Predestination and Free Will

[daveleau]

I have been struggling with the ideas of Predestination and Free Will. It is plain that God planned our days before days even existed (Ps 139:6, Isa 22:11). But, it is also plain that we have a choice to serve Him. I am going to be brief and run this by you guys to see what you think.

God planned our days long ago. His plan was for us to serve Him and to do His will. He does not force us to do this, and He has predestined all of our lives. But, predestination does not mean that we have to do this. We have the freedom to choose God's way, which is told to us by the Holy Spirit, or to sin, which is in essence doing anything outside of God's will. We can choose to do His will, or we can choose to do what we want. But, God has chosen a path for us, which is what the predestination Scriptures discuss: God's plan for us. Predestination is not something forced upon us, but God's desire for our life.

Does that sound plausible?

God bless,
Dave

[staugustine68]

I have been struggling with the ideas of Predestination and Free Will. It is plain that God planned our days before days even existed (Ps 139:6, Isa 22:11). But, it is also plain that we have a choice to serve Him. I am going to be brief and run this by you guys to see what you think.

God planned our days long ago. His plan was for us to serve Him and to do His will. He does not force us to do this, and He has predestined all of our lives. But, predestination does not mean that we have to do this. We have the freedom to choose God's way, which is told to us by the Holy Spirit, or to sin, which is in essence doing anything outside of God's will. We can choose to do His will, or we can choose to do what we want. But, God has chosen a path for us, which is what the predestination Scriptures discuss: God's plan for us. Predestination is not something forced upon us, but God's desire for our life.

Does that sound plausible?

God bless,
Dave
We cannot fathom what God truly is. This goes into a leason that I have recently got involved with "40 days of purpose". I highly recommand this book. Even though he knows what lies ahead in our lives, He wants us to act on faith, to trust in him. Sometimes this requires a test that provides for us. I said this before...There is a reason for everything, Something good comes out of a tragic event.

[sara elizabeth]

I think your summary sounds very plausible.

I personally, have always been somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that some are predestined to salvation no matter what and others cannot attain. The Bible tells us in John 3:16 that "whosoever believeth" may be saved. That would seem to support your thought that all are predestined, but not all will make the choice for Jesus.

[C.I. Scofield]

Hi Guys,

This too for me was quite an area of major confusion and after much study, I have come to this simple conclusion. I believe God, Because of His Son, Jesus Christ, has a Divine Plan for all. and as well, Satan himself has a plan to distroy and take as many as possible with him. Which of these plans we choose to follow, is up to us... God didn't make robots, He gave us a free will of Choice. I personally believe that God's plan is sometimes altered a bit, because, we having this free will, tend to make mistakes, and God, in his awesome knowledge adjusts to our mistakes. Now, not to try and humanize God, not by a long shot, I also believe that God knows what were going to do. before we even do it. this is why He always makes a way out... or a way of escape.

I hope I explained that right...

-CIS
:preach:

P.S. Note to the moderater that asked me to reduce my font... this is as small as it Gets as I do have vision problems. and I need to bigger font to see what I am doing..

[ZiSunka]

I have studied, prayed and searched the scriptures and have come to the conclusion that God predestined the WAY of salvation, but gives us freewill to choose that way or some other way which does not lead to salvation. He determined in advance how he would save us, but we determine whether or not we accept and get saved. :)

[theseed]

I have been struggling with the ideas of Predestination and Free Will. It is plain that God planned our days before days even existed (Ps 139:6, Isa 22:11). But, it is also plain that we have a choice to serve Him. I am going to be brief and run this by you guys to see what you think.

God planned our days long ago. His plan was for us to serve Him and to do His will. He does not force us to do this, and He has predestined all of our lives. But, predestination does not mean that we have to do this. We have the freedom to choose God's way, which is told to us by the Holy Spirit, or to sin, which is in essence doing anything outside of God's will. We can choose to do His will, or we can choose to do what we want. But, God has chosen a path for us, which is what the predestination Scriptures discuss: God's plan for us. Predestination is not something forced upon us, but God's desire for our life.

Does that sound plausible?

God bless,
Dave
I would say that is not plausible because it violates God's Soveriegnty. Predestination in Romans 8.30 speaks of how God planned for us to be like Christ before we were born. Other verses support that God elects sinners to salvation. The Bible teaches that we can in now way come to God on our own (John 6.35f; Rom. 3). In other words, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit, we have no desire to seek God at all. Therefore, I must conclude that we are born again before we come to have faith in Christ. There is nothing that we can do to thwart God's plan; whatever we chose to do--God has already accounted for. He sees all, knows all, and is everwhere.

Know this, God does not turn anyone down who comes to him.

[Glisten]

Whatever I've read in the Bible always seems to be speaking of believers as a group, or the church as a whole. It is always in the plural when speaking of "foreordained" or "predestined" - and I have a hard time believing some are "predestined" to be condemned, whether they want it or not. If God is a loving God, a just God, this cannot be. I am not an expert on this, but these are my thoughts on this.

[Crazy Liz]

Does that sound plausible?

God bless,
Dave

Yes, it sounds plausible. I would not say this is the ONLY plausible view, but this is one plausible view.

After following the Lord for more years than most of you have been live, I can say that I have seen my own view, as well as others, on this question change many times as people grow and develop in their spiritual walk with God. I am thus opposed to churches holding one view on this question as a matter of dogma.

Just as children go through different stages in their physical and cognitive development, Christians tend to go through different stages in their spiritual development. Changes in one's view on this particular question tend often to follow some fairly predictable patterns that can't be shortcut. I once saw someone post in one of these forums that "a man who is not an Arminian at age 20 has no heart; a man who is not a Calvinist at age 40 has no brain." This saying is an acknowledgement of both cognitive and spiritual development. Personally, I don't think a person whose cognitive and spiritual development follows this path will necessarily remain a Calvinist the rest of his life. But by the time he goes through the next major change, he will also have come to a greater understanding of the process, and therefore will not argue as strenuously for one position or another as he did at earlier stages.

Personally, I have experienced this kind of thesis-antithesis-synthesis process in my own thinking. I do tend to argue against the Calvinist position because it gives too little credit to God's love, and because I think it uses a faulty and overly simplistic definition of sovereignty. However, I do see it as a valid developmental stage in a person's cognitive and spiritual development and theological thinking.

I don't know how much sense this makes to everyone. I would just suggest that if your thinking on this question has changed once, consider the likelihood that it will change again, and don't box yourself into a corner. A wise man once said, "To live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often."

[theseed]

Whatever I've read in the Bible always seems to be speaking of believers as a group, or the church as a whole. It is always in the plural when speaking of "foreordained" or "predestined" - and I have a hard time believing some are "predestined" to be condemned, whether they want it or not. If God is a loving God, a just God, this cannot be. I am not an expert on this, but these are my thoughts on this.
If God elects groups, then he elects individual to be in the group.

[theseed]

Personally, I have experienced this kind of thesis-antithesis-synthesis process in my own thinking. I do tend to argue against the Calvinist position because it gives too little credit to God's love, and because I think it uses a faulty and overly simplistic definition of sovereignty. However, I do see it as a valid developmental stage in a person's cognitive and spiritual development and theological thinking
Try me and see if my theological constructs are simplistic. You see, I've started with your theological position, and have advanced to more complex constructs myself.

What's disturbing about the OP is not the rejection of Calvinism, but that it implies that we can violate God's sovriegn will.

[Crazy Liz]

Try me and see if my theological constructs are simplistic. You see, I've started with your theological position, and have advanced to more complex constructs myself.

How do you know? I haven't stated my present theological position.

[theseed]

How do you know? I haven't stated my present theological position.
I've been in discussions with you before; remember?

[Crazy Liz]

I've been in discussions with you before; remember?

Yes, I remember. Since you understand my theological position so well, can you summarize it?

[theseed]

Liz, can you summarize mine?

[Crazy Liz]

Based on your last post in Room 101, I don't think so. :confused:

I asked you to explain mine, since you said in post #10 that you started out with my theological position and have advanced to more complex constructs. If this is true, you should be able to summarize mine, while I would not necessarily be able to summarize yours.

I haven't said anything at all in this thread about your theological position. I have merely made some comments about Calvinism. I don't know whether the shoe fits or not. However, you seem to know all about my theological position. If you do, you should be able to summarize it.

[theseed]

Based on your last post in Room 101, I don't think so. :confused:
Not the simple constructs of Calvinism that you are used to? Or is it something else?

[Crazy Liz]

Not the simple constructs of Calvinism that you are used to? Or is it something else?

Sorry, i was editing my post above while you were responding to it. Please see above.

[ZiSunka]

I have an idea, why don't both of you summarize you positions so we can all learn from them, instead of just accusing each other of not understanding each other. :)

[theseed]

Based on your last post in Room 101, I don't think so. :confused:

I asked you to explain mine, since you said in post #10 that you started out with my theological position and have advanced to more complex constructs. If this is true, you should be able to summarize mine, while I would not necessarily be able to summarize yours.

I haven't said anything at all in this thread about your theological position. I have merely made some comments about Calvinism. I don't know whether the shoe fits or not. However, you seem to know all about my theological position. If you do, you should be able to summarize it.
Ok, I will make a concession here. I don't know about your position, however, I have moved from the typical Baptist position to a more complex position which includes TULIP, but other contructs as well.

[Crazy Liz]

I have an idea, why don't both of you summarize you positions so we can all learn from them, instead of just accusing each other of not understanding each other. :)

Sorry, LL. I said what I wanted to say on this subject in post #8. If a mod wants to delete everything beginning when TS decided to get personal with me, I think that would be a better solution.

[Crazy Liz]

Ok, I will make a concession here. I don't know about your position, however, I have moved from the typical Baptist position to a more complex position which includes TULIP, but other contructs as well.
Thanks. My ideas have changed over time, as well.

[theseed]

I have an idea, why don't both of you summarize you positions so we can all learn from them, instead of just accusing each other of not understanding each other. :)
That's a good idea. I will post links to my devotions and apologetic threads that explain my position.

God wants everbody to be saved. (http://www.christianforums.com/t706601-god-wants-everbody-to-be-saved.html)

Myths and Misconceptions about Calvinism (http://www.christianforums.com/t695143-myths-and-misconceptions-about-calvinism.html)

Faith, Hope, Love, Grace, and Salvation--Making the connection (http://www.christianforums.com/t81416-faith-hope-love-grace-and-salvation-making-the-connection.html) (Ironically, Crazy Liz was the last person to post here).

Devotion on Evangelism. (http://www.christianforums.com/t676708-devotion-on-evangelism.html)