in Lutheran churches, the Law is preached as a precursor to forgiveness. The forgiving work of Christ on the cross -- the very Gospel itself -- is the point at which God chose to contact fallen humanity. So everything -- even the Law -- is given to point back to Christ and His saving work on our behalf.

It is only through the preaching of this Gospel that believers are enabled to do truly good works. After all, anything done without faith is sin. So the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, after hearing the Law and how miserably we fall short, is the true impetus for good works in a Christian's daily life.

Sorry I'm so talkative today. Hopefully that makes sense to someone besides me.

[SPALATIN]

Rose is a very violent person. Her posts always hit stuff right on the head. ;)

When Lutherans use the terms "Law" and "Gospel," they're not necessarily meaning anything different than other Christians. The difference is not so much about definitions, but about distinctions. If you get a chance, Xenia, check out a book called "God's No and God's Yes." That book is actually a condensed, modernized version of an old Lutheran classic by CFW Walther, called "The Proper Distinction Between Law & Gospel." (One of my Christmas gifts this year!)

What you see in a lot of Christian churches is a fundamental misunderstanding about how to apply Law and Gospel to people's lives.

One warning sign is when you hear someone say, for example, "The Gospel requires....______." When you hear these three words in that particular order, alarm bells should go off in your head, and if possible, you should pull a kazoo out of your pocket and make a loud "BZZZZTT!!" sound in the speaker's ear. That's because the Gospel doesn't require anything! The Gospel is the glorious news of Christ's saving work for us on the cross. It is the strong saving power of the Sacraments. It is Word of the eternal life offered to us by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. That's it. No more. Finito. End of story.

What is not the Gospel? Well, the Gospel is not that Christ came to have us live perfect lives, or to become sinless in this life, as many teach. It is not a piece of refrigerated bait to be tossed among sinners, luring them to church where we can pound them with the Law. The Law is necessary, yes. But in Lutheran churches, the Law is preached as a precursor to forgiveness. The forgiving work of Christ on the cross -- the very Gospel itself -- is the point at which God chose to contact fallen humanity. So everything -- even the Law -- is given to point back to Christ and His saving work on our behalf.

It is only through the preaching of this Gospel that believers are enabled to do truly good works. After all, anything done without faith is sin. So the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, after hearing the Law and how miserably we fall short, is the true impetus for good works in a Christian's daily life.

Sorry I'm so talkative today. Hopefully that makes sense to someone besides me.
Makes perfect sense to me as well. Hey Crosswise, I bought a copy of God's no and God's yes last spring. I love it. It is a book I think should be bought by all laymen in the church as well as the preacher. First it would help them to understand what it is that the Pastor is doing in his message.

Confirmation students should be taking notes on the sermon each week and giving a synopsis in their own words what the Law part of the sermon was and what the Gospel part is. This would, I believe, train them on how to properly listen and learn from each sermon.

[xenia]

Thank you everyone! I woke up this morning to ten terrific answers.

A follow-up question, if I may:

Since the Gospel makes no requirements on a person, how are the sacraments viewed?

Thanks!

Xenia

[ChiRho]

The Law shows us our sin and teaches us that we can never satisfy the expectations and requirements of God's Law through our own effort. The Law condemns us to certain death and shows us the best we can do for ourselves is earn the fires of hell. Once we are broken by the law and realize that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation, the Gospel is used to heal, soothe, comfort and provide hope (in the the biblical sense of certain expectation).

The Gospel is used to show us how God recognized our inability to satisfy His Law and how He sent is Son to fulfill it for us. Christ's sacrifice atoned for our failures and where there is faith in Christ, we need not fear the ravages of the Law.

It is important when speaking with someone to know whether to use Law or Gospel. Someone who is a unrepentent sinner needs a good dose of the Law until he finally understands and is crushed by his sin, then one would share the Gospel with him. Sharing the Gospel only to someone who doesn't think he needs it accomplishes nothing. The unrepentant sinner has no use for the Gospel message

Someone who is already broken and terrorized by his sin is in desperate need of the Gospel. Sharing a Law message with him has the potential to throw him into deeper dispair to the point he will not listen to the Gospel message.

A Lutheran pastor will almost always deliver a rightly distinguished Law / Gospel message when preaching to a group because there are usually both kinds of people in the group...but when talking one on one...some background information is generally sought so that before a message is given, one finds out which message is needed.

But I loved Recht's icon explanation! ;)

Peace

Rose

First outdone by Recht, then smashed into obliteration by Rose... :D

[CrossWiseMag]

Since the Gospel makes no requirements on a person, how are the sacraments viewed?

They are Gospel. Through them, Christ applies his saving work. In the sense that baptism is "required," it is not we who are doing that work, but God.

The Sacraments are where Romanism and modern Protestantism break down most severely, in my opinion. They take the Gospel gifts of Christ in the Sacraments, and they turn them into Law. Modern Protestantism is slightly more guilty of this than Rome, because they deny outright the salvation offered through baptism and the Lord's Supper. Rome at least recognizes that sacraments have saving power. But they have turned that saving power on its head, by making our participation the focus, rather than God's work through them.

Using the Lord's Supper as an example, we can get an idea of how the distinction between Law & Gospel becomes important.

Rome says there is power of forgiveness in the Supper. But they muddle this Gospel with Law when they make the Supper a "sacrifice" which we offer to God.

Modern Protestantism denies any power of forgiveness in the Supper. Theirs is not so much a confusion of Law and Gospel as a bloodless (always bloodless, those modern Protestants are! Blood scares off the seekers!) execution of the Gospel offered in the sacrament.

Lutherans, as in so many areas, occupy a middle ground. The distinction between Law and Gospel means we must not view the Supper as something we do to earn forgiveness. It took God a long time to get this through my thick head. But the Lutheran view recognizes that the "work" going on in the Supper is not ours, but God's. We are no more responsible for receiving his forgiving body and blood than we are responsible for hearing the Gospel in the first place. The Supper, just like baptism, and just like our initial hearing of the Word, is God's work alone.

I'm not sure where Eastern Orthodoxy falls along this line. I seem to recall seeing an EO person reject the "sacrifice of the Mass," as Lutherans do. If so, I would say Lutheran and EO views on this particular subject are probably fairly close to one another. But then again, I've been dreadfully wrong before.

[CrossWiseMag]

Hey Crosswise, I bought a copy of God's no and God's yes last spring. I love it.

I agree, Scott! Well, I sort of agree. I haven't really read it, but I've perused the original and it's awesome. There's a ton of stuff that really fell into place when I read some of Walther's theses in that book. The big thing for me was the realization that we simply cannot motivate people to do good works by harping on them to do good works! What an eye-opener--but it's perfectly Biblical. And when I began to think about it, I realized just how true it is that the Gospel alone can motivate someone to serve God. The Law helps guide us, but it doesn't motivate us at all. That was a mind-blowing insight. And it's part of what motivated Cross+Wise, because 99.9% of Christianity is teaching something different, and Lutherans (including me) are inadvertantly falling for it.

[Jim47]

Excellant reply CWM! :thumbsup:

[xenia]

I'm not sure where Eastern Orthodoxy falls along this line. I seem to recall seeing an EO person reject the "sacrifice of the Mass," as Lutherans do. If so, I would say Lutheran and EO views on this particular subject are probably fairly close to one another. But then again, I've been dreadfully wrong before.

I don't think you are dreadfully wrong in this case. I would not say our views on this are identical, but I think they are pretty close. :thumbsup:

They [the sacrments] are Gospel. Through them, Christ applies his saving work. In the sense that baptism is "required," it is not we who are doing that work, but God.

Yes, this is what I also believe.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to write out these answers.

-Xenia

[CrossWiseMag]

always bloodless, those modern Protestants are!

Upon further reflection, ask myself, I must, why talking like Yoda, I am?

[filosofer]

Hey Crosswise, I bought a copy of God's no and God's yes last spring. I love it.

I agree, Scott! Well, I sort of agree. I haven't really read it, but I've perused the original and it's awesome. There's a ton of stuff that really fell into place when I read some of Walther's theses in that book. The big thing for me was the realization that we simply cannot motivate people to do good works by harping on them to do good works! What an eye-opener--but it's perfectly Biblical. And when I began to think about it, I realized just how true it is that the Gospel alone can motivate someone to serve God. The Law helps guide us, but it doesn't motivate us at all. That was a mind-blowing insight. And it's part of what motivated Cross+Wise, because 99.9% of Christianity is teaching something different, and Lutherans (including me) are inadvertantly falling for it.The 1929 edition translated by Dau is the best one of Walther's Proper Distinction. I have made it a practice to read this book at least once every 3-4 years, if not more often. I had developed a chart explaining the differences/distinctions between L&G, and then use that as the basis for teaching the Six Chief Parts of the Catechism. I originally got the idea from trying to explain to former RCC who could not grasp the idea of the freedom of the Gospel. We [the woman, her husband, and me] were seated in the dining room and I started drawing stuff on a napkin to illustrate. Over a period of five months of weekly teaching I kept going back to the napkin illustration (now, formalized on a piece of paper). Even 15 years later I can clearly remember the day she came to Bible class shouting and crying "I get it! I get it! It really is nothing about what I do, but what Christ has done for me!"

Of course, Luther had quite a bit to say on the subject, and so also the Formula of Concord. Luther noted that if someone could properly distinguish Law and Gospel and apply them, the person should be honored with a Doctor of Theology degree.

[Lutherrunner]

always bloodless, those modern Protestants are!

Upon further reflection, ask myself, I must, why talking like Yoda, I am?
makes you feel wise, it does....

[Qoheleth]

Since the Gospel makes no requirements on a person, how are the sacraments viewed?
In regard to the Sacraments:




Holy CommunionIn the Word of the Gospel, Christ, the Word Incarnate, speaks to us. In the Sacrament He gives us the same as He gave to the Twelve at the Last Supper. He gives us His true Body which was sacrificed on Calvary and raised from the dead on Easter. This makes us not only contemporaneous with Him, but unites us with Him in a way that transcends everything that we otherwise call "remembrance." The centuries that separate us from His earthly days and from the time of His death disappear. (Hermann Sasse)

Lutherans have always taken literally the words, "This is my body, which is for you," and "This is my blood of the Covenant."

The sacrament of Holy communion is the Gospel.





BaptismThe whole most holy Trinity is present in baptism with its grace and through the water of baptism is efficaciously active for the salvation of men. Consequently the sense of the words of institution, "Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," is this: "When in the power of his institution and command you administer baptism according to the prescribed form, this is not some bare external ceremony, some kind of exterior washing, but God the Father is present, God the Son is present, God the Holy Spirit is present at this action with the presence of grace. Nor is this a sterile presence, but God the Father through baptism receives the person baptized into grace on account of me, whom he has appointed the mediator and redeemer of humanity. I the Son myself wash the sins of the person away with my blood and I give him my righteousness, I make him a participant on my benefits and all the rest. The Holy Spirit gives him a new birth and impresses the seal of the promise of his heavenly inheritance on his heart." (Johann Gerhard)

The word in holy baptism is Christ's word, not only in the sense that he commands baptism, but that in baptism he speaks the word of rebirth and of new life





ConfessionApology VI: "For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounced upon individuals. Therefore it would be wicked to remove private absolution from the church. Neither do they understand what the remission of sins or the power of the keys is, if there are any who despise private absolution."Even if everyone can confess his sins to God by himself alone and be reconciled to God in secret ... it is good that he take God by His Word and promise ( Matt. 16:19, And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; John 20:23, whoever's sins you remit, they are remitted to them; and whoever's sins you retain, they are retained) that he overcome his stubbornness and failure to confess in compliance with God's Word, so that he may come freely and boldly before God on the basis of his own truth and say, 'Now, dear God, I have confessed before you my sins to my confessor and in your name asked for grace; for you have promised, what is bound is bound and what is loosed is loosed, and your Father will grant what we unitedly desire: so I cling to your promise and do not doubt your truth; as my confessor has forgiven me in your name, so I am forgiven as we have desired.' See such a certainty no one can have who confesses to God alone ...Therefore I will let no one take away private confession, and would not exchange it for all the wealth in the world." (Luther- Of Confession)

[Organist]

LAW = :cry: :sigh: :eek:

GOSPEL = :D :clap:


Any questions? lol


http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm

You warm my heart, Rechtgla(mit umlaut)ubig :)

[CrossWiseMag]

makes you feel wise, it does....
Rely on such little things for my self-esteem, I do. ;)

[Organist]

The way Yoda talks is similar to the set up of the German language, when asking a question. ;)

[Jim47]

I can't get this link to work
http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm (http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

Can anyone provide another link or is this site just down temperarily?

[Organist]

I can't get this link to work
http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm (http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

Can anyone provide another link or is this site just down temperarily?


I can't get it either. It looks like even http://www.atonement.org/ is down, the main page.

[SPALATIN]

The way Yoda talks is similar to the set up of the German language, when asking a question. ;)
Throw over the fence, the cows, some hay.

[KagomeShuko]

Throw over the fence, the cows, some hay.
The talking like, with Yoda, what is?

[CrossWiseMag]

The talking like, with Yoda, what is?

Closer attention you must pay, my young Padawan.

[KagomeShuko]

The talking like, with Yoda, what is?

Closer attention you must pay, my young Padawan.
Aha! One post, find did I.

[Organist]

Throw over the fence, the cows, some hay.

Fresh out of cows, and have no hay. Have a fence, we do. :D

[Jim47]

Aha! One post, find did I.
You guys crack me up ^_^

Yeah, Ima star wars fan too, but I haven't seen the 2 newest episodes yet I think. Can't keep up with all that stuff. My Pastor is a star wars fan too, he says its a very thought provokeing show! I think lots of people have ideas of fantasy.

I miss the flying dreams I had when I was young. I remember the first one I had. I was just 7-8 years old and woke up from a nap, it had seemed so real that I stood up on Gramas foot stoll and tried to fly. :angel:

[Rechtgläubig]

I can't get this link to work
http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm (http://www.atonement.org/Beliefs/lg1_main.htm)http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gif

Can anyone provide another link or is this site just down temperarily?


I think it is back now. My pastor may have been updating the site (???) I don't know. Sorry. :wave:

[Jim47]

I think it is back now. My pastor may have been updating the site (???) I don't know. Sorry. :wave:

Do you know if its o/k to copy from that web site to repost on another or for personal use? I have some frineds that I could use a lot of that material for. I sent them an e-mail but back an automated responce because they are out of the office.
Thanks Jim

[Rechtgläubig]

Do you know if its o/k to copy from that web site to repost on another or for personal use? I have some frineds that I could use a lot of that material for. I sent them an e-mail but back an automated responce because they are out of the office.
Thanks Jim
It is the web site for my church. Would you like me to ask my pastor?

[Jim47]

It is the web site for my church. Would you like me to ask my pastor?
Thanks for the help, but I think you gave me a good answer in your PM. :)

[Rechtgläubig]

Thanks for the help, but I think you gave me a good answer in your PM. :) OK :D


You're welcome!

[Phoebe]

Throw the horse over the fence some hay.

[KagomeShuko]

Throw the horse over the fence some hay.
HAY!? I am fresh out of horses. . .and fences!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[theologia crucis]

Xenia, there are a few other aspects of Law & Gospel that should be presented as well:

1.) Lutherans believe, teach and confess there are three uses of the Law:

a.) A curb to control sinful and violent outbursts by us sinners (1. Tim 1:9, Rom 2:14-15)

b.) A mirror to accuse us of our sins and show us our need for a savior (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7)

c.) A rule to show us how we should try and live our lives (Psalms 119:9, Psalms 119:109, 1 John 4:9 & 11). Of course, the third us of the Law (rule) does not in one iota constitute our righteousness before God, but since the Law is holy and perfect, it is something we should strive for, because that is how God intended for us to live (until Adam fell!).

2.) Lutherans use Law & Gospel to interpret Scripture. In fact, we consider it the key to unlocking Scripture. From the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord, Article V:

The distinction between law and gospel is a particularly glorious light. It serves to divide God’s Word properly [cf. 2 Tim. 2:15] and to explain correctly and make understandable the writings of the holy prophets and apostles. Therefore, we must diligently preserve this distinction, so as not to mix these two teachings together and make the gospel into a law. For this obscures the merit of Christ and robs troubled consciences of the comfort that they otherwise have in the holy gospel when it is preached clearly and purely. With the help of this distinction these consciences can sustain themselves in their greatest spiritual struggles against the terror of the law.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 581. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

We can give you plenty of examples from Scripture if you would like.