Sinner!

[Vigil]

Greeting to all.

It is my honor to present this established civil debate between Reformationist and myself. Our desire to inform and present each others views and learn and grown from each others knowledge. This is not an argument as to “Who is Right” but more a desire to comprehend why the other person believes as they do. There needs not be a direct “Winner” to this discussion, as we are all victorious over Death and Sin in our faith and salvation thought Christ.



Each person will present their points and then wait for the other to respond. Regardless of how long that might take. There will be no derogatory implications because of disagreement of views. We are all children of God.



Our debate Topic will be: Origin of Sin in our Lives.

The opposing Views will be as stated:

Reformationist: Will present the “Born In Sin” or the Theology of the Origianl Sin being passed down the generations.

Vigil: Will present the “Born Into Sin” or the Theology that each is responsible for their own sins only.



I would like to respectfully request Reformationist to start off the discussion, as he is the “Senior” poster here.



Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Hey Vigil. I really appreciate you starting this thread and I pray that we are both edified through it and grow in our knowledge, understanding and love of our Lord and Savior as well as for each of our brethren.

Before I start presenting my position, I have a question. Need our posts be strictly formal or can we approach this as a discussion between brothers, drawing on Scripture as necessary to either support or expound our position? The reason I ask is that I think a lot of these types of discussions get so inundated with Scripture verses that we lose sight of the fact that we are talking with another person. I'd just as soon not get into a Scripture posting contest.

Thanks again bro and I'm very much looking forward to this thread. You are a very intelligent brother and I am sure that I can learn quite a bit from you. I pray that the Lord graces us both with restraint in our responses, remembering that it is Him that we seek to glorify here, not ourselves.

Let me know. :)

God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Sorry I have not responded sooner to your inquiry regarding the nature and parameters of this discussion.



I would like to express my earnest desire to make it known that this is a discussion between brothers, not adversaries, as it is my desire and hope that this will be a sharing of ideals and beliefs with the intention of understanding and love, and not one of rebuke and with the motivation to “prove the other wrong”



Need our posts be strictly formal or can we approach this as a discussion between brothers, drawing on Scripture as necessary to either support or expound our position? The reason I ask is that I think a lot of these types of discussions get so inundated with Scripture verses that we lose sight of the fact that we are talking with another person. I'd just as soon not get into a Scripture posting contest.



I do not desire a scripture throwing match either.

We both have read the bible, and follow it’s teachings, and do not need to be forced to read it again in its entirety.

So needless expounding of scripture can be removed from this discussion, but some scripture to back up your point would be most beneficial, or at least relationship to the scripture, so the other gets an idea of where you are coming from, there might be a need to “Point to the Scripture” so that we both can read it.



However, you have brought up a very important issue, as to what shall be considered “Scripture” regarding this discussion and only this discussion. As it stands, NIV, KJV, and NKJV of the bible as it’s printed today shall be Biblical, and carry with it the Authority of God.



All other works, although are allowable, are not in regards to this discussion biblical and do not carry with them the authority of God. This includes any and all religious and non-religious Publications (Example: the “Book of Mormon” the “Cannons” Etc). Any independent works of spiritual and non-spiritual leaders (Example: Martin Luther, Albert Einstein, Etc) are likewise allowed, but not biblical.



It will be noted that these are allowed to express our points of View, and even if we both respect their teachings, their words and teachings are not (for the sake of this discussion) “Biblical” and does not carry the authority of God.



I am only stating his to establish an “Equal Ground” by which we can base our discussion, not an attempt to limit each other, but to help establish the foundation of the Discussion so it can be of a civil manner, with no misgivings as to what the other “Should” or needs to accept as “Gospel”



However, Like I said, this is an attempt to lean and grow from each other, and the desire is to learn and approach each other with a desire to understand the others belief, not a desire to denounce it.



If questions regarding scripture that might contradict our views is brought up, it should be something like “What do you make of John 4:1” and allow the each other the chance to explain themselves, not “John 4:1 says your wrong! Buhahahahahah” if you get what I mean.



I look forward to your reply.



God Bless.

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

I agree that the parameters you have stipulated are appropriate and I appreciate your clearly sincere desire that we both grow in our knowledge of our Lord and Savior. Thank you very much for the spirit in which you are entering into this discussion. I pray that I may follow your example and that we glorify the Lord God Almighty with our witness.

Well, I guess the first thing that needs to be established or discussed before we get to addressing the nature and disposition of post-Fall mankind is how we view pre-Fall man.

I believe God created Adam and Eve as rational, volitional creatures without a sin nature. I believe their minds were not clouded or corrupted by evil desires. I believe they were created with the ability to sin, which they eventually exercised, and the ability to not sin (posse peccare et posse non peccare). I believe that Adam and Eve were in full communion with God and desired to obey Him in all things. I believe that God established a covenant with them that if they obey Him they would not die and would be greatly blessed in all things. These blessings were based solely on their obedience, thus I would call it a covenant of works. I believe that Adam and Eve, prior to the Fall, loved God. I also believe that Adam and Eve understood that it was good to obey God and evil to disobey Him. I do not believe this covenant was an empty covenant, despite the fact that God, in His omniscience, knew they would eventually break the covenant by disobeying Him. I truly believe that though God knew they would break the covenant, God's covenantal promises to them were genuine.

Any thoughts?

God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.



I believe my Brother that you have chosen the best place to start, and I for one never expected you to start here, But I am truly glad you did. Many times the discussion starts in the current time and works its way back and forth, but to start here was truly a blessing, Thank you.



I believe God created Adam and Eve as rational, volitional creatures without a sin nature. I believe their minds were not clouded or corrupted by evil desires. I believe they were created with the ability to sin, which they eventually exercised, and the ability to not sin (posse peccare et posse non peccare).

Forgive me, I have no idea what “Posse Peccare et Posse Non Peccare” means, can you please translate that for me.



Let me see if I have this correct: They were Created with the Ability to Sin, But not the Desire?

I agree with that completely and it explains the necessity of the external temptation (The Snake). If they had an internal desire, or ingrained “Sin Nature” they would have succumbed to the temptation with out need of external influence.

I could not agree more with what you have said so far.

I also agree with you that Adam and Eve were as you described regarding their intellect and thought capacity.

As for a few of your other points, I am not disagreeing with you, but I might have a different path in my thinking as I believe, however this is up for question, that they did not equate good and evil to obedience.

I feel as if it was more like “I love you my creator for the life you have given me and I feel an earnest loving desire to please you” not a “I am wrong if I do not obey” or as if it was “And why would I want to disobey God?” it was a desire and joy to live for and with God to them in my mind, to disobey God was not something they even contemplated, hence once again the outside influence that required not only temptation, but an outright lie.

I also want to interject here that Eve was told not to eat the fruit by Adam, who was told by God. God did not directly tell Eve not to eat the fruit. (I might be wrong; it’s just my opinion on this as I have gathered from the Bible)

The convent that God gave Adam I do not believe was one of Fear or Obedience but of Respect and Love.

At this point in the process lets remember that Adam is a creation, and knows it. He was molded by the hand of God, with no parent before him, and from his flesh God made Eve.

Adam knows full well and first hand the power of God, at the very least his minimal abilities.

Your thoughts so far?



At this point however, as it seems we are in agreement.

I have one question, what do you mean when you say Covenant with Adam?



So far this seems as if it shall be a truly thought provoking and insightful discussion, I have learned something already and a new way of looking at relationship between Adam and God.

I hope this sets the pace for this discussion, truly this is a joy to me as I hope it is to you.

God Bless.

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.Thank you my brother. I pray that our Lord continues to gift you with this edifying spirit of humility and graciousness. It is a blessing to experience.


I believe my Brother that you have chosen the best place to start, and I for one never expected you to start here, But I am truly glad you did. Many times the discussion starts in the current time and works its way back and forth, but to start here was truly a blessing, Thank you.Thank you. That is very kind of you. You know what they say about us reformed Christians. If nothing else we're systematic in the way we approach Scripture. :D


Forgive me, I have no idea what “Posse Peccare et Posse Non Peccare” means, can you please translate that for me.Sorry about that. Posse peccare is "the ability to sin" and posse non peccare is "the ability to not sin." I believe that Adam and Eve were created with both.


Let me see if I have this correct: They were Created with the Ability to Sin, But not the Desire?I feel that my answer will quickly lead us into some difficult territory but I believe that the desire to sin is the product of a sinful nature, something they were not created with.

I agree with that completely and it explains the necessity of the external temptation (The Snake). If they had an internal desire, or ingrained “Sin Nature” they would have succumbed to the temptation with out need of external influence.Wow. We got there quicker than I thought. Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no idea why the temptation of the serpent was able to affect them the way it did. If Adam and Eve were not created with the desire to sin then I do not understand how that desire could have been manifested. I also do not believe Scripture explains this to us. Unless you have a theory, I think we must just work off the knowledge that, for whatever reason, Adam and Eve desired that which God had put off limits and, as such, disobeyed. I would also like to say that I am also quite pleased that you recognize the difference between external temptation and internal desire. Many of our brethren do not make that distinction, though I think it's an important one. I do not wish to turn this into an attempt to figure out why Adam succumbed to the temptation of the serpent but I do think it's important to acknowledge a few things. First, the serpent was a created being and had no power to change the nature of those he tempted. He could tempt but he could not ensure that they would succumb to his manipulations. Likewise, I believe that there was no other created thing in the Garden that had the power to change the nature of Adam and Eve, not even Adam and Eve. As I said, I believe they had the ability to sin but I do not understand why they chose to. The desire to do as God had forbade them was, itself, a sin. How and why a creation that had no desire to sin could spontaneously desire that which God, whom they were in full communion with, had forbade is beyond my limited understanding. If you wish to pursue this course of reasoning, or offer any insight, I am more than willing. However, it is not necessary if you wish to move along.

I could not agree more with what you have said so far.

I also agree with you that Adam and Eve were as you described regarding their intellect and thought capacity.LOL! Forgive my shock but outside of the reformed forum I rarely hear such things. :D

As for a few of your other points, I am not disagreeing with you, but I might have a different path in my thinking as I believe, however this is up for question, that they did not equate good and evil to obedience.

I feel as if it was more like “I love you my creator for the life you have given me and I feel an earnest loving desire to please you” not a “I am wrong if I do not obey” or as if it was “And why would I want to disobey God?” it was a desire and joy to live for and with God to them in my mind, to disobey God was not something they even contemplated, hence once again the outside influence that required not only temptation, but an outright lie.I do not say that they had a comprehensive knowledge of good and evil in the sense that post-Fall man did but I think, to maintain the integrity of God's judgment against them and their progeny, we must acknowledge some measure of culpability. If we do as so many others are willing to do and simply say that they sinned because they were tricked then we fall into the trap of having to blame their disobedience on the devil, a tactic that has never worked with God. I completely agree that acting contrary to what God had commanded was something that would be foreign to their thinking, which is why this is perhaps one of the most confusing areas of Scripture, in my opinion.

I also want to interject here that Eve was told not to eat the fruit by Adam, who was told by God. God did not directly tell Eve not to eat the fruit. (I might be wrong; it’s just my opinion on this as I have gathered from the Bible)That is what the Bible relates to us, though I don't see that as being of significant importance. I am sure that if God did not directly command this of Eve it was relayed to her. The Scriptures are clear that Eve was aware of God's prohibition, though I do concede that when speaking with the serpent she did not accurately recount God's command. I do not mean to imply that Adam had the authority of God when he relayed the command to his wife but, then again, we as a creation are not guilty before God on the basis of Eve's sin but rather because of the transgression of Adam, whom God did directly prohibit from eating of the forbidden fruit.

The convent that God gave Adam I do not believe was one of Fear or Obedience but of Respect and Love.

At this point in the process lets remember that Adam is a creation, and knows it. He was molded by the hand of God, with no parent before him, and from his flesh God made Eve.

Adam knows full well and first hand the power of God, at the very least his minimal abilities.

Your thoughts so far?I completely agree.


At this point however, as it seems we are in agreement.That's refreshing.

I have one question, what do you mean when you say Covenant with Adam?As I said, the "covenant of works" is what we in the reformed community call the agreement between the Sovereign and the creation that the Sovereign had blessed and would continue to bless the creation in all things. This covenant also included God's prohibition that Adam refrain from eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, including God's judgment that violating that command was punishable by death. One of the things that must be understood when considering the commandments of God is that when God commands something He is also prohibiting its opposite. Likewise, when God prohibits something He is commanding its opposite. For instance, it is not enough that we worship no other Gods but that we must also properly worship the One, true God. So, when God said that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die He was, likewise, submitting that not eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, i.e., obeying God, would result in everlasting life.


So far this seems as if it shall be a truly thought provoking and insightful discussion, I have learned something already and a new way of looking at relationship between Adam and God.

I hope this sets the pace for this discussion, truly this is a joy to me as I hope it is to you.

God Bless.

Vigil.Thus far this has certainly been the most enjoyable and edifying exchange of ideas for me since I have joined this MB. This feeling that I need not be on the defensive is something I so rarely experience that I cannot begin to tell you how comforted I am by your spirit of brotherhood and zest for truth.

I look forward to hearing from you again. If I don't hear from you until after the holidays please know that I pray that the Lord bless you and keep you safe during this very dangerous time of year.

God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Blessings be Upon you for your Wisdom and Continued insight that you share freely.



The nature of the Fall can become a complex and very interknit discussion. I would love to continue a discussion with you regarding this, however I would like to first profess a sincere desire that this would not side track our intentions and motivations of this discussion. If this will help discover the different points of view and the very nature of the ‘First Sin’ as we perceive it, then I am wholly supportive of this direction. After all, if we have built different foundations, we can expect the building to be different as well.



I want to address something important here however, that regardless of what might be said or implied, that the teaching of “All have sinned” is not in question. As a matter of fact, it is this principle fact that drives this discussion.



I will say this is where we part company on our theology regarding the nature of the first Sin, although we are agreed that Adam did not have a “Desire” to sin, what transpires around the Fall is far deeper and reaches into the very heart of man itself. I also want to impress upon you that I do not subscribe to any particular faith or teaching, so what I believe may or may not be shared by the others that believe as I believe regarding the “Born into Sin” theology.



In a way I hope we express and build this up a bit as I believe it might offer some truly great opportunists to understand each others approach to this question.



Please forgive my late response to this, as I have had to read your post many times to comprehend the depths of your words. They are profoundly fluid, and yet strong at the same time.



Lets look at what you have said, and then if I explain our difference regarding it, it might shed more light then to simply state what I believe, as well as maybe establish a meeting or neutral ground to which we can see each others paths. Please forgive me, if I work in a bit of a circular order regarding this particular post.



I would like to ask that although I might be lacking in appropriate words to describe my “Theory” regarding this, that you work with me on this.

I have absolutely no idea why the temptation of the serpent was able to affect them the way it did. If Adam and Eve were not created with the desire to sin then I do not understand how that desire could have been manifested…..

also do not believe Scripture explains this to us. Unless you have a theory, I think we must just work off the knowledge that, for whatever reason, Adam and Eve desired that which God had put off limits and, as such, disobeyed….

I completely agree that acting contrary to what God had commanded was something that would be foreign to their thinking, which is why this is perhaps one of the most confusing areas of Scripture, in my opinion.



This hit upon what seems to the major difference between us. You see, since they never contemplated defying God, the idea that they should needed to be “Planted”



Now this has put forth some powerful questions, but, I want to express first and foremost, that their desire was stemmed from motivation. Let me explain: We need to accept a few things, one major things was hey were not lacking in food or comfort in the Garden, thus, no ‘Desire’ to change the situation.

Now, The temptation of the serpent was not “Do you want to defy God?” it was a planting of the idea that maybe, Just maybe, God was not telling them something, or that there was something beyond, better even, then you have already. The planting of the start of Pride and Greed.

This is where I need to fall back on Scripture: Now if you look at Genesis 3:1. Note how the Serpent has twisted the command of God, to seem to be stricter then it really is. “Can you really not eat any tree” and this is like a jest, or mock, a challenge to Eve, as we both know the Serpent knew the commands, thus putting Eve in defense to explain the rules of God, as explained to her by Adam.

Now I know you do not credit this as important, but it is Very Important that God almighty did not tell her this Rule, it was “Man telling her this, as the word of God that she must take on Faith” but not just any man, it was “Her Man” or her husband. (Now I am not seeking to discuss gender relations in this, but Authority relations here), what is important is that the one that received the command from a Human acting as the Agent of Gods word was the target of the Serpent.

Now, Note Genesis 3:4-5. This is the first sign of the planting of temptation, a foreign thought to Both Adam and Eve, as before this very moment, they had never experienced Temptation in any form, not physical, emotional, or spiritual.

Now the Serpent plants the Lie into Eve’s ear: “You will NOT die” now this is the first time Eve has been exposed to a deception, and I believe has no idea how to handle it.

Two statements have befallen her that do not agree with each other. Now, she was deceived, not tricked here.

The snake did not pass off the “Fruit” as anything more or less then what it was, nor did he force it upon her, she needed to stretch our HER hand and take it on her own Choice. She could have said “You LIE And I’m gonna tell Adam!” (In which case, the Serpent I assume would have been in Hot Water, Pun Intended)

Now there are a series of events that transpire that lead to the Fall before the first bite of the Apple, but what lead up to that bite was just as important as the bite itself, that I believe were overlooked, let me explain:

Her first mistake was to not to go to her Husband and seek his council, Knowing that he could and does speak directly to God, when faced with such a conflict, to seek and discover the truth, and hopeful resolve this situation as a unit that God intended for them to be.

Now this starts the Fall, when she chose not to reject the Snake in favor of the council of her Husband and her Creator, there was no saving her.

Her mind has been seeded with deception and she became prideful and instead of seeking the light of God and enjoying his contentment, she took it upon her own shoulders to make a choice to defy her mate and creator based upon the words of a Serpent because he offered her something she never even knew existed, he placed before her, tempted her with the unknown richness, to be like the one she admired and adored above life itself.

Thus, she was always capable of sinning, but till this was offered, she had no desire.

And she ate.



I have more to say regarding this, but please let know what you think so far, if you have any questions or concerns.





God Bless.

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

I would first like to say thank you for all your kind words of praise. There are a few things I could comment on but, to be honest, I am simply enjoying your knowledge and understanding of the Gospel and, to avoid sidetracking where you are at this point, would ask that you continue.

Though we have not yet delved into the disposition of post-Fall man I think that your understanding of this topic far supercedes my own and I would appreciate the opportunity to prayerfully consider the wisdom you have shared up to this point, as I think it may have some impact on the rest of this discussion.

Thank you for your understanding and, whenever you are prepared, please continue. If you'd rather I comment on this last post of your's please tell me and I'll do so. I will simply tell you that, though I am not sure I could explain it as eloquently as you have, I don't think there are any substantial points of disagreement at this point.

God bless

[Vigil]

Blessings Be upon your Kindness and Wisdom, May the lord our God continue his blessings upon you.



I would also like to say that I am also quite pleased that you recognize the difference between external temptation and internal desire.

I want to impress upon you something, and this is truly from the heart, that until you expressed the difference between external temptation and internal temptation I was till that very day missing an integral part of the puzzle that I was struggling with regarding the Garden and why would Eve eat the Apple. So I want to say that it warms my heart and sprit that you find joy that your words and your wisdom have reached others.

It has been your words of wisdom and knowledge that have helped my understanding grow regarding the Fall. Had you not explained to me regarding the internal and external temptations of Jesus, I would still like many others (you say, and I’ll trust you on that) not fully grasp it. Thank you for that.

I want to express this upon you to let you know that my path in my walk is far from complete and there is always much to learn from our brothers and sisters, and from you have I have learned a great amount already.



One of the things that must be understood when considering the commandments of God is that when God commands something He is also prohibiting its opposite. Likewise, when God prohibits something He is commanding its opposite. For instance, it is not enough that we worship no other Gods but that we must also properly worship the One, true God. So, when God said that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die He was, likewise, submitting that not eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, i.e., obeying God, would result in everlasting life.

This was truly an enlightening statement and I hope that many people read this and take it to heart (I needed to ponder this for a great time as it was such a profound piece of wisdom) thank you for sharing this. This has been a great discussion in many ways, and I hope only that it keeps growing to provide us both with firmer relationship with our Lord and Savior.

I hate apologizing for my delays, but there are so much worthwhile and valuable insights that time needs to be taken to fully absorb them.



I wanted to express that before we continued on our discussion, to impress upon you that what you have to say, and what you have said already are very important to me.



Now on to our theology:

I do not mean to imply that Adam had the authority of God when he relayed the command to his wife but, then again, we as a creation are not guilty before God on the basis of Eve's sin but rather because of the transgression of Adam, whom God did directly prohibit from eating of the forbidden fruit.



We part company on this as well, in a good way however, and I hope that our parting on this theology will build up each other, not drive a wedge into our discussion, as if we agreed on all points, there would be no discussion. I’ll need to explain this for it to carry any weight, but, I hope that in my above post, that the Fall of Eve was a very important event, and carries with it a tremendous weight onto all creation. I hope only to open yoru eyes as you have opened mine in many ways.



I want to also explain something, I do not see a need to discuss Why the Serpent Tempted them, or what the Serpents Motivation was. That belongs in it’s own discussion, unless you feel that it is of importance. To me, as it stands, I do not see the Motivation Behind the Serpents actions as impacting upon the Actions and Motivations behind the Fall. If you feel otherwise, then please let us discuss it.

After re-reading my own posts, I realized that I might have not expressed some things clearly.

One of the things I might have missed in my expression of Eve’s fall is tact. Let me explain this in simple words because if I get to complex I’ll only confuse myself and loose the meaning of what I am trying to say.

Eve Did not “Want” to know the difference between Good and Evil, there was no reason to want it in the first place, as there was never professed a Gain, and only a Punishment “Death”

So if the Serpent said “You will gain the knowledge of Good and evil, don’t you want that?” I believe Eve would have said something like “I don’t need that” or “No, Not really” and besides it will kill her and she knew that.

First was Doubt “You won’t Die” this was true in the sense that God would not come down and squash her immediately, or she would not fall dead on the spot.

Then it was “Don’t you want to be like God?” for the first time in her life, she was tempted with something that could not be viewed as anything but desirable, who would not want to be like God if they could? Do we all not want to be like the people we Admire, Love, Respect and Adore? And now deceived with the idea that it won’t kill her.

Secondly, Notice, The Serpent did not Tempt her with the Tree of Life. Now this would have been tricky, because, all he could offer was that she would live forever, she had no motivation for that because as it stood she would live forever as it was already.

Just something I wanted to bring up.



As to why Adam ate the “Fruit”, was hoping before I went deep into that, that you could give your insight to this.



God Bless

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Blessings Be upon your Kindness and Wisdom, May the lord our God continue his blessings upon you.Thank you my brother. I pray the same for you as well. :)


I want to impress upon you something, and this is truly from the heart, that until you expressed the difference between external temptation and internal temptation I was till that very day missing an integral part of the puzzle that I was struggling with regarding the Garden and why would Eve eat the Apple. So I want to say that it warms my heart and sprit that you find joy that your words and your wisdom have reached others.

It has been your words of wisdom and knowledge that have helped my understanding grow regarding the Fall. Had you not explained to me regarding the internal and external temptations of Jesus, I would still like many others (you say, and I’ll trust you on that) not fully grasp it. Thank you for that.Thank you so much. I am greatly honored by your kindness and could not be more thrilled with the godly tone you are setting for this thread. Again, let me say that this is the only thread, outside of the semper Reformanda forum, that I have ever engaged in that I truly feel that people that may have different understandings of the Gospel are truly sharing their understandings in an effort toward mutual enlightenment and edification. This is due, primarily, to the godly way in which you seem to approach every post and the thoughtful and considerate manner in which you have disagreed with me. I would like for you to know that your behavior has not gone unnoticed and, in fact, has been very helpful to me in making sense of this very confusing section of Scripture, well, confusing for me anyway. :D I pray that this continues as I can see great benefit to this thread in the humble way in which you share your thoughts.

I want to express this upon you to let you know that my path in my walk is far from complete and there is always much to learn from our brothers and sisters, and from you have I have learned a great amount already.And this only serves to increase my respect for your insight. All too often, myself included, posters seem to have a desire to reveal their inflated view of their own theological acumen. I sense none of that from you and, though I wish I could say this was natural for me, I feel no need to respond in that way. On the contrary, I cannot say that I have approached any thread with as much humility as only seems natural with this thread. Thank you for that and thank God that He has graced you in this way.


This was truly an enlightening statement and I hope that many people read this and take it to heart (I needed to ponder this for a great time as it was such a profound piece of wisdom) thank you for sharing this. This has been a great discussion in many ways, and I hope only that it keeps growing to provide us both with firmer relationship with our Lord and Savior.Thank you my friend. I pray also that the Lord continues to bless us in this discussion. I can honestly say that I have been taking great joy in your posts, even when your position differs from my own. I also would like to add that I, too, am not set on any doctrinal issue I have commented on. If I haven't made it clear I am far from learned on this issue and your insight has been of great benefit to me.

I hate apologizing for my delays, but there are so much worthwhile and valuable insights that time needs to be taken to fully absorb them.No need to apologize. I, too, feel that it would be an injustice if we sought to increase the pace of our responses at the expense of prayerful consideration. So long as it does not endanger the thread I pray that you are comfortable with the pace we have currently established. I am trying to consider your position honestly instead of forcing my view. I can only acknowledge that such patience is from the Lord Himself as that is not a trait He has blessed me with. ;) Anyway, I'm sure it will pick up as we move into more familiar theological territory.


I wanted to express that before we continued on our discussion, to impress upon you that what you have to say, and what you have said already are very important to me.Likewise my friend, and may the Lord be blessed by the discussion of two of His children.


Now on to our theology:

We part company on this as well, in a good way however, and I hope that our parting on this theology will build up each other, not drive a wedge into our discussion, as if we agreed on all points, there would be no discussion. I’ll need to explain this for it to carry any weight, but, I hope that in my above post, that the Fall of Eve was a very important event, and carries with it a tremendous weight onto all creation. I hope only to open yoru eyes as you have opened mine in many ways.I did not mean to imply that Eve's transgression was not important, though I can see how my language may have indicated that. I merely meant that the effects of her transgression are not the progenitor for the imputation of the effects of sin. Obviously they played a big part in the disobedience of Adam, though at this point I'm unsure of how much we can attribute to them.


I want to also explain something, I do not see a need to discuss Why the Serpent Tempted them, or what the Serpents Motivation was. That belongs in it’s own discussion, unless you feel that it is of importance. To me, as it stands, I do not see the Motivation Behind the Serpents actions as impacting upon the Actions and Motivations behind the Fall. If you feel otherwise, then please let us discuss it.I agree. In passing I will merely acknowledge that I believe the serpent's motive in deceiving Eve, as is his motive in all deception, is to cause the creation of God to fail to give God what is His due.

Eve Did not “Want” to know the difference between Good and Evil, there was no reason to want it in the first place, as there was never professed a Gain, and only a Punishment “Death”

So if the Serpent said “You will gain the knowledge of Good and evil, don’t you want that?” I believe Eve would have said something like “I don’t need that” or “No, Not really” and besides it will kill her and she knew that.I agree, which, again, is one of the reasons that I remain confused on why they actually did disobey God. Hopefully this will become clearer.

First was Doubt “You won’t Die” this was true in the sense that God would not come down and squash her immediately, or she would not fall dead on the spot.Okay.

Then it was “Don’t you want to be like God?” for the first time in her life, she was tempted with something that could not be viewed as anything but desirable, who would not want to be like God if they could? Do we all not want to be like the people we Admire, Love, Respect and Adore? And now deceived with the idea that it won’t kill her.Hmmmm....you know, ironically, this is not the first time I've heard such a motive ascribed to Eve. My own Pastor submitted the possibility of such a motive. So, you believe it likely that Eve ate of the tree out of admiration rather than rebelliousness. You may address this later but, if Eve's motive for doing that which God had forbade was noble, does this not shed an unattractive shadow upon God's response to their transgression? :scratch: Or do you feel that the appropriateness of God's response to the transgression of pre-Fall man should be deemed by the holiness of the Law-Giver rather than on the motive for that transgression?

Secondly, Notice, The Serpent did not Tempt her with the Tree of Life. Now this would have been tricky, because, all he could offer was that she would live forever, she had no motivation for that because as it stood she would live forever as it was already.Okay. To be honest I guess I hadn't given enough consideration to the manner in which the serpent did tempt Eve. I had previously thought it was enough to acknowledge that his motives for doing so were evil, regardless of the method in which he tried to appeal to her.

Thanks for bringing that to light.


As to why Adam ate the “Fruit”, was hoping before I went deep into that, that you could give your insight to this.Aside from hoping to get your response to how we should view God's response to nobly motivated sin (if there is such a thing) I would say that I am in accord with what you have shared thus far.


God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessings be upon you and yours my brother.



I have truly enjoyed your reply as you have put events into words that I would have never had thought to put them into. For that I am grateful.



I would ask that you allow me this moment to say that many of us, do to the constant siege we endure regarding our faith and our belief are conditioned to be defenders of our faith. In many ways we become warriors for our beliefs because of the adversity we encounter and necessity to “Justify” them, as opposed to being able to freely express them. Of that, All of us are Guilty at some time or another, Myself no exception. Allow me my humble observations that this is never more evident then when opposing views regarding scripture collide. I would like to add that God blesses us with patience when we need it, Love when we need, and a will forged in the fires of faith when we need.

There is a time for genteel talk and mutual understanding, and I hope and pray that this is the time and place.





Now I know I have placed myself a little on the defense here to explain some very sensitive issues regarding the Fall and this is what makes it many times a territory that can only be walked lightly due to the nature of it’s twists and turns that one might not expect, and without fuller explanation can on the surface seem very confusing.

I want to point out a quote: “The Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions”



Now, Even if Eve ate of the apple to be “Like God” because she admired God, it was still, and had always been against what God decreed for her to do, and there was no question that Eve knew she was not supposed to do that. She defied what she loved to be like what she loved.

That is why it was called a “Fall” and not a Rebellion, it was deception not rejection. She was not seeking to reject Gods command. But she was tempted and deceived by being offered what she could not resist, and that was to be like that which she loved and admired, the greatest of all Creation.

None the less it was still Breaking of Gods Command, and God has decreed that the punishment for this was death, before she chose to do it.

To sum things up nicely:

As Sin is only not a Sin when it’s not Committed.

But still, She knew this was wrong, but wanted it anyway.



Now lets look beyond this. Eve ate the “Fruit” and then what happens. Adam eats the fruit. Now, it never seems to talk about exactly why he did this, however, forgive me I need to fall back upon Scripture here again:

Genesis 2:24 Now, read that. This was said as a narrative, a decree, as if we are given the answer before we are presented with the situation. “A man will leave his Mother and Father to be joined with his wife” because, She is flesh of his flesh.

Now, Adam when he found out Eve ate the ‘Fruit’ I am sure that he looked upon her as ‘Dead and walking’ because Adam knew that God did not Lie, if He said you would die, then by God you would Die. So Adam is faced with a Choice, to Live Without Eve in the Presence of God, or to Die with Eve. Adam at this point was not one to be tempted by something beyond what he Knew, he was tempted to choose between Life and Death for Love. Now this seems harsh, But the answer is presented before hand, “He will leave his Father (God) to be with his Wife” Adam chose to die with Eve. He chose freely, and I believe that Gen2:24 explains and applies to the Fall more then it applies to the sharing of a Rib. Adam loved Eve more then Life itself. Which is exactly how much Jesus loved the Church, He chose to Die for the ‘Church’ then to Live. God Chose to Die for Us, as Adam chose to Die for Eve. The pure Choose to Die for the Sinner, out of Love.



The final circle was complete, it is finished, from Adam to Jesus. Man chose to Die for Love, and For Love God chose to Die for Man.



Now I know I might have stirred up some questions as to why God still punished Adam because he ate the “Fruit”, simply because he loved Eve. But lets remember that Adam knew what he was doing here. We are Post Fall man, and to realize this, we need to fully Grasp Pre-Fall man. Adam knew to eat that ‘Fruit’ was Not only Death, But Defying the Commands of God. Adam still Chose to eat it, and thus chose of his own accord to accept this burden upon himself.

This is never more Evident that when God came to Him he said “I was ashamed I was Naked” he did not try to make an excuse to why he knew he was naked, he admitted he knew what he should not have, and knew God would know.

Then the Line we all cling to “The Woman you have Given me” many people think this was Adam trying to “Pass the Buck” sort to speak, But in reality, till this Point, Eve was only known as “Woman” (She named Eve in Gen 4:20, After the Fall) so Adam was just addressing her as was appropriate, she was indeed “The Woman God had given him” nothing more, Nothing less, But what is more important is that Adam said nothing more then that, he did not imply she Deceived him, or that she Tricked him, She Gave it to him, Nothing more. Then the Line, The Final Line of full admittance of Defying his command having made his choice, with complete understating that he was in wrong and that he was ready to accept what ever punishment God would deem fit for him, even being killed on the spot

“And I ate it”

Think about that, Standing before God almighty, and saying “I Did this” “I ate that which you forbade me to eat, that which you promised and commanded would kill me and I did it with full realization of what I was doing”

“And I ate it”



I would very much like to leave this at this point and wait for your insight and wisdom regarding what has been discussed so far.

I look forward to what you have say.

God Bless and May His light Shine upon you and yours.



Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Well, I hate to give such an inadequate response to the effort you put in in the last post but I will tell you that your position on this issue thus far is definitely viable, insofar as I understand it. I guess I'm still a bit hung up on the idea that God punished Adam for loving and supporting Eve in her time of trial, even unto his death, though I do believe you have done a very good job of supporting that position.

I didn't mean to imply that I viewed Adam as a vile sinner who had nothing on his mind but rebellion. I guess my finite mind is just having difficulty reconciling the idea of Adam, and thus his progeny, being eternally condemned for his actions if his motive were so loving, though they were contrary to God's explicit command. I also don't mean to sound like I'm second guessing God's authority to condemn mankind for this transgression, nor doubting God's righteousness in doing so.

As I said, I am finite and, as such, may very well have a skewed perspective on this. I understand the notion that, regardless of Adam's motive, God had the authority to punish transgression of His law. I also agree that Adam loved Eve and would have wanted to support her. I guess I'm just having a hard time marrying the two ideas together when the result was eternal condemnation. Maybe that means that Adam's love for Eve was truly godly love but if that's so, the idea that true, selfless love resulted in the Fall is difficult for my brain to rationalize.

Am I just missing something here or do you think that, for the time being, this is something I just need to ask God for enlightenment about?

Thanks,
God bless

[Vigil]

Greetings Brother, My Prayers are that you and yours are doing well, may God shine his light on your paths in life and bless your walk.



I would first like to express, and restate that we are coming from different theologies, and as such, we will have different views on the situation. I want make sure that we are in full understanding of that, and that although it is of vital importance that we seek to understand each other, that there is no imposing of our views onto the other, but simply more so a mutual respect and companionship to comprehend where the other is coming from.



Now lets move on to your considerations. First, I want to ask that you forgive me, please, as I seem to have misled you with soft words and implications. I had not truly expressed the severity of the actions of Adam and Eve. I realize by your questions I have not made known fully what they had done. What I mean to express was there was much more ‘Done Wrong’ then just the eating of the “Fruit”



Lets Look at what Eve had done.



Eve’s fall was a matter of Trust, Faith, and Honor.

She did not trust in God that what He had given her was for her best, and sought to keep her from what was harmful, and that Death would follow.

She did not have Faith in Adam that he spoke with the authority of God. It was because of this lack of Faith, she was easily seduced by the words of the Serpent, to even believe that what he said was truth, over what Adam and God had said.

She did not Honor Adam, or God, when she refused (By not going to him) his council before making such a decision (Based only on what the Serpent said). She did this behind Adams back.

And then, after she had done this, She went to Adam with the “Fruit” as opposed to keeping her sin to herself.



Adam’s Fall was a different matter.

Adam did indeed love Eve, But it was not a Godly love, it was an Material Love, He loved her More then God.

Imagine this Adam says to God “I chose Eve over you”

Which is exactly what he did.



Both of them, Chose the material world over God!

They deemed the Creation better then the Creator.

It was “A FALLing Away from God”



Both Receive a Death sentence, that was “They could no longer eat of the Tree of Life” that was it. They were denied “Eternal Material Life”

God said: Since you love this rock more then me, I give it to you, Take it with my Blessing, it's yours, do what you want, be together, you will live on this rock, work on this rock, You will grow on this rock, and when the time comes,:: Sigh:: You will die on this rock.


Now, if you read Genesis 4, you will notice that Adam finds no fault in Gods Punishment.

God decreed that because he chose to listen to his Wife, over listing to God, that it was Now Adam’s Job to provide for his wife, as God had provided for them both in the Garden. Adam would have to earn his keep on this world, and from the work of his hands to feed his family. (Like from the work of Gods Hands, Adam ate freely before)



But event then God cared for them, Before they left him to work the land, God went before them and clothed them, so they would not walk upon the earth naked, he did this for them, because even then he still Loved them. He made them clothing from the hide of an animal, so they could be covered, so they would not be shamed as they walked this earth. A father will still loves his child, even when they break his heart.



God did not condemn Mankind, he had and always has, left the door open to us, so that when we are ready, we can come back to him.



This is why it’s called ”Reconciliation” with God, Not a Ritual of Worship. We are seeking to rekindle the relationship with God that Adam and Eve threw away in favor of the material world.



That is why we need to be “Born Again” to let the Adam in us, (The part of us that exalts the Material World Above God), die, and allow us to be Born again in Spirit to put God First in our life.



This is why we need to have Faith in God’s Judgment, we Need to Trust that God wants only our best, and we need to Honor our brothers and sisters as we Honor ourselves, as Eve did not, which lead to the Fall.



There is much more to this, as we can see that the “Fall” of man, mirrors man today, and affects our lives. I would love for a far deeper discussion on this subject, but only if you’re willing. I think it will play a large role in the overall understanding of why we view things different.



I’ll Discuss Gods Judgment upon them next, but as of now, have I put things back into perspective for you my Brother? I am truly sorry that I had not eloquently put this forth from the very beginning. Please forgive my oversight.



God Bless.

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Not sure if you're still interested in continuing this discussion considering it's been so long since I posted but I'll answer anyway and leave that to you. First, please accept my apologies for taking so long to respond. I have been quite sick and have spent very little time on the boards lately.

On to your post...
Greetings Brother, My Prayers are that you and yours are doing well, may God shine his light on your paths in life and bless your walk.

I love it when people say such things. It reminds me of the beautiful Hebrew benediction in Numbers:

Numbers 6:24-26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace. :bow:

I would first like to express, and restate that we are coming from different theologies, and as such, we will have different views on the situation. I want make sure that we are in full understanding of that, and that although it is of vital importance that we seek to understand each other, that there is no imposing of our views onto the other, but simply more so a mutual respect and companionship to comprehend where the other is coming from.

I agree. :)


Now lets move on to your considerations. First, I want to ask that you forgive me, please, as I seem to have misled you with soft words and implications. I had not truly expressed the severity of the actions of Adam and Eve. I realize by your questions I have not made known fully what they had done. What I mean to express was there was much more ‘Done Wrong’ then just the eating of the “Fruit”


Lets Look at what Eve had done.


Eve’s fall was a matter of Trust, Faith, and Honor.

She did not trust in God that what He had given her was for her best, and sought to keep her from what was harmful, and that Death would follow.

She did not have Faith in Adam that he spoke with the authority of God. It was because of this lack of Faith, she was easily seduced by the words of the Serpent, to even believe that what he said was truth, over what Adam and God had said.

She did not Honor Adam, or God, when she refused (By not going to him) his council before making such a decision (Based only on what the Serpent said). She did this behind Adams back.

And then, after she had done this, She went to Adam with the “Fruit” as opposed to keeping her sin to herself.


Adam’s Fall was a different matter.

Adam did indeed love Eve, But it was not a Godly love, it was an Material Love, He loved her More then God.

Imagine this Adam says to God “I chose Eve over you”

Which is exactly what he did.


Both of them, Chose the material world over God!

They deemed the Creation better then the Creator.

It was “A FALLing Away from God”


Both Receive a Death sentence, that was “They could no longer eat of the Tree of Life” that was it. They were denied “Eternal Material Life”

God said: Since you love this rock more then me, I give it to you, Take it with my Blessing, it's yours, do what you want, be together, you will live on this rock, work on this rock, You will grow on this rock, and when the time comes,:: Sigh:: You will die on this rock.


Now, if you read Genesis 4, you will notice that Adam finds no fault in Gods Punishment.

God decreed that because he chose to listen to his Wife, over listing to God, that it was Now Adam’s Job to provide for his wife, as God had provided for them both in the Garden. Adam would have to earn his keep on this world, and from the work of his hands to feed his family. (Like from the work of Gods Hands, Adam ate freely before)


But event then God cared for them, Before they left him to work the land, God went before them and clothed them, so they would not walk upon the earth naked, he did this for them, because even then he still Loved them. He made them clothing from the hide of an animal, so they could be covered, so they would not be shamed as they walked this earth. A father will still loves his child, even when they break his heart.

Okay. I follow you so far.


God did not condemn Mankind, he had and always has, left the door open to us, so that when we are ready, we can come back to him.

This I don't get. Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." This clearly indicates that those who are not in Christ Jesus are under condemnation. Additionally, you say that God has always left the door open to us so that when we are ready we can come back. This would completely deny any need for Jesus to atone and obtain any reconciliation through His obedience. If God simply "left the door open to us" then our separation from God, and alignment against Him, was merely self imposed and could be overcome without the aid of a vicarious atoning sacrifice. Additionally, to say that we can come back to God "when we are ready" denies the comprehensive dominion of sin over fallen man because it speaks of, in my opinion, the impossible being possible, i.e., that fallen man, apart from the regenerative grace of God and the justifying work of the Lord would ever be "ready" to come back to Him.


This is why it’s called ”Reconciliation” with God, Not a Ritual of Worship. We are seeking to rekindle the relationship with God that Adam and Eve threw away in favor of the material world.

I'm sorry but I don't think this is biblical. No one is reconciled to the Father because of anything they did, certainly not because they "sought to rekindle the relationship with God." We who are reconciled to God are reconciled to Him by the blood of Christ, not because we sought, and found, a relationship with God.


That is why we need to be “Born Again” to let the Adam in us, (The part of us that exalts the Material World Above God), die, and allow us to be Born again in Spirit to put God First in our life.

Well, I think, for the purpose of clear discussion, you'd need to elaborate on this. "Born again" is such an overused, and inappropriately used, phrase in the Christian community that it would help if you explained how you mean it.


This is why we need to have Faith in God’s Judgment, we Need to Trust that God wants only our best, and we need to Honor our brothers and sisters as we Honor ourselves, as Eve did not, which lead to the Fall.

Okay.


There is much more to this, as we can see that the “Fall” of man, mirrors man today, and affects our lives. I would love for a far deeper discussion on this subject, but only if you’re willing. I think it will play a large role in the overall understanding of why we view things different.


I’ll Discuss Gods Judgment upon them next, but as of now, have I put things back into perspective for you my Brother? I am truly sorry that I had not eloquently put this forth from the very beginning. Please forgive my oversight.



God Bless.

Vigil.

Nothing for me to forgive, though I do ask your forgiveness for taking so long to reply and I pray that you still desire to continue.

God bless

[Vigil]

Not sure if you're still interested in continuing this discussion considering it's been so long since I posted but I'll answer anyway and leave that to you. First, please accept my apologies for taking so long to respond. I have been quite sick and have spent very little time on the boards lately.
Please forgive my lack of being around as of late, I would very much like to continue this, however at the current time, I have not been on the Boards to respond.
I want you to know that this has been a wonderful and truly enjoyable discussion as of late, and I would very much hate to se eit end because of a stall in posting.
As you have said, lets let this unfold at it';s own pace, and thus is shall be, now it my turn to ask that you wait for my responce.
God Bless.
Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Please forgive my lack of being around as of late, I would very much like to continue this, however at the current time, I have not been on the Boards to respond.
I want you to know that this has been a wonderful and truly enjoyable discussion as of late, and I would very much hate to se eit end because of a stall in posting.
As you have said, lets let this unfold at it';s own pace, and thus is shall be, now it my turn to ask that you wait for my responce.
God Bless.
Vigil.

Hey Vigil. Take your time. I participate in enough threads that, due to ungodly posting, of which I am often the guilty party, I am very pleased to continue this. There is no need to apologize. Life happens and it is a blessing to me when I get to read your posts. Feel free to take as long as you need. I see no reason why we need to abandon such an edifying thread.

God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing Be upon you Reformationist, I thank you and truly appreciate your patience with the slow pace, or shall I say, the small “Bump” this discussion has endured. As with all things, When we make plans and think we are in complete control, God has his own way of letting us know he is still in charge, and some times he lets us know this by simply removing our control for a little while.

I wish the best for you and yours and hope that all things are well with you. May God always be on your side and an angel be standing behind you.



Let us continue on to our discussion, I first would like to express that we might be using words different or have become accustomed to things being stated, and meaning something that the other might not have meant, not because of the words themselves, but because of our experience of how they have been used when relating to Biblical study.





I realize I might have said some things that could have been taken in bad way, or at the very least a confusing way. Please give me a moment to first explain that this has no bearing on the concept of born into sin, or born with sin.



When I said Left the Door Open to us, What I meant was, He Gave us a way by which we could return to him. He did not say there was No way back to Him.

God never slammed the door shut saying “YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL” because of anything Adam did.

To the Jewish Community, He gave the Covent of Sacrifice and Circumcision, and to us today, we have the Precious Blood of Christ.

Now, as for our place In heaven.

You are Correct, there is nothing we can do to “Earn our Place in Heaven” but what I meant was “We as Humans as a Whole, are not condemned to hell, because of Adams Sin” We do earn our very own special place in Hell, for our own sins however.

This is where we differ, I know.



When I talked of “Coming Back to Him”. This is not about going back to him as in ascending to Heaven, it about realizing our path of sin and death on this earth. How we are slaves to our own desires and slaves to our flesh and blood, how we can realize we are dead in our spirit, how then do we make our spirit alive? Only God can do that, but we need to beseech him. We need to seek him, to welcome his spirit into us, and make us alive again. To allow the Blood of Christ to flow over is, and make us anew, to forgive us our flawed Life, and our sins, or desires, and our weakness.

How we are able to Get Back to God is a different matter in it’s own right, and bears nothing on if we are born into sin, or born with sin. Both Paths have the same solution, require the same forgiveness.

I want to express to you to something that do not think I could ever say strong enough or with enough passion:

Forgive me Brother if I have even implied or so much as hinted at the idea that Jesus Sacrifice was anything but truly a selfless divine gift from God almighty, a grace that we do not deserve, and can do nothing to truly earn. If I have so much as even breathed something of that nature I am truly sorry. It was never my intention. For all are dead in Sin, and though sin we condemn ourselves to Hell, and what can mortal man to do remove a sin from their Soul, for who has the Power to forgive a mans Sin but God alone.



Moving on to your other Points:

Just for record, Romans, is an Incredible Gospel in the Bible, truly full of grand insight. Lets look at Romans 8.

I would like first for you to read that Chapter, I am not going to post here, but take a moment to read the whole chapter. I am sure you have read it many times already, but I have always found it to be a bit of a new read each time I read the Bible, and for each discussion I have, when my mind in that direction the words tend to show what needs to be seen.



I fear I have not said this correctly, Let me reaffirm that this is something we agree on, and something that I feel very strongly about.

Yes, You are completely correct, without the blood of Christ we are dead, not only are we dead, we are dead and destined for hell.

We are truly condemned men, when we have rejected the Gift of eternal life that God has painfully laid before us. But God does not condemn us, we bring this condemnation on ourselves. Simply Put, We send ourselves to Hell, first and foremost by our own sins, which we commit of our own choice, and second by reject the sacrifice of Christ and denying all he has done for us.

Truly those that are Not in Christ are Condemned, they are condemned in their sin and death.



I seem to have used a phase that does not mesh well between us. It seems maybe that when I said, “Left the Door Open” and “when we are ready to come back to Him”

This brings up some very complex issues regarding the Fall, and I know I have laid so much upon you already, and there is some much to think about, and given out different views on theology and Sin. This might be a very delicate subject matter.

God has given his Creations, a means by which they can build a relationship with him.

From Adam to all his Creations today, Every Last One of us



But this really does not address the issue of Born into Sin, or Born with Sin.



If I have not cleared this up at all, or just made this more confusing, please forgive me.

I look forward to you response and truly do appreciate your penitence with me.

In Service to our Lord and Savor.

God Bless.

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Greetings and Blessing Be upon you Reformationist, I thank you and truly appreciate your patience with the slow pace, or shall I say, the small “Bump” this discussion has endured.

No problem my brother. As always, it is simply a joy to read your posts, whenever they may come. :)

As with all things, When we make plans and think we are in complete control, God has his own way of letting us know he is still in charge, and some times he lets us know this by simply removing our control for a little while.

LOL! Ain't that the truth!! :D

I wish the best for you and yours and hope that all things are well with you. May God always be on your side and an angel be standing behind you.

Thank you my friend. Being that I am nowhere near your level at benedictions I will merely bogart your's and state that I wish the same for you.


Let us continue on to our discussion, I first would like to express that we might be using words different or have become accustomed to things being stated, and meaning something that the other might not have meant, not because of the words themselves, but because of our experience of how they have been used when relating to Biblical study.

I realize I might have said some things that could have been taken in bad way, or at the very least a confusing way. Please give me a moment to first explain that this has no bearing on the concept of born into sin, or born with sin.

I understand. It happens. If I have contributed to that please forgive me. I can be confusing enough on my own, without any preconceived misunderstandings.


When I said Left the Door Open to us, What I meant was, He Gave us a way by which we could return to him. He did not say there was No way back to Him.

God never slammed the door shut saying “YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL” because of anything Adam did.

I see. I agree. The plan of redemption was not an afterthought or a response to an otherwise unexpected fall of humanity.

To the Jewish Community, He gave the Covent of Sacrifice and Circumcision, and to us today, we have the Precious Blood of Christ.

Ummm...just so I'm clear, though I don't wish to sidetrack here (if we even have a designated track, which I don't think we do), wouldn't you say that it is proper to analogize that as "To the Jewish Community, He gave the Covent of Sacrifice and Circumcision, and to us today, we have the Precious Blood of Christ and baptism?"

You are Correct, there is nothing we can do to “Earn our Place in Heaven” but what I meant was “We as Humans as a Whole, are not condemned to hell, because of Adams Sin” We do earn our very own special place in Hell, for our own sins however.

I agree that we merit our place in hell by our own works but I don't think we have yet established that we, as a collective humanity, did not experience the guilt and condemnation due to Adam because of our union with him.

This is where we differ, I know.

I see that I jumped the gun. :D


When I talked of “Coming Back to Him”. This is not about going back to him as in ascending to Heaven, it about realizing our path of sin and death on this earth. How we are slaves to our own desires and slaves to our flesh and blood, how we can realize we are dead in our spirit, how then do we make our spirit alive? Only God can do that, but we need to beseech him. We need to seek him, to welcome his spirit into us, and make us alive again. To allow the Blood of Christ to flow over is, and make us anew, to forgive us our flawed Life, and our sins, or desires, and our weakness.

Whenever I read these types of things from Christians I am always confused. I may just be misunderstanding you but it seems that you are implying that we must beseech the Lord before we are released from the bondage we endure in our sinful flesh. If so, how is it possible for one who is a slave to their sinful fleshly desires and dead in their spirit to recognize their need to beseech the Lord to be released and made alive?

How we are able to Get Back to God is a different matter in it’s own right, and bears nothing on if we are born into sin, or born with sin. Both Paths have the same solution, require the same forgiveness.

I agree.

I want to express to you to something that do not think I could ever say strong enough or with enough passion:

Forgive me Brother if I have even implied or so much as hinted at the idea that Jesus Sacrifice was anything but truly a selfless divine gift from God almighty, a grace that we do not deserve, and can do nothing to truly earn. If I have so much as even breathed something of that nature I am truly sorry. It was never my intention. For all are dead in Sin, and though sin we condemn ourselves to Hell, and what can mortal man to do remove a sin from their Soul, for who has the Power to forgive a mans Sin but God alone.

There is no need for worry my brother. Though I'm sure you have a more accurate understanding of who you are, I will merely tell you that it is your humility and willing submission to the Lord that shines the loudest in all of your posts.


Just for record, Romans, is an Incredible Gospel in the Bible, truly full of grand insight.

I agree. I have always felt that it is the most comprehensive book in the Bible. It addresses all of the primary biblical themes and not a few of the lesser ones.

Lets look at Romans 8.

I would like first for you to read that Chapter, I am not going to post here, but take a moment to read the whole chapter. I am sure you have read it many times already, but I have always found it to be a bit of a new read each time I read the Bible, and for each discussion I have, when my mind in that direction the words tend to show what needs to be seen.

I understand and thank you for the sound advice.


I fear I have not said this correctly, Let me reaffirm that this is something we agree on, and something that I feel very strongly about.

Yes, You are completely correct, without the blood of Christ we are dead, not only are we dead, we are dead and destined for hell.

I am glad to hear that we share such a foundational truth.

We are truly condemned men, when we have rejected the Gift of eternal life that God has painfully laid before us. But God does not condemn us, we bring this condemnation on ourselves. Simply Put, We send ourselves to Hell, first and foremost by our own sins, which we commit of our own choice, and second by reject the sacrifice of Christ and denying all he has done for us.

Hmmm...well, I am surprised that you would state this in this manner. While I fully agree that we merit condemnation and banishment to the pit of hell by our unfaithful works I find it strange that you would divorce this acknowledgement from the Judge. You say that God does not condemn us but then state that we bring this condemnation upon ourselves. Unless you merely mean that God does not unrighteously or undeservingly condemn us I fail to see the logic in this claim. Equally, you state that we send ourselves to hell. This, too, is an odd way of phrasing your point. I am sure that you acknowledge that we all stand before the tribunal of God's judgment seat. With that said (and assumed), how can we send ourselves to hell? Do you merely mean, once again, that we merit hell by our own sins and that God's judgment against the iniquity of man is neither unrighteous nor undeserved? You don't actually mean that God isn't the One who sends us to hell, do you?

Truly those that are Not in Christ are Condemned, they are condemned in their sin and death.

I agree but, again, I am a little confused by your wording. Condemn means "to pronounce or judge guilty." If this is an acceptable definition to you, don't you also acknowledge that there must be One who does the pronouncing and judging?


God has given his Creations, a means by which they can build a relationship with him.

From Adam to all his Creations today, Every Last One of us

I have always had a difficult time with such claims, not because they are not true, but because I don't feel that anyone has ever properly qualified such a belief. You see, when we acknowledge that the means by which a relationship with God can be built has been given to all mankind we must either acknowledge that the means for initially establishing that relationship is the province of God alone, and one that He does not extend to all mankind, or, we must explain, without boasting, why some have a relationship with God while others don't.


Again, thank you for your insightful and well written post. I look forward to your response with great eagerness and pray that the Lord blesses you and keeps you in His favor.

God bless,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you, and yours this evening. Your kind words and statements make my heart warm, thank you very Much Reformationist.



Gods Plan for our salvation was truly not an after thought in any sense of the word, and you can see it very soon in Genesis. I’ll explain that in a bit what I mean by that. As I do not want to get too side tracked on the theology of our Sins, but I would like to say that our path to forgiveness is just as important as the sin itself. So this is truly does not side track us, it just brings us to a different parts of the same area.

I enjoy our discussion as it is unfolding, and I only hope that we both can grow and learn a bit. If this seeks to enlighten, then by all means, let us discuss all that we need to discuss.

"To the Jewish Community, He gave the Covenant of Sacrifice and Circumcision, and to us today, we have the Precious Blood of Christ and baptism?"

You are very correct, forgive my oversight regarding this. Thank you for correcting me, and bring this to light. It is good that you have seen what I have missed. Thank you Brother.

I agree that we merit our place in hell by our own works but I don't think we have yet established that we, as a collective humanity, did not experience the guilt and condemnation due to Adam because of our union with him.

We have not resolved this issue by any means just yet, but that the very nature of this discussion in it’s own right is it not? I do hope that in the end, even if we never truly resolve that issue between us, at the very least, we can come to understand why each of believes as we do, and views sin as we do. That is my humble hope for the outcome of this discussion.



Whenever I read these types of things from Christians I am always confused. I may just be misunderstanding you but it seems that you are implying that we must beseech the Lord before we are released from the bondage we endure in our sinful flesh. If so, how is it possible for one who is a slave to their sinful fleshly desires and dead in their spirit to recognize their need to beseech the Lord to be released and made alive?

Great Question, and I hope, but I do not believe I will be able to provide an equally great answer to such a profound question you have posed before me.

In the Words of my Father “And how long do you need to hit yourself in head with a hammer before you realize it hurts”

Now I know that statements like that are not biblical, but then we need to ask how can a dead person ask to be alive if they never realized they were dead.

We know we cannot relieve ourselves from our bondage of sin; our world is saturated with our sins and the sins of our forefathers. Now, we endure the sins of our forefathers, by what they have done on this earth we will reap the consequences on this earth, but our soul is not blemished by this. God does not hold against us, what our parents have done, of what our parents parents have done, but only what we have done. No longer will be it be said that the father eats lemons and their son’s teeth will be set on edge.

If my father chose to live a life of Sin, we both would suffer on this earthly world for our fathers decisions, but to God, whom this earth is little more then a simple rock, who sees our souls, only what our spirit and our choices to follow his will or reject it, will be counted against us in judgment.

If we see that our life, our world, of nature our weakness, how low must we fall to realize we need to find our way out of this ditch, that we need help.

Does not every slave inherently desire freedom?

Do we not seek to mend our wounds?

Do we not seek to be alive if we can be alive?

It is not that we don’t inherently desires these things, for many of us, we refuse to pay the price that comes with seeking these things.

“Freedom is not Free” and that is truly a profound statement. We by nature desire to be free from bondage, but many of us are not willing to pay the price of for that freedom. Be it personal, spiritual, or political freedom, we seek to be free people.

How we can attain that freedom is another matter. How can we overcome sin? We can’t, that is why we need to seek God, to allow him to free us, and only God can make our spirit alive to give us true life. If I sought Political Freedom, I would take up arms and fight for it, knowing the price might be my death, how much different is it to humble myself before God, and ask him to make me alive, knowing that the life I have been living might need to end, and that a part of me, the part that desires the sins would need to die for such an act. To Kill the Adam within us, that exults the material world, and become Alive in the Spirit. It’s Called Born again, or a rebirth, because the “Old You” needs to die, and new you needs to be born. That is just as scary to some as facing death on the battlefield of bullets, but this is a battle of the soul and spirit. Where by you must loose to win.

Ok, I am not sure if I answered a single question you asked, but as I said you have put forth a profound question, and I do not think that I have an answer to such a question beyond. No one wants to be a slave, and the worst kind of slaves is a slave to themselves, where they are not in control of their life, but there desires are in control of them.

We need to put our pride down, and humble ourselves to a power Greater then ourselves, to overcome ourselves.

Hmmm...well, I am surprised that you would state this in this manner. While I fully agree that we merit condemnation and banishment to the pit of hell by our unfaithful works I find it strange that you would divorce this acknowledgement from the Judge. You say that God does not condemn us but then state that we bring this condemnation upon ourselves. Unless you merely mean that God does not unrighteously or undeservingly condemn us I fail to see the logic in this claim.

We bring Gods Punishment on ourselves when we sin. When we sin, we bring this punishment upon ourselves. We Sin of our Own accord. We are not forced, we desire to Sin. We commit sins willingly. But you are correct, God does not Undeservingly, nor Unrighteous punish us for anything.

In a way, if we break the law, any law, we bring that that punishment for that transgression upon ourselves. God is the final Judge and Enforcer of his Laws.

Equally, you state that we send ourselves to hell. This, too, is an odd way of phrasing your point. I am sure that you acknowledge that we all stand before the tribunal of God's judgment seat. With that said (and assumed), how can we send ourselves to hell? Do you merely mean, once again, that we merit hell by our own sins and that God's judgment against the iniquity of man is neither unrighteous nor undeserved? You don't actually mean that God isn't the One who sends us to hell, do you?

“we merit hell by our own sins and that God's judgment against the iniquity of man is neither unrighteous nor undeserved”

You said that better then I could. Thank you for putting it that way my brother.



Condemn can mean “Sentenced to”(Negative Connotation) not such as “be judge and found guilty” IE: “I am condemned to a life of paying tickets, because I like to speed” I am not judged and found guilty, I am sentenced to this fate, because of my own actions.



Both Terms are acceptable, I believe I have been using the “Sentenced to” term to much, and not enough of the “Judge Guilty”. I guess you could say.

“God does not Judge us Guilty of Hell, we Sentence ourselves to Hell because of our Sins.”

I believe would make more sense in this structure, Forgive my mixing of word Use.

Thank you for bring that to my attention, had you not that might have lead to some very complex confusing issues later on. It is good that we express this sometimes and seek clarity to issues. That is hopefully the point of this. Bless you.



I have always had a difficult time with such claims, not because they are not true, but because I don't feel that anyone has ever properly qualified such a belief. You see, when we acknowledge that the means by which a relationship with God can be built has been given to all mankind we must either acknowledge that the means for initially establishing that relationship is the province of God alone, and one that He does not extend to all mankind, or, we must explain, without boasting, why some have a relationship with God while others don't.

Who among us can boast of their salvation? That they have submitted themselves to God, and sought his guidance in their life. They have conceded defeat to their life of sin, and knew that they could never free themselves of their own power. That we needed to loose the battle of overcoming our Sin to such an extent that we realized it was hopeless of us. That we realized we could never win this on our own. And needed to ask for the power and salvation of Christ to save us from ourselves. That we are weak and helpless to overcome this on our own. If anyone can find that something to boast about, then I feel they have been lost to the idea of humbly seeking the salivation of God. We are made strong in our weakness. There is no pride in being saved, there is only comfort and security. Confidence: Yes! Pride: No.

“I’m Saved, you worthless heathen and hell bound scum” is not the words of the Disciples of Jesus. I think we would agree on that.

God offers salvation to all, every last one of us.

I believe God knocks on everyone’s “Heart” some just refuse the Call. But it our right, Our gift to choose to be against him, it is a blessings in it’s own right to be able to make that choice to refuse God, as opposed to mindless robots that are built only to serve.

I believe God calls to us our entire Lives, but, we are gifted and blessed with the ability to turn a deaf ear to him. It is a blessing, to be able to refuse God. A blessing that humans are not strong enough to offer their fellow man, that is why we sometimes feel a need to force our beliefs and opinions and laws on to people. We are not as strong and confident as God is, who can wait penitently our entire lives gently calling us Home to Him, and allowing us the right, the Gift, the authority, to say No.

I have no idea if I answered this question for you at all.

Maybe I have only made things more confusing once again, Maybe I have not.

I look forward to your response.



I do so look forward to hearing what you have to say so far.



Always in Service to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Vigil.

[Reformationist]

Greetings and Blessing be upon you, and yours this evening. Your kind words and statements make my heart warm, thank you very Much Reformationist.

You're welcome my brother. :)


Gods Plan for our salvation was truly not an after thought in any sense of the word, and you can see it very soon in Genesis. I’ll explain that in a bit what I mean by that. As I do not want to get too side tracked on the theology of our Sins, but I would like to say that our path to forgiveness is just as important as the sin itself. So this is truly does not side track us, it just brings us to a different parts of the same area.

Okay. As always, I look forward to your explanations.

I enjoy our discussion as it is unfolding, and I only hope that we both can grow and learn a bit. If this seeks to enlighten, then by all means, let us discuss all that we need to discuss.

I agree. Thank you for the great witness of Christian fidelity and brotherhood you have established in this thread.

You are very correct, forgive my oversight regarding this. Thank you for correcting me, and bring this to light. It is good that you have seen what I have missed. Thank you Brother.

My pleasure. I'm glad that we are on the same page and that we can bring these things to light to avoid any confusion. Thank you for being so humble in your approach to this discussion. It is very helpful to me because humility is something with which I often struggle. The example and tone you have set for this thread has been greatly beneficial for me and has taught me quite a bit, even if our views stay divergent.

We have not resolved this issue by any means just yet, but that the very nature of this discussion in it’s own right is it not?

Of course. :)

I do hope that in the end, even if we never truly resolve that issue between us, at the very least, we can come to understand why each of believes as we do, and views sin as we do. That is my humble hope for the outcome of this discussion.

I agree that that is a noble and godly goal though I do feel that I am gaining quite a bit more from this thread than simply a greater knowledge of both your convictions and my own. You have taught me quite a bit about how a Christian is supposed to discuss issues. Now if I can only take your godly example and learn to apply it to threads in which the participants aren't nearly as godly as you I'll be doing quite well.


Great Question, and I hope, but I do not believe I will be able to provide an equally great answer to such a profound question you have posed before me.

One can hope...;)

In the Words of my Father “And how long do you need to hit yourself in head with a hammer before you realize it hurts”

Now I know that statements like that are not biblical, but then we need to ask how can a dead person ask to be alive if they never realized they were dead.

That is truly the core question, isn't it?

We know we cannot relieve ourselves from our bondage of sin; our world is saturated with our sins and the sins of our forefathers. Now, we endure the sins of our forefathers, by what they have done on this earth we will reap the consequences on this earth, but our soul is not blemished by this. God does not hold against us, what our parents have done, of what our parents parents have done, but only what we have done. No longer will be it be said that the father eats lemons and their son’s teeth will be set on edge.

Just for the record, I completely agree with this sentiment, with the exception of its application to both Adam and Jesus. I think the doctrine of imputation plays an integral part in how we understand both the Fall and Redemption. Though we have not yet covered such issues in as great a detail as I hope we will, I will at this time simply state that I believe we will be unable to properly understand and convey the magnitude of the atonement accomplished on our behalf by the vicarious work of our Savior if we fail to understand the repercussions of the disobedience of our representative before God in the Garden. If we reject the idea that both the guilt and punishment due Adam for his transgression was imputed to those he represented, i.e., all of mankind, then I fail to see how we can purport that the righteousness and honor of Christ is imputed to those He represents, i.e., believers. Now, as I said, I'm not sure if you even hold to the view of imputation so this may be getting ahead of where we are. This may, however, at least shed some light on why I am having such a difficult time considering the belief that we do not inherit Adam's guilt. You see, for me, as bad as I view the imputation of the guilt and condemnation due to Adam and his progeny for his transgression, if I don't embrace such a view then it is theologically inconsistant for me to claim that I inherit, and am reckoned righteous because of, the alien righteousness due to my Savior alone for His obedience. IOW, I cannot profess a belief in the imputation of Christ's righteousness, which is the sole cause of my justification before the judgment seat of God, unless I also accept that I previously stood guilty before it by virtue of my union with Adam and the imputed guilt which I have inherited from him. They are two sides of the same coin.

If my father chose to live a life of Sin, we both would suffer on this earthly world for our fathers decisions, but to God, whom this earth is little more then a simple rock, who sees our souls, only what our spirit and our choices to follow his will or reject it, will be counted against us in judgment.

First off, I would like to say that I completely agree that while we are not eternally liable for the sins of our father, we do often suffer temporally because of them. In fact, that is what is meant in Exodus 20:4-6, For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." With that said, I cannot but disagree with what you have said here in relation to this issue. You state that "only what our spirit and our choices follow his will or reject it will be counted against us in judgment." If this is true then our place in Heaven depends on our obedience and if that be the case then we have no hope because no one will be justified on these grounds. Additionally, I think that Paul explicitly refutes such a notion in Romans 9:15,16:

Romans 9:15,16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

You seem to be contending that the outcome of God's judgment is based on our choices to follow or reject His will while Paul is clearly stating that the mercy God extends to us is not based on our willing (choosing) or our running (working) but upon God alone.

If we see that our life, our world, of nature our weakness, how low must we fall to realize we need to find our way out of this ditch, that we need help.

Vigil, I completely agree that such knowledge is vital to coming to God in faith. However, it is this very knowledge that remains hidden to those who are dead in their trespasses and sins because they are blind to their need and will remain blind so long as they are dead. You see, the strength of the strong man of Matthew 12:29 rests on the oblivious antipathy of those who serve him. Those who are under his sway are unaware of their need so the strong man has a great hold over them. Any Christian who braves the Apologetics forums on this very MB can see that the non-believer reject the very idea that he is a servant of satan, even moreso his need to submit to Christ. For them the very idea is preposterous.

Does not every slave inherently desire freedom?

I've never known any slaves so I couldn't make such a judgment but I would imagine so. However, we're not talking about people that are slaves against their will. In fact, the very reason that the unregenerate are in bondage to their sinful nature is because every aspect of their being has been tainted and perverted by the power of indwelling sin. Their thoughts, their desires, their words, their actions, their very will. Therefore, the unregenerate are not slaves in the flesh only but also in their spirit. They deny the sinfulness of their flesh so they have no desire to put it off. In fact, they are controlled by their sin. They are willing slaves.

Do we not seek to mend our wounds?

Only if we see them as such.

Do we not seek to be alive if we can be alive?

Only if we believe we are not already alive. But how can a dead man know that he is dead?

It is not that we don’t inherently desires these things, for many of us, we refuse to pay the price that comes with seeking these things.

I would have to say that this is contrary to what the Gospel reveals about the nature of the unregenerate. The law is foolishness to those who are carnal. The unregenerate never desire that which Gospel offers. They may desire the benefits but want them without the Benefactor. That is a selfish desire that is born from the flesh's desire for self preservation. Do the unregenerate desire eternal life? Do the unregenerate desire to be blessed? Do the unregenerate desire to be at peace? I'm sure they want all of those things. Do the unregenerate desire freedom, healing and life? Sure. However, once again, they must see themselves in need for these things and recognize that in their ultimate sense these are gifts that can come from God alone.

“Freedom is not Free” and that is truly a profound statement.

LOL! I said that very thing to a poster in the General Apologetics forum and he mocked me for saying it. Ironic, isn't it? :D

We by nature desire to be free from bondage, but many of us are not willing to pay the price of for that freedom. Be it personal, spiritual, or political freedom, we seek to be free people.

The freedom that non-believers seek is not truly freedom in the sense that we would use the word. What they desire is freedom from judgment. They want what satan wanted, autonomy.

How we can attain that freedom is another matter. How can we overcome sin? We can’t, that is why we need to seek God, to allow him to free us, and only God can make our spirit alive to give us true life.

But that's my point Vigil. You're attributing characteristics to the non-believer that are exclusive to the believer. Why would a person who rejects the authority and authenticity of God's Law believe that It convicts him of wrongdoing? You see, he must first recognize the validity and authority of the Lawgiver before he is convicted of his need to be reconciled. The depraved nature of fallen man makes such a realization impossible. The Westminster Confession puts it this way:

"Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to conver himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."

You see, those in the darkness will never embrace the light because they love the darkness:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Men loved the darkness Vigil. Why would they turn from what they loved? Simply put, they won't. The object of their affections must be changed. They are powerless to change it. If God does not do so then they will continue to love the darkness and reject the Light.

Additionally, the word used by Paul to indicate our fallen spiritual state is nekros, which means "spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, inactive as respects doing right, and, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative." Such a nature cannot "seek God" for none seek God in their unregenerate state (Romans 3:11).

We need to put our pride down, and humble ourselves to a power Greater then ourselves, to overcome ourselves.

I agree. However, this is beyond us in our carnal state. God must remove our heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. It is this monergistic work of God that compels us to obey God (Ezek 36:26,27).

We bring Gods Punishment on ourselves when we sin. When we sin, we bring this punishment upon ourselves. We Sin of our Own accord. We are not forced, we desire to Sin. We commit sins willingly. But you are correct, God does not Undeservingly, nor Unrighteous punish us for anything.

In a way, if we break the law, any law, we bring that that punishment for that transgression upon ourselves. God is the final Judge and Enforcer of his Laws.

I completely agree with all of that. I just think that this common Christian colloquialism that we "send ourselves to hell" is born more from a desire to protect God from accusations of sending someone to hell, which is completely within His realm as the Judge, rather than Scripture. We merit hell. God simply gives the hellbound what they've earned.

You said that better then I could. Thank you for putting it that way my brother.

Oh. Well thank you. I'm glad to see that I just misunderstood you. :)

(cont.)

[Reformationist]

Condemn can mean “Sentenced to”(Negative Connotation) not such as “be judge and found guilty” IE: “I am condemned to a life of paying tickets, because I like to speed” I am not judged and found guilty, I am sentenced to this fate, because of my own actions.

Maybe I'm just viewing this incorrectly. I watch the show Law and Order: SVU all the time. Ever hear of it? Anyway, I take no issue when you distinguish between the judgment and the sentence but when you try to separate them I think you get into a bit of theological hot water. Every time you say something like "I am not judged and found guilty, I am sented to this fate because of my own actions" I picture a defendant sitting in a courtroom that has neither judge nor jury getting up and taking himself to the jail cell because of his crimes. It just doesn't work like that. How can someone be sentenced if they weren't judged and found guilty? The sentencing always comes after the judgment. The concept you seem to be relaying is beyond me at this point so I'm hoping you can explain it to me. :scratch:


Both Terms are acceptable, I believe I have been using the “Sentenced to” term to much, and not enough of the “Judge Guilty”. I guess you could say.

“God does not Judge us Guilty of Hell, we Sentence ourselves to Hell because of our Sins.”

I believe would make more sense in this structure, Forgive my mixing of word Use.

Actually, it still seems to utilize the technique of divorcing the Law Giver from the Law, though I fail to see the reason for doing so. Do you believe that it bodes ill for God if He judges someone guilty and sentences them to hell? What you're saying makes no sense to me. The sentence is the punishment. We certainly earn it but we don't sentence ourselves. And, as I said, the justification of the sentence depends on a verdict of guilt. Who is it that judges us guilty if not the Judge, for who can make a servant to stand or fall but his Master (Romans 14:4)?

Sorry if I still seem confused. I'm sure this is simply a matter of semantics.

Who among us can boast of their salvation?

Surely no one.

That they have submitted themselves to God, and sought his guidance in their life. They have conceded defeat to their life of sin, and knew that they could never free themselves of their own power. That we needed to loose the battle of overcoming our Sin to such an extent that we realized it was hopeless of us. That we realized we could never win this on our own. And needed to ask for the power and salvation of Christ to save us from ourselves. That we are weak and helpless to overcome this on our own.

But why did they do this when so many others do not? Are they smarter? More humble? How do we relay such a belief when everyone of those factors is a boast, even if it is boasting in nothing more than humilty.

If anyone can find that something to boast about, then I feel they have been lost to the idea of humbly seeking the salivation of God. We are made strong in our weakness. There is no pride in being saved, there is only comfort and security. Confidence: Yes! Pride: No.

Vigil, I agree with this. However, the math just doesn't add up, if you'll forgive the expression. Take ten believers and ask them, "Why are you saved?" If their answer starts with any variation of "Because I..." they boast. Salvation, in the eternal sense, is not the product of our search. It's the product of God's mercy upon the unsearching. Prior to our rebirth we neither sought nor found God.

“I’m Saved, you worthless heathen and hell bound scum” is not the words of the Disciples of Jesus. I think we would agree on that.

Of course we agree on that.

God offers salvation to all, every last one of us.

I agree.

I believe God knocks on everyone’s “Heart” some just refuse the Call.

Why do some refuse and others accept it? Take yourself for instance. Clearly God has "knocked on your heart," right? Why did you answer? You see, there are so many explicit teachings that debunk such claims. First off, God does not give everyone the same call. We are told in Romans 1 that there is a general revelation, and thus call, by God to all mankind because we are all exposed to His majesty in creation. Later, in Romans 8, we are told that those whom God calls, He justifies. Now, if God calls everyone, why does Paul say "those whom God calls?" Additionally, the passage goes on to state that those whom God justifies, He glorifies. So, the proper conclusion is that those He calls, He glorifies. With regard to created humanity, glorification is exclusive to the believer so either we must contend that everyone goes to Heaven and is glorified, or, this is speaking of a different "call." This idea is furthered in John 6. We are told that we are incapable of coming to the Father unless He compels us (6:44). Additionally, we are told that all whom the Father gives to the Son will come and He will lose none of them. So, when we take all of this in, we can see that this inward call of God is necessary and that it ensures that all who receive it actually do come and are preserved.

But it our right, Our gift to choose to be against him, it is a blessings in it’s own right to be able to make that choice to refuse God, as opposed to mindless robots that are built only to serve.

I don't adhere to the view that we have no will or that the choices we make are not our own. However, the ability to reject God is the only ability that unregenerate man has because it is always his strongest desire. I have no clue why you consider it a blessing since it accounts for the eternal condemnation of so many.

I believe God calls to us our entire Lives, but, we are gifted and blessed with the ability to turn a deaf ear to him. It is a blessing, to be able to refuse God.

How is it a blessing Vigil? In what way is that a good thing? The only reason I can fathom someone would see it as a good thing is because they personally relish the knowledge that they chose for God instead of against Him even though they had the power to choose differently. That, to me, sounds far too self-serving to be indicative of a proper understanding of the message of the Gospel. The biggest problem with the thought you express here is that you clearly see our ability to reject God as a counter balance to an inherent ability to accept God. Not only does this contradict every admission you've made up to this point, it is unbiblical. Man is born with the ability to turn a deaf ear to God because man, in his unregenerate state, is deaf. Any ear that a deaf man turns to God lacks the ability to hear. Unregenerate man can only turn a deaf ear to God because that is all the unregenerate man has.

We are not as strong and confident as God is, who can wait penitently our entire lives gently calling us Home to Him, and allowing us the right, the Gift, the authority, to say No.

Vigil, though God may providentially allow such rejection, He has not given us the authority to do so. We still suffer the consequence of such actions. We can break His Law but not with impunity.

Thanks Vigil. As always, you make it quite interesting and edifying.

I look forward to your response and pray that the countenance of the Lord is upon you always.

God bless,
Don

[Reformationist]

Sorry about the length of that. It was so long I had to split it up into two posts. :eek: :doh:

Anyway, I know it's long so take your time and reply whenever you feel inclined.

God bless you my brother,
Don

[Vigil]

Greetings and Blessing be Upon you. I am amazed at your quick response to my post. Please allow me a moment to express something here.



I want to make sure that we do not become stumbling blocks to each other regarding this discussion, remember it is not that you must believe what I believe, nor must I believe what you believe, but the importance here is that we understand what each others believes so that we can come to respect each others stances. We are not seeking to convert each other, but only to enlighten.



Many of your points, and the points you have brought up regard the origin of Sin, and thus we need to discuss that before we can continue on to this point of relationship to forgiveness. But I am glad you have said what you have said so far. It seems in many ways you have put me almost on the defense to explain my beliefs, but that is Good, for I need to have answers for what I believe, if to no mortal man other then myself. For this I truly thank you, and hold your questions to be in highest regards.

I hope only that I can have the words and means by which to convey my belief and feelings regarding this matter to you effetely.



Lets continue on with our discussion:

You have taught me quite a bit about how a Christian is supposed to discuss issues. Now if I can only take your godly example and learn to apply it to threads in which the participants aren't nearly as godly as you I'll be doing quite well.

Each person and group is different my brother, and sometimes you need to call a horses hind quarters, well a Horses (Hind Quarters) if you know what I mean. But I am honored more then I deserve by your kind words. Thank you.



Just for the record, I completely agree with this sentiment, with the exception of its application to both Adam and Jesus. I think the doctrine of imputation plays an integral part in how we understand both the Fall and Redemption.



I am going to admit that Adam, and Jesus are special Cases when regarding sin, there are many special cases in the bible regarding Sin and mans fallen nature, Jesus and Adam are but two. Of that I hope we agree.



Please Forgive me, I am not a familiar with the Doctrine of Imputation, so this might take a while for us to discuss. I look for to you to explain it to me, or could you reference some material for me to read regarding it.



You see, for me, as bad as I view the imputation of the guilt and condemnation due to Adam and his progeny for his transgression, if I don't embrace such a view then it is theologically inconsistant for me to claim that I inherit, and am reckoned righteous because of, the alien righteousness due to my Savior alone for His obedience. IOW, I cannot profess a belief in the imputation of Christ's righteousness, which is the sole cause of my justification before the judgment seat of God, unless I also accept that I previously stood guilty before it by virtue of my union with Adam and the imputed guilt which I have inherited from him. They are two sides of the same coin.

EDIT*

Forgive me Brother for even thinking your faith might be an issue of suspect regarding this sharing of theologies. I should have held you in higher regards then that, Please forgive my oversight and in a way my own pride.

I should have more faith in you to believe that if this was to become a stumbling block for either of us, we would come out and say it, however, I need to trust you more regarding this. Forgive my oversight, as many times people become over sensitive to issues like this, I should have held you in higher regard as you have been nothing but civil so far.



I need some information from you, as I do not know what IOW means.

I am not sure if I want to say more then this right now, I’ll await your response to what has been said and done. Shall we continue down this path?



In Service to our Lord and Savior.

God Bless

Vigil.

[Vigil]

Sorry for my lapse in posting, life has been as life will be.

It is good that we have this discussion, and I do hope that we can continue along these lines.



Exodus 20:4-6, For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."



This is one of the strongest points in the bible, and I would like for you to remember this well, as much as I have to say will bear burden upon this first and greatest of all commandments.



Now you brought up a point that our place in heaven is not of works or of choice. But Romans 9:15 –16 seems in my mind, to not be a place of heaven or salvation of a place of suture on this earth, and Vessel, for a use, that God has intended. Now, I might be wrong, I do not believe what I believe with absolute authority, for that belongs to God alone, and not to man. Now, That is regarding that Verse and chapter. If you will notice, he says to Pharaoh “I raised you up for this purpose” this was in the earth, this rock we call home.



Those who are under his sway are unaware of their need so the strong man has a great hold over them. Any Christian who braves the Apologetics forums on this very MB can see that the non-believer reject the very idea that he is a servant of satan, even moreso his need to submit to Christ. For them the very idea is preposterous.



I used to post in the GA forum and still read it from time to time. In the words of a Great Physicist, “They are people troubled by a little learning” (name withheld)



Now, In a way, I do not mean to make this into a debate regarding the unsaved, however, they are not servants of Satan, they are sides with Satan by default, this makes them not his servants, nor his followers, but link condemned individuals that will share Satan’s fate in the final Judgment. You see it’s said very clearly, Your either for God, or against him.

Now, one might hear many arguments that “If I do not believe, How can I be against” however, if you spread doubt to Gods followers, then you by your actions have set yourself to be against God.

“Your either part of the Solution, or part of the Problem”

It’s very simply put.

However, I have nothing but utmost respect for those Brothers and Sisters that Post in GA, and I shall return there, when Time permits again.



I've never known any slaves so I couldn't make such a judgment but I would imagine so. However, we're not talking about people that are slaves against their will. In fact, the very reason that the unregenerate are in bondage to their sinful nature is because every aspect of their being has been tainted and perverted by the power of indwelling sin. Their thoughts, their desires, their words, their actions, their very will. Therefore, the unregenerate are not slaves in the flesh only but also in their spirit. They deny the sinfulness of their flesh so they have no desire to put it off. In fact, they are controlled by their sin. They are willing slaves.

That was poetic, Truly you are gifted and given great insight brother. Willing Salves.



Now you say you do not know of any slaves, But what if I were to tell you, that you know many slaves in your life, that you are surrounded by Willing Slaves.

Would you doubt me?

What slaves am I speaking of?

What if I were to say, You see a slave everyday, The man in the Mirror.

Now you might say me to me, I am not a slave.

So I ask.

Why do you work?

Do you work because your profession if a Godly thing to Do, and you work in service to our Lord?

Or do you work, because you have bills to pay, a mortgage, insurance bills. A child to Feed, and Wife to Support.

You make a promise to yoru spouse, yoru children, that you would provide for them, and this placed shackles upon your own wrists and neck. Given they are shackles willing put on, and made of love and promise, but they are shackles none the less.

Do you not desire Financial freedom? The ability to have wealth where you did not need to work?

Of course you do. Every one does.

The question then, is are you willing to do what needs to be done to have that?

Or will you take a different route, give all you own, and walk out of your house, with it’s bills, leave your car, and walk this world a free man not in need of money, to not be a slave to our earthly desires, wants and needs.

This is a question, did you know you were a slave? Did you ever think yourself one? Of Course not, you felt a free man, you do what you want.

Can you not work?

Can you walk out your door tonight, and come back when you feel like it?

Of Course not.

Why?

I have obligations.

A slave to your own promises, and the world that you live in. A willing, slave.

Now, I know this different, and you might not think yourself one, not compared to what was once considered a “Slave” something like property.

But that is the slave to Sin. They see themselves not a slaves, but they are.



A wound?

Tell me, can you take back a Lie? Can you heal a heart after you have broken it?

Can you undo a word of contempt?

It’s about seeing the pain you actions take upon those around you. Sin is not just a “Going against God” but is actions against self as well. Sadly the Un-saved never see it as such.



I would have to say that this is contrary to what the Gospel reveals about the nature of the unregenerate. The law is foolishness to those who are carnal. The unregenerate never desire that which Gospel offers. They may desire the benefits but want them without the Benefactor. That is a selfish desire that is born from the flesh's desire for self preservation. Do the unregenerate desire eternal life? Do the unregenerate desire to be blessed? Do the unregenerate desire to be at peace? I'm sure they want all of those things. Do the unregenerate desire freedom, healing and life? Sure. However, once again, they must see themselves in need for these things and recognize that in their ultimate sense these are gifts that can come from God alone.

As I said, they want these things, this Freedom, but they are unwilling to pay the price.

The same could be said for the people that want the liberty of freedom this country has, But refuse to go to War to defend it, Would they be counted among Washington’s Men? Had this country, or any country, been fully of them, Freedom would be all but extinct there.

People preach this peace, But Freedom is not Peace, it’s a constant struggle, a constant fight. The day we stop fighting, is the day we will loose our freedoms, all of them. A Docile people, willing slaves, are easy to control.

What is worth Fighting For? What is Worth Dying For? For what would you pay any price, even your life?

Now, please brother, do understand that I am not advocating War by any means. But, it is a question as to what price is our Freedom. Would we shed blood for politics, and not tears of salvation?



LOL! I said that very thing to a poster in the General Apologetics forum and he mocked me for saying it. Ironic, isn't it?

Irony, a very Sad Irony. So much has been paid my brother for them to speak as they do, I am only saddened they are take a price that has been paid so high so lightly.