My first Sunday at a Lutheran Church

[CEV]

Today I attended the second worship service at a Lutheran (ELCA) church. Previous to this, I had attended an Episcopalian church.

The Lutheran church used liturgy just as the Episcopalian one did, but only played the organ and not the piano. The tunes were all cheerful instead of reverence-sounding (IMO). They used the chalice and the crackers, but they called it Holy Communion instead of the Holy Eucharest. Why is that?

We also read from a book written by Luther. It had hymns and liturgy in it.

Overall the experience was one that I liked. The services seemed kind of dead at some points, like the service was pointless and going nowhere meaningful, but the pastor was a very friendly and happy guy, and that made me feel welcome immediately.

The members were also very friendly and I felt at home right away as I sat and worshipped with them. I could tell that they were God's people.

However, that particular church isn't quite what I am looking for, but it's a little closer than the Episcopalian church I attended. I'm looking for more young adults in a church I would call my church home. I need to have a large base of people my age that I can make friends with and relate to and worship God with. So far these 2 churches had no more than 4 other young adults. MOst of the members at the Episcopalian church were middle aged, and at the Lutheran church there were lots of teens, kids, elderly people, and middle aged folks. Where are the young adults?

Anyway, I really like the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches, and I am going to attend more of them on Sundays.

[Phoebe]

Unless you attend a church near a college, you won't find many 18- 28 year olds attending. This is the age when many young people drop away from attending church on a regular basis. Have you tried an LCMS congregation yet?

[CEV]

Unless you attend a church near a college, you won't find many 18- 28 year olds attending. This is the age when many young people drop away from attending church on a regular basis. Have you tried an LCMS congregation yet?
The LCMS is far too conservative for me.

[Phoebe]

Ah. Okay. ;)

[SPALATIN]

Today I attended the second worship service at a Lutheran (ELCA) church. Previous to this, I had attended an Episcopalian church.

The Lutheran church used liturgy just as the Episcopalian one did, but only played the organ and not the piano. The tunes were all cheerful instead of reverence-sounding (IMO). They used the chalice and the crackers, but they called it Holy Communion instead of the Holy Eucharest. Why is that?

We also read from a book written by Luther. It had hymns and liturgy in it.

Overall the experience was one that I liked. The services seemed kind of dead at some points, like the service was pointless and going nowhere meaningful, but the pastor was a very friendly and happy guy, and that made me feel welcome immediately.

The members were also very friendly and I felt at home right away as I sat and worshipped with them. I could tell that they were God's people.

However, that particular church isn't quite what I am looking for, but it's a little closer than the Episcopalian church I attended. I'm looking for more young adults in a church I would call my church home. I need to have a large base of people my age that I can make friends with and relate to and worship God with. So far these 2 churches had no more than 4 other young adults. MOst of the members at the Episcopalian church were middle aged, and at the Lutheran church there were lots of teens, kids, elderly people, and middle aged folks. Where are the young adults?

Anyway, I really like the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches, and I am going to attend more of them on Sundays.

In answer to your first question, it is called communion because it is taken together with your fellow Christians and with the saints that have gone on before you and Christ. Eucharist is greek and means "thanksgiving". We see it as more than just thanksgiving and is a means of Grace for the communicant to receive forgiveness of sin through the body and blood of Christ.

As for the second question, Why do you seek to find only people your own age? Why not go to find out what wisdom these old people have? Maybe Phoebe has the right idea. Check out a Lutheran church in the Missouri Synod. They are not as liberal as the ELCA and ECUSA. You might find that no matter where you go in these churches though that there are less younger people there than you would like. You shouldn't be looking for a church to "network" yourself, but to receive God's blessings in your life.

Scott

[ByzantineDixie]

In answer to your first question, it is called communion because it is taken together with your fellow Christians and with the saints that have gone on before you and Christ. Eucharist is greek and means "thanksgiving". We see it as more than just thanksgiving and is a means of Grace for the communicant to receive forgiveness of sin through the body and blood of Christ.
Scott, I have never heard this before. I have heard the Sacrament called the following:

Holy Communion
Holy Eucharist or the Eucharist
The Lord's Supper
The Lord's Table

I have never heard there was a right an wrong with any of these. Can you point me to some sources that discuss this?

Thanks

Rose

[KagomeShuko]

Unless you attend a church near a college, you won't find many 18- 28 year olds attending. This is the age when many young people drop away from attending church on a regular basis. Have you tried an LCMS congregation yet?
Yeah, there aren't many young adults in ANY church. I was quite surprised that I found some younger youth workers at Youth Specialties' National Youth Workers Convention. There aren't that many, though. It's not just a problem in the ELCA, but one everywhere. It would be nice if people never stopped coming to church, but they do. . .I really don't know why. I know some college age people say they are just "too tired" on Sundays. Sad, that reason. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[filosofer]

Scott, I have never heard this before. I have heard the Sacrament called the following:

Holy Communion
Holy Eucharist or the Eucharist
The Lord's Supper
The Lord's Table

I have never heard there was a right an wrong with any of these. Can you point me to some sources that discuss this?

Thanks

RoseI'm not Scott... but :)

Eucharist comes from the Greek word meaning "thanksgiving" as Scott mentioned. However, it refers to the prayer before the Words of Institution which is the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving, or Eucharistic Prayer. This is a case where an individual part has been extended to refer to the whole. (Just like "wheels" will refer to the entire car, not just those four things that go round on the pavement)

There is no right or wrong description - however, there can be wrong emphases or wrong doctrines associated with specific terms. Eucharist or Mass are legitimate, but often have the RCC connotation, and so some people avoid those terms.

"Communion" comes from the Latin, which comes from the Greek KOINONIA, meaning fellowship or participation. Perhaps the classic statement of this is found in 1 Cor. 10:16 ("is not our drinking a participation [communion] in the blood of Christ?"). Thus, for Lutherans we see the vertical dimension of "communion", that is with Christ as he comes to us to offer forgiveness of sins. We also secondarily see communion horizontally as we confess together and receive together. BTW, the horizontal communion is not limited to the ones who at that physical moment are receiving the elements. Rather, we are in communion with all those who confess the faith. BTW in the preparation before the Words of Institution, we have this phrase "Therefore, with angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify ...." Thus, communion is not individualistic, but confessional and public. When someone receives communion at the table, that is a public declaration that we are confessing the Biblical faith and the Biblical view of the Sacrament, offering forgiveness of sins. If someone does not belive that, then why would they want to receive?

Of course, give a preacher/teacher an inch of daylight, and he will take four paragraphs to explain a simple concept. :)

[KagomeShuko]

Today I attended the second worship service at a Lutheran (ELCA) church.

The Lutheran church used liturgy just as the Episcopalian one did, but only played the organ and not the piano. The tunes were all cheerful instead of reverence-sounding (IMO). They used the chalice and the crackers, but they called it Holy Communion instead of the Holy Eucharest. Why is that?

We also read from a book written by Luther. It had hymns and liturgy in it.

Overall the experience was one that I liked. The services seemed kind of dead at some points, like the service was pointless and going nowhere meaningful, but the pastor was a very friendly and happy guy, and that made me feel welcome immediately.

The members were also very friendly and I felt at home right away as I sat and worshipped with them. I could tell that they were God's people.

Where are the young adults?

You mean the used wafers, not crackers. . .I've never in all my life heard somebody call the crackers :)

I've been ELCA for almost all my life . . . raised there, searched, found it the best for me and my beliefs, "returned" and am there still.

I've never read anything from a book by Martin Luther in the service.

We might do such a thing in Sunday School or hear a quote or two during a sermon, but I've never had that happen in the service.

Each part of the service has meaning to it, so I don't see how you found that it wasn't meaningful and was going nowhere.

As the others have said, don't look for a church to network yourself. Look for one that fulfills your spiritual needs. You might be surprised by what you find if you are open to realizing that just maybe you aren't meant to be in a church with young adults. Many young adults don't attend ANY church and only return for marriage and once they have children. I don't understand why, but it seems to happen.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ByzantineDixie]

Eucharist or Mass are legitimate, but often have the RCC connotation, and so some people avoid those terms.

Well, you know that I am not one of those people! ;)

Thus, for Lutherans we see the vertical dimension of "communion", that is with Christ as he comes to us to offer forgiveness of sins. We also secondarily see communion horizontally as we confess together and receive together. BTW, the horizontal communion is not limited to the ones who at that physical moment are receiving the elements. Rather, we are in communion with all those who confess the faith. BTW in the preparation before the Words of Institution, we have this phrase "Therefore, with angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify ...." Thus, communion is not individualistic, but confessional and public. When someone receives communion at the table, that is a public declaration that we are confessing the Biblical faith and the Biblical view of the Sacrament, offering forgiveness of sins. If someone does not belive that, then why would they want to receive?

Of course, give a preacher/teacher an inch of daylight, and he will take four paragraphs to explain a simple concept. :)
That's OK, you go, filo. Maybe you can expand even further. The information I bolded...this is not just a Lutheran understanding, is it? Wouldn't the same understanding of 1) Christ coming to us and 2) the communion of all the saints, past, present and future but the understanding of both the RCC and the EOC...Angicans as well, not just Lutherans?

Peace

Rose

[KagomeShuko]

I'm not Scott... but :)

Eucharist comes from the Greek word meaning "thanksgiving" as Scott mentioned. However, it refers to the prayer before the Words of Institution which is the Great Prayer of Thanksgiving, or Eucharistic Prayer. This is a case where an individual part has been extended to refer to the whole. (Just like "wheels" will refer to the entire car, not just those four things that go round on the pavement)

There is no right or wrong description - however, there can be wrong emphases or wrong doctrines associated with specific terms. Eucharist or Mass are legitimate, but often have the RCC connotation, and so some people avoid those terms.

"Communion" comes from the Latin, which comes from the Greek KOINONIA, meaning fellowship or participation. Perhaps the classic statement of this is found in 1 Cor. 10:16 ("is not our drinking a participation [communion] in the blood of Christ?"). Thus, for Lutherans we see the vertical dimension of "communion", that is with Christ as he comes to us to offer forgiveness of sins. We also secondarily see communion horizontally as we confess together and receive together. BTW, the horizontal communion is not limited to the ones who at that physical moment are receiving the elements. Rather, we are in communion with all those who confess the faith. BTW in the preparation before the Words of Institution, we have this phrase "Therefore, with angels and archangels, and all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify ...." Thus, communion is not individualistic, but confessional and public. When someone receives communion at the table, that is a public declaration that we are confessing the Biblical faith and the Biblical view of the Sacrament, offering forgiveness of sins. If someone does not belive that, then why would they want to receive?

Of course, give a preacher/teacher an inch of daylight, and he will take four paragraphs to explain a simple concept. :)
Yep, in our bulletins, we have the Eucharistic prayer, the Great Thanksgiving, and Holy Communion.

When I was little, I never understood "angels and archangels" and I thought the pastor was saying "angels that are gangels." :D LOL

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Tetzel]

Yeah, there aren't many young adults in ANY church. I was quite surprised that I found some younger youth workers at Youth Specialties' National Youth Workers Convention. There aren't that many, though. It's not just a problem in the ELCA, but one everywhere. It would be nice if people never stopped coming to church, but they do. . .I really don't know why. I know some college age people say they are just "too tired" on Sundays. Sad, that reason. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget
Being to tired can be a legitimate reason. If a young person is used to sleeping until 10 AM then going to class, then getting up in time to be ready for an 8:30 or even a 10:30 service is going to be difficult. I go to church at 7:30 PM on Wednesday night because that's when it is convenient.

[SPALATIN]

Being to tired can be a legitimate reason. If a young person is used to sleeping until 10 AM then going to class, then getting up in time to be ready for an 8:30 or even a 10:30 service is going to be difficult. I go to church at 7:30 PM on Wednesday night because that's when it is convenient.
Ah yes, Convenience. Maybe the church should hold services 24/7 so that people can attend when it is convenient for them.

I don't buy it. Are we only Christians when it is convenient? Do you think that God only blesses us when it is convenient for him? This society is lazy and it has bled into Church as well. This past Christmas eve, a football game between Minnesota and Green Bay had churches cancelling their services because people wanted to watch the game more than they wanted to go worship their Lord.
It wasn't that the NFL scheduled the game, but that the Churches compromised their schedule so that their congregations wouldn't have missed the game.

I wish that stores and especially malls were not open on Sundays or Holidays. I wish that things were not so convenient for people so that they would realize there is more to life than something being convenient.

[Zoomer]

Being to tired can be a legitimate reason. If a young person is used to sleeping until 10 AM then going to class, then getting up in time to be ready for an 8:30 or even a 10:30 service is going to be difficult. I go to church at 7:30 PM on Wednesday night because that's when it is convenient.
I am sorry but I disagree. Many times an excuse for young adults is being too tired when in reality, it's being to lazy. I worked 30 hours a week, attended college full time, and found time to go to church on Sunday mornings. It's all about motivation or the lack there of. I know many college age students who are too tired, but not from getting up classes but from partying Saturday night. Church isn't something that I fit into my schedule but what my schedule is based around.

[Tetzel]

Ah yes, Convenience. Maybe the church should hold services 24/7 so that people can attend when it is convenient for them.

I don't buy it. Are we only Christians when it is convenient? Do you think that God only blesses us when it is convenient for him? This society is lazy and it has bled into Church as well. This past Christmas eve, a football game between Minnesota and Green Bay had churches cancelling their services because people wanted to watch the game more than they wanted to go worship their Lord.
It wasn't that the NFL scheduled the game, but that the Churches compromised their schedule so that their congregations wouldn't have missed the game.

I wish that stores and especially malls were not open on Sundays or Holidays. I wish that things were not so convenient for people so that they would realize there is more to life than something being convenient.
The Catholics have mass each day and it's a good idea. There is no verse in the bible saying that God accepts worship from 8:30 to Noon on Sundays only. Even many Lutheran Student centers have their services on Sunday afternoon because they know that morning is difficult for a lot of people to make. If you are used to being in an office or a school at 9:00 AM every morning, then doing the same on Sunday isn't so hard but many people work at different times.

[Tetzel]

I am sorry but I disagree. Many times an excuse for young adults is being too tired when in reality, it's being to lazy. I worked 30 hours a week, attended college full time, and found time to go to church on Sunday mornings. It's all about motivation or the lack there of. I know many college age students who are too tired, but not from getting up classes but from partying Saturday night. Church isn't something that I fit into my schedule but what my schedule is based around.
A church that is unwilling to realize that many of it's potential members cannot or will not be there within a 4 hour margin of time during the week has no right to complain about lack of attendence.

[CrossWiseMag]

A church that is unwilling to realize that many of it's potential members cannot or will not be there within a 4 hour margin of time during the week has no right to complain about lack of attendence.

Horse hockey. God is handing out the very stuff of eternal salvation in the Divine Service. If someone _CANNOT_ be there at that time, it's a different argument. But if someone _WILL NOT_ be there at that time because it's inconvenient, it's that person's loss--not the church's. And a church certainly has the right to "complain about a lack of attendance," because such a lack of attendance (over issues of convenience) is a violation of the 3rd commandment. While much of modern American Christianity might have ceded the "right to complain about" (i.e. to preach against) sin in believer's lives, the Lutheran church has not.

To be very clear, I am not including in this argument a person who literally _cannot_ be present on many Sunday mornings for work, or whatever. (A pastor should certainly minister to that person in whatever way appropriate--including, possibly, an encouragement to figure out a way to be in church when possible.) My argument here is simply against the notion that "the church" is being somehow restrictive of our individual rights of convenience by holding the Divine Service during a 4-hour window on Sunday morning.

[SPALATIN]

A church that is unwilling to realize that many of it's potential members cannot or will not be there within a 4 hour margin of time during the week has no right to complain about lack of attendence.
Sorry Tetzel as I said before the church should never bend to the convenience of others. It is not a 7-11. Too often the church is expected to give in to cultural convenience. If you are too lazy to get out of bed on Sunday morning it shows your true priorities. You first and God whenever you get around to it.

[Tetzel]

God hands out the same stuff of eternal salvation in the Divine Service on Wednesday as he does on Sunday.

[CrossWiseMag]

When Scott comes across sounding like the inflexible, grumpy old man, you know the other side is coming from out in left field somewhere. ;) I, myself, always sound inflexible and grumpy. But Scott's like the nice uncle, not the mean one.

[Tetzel]

Sorry Tetzel as I said before the church should never bend to the convenience of others. It is not a 7-11. Too often the church is expected to give in to cultural convenience. If you are too lazy to get out of bed on Sunday morning it shows your true priorities. You first and God whenever you get around to it.
Sunday morning is chosen for the convenience of some. Many go to the 8:30 service to get it out of the way and have a large segment of Sunday free for other activities. If I know that there is a Lutheran Church offering service on Wednesday evening, why shouldn't I be able to choose it over Sunday morning?

[SPALATIN]

Sunday morning is chosen for the convenience of some. Many go to the 8:30 service to get it out of the way and have a large segment of Sunday free for other activities. If I know that there is a Lutheran Church offering service on Wednesday evening, why shouldn't I be able to choose it over Sunday morning?
I disagree with you 100 percent.

[Tetzel]

Horse hockey. God is handing out the very stuff of eternal salvation in the Divine Service. If someone _CANNOT_ be there at that time, it's a different argument. But if someone _WILL NOT_ be there at that time because it's inconvenient, it's that person's loss--not the church's. And a church certainly has the right to "complain about a lack of attendance," because such a lack of attendance (over issues of convenience) is a violation of the 3rd commandment. While much of modern American Christianity might have ceded the "right to complain about" (i.e. to preach against) sin in believer's lives, the Lutheran church has not.

Orthodox Jews and 7th Day Adventists would say that even those going on Sunday are breaking the 3rd commandment. Luther's Small Catechism says of the third commandment "We must fear and love God, so that we will not look down on preaching or God's Word, but consider it holy, listen to it willingly, and learn it." Insisting on Sunday just legalism. And if your church is insolvent because people chose to hear it across town on Saturday or Wednesday evening then it is your own fault. You have no monopoly on God's word and they can take their membership elsewhere.




To be very clear, I am not including in this argument a person who literally _cannot_ be present on many Sunday mornings for work, or whatever. (A pastor should certainly minister to that person in whatever way appropriate--including, possibly, an encouragement to figure out a way to be in church when possible.) My argument here is simply against the notion that "the church" is being somehow restrictive of our individual rights of convenience by holding the Divine Service during a 4-hour window on Sunday morning.
I am not claiming that people have a right to convenience, but rather that given a choice of attending one of several services in a week that it is not wrong for a person to choose the time that is easiest for them to make.

[Tetzel]

I disagree with you 100 percent.That's nice, but you've not demonstrated the why part of the question

[Jim47]

Ah yes, Convenience. Maybe the church should hold services 24/7 so that people can attend when it is convenient for them.

I don't buy it. Are we only Christians when it is convenient? Do you think that God only blesses us when it is convenient for him? This society is lazy and it has bled into Church as well. This past Christmas eve, a football game between Minnesota and Green Bay had churches cancelling their services because people wanted to watch the game more than they wanted to go worship their Lord.
It wasn't that the NFL scheduled the game, but that the Churches compromised their schedule so that their congregations wouldn't have missed the game.

I wish that stores and especially malls were not open on Sundays or Holidays. I wish that things were not so convenient for people so that they would realize there is more to life than something being convenient.

I agree with you very much on this Scott. I grew up in an age when the only thing opne on Sundays was a few gas stations and resturants and the hospital.

I have known people who work 3rd shift on Saturday night, come home tired and take a shower and head for church. Yes, there are a few people who's jobs won't permitt them to attend church on Sundat morning, but there also a lot of people who have chosen these jobs knowing that they would have to give up Sunday morning worship.

Its all a matter of priorites in most cases (but not all)

[ByzantineDixie]

Wow, this is the most law laden thread I have ever read in here. I had to look at the header to make certain I was still in the Lutheran forum!

The reality is that grace through faith draws us to church. We'll get up early to go, we'll stay up late to go, We'll go on Wednesday evenings, we'll go on Thursday mornings...any chance, any time we are able to experience Christ's gift of himself as offered in Word and Sacrament.

Church is not a "have to" its a "get to". Frankly...Wednesday evening "counts" but I can't imagine only being satisfied with Wednesday evening if we can have Sunday, too.

Also...I agree with Tetzel. Regarding campus life...it is good if services are offered Sunday afternoon or evening. Let's not assume everyone who needs Word and Sacrament has a faith so strong it will shake them out of their beds on Sunday morning. Christ met the people where they are. Lots of college campus ministries hold their services later in the day so the kids are more apt to attend. They have to be in the seats to be fed with Word and Sacrament--it is from this feeding that faith can be nurtured and attending worship transitions from a "have to" to a "get to".

(Horse Hockey??? CWM....you'll have to get ChiRho to teach you to curse in Latin! ;) ^_^ )

Peace

Rose

[filosofer]

That's OK, you go, filo. Maybe you can expand even further. The information I bolded...this is not just a Lutheran understanding, is it? Wouldn't the same understanding of 1) Christ coming to us and 2) the communion of all the saints, past, present and future but the understanding of both the RCC and the EOC...Angicans as well, not just Lutherans?


Thus, for Lutherans we see the vertical dimension of "communion", that is with Christ as he comes to us to offer forgiveness of sins. We also secondarily see communion horizontally as we confess together and receive together. BTW, the horizontal communion is not limited to the ones who at that physical moment are receiving the elements. Rather, we are in communion with all those who confess the faith.


Actually, Rose, you have hit on the essential point of the Lord's Supepr and the distinction between Lutherans and others. And you did it by your last post (# 26):


Wow, this is the most law laden thread I have ever read in here. I had to look at the header to make certain I was still in the Lutheran forum!

The reality is that grace through faith draws us to church

The vertical dimension for Lutherans has to do with grace, entirely "for the forgiveness of sins"; whereas by doctrinal statement, the RCC is concerened with Law-performance - "doing enough to merit grace" (or as one RCC person put it, "getting my ticket punched" enough.

[CrossWiseMag]

Orthodox Jews and 7th Day Adventists would say that even those going on Sunday are breaking the 3rd commandment. Luther's Small Catechism says of the third commandment "We must fear and love God, so that we will not look down on preaching or God's Word, but consider it holy, listen to it willingly, and learn it." Insisting on Sunday just legalism.
And no one is insisting on Sunday. I don't care WHEN the Divine Service is held. But when it's offered, it's up to people to show up. If they don't, it's not the church's fault. It's a matter of their misplaced priorities. The gifts are being offered. Show up at the time they're being offered in all their fullness, or not. But don't act like a church doesn't care about "reaching out" because it holds its services on Sunday morning, when the vast majority of people are perfectly capable of being there.

In addition, I don't recommend taking theological cues from the 7th Day Adventists or Orthodox Jews.

And if your church is insolvent because people chose to hear it across town on Saturday or Wednesday evening then it is your own fault. You have no monopoly on God's word and they can take their membership elsewhere.
Where did this come from? Name one church, anywhere in the United States, that is "insolvent" primarily because of its Sunday morning worship time. Just one.

People can, and certainly will, take their membership elsewhere for all sorts of reasons. Much of the time, God's word tells us it's because they have itching ears and those itches are scratched better in churches that present false teaching.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church DOES have a monopoly on God's pure Word, by the way. So if someone is going to a non-Lutheran church at a more convenient time, he might be edified, but it's not edification in the pure Word and Sacrament ministry that the Lutheran church presents.

I am not claiming that people have a right to convenience, but rather that given a choice of attending one of several services in a week that it is not wrong for a person to choose the time that is easiest for them to make.
Well, that doesn't seem to be what you argued initially. The initial post that prompted my response took churches to task for complaining about attendance troubles when they only offer Sunday morning services. Ask yourself if any church is really losing members over that. More likely, if someone so misunderstands Christianity that he thinks another denomination is just as good as Lutheranism, service times are the least of the reasons that person is going somewhere else.

-----------

Rose, if this thread is coming across as legalism, that is not my intention. There certainly is a reason to insist that making time for church when it's offered is an expectation of the law. We can hardly be remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy if we are despising God's precious gifts of Word and Sacraments because we're not "used to" being up at 9 a.m.

However, my argument in this instance is not so much about that. I'm simply saying that a 4-hour Sunday morning time period -- with many churches offering more than 1 service in a morning -- is really not that constraining on anyone. Some seem more willing to fault the church for lack of attendance than the individual who's failing to show up. While I admit there are certain cases when someone cannot make the Sunday morning service for whatever legitimate reason, that does not apply to most people who are not in church on, in my opinion.

You're right, too, that going to church is also about wanting to go to church. This is where church growthism goes wrong, I think. The way to get people to want to go to church is not to give them a new service time, but to teach them just exactly what they're getting in the Divine Service. If our churches preach Law & Gospel rightly divided, the Holy Spirit will work. It's amazing how easy it is to get up a little early when the Holy Spirit is your alarm clock.

[SPALATIN]

Orthodox Jews and 7th Day Adventists would say that even those going on Sunday are breaking the 3rd commandment. Luther's Small Catechism says of the third commandment "We must fear and love God, so that we will not look down on preaching or God's Word, but consider it holy, listen to it willingly, and learn it." Insisting on Sunday just legalism. And if your church is insolvent because people chose to hear it across town on Saturday or Wednesday evening then it is your own fault. You have no monopoly on God's word and they can take their membership elsewhere.




I am not claiming that people have a right to convenience, but rather that given a choice of attending one of several services in a week that it is not wrong for a person to choose the time that is easiest for them to make.
The first post you made was in regards to a college student who plans his day so that he can sleep in and then go to church later or on a different night altogether just because it is convenient for them to do. However, church services have traditionally been on Sunday Mornings. Yes, they have 2 services and early and late which is convenient, but what of the church that has too small a congregation that it only plans one service and Sunday School?

They can't be convenient for everyone and so they pick a time that most people agree with and that is that. For some people it is not going to be convenient

[Tetzel]

And no one is insisting on Sunday. I don't care WHEN the Divine Service is held. But when it's offered, it's up to people to show up. If they don't, it's not the church's fault. It's a matter of their misplaced priorities. The gifts are being offered. Show up at the time they're being offered in all their fullness, or not. But don't act like a church doesn't care about "reaching out" because it holds its services on Sunday morning, when the vast majority of people are perfectly capable of being there.
A church that offers only Sunday morning worship is insisting on Sunday by its very deeds. When they complain about young people not showing up maybe they should realize that maybe it is because the young people are still going to be sleeping for awhile. Holding services at 1:30 and 3:30 AM on weeknights probably would keep a lot of people from being around as well.


In addition, I don't recommend taking theological cues from the 7th Day Adventists or Orthodox Jews.
Nor do I, which is why I consider the 3rd commandment point to be moot.


Where did this come from? Name one church, anywhere in the United States, that is "insolvent" primarily because of its Sunday morning worship time. Just one.
There are many churches that are insolvent because of their inability to maintain membership. Of course it would be impossible to trace the exact cause to one factor because usually there are many factors contributing to the problem. Some churches are losing membership because people consider the preaching to be too weak. Some churches are failing because Lutherans are moving out of the neighborhood and find new Lutheran churches. Some churches are probably failing because people would rather drive a few blocks to go to a "living praise" or "contemporary" service. To believe that services being held only at a time when a huge proportion of people prefer to be unconscious or are just getting up and ready to start the day is ignoring reality.

People can, and certainly will, take their membership elsewhere for all sorts of reasons. Much of the time, God's word tells us it's because they have itching ears and those itches are scratched better in churches that present false teaching.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church DOES have a monopoly on God's pure Word, by the way. So if someone is going to a non-Lutheran church at a more convenient time, he might be edified, but it's not edification in the pure Word and Sacrament ministry that the Lutheran church presents.

Actually I was speaking completely within the context of Lutheran churches. My town is not too large and even then presents the option of choosing one of several Lutheran churches to attend. One has services on Saturday and Sunday, another on Sunday and Wednesday, the others only on Sunday. When I moved here several months ago I had to choose a new church. I chose the one that offered the most traditional liturgy and offered the most services. None of them has a monopoly on the word or sacrament and even further if one is in the ELCA then an Episcopalian Church is adequate as well. Unless we switch to a geography-based parish structure, as I've seen in the Catholic Church, choice of which church to attend will be decided by individuals. These individuals are going to look at many factors to decide which particular congregation to join. Among those factors will be worship style, preaching style, location, and convenience.


Well, that doesn't seem to be what you argued initially. The initial post that prompted my response took churches to task for complaining about attendance troubles when they only offer Sunday morning services. Ask yourself if any church is really losing members over that. More likely, if someone so misunderstands Christianity that he thinks another denomination is just as good as Lutheranism, service times are the least of the reasons that person is going somewhere else.
I would never suggest that another denomination is as good a Lutheranism. That does not change the fact that there are other denominations out there and that Lutheranism needs to be able to compete with these denominations. You have rightly said that other churches teach false doctrines that can harm people. It is the duty of the Lutheran church to teach and spread the true word of God and if that means holding more frequent or more conveniently timed services, so be it. St. Paul didn't say "let them come here to hear the Gospel" he went all over the Roman empire to spread the word and we shouldn't say "Let them show up at 8:30 or 10:00 on Sunday morning" It doesn't matter why they can't or won't be there on Sunday morning either, if they were busy drinking and fornicating all Saturday night that is only more of a reason that they need to hear the word.

[Phoebe]

Today I attended the second worship service at a Lutheran (ELCA) church. Previous to this, I had attended an Episcopalian church.

The Lutheran church used liturgy just as the Episcopalian one did, but only played the organ and not the piano. The tunes were all cheerful instead of reverence-sounding (IMO). They used the chalice and the crackers, but they called it Holy Communion instead of the Holy Eucharest. Why is that?

We also read from a book written by Luther. It had hymns and liturgy in it.

Overall the experience was one that I liked. The services seemed kind of dead at some points, like the service was pointless and going nowhere meaningful, but the pastor was a very friendly and happy guy, and that made me feel welcome immediately.

The members were also very friendly and I felt at home right away as I sat and worshipped with them. I could tell that they were God's people.

However, that particular church isn't quite what I am looking for, but it's a little closer than the Episcopalian church I attended. I'm looking for more young adults in a church I would call my church home. I need to have a large base of people my age that I can make friends with and relate to and worship God with. So far these 2 churches had no more than 4 other young adults. MOst of the members at the Episcopalian church were middle aged, and at the Lutheran church there were lots of teens, kids, elderly people, and middle aged folks. Where are the young adults?

Anyway, I really like the Lutheran and Episcopalian churches, and I am going to attend more of them on Sundays.

Back to the original topic...

CEV, sometimes God puts you where others need you. Church is not just for you, it is for others around you. Maybe you have something unique to offer this congregation- don't give up too soon. Maybe someone near your age will visit, see another person their age, and decide to stay, thus building up the number of young adults. Who knows?
:)

[SPALATIN]

A church that offers only Sunday morning worship is insisting on Sunday by its very deeds. When they complain about young people not showing up maybe they should realize that maybe it is because the young people are still going to be sleeping for awhile. Holding services at 1:30 and 3:30 AM on weeknights probably would keep a lot of people from being around as well.
Personally, I don't complain that young people don't show up because the church is not going to dissolve if they don't show up. The important thing in the church is the word and sacrament is offered. It is not important who shows up. If God wants to grow his church, he will, not us.


Remembering my college days, I know that not too many students study on Saturday nights. Some go home for the weekend, some go to the bars and party and others just have the party at the school (which I understand is becoming more difficult with the new liability laws). If these young people can't get out of bed to at least get to the late service at the church that is their problem and not the church's. The church doesn't lose, the student does.

Nor do I, which is why I consider the 3rd commandment point to be moot.

There are many churches that are insolvent because of their inability to maintain membership. Of course it would be impossible to trace the exact cause to one factor because usually there are many factors contributing to the problem. Some churches are losing membership because people consider the preaching to be too weak. Some churches are failing because Lutherans are moving out of the neighborhood and find new Lutheran churches. Some churches are probably failing because people would rather drive a few blocks to go to a "living praise" or "contemporary" service. To believe that services being held only at a time when a huge proportion of people prefer to be unconscious or are just getting up and ready to start the day is ignoring reality.

Actually I was speaking completely within the context of Lutheran churches. My town is not too large and even then presents the option of choosing one of several Lutheran churches to attend. One has services on Saturday and Sunday, another on Sunday and Wednesday, the others only on Sunday. When I moved here several months ago I had to choose a new church. I chose the one that offered the most traditional liturgy and offered the most services. None of them has a monopoly on the word or sacrament and even further if one is in the ELCA then an Episcopalian Church is adequate as well. Unless we switch to a geography-based parish structure, as I've seen in the Catholic Church, choice of which church to attend will be decided by individuals. These individuals are going to look at many factors to decide which particular congregation to join. Among those factors will be worship style, preaching style, location, and convenience.All of these factors are part and parcel of the Church growth movement. I don't measure a church by how many people attend it. I measure it by what God is doing there. A church isn't hundreds or thousands of people, but rather what is preached among 2 or 3 people. Matt 18:21 says "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." As for the ELCA/Episcopalian thing I can tell you that I was and am still against that merger which is why I left the ELCA.

I would never suggest that another denomination is as good a Lutheranism. That does not change the fact that there are other denominations out there and that Lutheranism needs to be able to compete with these denominations.Why? I am not interested in competing with any other church for members. Just because they are stealing sheep doesn't mean that we should counter them. Church isn't about competing with others. We have a tried and true product and the others don't. If someone doesn't want to be with us and hear the true word then I say let them go. I will still receive the same blessings that I did before when they were there, but will they still receive the same Gospel? Will they receive the sacraments and all the blessings that go with them? I doubt it.


You have rightly said that other churches teach false doctrines that can harm people. It is the duty of the Lutheran church to teach and spread the true word of God and if that means holding more frequent or more conveniently timed services, so be it. St. Paul didn't say "let them come here to hear the Gospel" he went all over the Roman empire to spread the word and we shouldn't say "Let them show up at 8:30 or 10:00 on Sunday morning" It doesn't matter why they can't or won't be there on Sunday morning either, if they were busy drinking and fornicating all Saturday night that is only more of a reason that they need to hear the word.Now that is the best argument you have given. All the stuff before doesn't compare to what you have written in this last paragraph.

[Alexis OCA]

The vertical dimension for Lutherans has to do with grace, entirely "for the forgiveness of sins"; whereas by doctrinal statement, the RCC is concerened with Law-performance - "doing enough to merit grace" (or as one RCC person put it, "getting my ticket punched" enough.

Would you kindly post the reference to that particular "doctrinal statement". I am unaware of it, especially in light of recent theological agreements between Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

[KagomeShuko]

Regarding campus life...it is good if services are offered Sunday afternoon or evening. Let's not assume everyone who needs Word and Sacrament has a faith so strong it will shake them out of their beds on Sunday morning. Christ met the people where they are. Lots of college campus ministries hold their services later in the day so the kids are more apt to attend. They have to be in the seats to be fed with Word and Sacrament--it is from this feeding that faith can be nurtured and attending worship transitions from a "have to" to a "get to".


Yes, around the campus of the college I attended, there are at least five different student centers of different denominations. Every Wednesday they offered free lunch and with that there's somebody who comes and preaches.

I went to the Baptist Collegiate Ministry with one of my friends once. I wasn't personally impressed with what was being preached, but the place was packed. I wouldn't doubt that many of the college students go to one of these and consider this their "church" for the week.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[CEV]

I've noticed that there are people here, as well as from other denominations, who feel that their denomination is the "true" church, or preaches the "true Word of God," or teaches the "true way." Etc etc etc. My church is the only one that does it right. My church does it the best.

This is the very thing I have rejected. I think that most denominations are attended by God's people and that they each are serving God in different ways. The "my church is the only true one" mentality is just too narrow.

[KagomeShuko]

I've noticed that there are people here, as well as from other denominations, who feel that their denomination is the "true" church, or preaches the "true Word of God," or teaches the "true way." Etc etc etc. My church is the only one that does it right. My church does it the best.

This is the very thing I have rejected. I think that most denominations are attended by God's people and that they each are serving God in different ways. The "my church is the only true one" mentality is just too narrow.
I completely agree - but never argue with an SDA :D ;)

Anyway, that's what's great about a Lutheran church, too. We may say we have better theology, but we are not the ONLY Christians or the ONLY church.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[SPALATIN]

Would you kindly post the reference to that particular "doctrinal statement". I am unaware of it, especially in light of recent theological agreements between Roman Catholics and Lutherans.
I am sure that filo will post it for you. As far as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) you will find that not all Lutherans signed this document. The ELCA in America and a few of the Lutheran Churches in Europe and Canada signed, but the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Evangelical Lutheran Synod have not signed this document nor will they any time soon. Just because one Lutheran says yes doesn't mean that we all do.

[CrossWiseMag]

I've noticed that there are people here, as well as from other denominations, who feel that their denomination is the "true" church, or preaches the "true Word of God," or teaches the "true way." Etc etc etc. My church is the only one that does it right. My church does it the best.

This is the very thing I have rejected. I think that most denominations are attended by God's people and that they each are serving God in different ways. The "my church is the only true one" mentality is just too narrow.
I used to think this way until I started looking for answers to my questions in the Lutheran confessions. Lo and behold, those confessions line up beautifully with what the Bible teaches! No other church can say that. Well, they can all say that, but they're all wrong.

You say this is too "narrow" for you. I'd ask you to point out something in the Book of Concord that is an incorrect teaching. Bring that disputed point of doctrine here, or to a Lutheran pastor. When you find something doctrinally wrong in there--something without the support of the Bible and the historic church catcholic--the house of cards that is Lutheranism will fall. Then, I'll head over to the liberal theology board to issue a blanket apology to all those folks who've accused people like me of being too "narrow."

If you can't find anything, maybe you, like me, will come to rethink your position that "truth" is too "narrow."

[ChiRho]

We also read from a book written by Luther. It had hymns and liturgy in it.

Are you sure about that? If so, what was the name of the book?

[Organist]

My first service in a Lutheran church (aside from our marriage ceremony) was a Matins service. It remains my favorite service to this day, perhaps because it was my first experience with this church. :)