What is Decision Theology?

[Lutherrunner]

I saw this term in somebody's profile and I hadn't heard the term before. Can somebody explain this in fairly simple terms?......thanks....:scratch::scratch:

[BBAS 64]

I saw this term in somebody's profile and I hadn't heard the term before. Can somebody explain this in fairly simple terms?......thanks....:scratch::scratch:
Good Day, Lutherrunner

Decision Theology teaches that sinful human beings have the power to "decide for Christ" when the Holy Spirit comes to convert them. Decision Theology teaches that the unregenerate human will has a role to play in conversion

http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/doc-03.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/1464/luther_warns_about_the_dangers_of_decision_theology.html

Basiclly it teaches one has to make some decision to follow Christ.


Peace to u,

Bill

[Tertiumquid]

Good Day, Lutherrunner


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/1464/luther_warns_about_the_dangers_of_decision_theology.html

Basiclly it teaches one has to make some decision to follow Christ.


Peace to u,

Bill
It also assumes the will is free to make that decision. Does the name "Pelagius" ring a bell??

Merry Christmas Bill.

God bless,
James

[Lutherrunner]

It also assumes the will is free to make that decision. Does the name "Pelagius" ring a bell??

Merry Christmas Bill.

God bless,
James
Pelagius?......never heard of that......:scratch:

[BBAS 64]

It also assumes the will is free to make that decision. Does the name "Pelagius" ring a bell??

Merry Christmas Bill.

God bless,
James
Ding ... DING,

Thanks James Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!!:thumbsup:

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Pelagius?......never heard of that......:scratch:Good Day, Lutherrunner

Pelagius was a monk that believed that man retained his abilty to follow God and God's laws after the fall. He was roundly refuted by Augustine.

Pelagianism was a doctrine espoused by Pelagious, monk from Britain in the 5th century. According to Pelagius, original sin did not exist and humans were not born inherently sinful and unable to do good. Although unlikely, he did believe it possible for a person to live without sin through their own efforts and without the intervention of divine grace. He was opposed by Augustine of Hippo.

To some degree Erasmus held to the same school of thought.

You may find this helpfull:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=605

Peace to u,

Bill

[theologia crucis]

Lutherrunner, here's one description of the heretic (he lived in the 4th Century, if memory serves):

The British monk Pelagius, Augustine’s opponent in the great controversy over grace and works of that time, lent his name to the view that salvation can be accomplished by human creatures apart from, or with the assistance of very little, divine grace.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

Also:

Pelagianism. Inside the church this means that some believe that human contributions add to God’s grace or are strengthened by God’s grace in order to achieve a measure of righteousness. Such a view is named for the fourth-century monk Pelagius. Against Augustine he advanced the view that believers take the initial and fundamental steps toward their own salvation by their own efforts. Once they have begun the process, God adds his grace to bring these efforts to perfection. Pelagianism emphasizes human works at the expense of God’s grace.

Kolb, Robert. The Christian Faith : A Lutheran Exposition. electronic ed. St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing House, 2000, c1993.

In short, historic, confessional Lutheranism has always rejected Pelagianism has a terrible heresy, because it sets us up as a cause or partial cause of our salvation. In short, Pelagianism goes against the sola gratia (grace alone) of the Scriptures and Lutheranism.

Clear as mud?!

[Jim47]

Lutherrunner, here's one description of the heretic (he lived in the 4th Century, if memory serves):



Also:



In short, historic, confessional Lutheranism has always rejected Pelagianism has a terrible heresy, because it sets us up as a cause or partial cause of our salvation. In short, Pelagianism goes against the sola gratia (grace alone) of the Scriptures and Lutheranism.

Clear as mud?!
Crystal clear to me, since thats what the Bible teaches. Who do we believe? A man, or God Our Father and Jesus Our Savior?

[sculpturegirl]

I grew up with some version of "decision theology." The way I understood/stand the "decison" seems more Lutheran than Baptist, however. Much emphasis was placed on the "conversion experience," but later we realized that some people awaken in Christ in different ways. My experience was marked by an overwhelming, undeniably wooing of the Holy Spirit and I picked up my cross and followed. I didn't wake up one day thinking, "Today I am going to be a Christian." We were taught that no one could come to the Father, unless wooed by the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit would present himself to every inhabitant of the earth in one way or another. Then the decision part comes- are you going to answer "the call" or not? That is how I have understood it to be. I remember my father saying "Today is the day of Salvation!" meaning that our salvation isn't locked in by a conversion experience, but each day by Grace through faith.

As I understand Lutheran theology, we do not come to Christ, but He to us. We have the wherewithall within us to reject Him, but not to accept him. There is some decision to reject, isn't there?

Part of the reason I came to Lutheranism is because I felt that Luther better articulated things that I know to be true, but he writing made it clearer.

[Bulldog]

Crystal clear to me, since thats what the Bible teaches. Who do we believe? A man, or God Our Father and Jesus Our Savior?

So you're a a Lutheran who believes in synergism (salvation as a cooperativer effort between man and God)? :eek:

[SPALATIN]

I grew up with some version of "decision theology." The way I understood/stand the "decison" seems more Lutheran than Baptist, however. Much emphasis was placed on the "conversion experience," but later we realized that some people awaken in Christ in different ways. My experience was marked by an overwhelming, undeniably wooing of the Holy Spirit and I picked up my cross and followed. I didn't wake up one day thinking, "Today I am going to be a Christian." We were taught that no one could come to the Father, unless wooed by the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit would present himself to every inhabitant of the earth in one way or another. Then the decision part comes- are you going to answer "the call" or not? That is how I have understood it to be. I remember my father saying "Today is the day of Salvation!" meaning that our salvation isn't locked in by a conversion experience, but each day by Grace through faith.

As I understand Lutheran theology, we do not come to Christ, but He to us. We have the wherewithall within us to reject Him, but not to accept him. There is some decision to reject, isn't there?
When all we have by our own reason or power is to reject him that is not a decision.

Part of the reason I came to Lutheranism is because I felt that Luther better articulated things that I know to be true, but he writing made it clearer.
Whatever your reason was you ended up in the right camp.

[Jim47]

So you're a a Lutheran who believes in synergism (salvation as a cooperativer effort between man and God)? :eek:
Never heard of that word before, and going by your description of it, I would have to answer NO! I believe that God calls us all, but we have been given free will to heed His calling or reject it. If I'm not mistaken, this is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Isa 30:15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:

"In repentance and rest is your salvation,

in quietness and trust is your strength,

but you would have none of it.


Jer 15:5 "Who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem?

Who will mourn for you?

Who will stop to ask how you are?

Jer 15:6 You have rejected me," declares the LORD.

"You keep on backsliding.

So I will lay hands on you and destroy you;

I can no longer show compassion.


Because you have rejected knowledge,

I also reject you as my priests;

because you have ignored the law of your God,

I also will ignore your children.

Hos 4:7 The more the priests increased,

the more they sinned against me;

they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.

Hos 4:8 They feed on the sins of my people

and relish their wickedness.

Hos 4:9 And it will be: Like people, like priests.

I will punish both of them for their ways

and repay them for their deeds.

Hos 4:10 "They will eat but not have enough;

they will engage in prostitution but not increase,

because they have deserted the LORD

to give themselves 11 to prostitution,

to old wine and new,

which take away the understanding 12 of my people.


These, the chosen people of God, rejected God and then fell into unrepentant sin. This is of course only just a couple examples of people rejecting God when He has called them. We still have that ability to reject, but it is God who calls us, we need only to listen to His Words and heed His calls, then faith is born and cultivated and brings Jesus righteousness to us.

I apologize for not better explaining myself the first time.

[JVAC]

Never heard of that word before, and going by your description of it, I would have to answer NO! I believe that God calls us all, but we have been given free will to heed His calling or reject it. If I'm not mistaken, this is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Isa 30:15 This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:

"In repentance and rest is your salvation,

in quietness and trust is your strength,

but you would have none of it.


Jer 15:5 "Who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem?

Who will mourn for you?

Who will stop to ask how you are?

Jer 15:6 You have rejected me," declares the LORD.

"You keep on backsliding.

So I will lay hands on you and destroy you;

I can no longer show compassion.


Because you have rejected knowledge,

I also reject you as my priests;

because you have ignored the law of your God,

I also will ignore your children.

Hos 4:7 The more the priests increased,

the more they sinned against me;

they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.

Hos 4:8 They feed on the sins of my people

and relish their wickedness.

Hos 4:9 And it will be: Like people, like priests.

I will punish both of them for their ways

and repay them for their deeds.

Hos 4:10 "They will eat but not have enough;

they will engage in prostitution but not increase,

because they have deserted the LORD

to give themselves 11 to prostitution,

to old wine and new,

which take away the understanding 12 of my people.


These, the chosen people of God, rejected God and then fell into unrepentant sin. This is of course only just a couple examples of people rejecting God when He has called them. We still have that ability to reject, but it is God who calls us, we need only to listen to His Words and heed His calls, then faith is born and cultivated and brings Jesus righteousness to us.

I apologize for not better explaining myself the first time.
Unfortunately I must disagree here, Lutheran dogma on this particular subject is largely discussed in Luther's "Bondage of the Will" but summarized succinctly in the Augsburg Confession:


Article XVIII: Of Free Will.

1] Of Free Will they teach that man's will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work 2] things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man 3] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2, 14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received 4] through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good 5] or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good 6]pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" 7] I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc. 8] They condemn the Pelagians and others, who teach that without the Holy Ghost, by the power of nature alone, we are able to love God above all things; also to do the commandments of God as touching "the substance of the act." For, although nature is able in a manner to do the outward work, 9] (for it is able to keep the hands from theft and murder,) yet it cannot produce the inward motions, such as the fear of God, trust in God, chastity, patience, etc.

The underlining was mine. It is impossible for a man, sinful from conception, to choose God, for his will is enslaved to Sin. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"; even though we are led to the salvific water, Christ, we cannot be made to drink unless we have the will, the only way we obtain the will is to by obtaining the Holy Ghost, something only God alone can give. Our sinful will doesn't want Christ, it wants to follow its own route, but through the Word, we are given a new will from the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Not all have the Holy Ghost, only those whom God so wills, and who's hearts are not hardened to stone.

Through the Grace of the Word and the Sacraments are we given the Holy Ghost, without which we cannot choose God, because of our sin.

Peace of Christ
-James

[Organist]

Ah, but still, the Israelites were a stiff-necked people, as we all are. We can make "decisions" until the cows come home, but it is God who makes it work. I'm probably the last person in the world who should be writing anything on this, because I'd rather just let Luther say it, as he infinitely does it best. (So pleeeze don't beat on me too hard here.) :( I cannot make it sound right, no matter how hard I try.

[Lutherrunner]

does the concept of predestination creep in here somewhere?

[Jim47]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gif http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-left.gifOriginally Posted by: Augsburg Confession http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gif
Article XVIII: Of Free Will.

1] Of Free Will they teach that man's will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work 2] things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man 3] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2, 14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received 4] through the Word.

My apologies again, I thought thats what I wrote.

[SPALATIN]

does the concept of predestination creep in here somewhere?
The Calvinists believe in double-predestination which is that God wills that some be saved and others to be damned. Lutherans believe in Universal predesination, which says that God wills that all are saved, but knows that some will reject him anyways.

[filosofer]

The Calvinists believe in double-predestination which is that God wills that some be saved and others to be damned. Lutherans believe in Universal predesination, which says that God wills that all are saved, but knows that some will reject him anyways.That isn't quite the Lutheran position regarding predestination. We believe that God predestines people to heaven, but we do not believe that the Bible teaches the other half - namely that God predestines people to hell (which Calvinists believe). Also, we view predestination in light of Christ; that is, someone is predestined to salvation because of being "in Christ" (see Ephesians 1:3-14 for the specific phrasings related to predestination and "in Christ").

The question arises in this form:

Why are some saved, and others not?" (you can look up the Latin phrase that is used ;) ).

There are three basic positions:

1. The Calvinists answer the question with "God". That is, if someone ends up in heaven, it is God who is responsible; if someone ends up in hell, God is responsible. (hence double predestination)

2. Arminians answer the question with "man". That is, if a person ends up in heaven, the person "chooses" (decision for salvation); if someone ends up in hell, the person "chooses" hell. This is the most logical, because we seem to have choices in every other area of life. (BTW, how many people would "choose hell"?)

3. Biblical response is: there is not one question but two questions:

"Why are some saved?" - God chooses; God works through the means of grace to accomplish this. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

"Why are some not saved?" - Person chooses; the person continues in his/her sin and rebellion against God. (John 3:18)

[Rechtgläubig]

Why do all the fun topics always open up when I am away out of town?

:(



I don't even have the time to throw down a Deutschlander quote. :sigh: (Is that why everyone waits??? :cry: )


Jim, I got a paper for you to read when you have time. It won't be for a while before I can send it though.

[Jim47]

Jim, I got a paper for you to read when you have time. It won't be for a while before I can send it though.
Great, if you lost my personal e-mail address, just PM me and I'll give it to you. Thanks for thinking of me. :wave:

[sculpturegirl]

3. Biblical response is: there is not one question but two questions:

"Why are some saved?" - God chooses; God works through the means of grace to accomplish this. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

"Why are some not saved?" - Person chooses; the person continues in his/her sin and rebellion against God. (John 3:18)

This is what I have understood, but thought about it in terms of making a "decision." I have decided not to reject Christ, but it is the Holy Spirit who enables me to accept him. Perhaps just a mis-use of the word, "decision" on my part.

[filosofer]

It can be confusing - the person has only one "choice" to continue in sin.

However, once some comes to faith, that person is alive, active, etc. Thus, a Christian can make spiritual choices for God or against God. That is the basis of the exhortation in Rev. 3:20 - it is spoken to those who already have been called into a relationship with God. This text is a classic example of those who advocate decision theology make use of a Biblical passage to support something that the passage does not support; i.e. Rev. 3:20 does not support a decision theology to "make a decision to come to faith in Jesus".

[Jim47]

Since this whole thread is devoted decision theology, I'm just wondering if any of you have carried on a conversatio with someone who believes in this, but has different versions of what the "decision" actually is?

I have talked to some people who believe that "all have been called" but only some have "decided" to answer the call. I think many people who attend the churches who teach this are very confused themselves as to what it actually means? Am I wrong? :scratch:

[SPALATIN]

Since this whole thread is devoted decision theology, I'm just wondering if any of you have carried on a conversatio with someone who believes in this, but has different versions of what the "decision" actually is?

I have talked to some people who believe that "all have been called" but only some have "decided" to answer the call. I think many people who attend the churches who teach this are very confused themselves as to what it actually means? Am I wrong? :scratch:
Well Jim,

My wife for one, believes we are all talking about the same things, but that we use different language to express it. I disagree with that because her understanding of how we come to salvation is skewed from a Baptist/Methodist emphasis on Arminianism. Arminius, stressed that human beings have the free will to choose God or reject God based on reason.

To have this understanding one must deny that we are born into sin. Scripture teaches us that because of one man, Adam, we are all sinners and deserve death. We are also taught in Scripture that we are saved through another man, That man Jesus Christ.