When Is "Worship" Not Worship?

[Matthan]

This is a question that has longed troubled me. I have observed folks adhereing to other denominations kneel at various places and apparently pray to various "saints." And, of course, I have observed others using "prayer beads" as they say various ritual prayers.

My problem is this. Prayer is a distinct form of worship, just as singing hymns and meditating are other distinct forms of worship. Jesus clearly tells us that we are to worship God alone. So, are these prayers to "saints" false worship?

Oh, I fully realize that followers of most of the denominations in question will quickly claim they are not "worshipping" the saints when they pray to them. They may even add that they are simply asking the saints to interceed with God on their behalf. In almost every case they will claim that there is a small yet distinct difference between their prayers to saints and their prayers to God. But, is there a difference?

I know of one such person who prays to "saints" that told me his "prayers" are actually just him talking with the saints rather than actually praying to them. But what is prayer if it isn't just our talking to God?

Your thoughts, please.

Matthan <J><

[Gwenyfur]

Prayer is reserved for God alone. It's in the 10 commandments, it's in the Sermon on the Mount. It's in the Olivet Discourse.

When we pray we are to pray to God...period.

Prayer is worship, as much as singing, as much as kneeling. Yes, as a baptist, there are times that I'm incapable of standing or sitting before the throne of our most Holy God. There have been times I've kneeled, or been flat on my face in prayer. There's nothing false about it when done in true worship.

My problem with "praying" to saints is this...

These saints were human beings, born with the same seed of sinful Adam as the rest of us. Where in the Bible does Jesus say that anyone can come to the Father except by Him? In fact did He not say "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me." ? Why then would someone pray to a dead person, instead of a living Savior for intercession?

Intercessory prayer is a spiritual gift that the Holy Spirit endows Christians with. We are to pray to only the Living God. To pray to anyone or anything else is nothing but idolatry.

Just my opinion, based on Scripture.

[ZiSunka]

Although we agree that we are to pray to God alone, those other denominations don't see prayer as a form of worship, but a form of communication, so in their thinking they are communicating with the saints, not worshipping them. Now we can argue that it is wrong to communicate with the dead, and of course that is absolutely true, but those other denoms don't consider the saints dead, they are alive in heaven, waiting to help anyone who asks for it by petitioning Christ on behalf of the saints down here. They say that we are to pray for one another (absolutely true) and that they are merely asking the saints who are in closer proximity to help them by praying for them.

Now, that being said, there are enough Christians down here to pray on our behalf, and everyone who is a Believer in Christ is in as close proximity to any other person, living or dead, and the Lord hears our requests personally without needing intercessors between us and Him. Your direct prayer to God and mine is just as effective and powerful as the prayers of any deceased saint, and I'm not altogether certain that deceased humans can hear our prayers, anyway.

We are told that now that we are Believers, we can go boldly to the throne of God and ask for anything and he will hear us. He loves us, he wants to meet our needs and as many of our desires that are withing His will as possible, so there is no need to pray to someone else to ask them to pray for us. Go boldly in front of his throne and ask whatever you want from him.

Plus, prayer to us isn't always about asking for something. Sometimes it's just about having a conversation with him, and sometimes it's about being grateful for who he is and what he has already done for us. To do this for a deceased saint would be the worst kind of idolatry. Decesased saints, even if they can pray for us, can give us nothing. The Bible is clear that every good thing comes from the hand of God, so to thank or express praise to a deceased saint for something received is to replace God in your heart and that of course is idolatry in its most pure form.

[C.I. Scofield]

Praying to God in the Name of Jesus... anything else is Demonic.

Nuff Said.

CIS

:preach:

[RED that's ME]

MOD HAT ON

Please keep this a discussion on what the Baptist believe and do as worship instead of bringing other faiths/denominations into it. We have a rich history and plenty of scripture to post and discuss why we as Baptists believe and do in worshipping an awesome God. :angel:

MOD HAT OFF



I will post my thought later on worship since it is late and my dad is having surgery early in the morning and I would appreciate all of your prayers. :)

[Crazy Liz]

MOD HAT ON

Please keep this a discussion on what the Baptist believe and do as worship instead of bringing other faiths/denominations into it. We have a rich history and plenty of scripture to post and discuss why we as Baptists believe and do in worshipping an awesome God. :angel:

MOD HAT OFF

Please remember we're not all Baptists here.

Thanks!

[Crazy Liz]

I will post my thought later on worship since it is late and my dad is having surgery early in the morning and I would appreciate all of your prayers. :)
:prayer: Praying for your dad, Red.

[ZiSunka]

Please remember we're not all Baptists here.

Thanks!
Good point. And a lot of us got here through other denominations, which helped to shape our beliefs and are thus a part of our heritage, too, and a lot of Baptist beliefs are formed out of beliefs of those other denominations, and sometimes we learn more about our beliefs by comparing them to the beliefs of those other denominations.

Sometimes it is essential to fully understanding what we believe to know what others believe and why.

[Gwenyfur]

OKay taking the focus off prayer and onto the question of when is worship not worship...

If you're wondering what the person next to you is thinking about you while you're "worshipping" then it's not worship LOL

Worship ceases to be worship when your focus is not *completely* on God. If you're worrying about the dishes in the sink, or the mess in the basement, or what you're having for lunch after services, then you are not worshipping.

Worship is a complete mind, body and soul being focussed on God. Anything less is not acceptable to the Lord. Deut 4:35, Is 43:10, Jn 4:24

[RED that's ME]

Please remember we're not all Baptists here.

Thanks!

You're right I was very tired last night when I posted my MOD HAT ON/OFF post I should have said Baptist/AnaBaptist which I usually always do. :doh: Please if you see me post Baptist again know that I meant all those that fall under the Baptist/AnaBaptist group. I saw other faiths that don't fall under the Baptist/AnaBaptist umbrella here being discussed and wanted to keep this thread from being closed by members breaking the rules.

My church did a awesome study on Praise and Worship a while back I need to find my notes ;) and not one time was another faith/denomination brought up just what the Word of God had to say about it.:angel:


As for my dad keep praying please. :angel:
He went to have the surgery (gallbladder removal) but the anesthesiologist after trying for a long while to get a tube down my dad's throat couldn't and the surgeon took another special camera (forgot the name if it) through his nose and saw that the tube had caused his throat to be inflamed and bleed and the surgeon told him to stop. They released him from the hospital and will be rescheduling the surgery for next week to give my dad's throat time to heal. The anesthesiologist said this was the 2nd time that in his many years of practice this has happened. Please keep praying for healing of his throat and the doctors will have no problems next week in performing his surgery my family would greatly appreciate it. :)

[ZiSunka]

Red, I can appreciate that your church doesn't talk about what other denominations are doing or have done, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot to be learned from other denominations and their practices. I don't see the harm in discussing, "Other denominations do this or that, why don't we?" In fact, I see a lot more value in that than harm. By doing that, we learn whether or not our practices are scriptural and if they aren't we can change what we do. If we never discuss it, we can't learn. :)

Still praying for your dad by the way. How is he doing?

[Crazy Liz]

This is a question that has longed troubled me. I have observed folks adhereing to other denominations kneel at various places and apparently pray to various "saints." And, of course, I have observed others using "prayer beads" as they say various ritual prayers.

My problem is this. Prayer is a distinct form of worship, just as singing hymns and meditating are other distinct forms of worship. Jesus clearly tells us that we are to worship God alone. So, are these prayers to "saints" false worship?

Oh, I fully realize that followers of most of the denominations in question will quickly claim they are not "worshipping" the saints when they pray to them. They may even add that they are simply asking the saints to interceed with God on their behalf. In almost every case they will claim that there is a small yet distinct difference between their prayers to saints and their prayers to God. But, is there a difference?

I think if it violates your conscience, you shouldn't do it.

I know of one such person who prays to "saints" that told me his "prayers" are actually just him talking with the saints rather than actually praying to them. But what is prayer if it isn't just our talking to God?

Your thoughts, please.

Matthan <J><

It sounds like your friend knows the difference between such "prayers" and worship, and is not violating his conscience. In this connection, it might help you worry less about your friend to realize that "prayer" does not ONLY mean a form of worship. It is defined in various ways:

prayer1 ** *P***Pronunciation Key**(prâr)
n.
A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.

The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.


An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.

A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.

prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.

A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.

The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.


The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won't have a prayer.

Law.
The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.

The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.

[Middle English preiere, from Old French, from Medieval Latin precria, from feminine of Latin precrius, obtained by entreaty, from precr, to entreat. See pray.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



pray·er2 ** *P***Pronunciation Key**(prr)
n.
One who prays.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



Main Entry: prayer
Pronunciation: 'prer
Function: noun
: the part of a pleading (as a complaint) that specifies the relief sought; also : a request for relief or some other action by the court

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.



prayer

n 1: the act of communicating with a deity (especially as a petition or in adoration or contrition or thanksgiving); "the priest sank to his knees in prayer" [syn: supplication] 2: reverent petition to a deity [syn: petition, orison] 3: earnest or urgent request; "an entreaty to stop the fighting"; "an appeal for help"; "an appeal to the public to keep calm" [syn: entreaty, appeal] 4: a fixed text used in praying 5: someone who prays to God [syn: supplicant]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Although the word is most commonly used to describe a request to God or communication with God, this does not exhaust the definition. I would not be overly concerned about a friend who can clearly distinguish other forms of prayer from worship owed to God alone, but I also would not encourage anyone to engage in any form of prayer or other action that violates the person's own conscience.

[Gwenyfur]

Oldest was looking over my shoulder, saw the topic and said...

"when your heart's not in it"

Kids! So to the point. Subtle as a sledgehammer....just like her mom....

[aReformedPatriot]

In Hebrews, I am told that I may approach the throne of my Lord boldly and so I shall. I feel that if I may pray directly to the source of Divine truth, it would be redundant to go through any other "channels."

Can someone post scriptural support *for and against* praying to the saints whether your source is apocryophal or not. I'd like to get to the root of the matter.

[Crazy Liz]

In Hebrews, I am told that I may approach the throne of my Lord boldly and so I shall. I feel that if I may pray directly to the source of Divine truth, it would be redundant to go through any other "channels."
That sounds like a typically individualist Baptist "Jesus and me" way of looking at prayer. The less individualistic Anabaptists look at the "one another" commands, like "pray for one another," as having more importance, I think, and therefore would not make the same argument. Anabaptists might say prayer to saints smacks of idolatry or necromancy, but would not say they don't need anybody to pray for them.

[aReformedPatriot]

That sounds like a typically individualist Baptist "Jesus and me" way of looking at prayer. The less individualistic Anabaptists look at the "one another" commands, like "pray for one another," as having more importance, I think, and therefore would not make the same argument. Anabaptists might say prayer to saints smacks of idolatry or necromancy, but would not say they don't need anybody to pray for them.
Thats not what I said. To direct my prayers to the kingdom of heaven, in hopes of a passed saint to hear me and in turn pray for me is redundant. That doesnt discount earthly intercession. The quote "pray for one another" is directed at people on this earth isnt it?

[ZiSunka]

That sounds like a typically individualist Baptist "Jesus and me" way of looking at prayer. The less individualistic Anabaptists look at the "one another" commands, like "pray for one another," as having more importance, I think, and therefore would not make the same argument. Anabaptists might say prayer to saints smacks of idolatry or necromancy, but would not say they don't need anybody to pray for them.
As an anabaptist, I would say that although I love to have the living saints pray for me, I have no need to request the deceased saints to pray for me. Either they aren't aware of me in this world and thus my prayers would be for nothing, or they are aware of me in this world and they already know when I need extra help.

Living sainst, however, can communicate with me and might not be aware of my needs, so I do share prayer requests with them.

You need to be careful Liz, not to lump all anabaptists in with your own personal beliefs.

[Crazy Liz]

Thats not what I said. To direct my prayers to the kingdom of heaven, in hopes of a passed saint to hear me and in turn pray for me is redundant. That doesnt discount earthly intercession. The quote "pray for one another" is directed at people on this earth isnt it?
Of course it is directed to people on earth. I merely stated that most Anabaptists would not take an attitude that they don't need anyone else's prayers.
As an anabaptist, I would say that although I love to have the living saints pray for me, I have no need to request the deceased saints to pray for me.

[snip]

You need to be careful Liz, not to lump all anabaptists in with your own personal beliefs.

I said nothing different. I merely pointed out what seemed to be a difference between Baptists and Anabaptists, who would not say we have no need for others to pray for us. But apparently that was an exaggeration.

[Gwenyfur]

I attend a SBC and we consistently ask for and pray for each other?

I admit to learning a lot from this thread, but really could use some links for the doctrines being discussed. I'm apparently not typing in the right thing to find these specific thoughts or doctrines...
Thanks :)

[Leimeng]

~ Since one of the most important aspects of prayer and worship is communication with GOD, I wonder how many people actually LISTEN to GOD after they have spent time praying and worshipping? It seems that most times prayer is about telling GOD what to do and then rushing on with the rest of life.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

Why is lemon juice mostly artificial ingredients but dishwashing liquid contains real lemons?

[Matthan]

I am a bit confused. Does anyone who subscribes to this board, Baptists or Anabaptists, honestly believe that "prayer" is not "worship"?

I have read several comments referring to our innermost feelings and what-not. But I tend to look on this topic from another angle. Without desiring to be presumptious in any way, what are God's most likely feelings towards prayers to any but Him? I personally believe He is offended by every one of them, mainly because only He is worthy to receive our prayers or for us to pray to. Am I wrong?

Matthan <J><

[Gwenyfur]

I am a bit confused. Does anyone who subscribes to this board, Baptists or Anabaptists, honestly believe that "prayer" is not "worship"?

I have read several comments referring to our innermost feelings and what-not. But I tend to look on this topic from another angle. Without desiring to be presumptious in any way, what are God's most likely feelings towards prayers to any but Him? I personally believe He is offended by every one of them, mainly because only He is worthy to receive our prayers or for us to pray to. Am I wrong?

Matthan <J><
That's why I asked for links....I've always felt and always believed that prayer is worship....prayer is *always* worship. I'm confused by the prayer for others, prayer for one's self and the different specifics being discussed.

I hate to sound pious, but prayer time to me is praise, thanksgiving, confession, petitions for others and self, and then more thanks and more praise...along with a "quiet time" of silence, of being still, a time of just *being* at His feet. I find I'm more rested by a few minutes in prayer some days than by a 2 hour nap. Weird but true :)

Anyhow...that's just me...

[costlygrace]

Prayer is worship, obedience is worship, singing praises is worship. However, that is only true when we have no other gods iN our hearts at the time. Just as many in the Old Testament had to keep putting away the false gods from among them, even after they became God's people, so we also Must keep putting away the false gods from our hearts, as often as they creep in there.

Worship is not worship when we have left any room in our hearts for a false god, whether it be money, reputation, appearance, safety or security, comfort, pleasure, particular people, or anything else (without prayer you could miss it if you had a 1,000 page list of what it could be!) (Thinking about something when you should be praying, WHEN GOd did not specifically put those thoughts there, can also be an indication of an idol you have)

There are three ways to worship God: with the lips, with the mind, and with the heart. The first two are counterfeit (though what comes from the heart includes all three).

Heather, I am so sorry to hear about your dad! I will be praying! :prayer:

[Crazy Liz]

I am a bit confused. Does anyone who subscribes to this board, Baptists or Anabaptists, honestly believe that "prayer" is not "worship"?

No. Prayer is not ALWAYS worship. Prayer may be a fervent or formal request made to anyone, but especially a sovereign or a judge. Prayers directed to others, such as governmental authorities, are indeed prayers, but not worship.

IOW, prayer may be a synonym of "petition," which all would agree is only a form of worship when directed toward God.

[aReformedPatriot]

Supposed support for praying to the saints.

Praying to the Saints

"‘And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living . . .’" (Mark 12:26-27)

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely . . ." (Heb. 12:1).

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).



NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

[daveleau]

Prayer should ALWAYS be worship. Never does David (Psalms) or Jesus (Gospels) EVER pray without thanking God and praising Him. Our prayers should never be a laundry list of needs. We should always follow the examples of Scripture and pray as they did. That is a major reason for these passages of Scripture.

Not only should prayer ALWAYS be worship, but it is the most INTIMATE form of worship. When we sing or when we read the Bible or when we follow God's will, nothing is more intimate than prayer. It is you and God (through Jesus Christ, our intercessor) in direct communication without the use of other people's words. I am not discouraging the use of other's words from time to time, but MOST of the time, prayer should come from the heart and in your own words.

And not only should prayer ALWAYS be worship and not only is prayer the most INTIMATE form of worship, prayer should always be RESPECTFUL. I used to have conversations with God as I did my friends. This is not the way that Scripture teaches us. It should much more respectful than a employer-employee or general-new recruit relationship is. We should never put God on our level. He is the Creator and He is superior to us in every way. God should be treated with the utmost respect at all times.

God bless,
Dave

[daveleau]

One other note, the groups (for there is more than one) that people say pray "to" Saints, are not really praying "to" these Saints but using them for intercession. The problems that I find with this in Scripture (which are extensive and are obvious to many of us) are for another thread in another forum. But, I just wanted to point out this distinction.

[Matthan]

Dave, I agree with your first post above. ALL Prayer should always be directed only to God, and never anywhere else. For anyone to say that some prayers can be directed elsewhere is simply CRAZEY! With respect to living people, we can "talk" to others, or "plead" with others, or even "beg" others. But, we are never to "pray" to others.

And, as for the dead, they are dead. Either they are dead in Christ, which means they are living in Christ, or they are dead and lost. In either case, they do not rate any "prayers" being directed at them. Only God is worthy of our prayers.

Matthan <J><

[P_G]

You know maybe to redirect the discussion back to the OP

I really think that worship is when you are in direct communion with G-d.
And this can come in a variety of ways.

Maybe durring your prayer and meditation time
Perhaps as you read the scriptures
Perhaps it is when you are singing a song of praise and you really realize
"Hey I am saying this to Jesus" it becomes real

Yesterday I was doing some work at the church. And is not too unsual
no one came to help me. But we had service that night and we really needed
to have the ceiling tiles replaced and the floor scrubbed and waxed.

So there I was on my hands and knees in the church scurbbing the floor with steel wool and bleach and you know I was not doing it for a single congregant I was doing it because I truely wanted to bring the best before the L-rd.

When you are on your knees bringing the best to the L-rd it matters not if you are praying, singing or scrubbing. Your act of worship is when you give your all to him who is worthy. When are are at the point where saying I love you is the only thing that you want to do.


Blessings

Pastor George :wave:

[costlygrace]

You know maybe to redirect the discussion back to the OP

I really think that worship is when you are in direct communion with G-d.
And this can come in a variety of ways.

Maybe durring your prayer and meditation time
Perhaps as you read the scriptures
Perhaps it is when you are singing a song of praise and you really realize
"Hey I am saying this to Jesus" it becomes real

Yesterday I was doing some work at the church. And is not too unsual
no one came to help me. But we had service that night and we really needed
to have the ceiling tiles replaced and the floor scrubbed and waxed.

So there I was on my hands and knees in the church scurbbing the floor with steel wool and bleach and you know I was not doing it for a single congregant I was doing it because I truely wanted to bring the best before the L-rd.

When you are on your knees bringing the best to the L-rd it matters not if you are praying, singing or scrubbing. Your act of worship is when you give your all to him who is worthy. When are are at the point where saying I love you is the only thing that you want to do.


Blessings

Pastor George :wave:
Very true!!! :amen: :clap:

You have described the heart of true worship, which can take place anytime, anywhere.

Romans 12:1-2
I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. [2] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Worship that is from the heart, the only real kind, is the active giving of ourselves--our mind, tongue, hands, feet; all that we have and all that we are, to the will of the One whom we worship. Too much of the time we--tellingly--give all those gifts to self. :cry: We are Christ's hands and feet and tongue here on earth, and nothing short of the continual practice of this truth is true worship.

Peace to you! :wave:
costlygrace

[GreenEyedLady]

I am a bit confused. Does anyone who subscribes to this board, Baptists or Anabaptists, honestly believe that "prayer" is not "worship"?

I have read several comments referring to our innermost feelings and what-not. But I tend to look on this topic from another angle. Without desiring to be presumptious in any way, what are God's most likely feelings towards prayers to any but Him? I personally believe He is offended by every one of them, mainly because only He is worthy to receive our prayers or for us to pray to. Am I wrong?

Matthan <J><No you are not wrong.
1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

The whole reason WHY Christ died on the cross is so that we could have fellowship with God. There should be no one in the middle except Christ.
GEL