Preterism and Bible Prophesy [Archive]

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 11:32 AM

Hello,

I am starting this thread to provide a place where Christians who hold to the Preterist view of Bible prophesy can fellowship with oneanother, and provide sober reason for our faith to anyone who wishes to call us to account.

For those of you who do not know what the preterist view is, here is an outline of what we believe:

"Preterist" means past in fulfillment. Preterists believe that Bible eschatology (the doctorine of the "Last Things") has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Kingdom.

The "Preterist" interpretation of Bible prophecy has been mentioned several times in publications such as Christianity Today, Christian News, Great Christian Books catalog, World Magazine, and several others. Scores of preterist books, tracts, video and audio tapes have been produced and many more are on the way. It is beginning to capture significant public attention, and is "spreading like wildfire" at the grass roots level. It is compatible with the essential beliefs of all Christians, and is already represented in nearly all Protestant denominations as well as the Roman Church.

When will Christ return? This question is relevant, and can be answered by scripture. Jesus seems to have answered it very clearly in these passages (Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34). Ever wonder why the First Century Christians expected Jesus to come in their lifetime, and where they got this expectation from? Take a look at the extreme sense of imminency in these passages: James 5:8,9; 1 Pet. 4:7; Matt. 10:23; Matt. 16:27,28; Matt. 24:34. These verses have always troubled Bible students, and have been used by liberal theologians to attack the inspiration of Scripture. They reason that these passages were not fulfilled when they were supposed to be (the first century generation), so Jesus and the NT writers failed in their predictions and were therefore not inspired. But these verses point to Christ's coming in some sense in connection with the Fall of Jerusalem at 70 AD. So, Jesus' predictions were fulfilled. He did not fail, nor do we need to engage in theological gymnastics to try to explain-away the seeming delay or postponement of His return. It happened right on schedule. Many knew the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was important in God's scheme of redemption, but never understood its full significance. It has to do with the consummation of the plan of redemption. The final events of the redemptive drama came to pass in the first century within the apostles' generation (before A.D. 70). Christ's kingdom is here now. Paradise has been restored in Christ. We live in the Garden of Eden now (if we are in Christ), just as sure as we can know we have "eternal life." These are present and abiding benefits, not pie-in-the-sky bye-and-bye. Christ has conquered all His enemies and has given us the Kingdom.

This view offers a much more positive and realistic worldview. It is conservative, consistent, optimistic, responsible and accountable. And it robs us of no motivation for either living the Christian life, or evangelizing the world. In fact, it's the only view which gives us a consistent reason for being constructively involved in making the world a better place for the long-term, unlike the short-term escapist and withdrawal mindset of most futurists.

Bible prophecy absolutely makes sense when approached from this past-fulfillment (preterist) perspective! It has an optimistic worldview that gets involved, makes a positive difference, and lights a candle, rather than cursing the darkness, longing for a rapture-escape, or retreating from society. It doesn't engage in wild-eyed speculation like futurist views. It's just simple, straight-forward Bible interpretation.

Some of the great theologians and scholars of the last 300 years have suggested the preterist view for consideration, but traditional Christianity was too caught up with the idea that the Pope was the Antichrist or some other such Futurist notion. But that has changed. We are not as gullible now as they were when William Miller, Darby, C. T. Russell, Rutherford, Scofield, Walvoord, and Hal Lindsey came along. A constant barrage of false predictions has made us more wary.

Most Christian theologians in Europe a century ago took a somewhat preterist approach, and none of them considered it unorthodox. One of the leading proponents of the preterist view a century ago was James Stuart Russell (not to be confused with the Jehovah's Witness founder with the same last name, Charles Taze Russell - there is no relation). J. S. Russell (1816-1895) published a book in 1878 entitled, The Parousia (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russell.html). Click link for online version!

Many who never knew anyone else took the preterist view have independently discovered it in the Scriptures, and are finding Biblical prophecy bursting with meaning now. If you haven't taken a look at it, it is time you did!

I look forward to a rich and rewarding exchange with all who choose to discuss this fascinating topic!

YBIC,
P70

Hoonbaba

23rd April 2002, 11:56 AM

I just thought I'd share this article by an atheist attacking Matthew 24:34:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html

-Jason

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 12:22 PM

Thanks Hoon, Great link!
That should be a real eye opener!

TScott

23rd April 2002, 01:25 PM

Hi Perousia70,

I found your post very interesting. I have never actually heard the reference to Preterism but I have always thought that the prophesy of Jesus' return was that he would return in the 1st c. I have always thought that an imminent return does a lot in explaining Paul's behavior and I also believe that much of the symbolism found in Revelation can also back up your preteristic idea.

If one reads the 17th ch. of Revelation, that this is the precursor to the Apocalyptic event, then it starts becoming quite clear that this apocalypse will indeed take place with the fall of Jerusalem.

In the 17th chapter we find the Whore of Babylon who is seen with the scarlet beast. Across her forehead is written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. She is also said to be drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. To me it becomes obvious that the Whore of Babylon is the city of Jerusalem. The beast she is on has seven heads, and And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. These portray with the seven Roman emperors that will have fallen before the destruction of Jerusalem.

It would appear that most, possibly all, of the prophesies in Revelation were fulfilled when the city of Jerusalem were destroyed.

Acts6:5

23rd April 2002, 01:50 PM

Great insights, TScott!

Indeed, the "whore","Babylon", and "Sodom and Egypt" were all names given to Apostate Jerusalem, the city "where also our Lord was crucified(Rev. 11:8)". I know of no other place where our Lord died on a cross except Jerusalem.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by parousia70
Many who never knew anyone else took the preterist view have independently discovered it in the Scriptures, and are finding Biblical prophecy bursting with meaning now.

Tscott, It would appear that you fall into the category above, having never heard of preterism, while drawing the same conclusions as preterists.

Your post was excellent, displaying how beautifully simple preterism is and how easily it erases the plethera of contradictions, stretching and twisting needed to support a 'future to us' 2nd coming.

Your comments bring to light one of the many very serious problems with futurist theology.

"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8).

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men. ...They always fill up the measure of their sins" (I Thess. 2:14-16).

In the consistent futurist doctrine, all people who call themselves Jews today are left wide open to being automatically viewed with special suspicion by Christians. Futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," and on the other hand they must remain a blood-guilty race of enemies who are opposed to all men, and whose Metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then tread under foot for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). During that Great Tribulation which culminated in the destruction of the City and the Sanctuary in A. D. 70, the wrath of God against the Jews had come to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and the Jews had paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last cent (Lk. 12:54-59). When the fleshly covenant-nation was disinherited as God's covenant people in 70, God's wrath against her was finished. After that day, the Jews became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). And there is not one class (or "race") of man today that is in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.

Hoonbaba

23rd April 2002, 04:38 PM

Hi TScott =)

May God continually bless your studies!! I think you'll enjoy preterist teachings, though I don't know if you'll fully agree with it. Anyway, check out this link:

http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

It may help you understand more on preterism =)

God bless!

-Jason

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 06:02 PM

Thanks for posting that link Hoon, I had forgotton about it. It is a great overview of preterist teachings.

Whooda thunk that Jerry Fallwells University taught a course on the Biblical merrits of Preterism?!

The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways. :clap:

Hoonbaba

23rd April 2002, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by parousia70
Thanks for posting that link Hoon, I had forgotton about it. It is a great overview of preterist teachings.

Whooda thunk that Jerry Fallwells University taught a course on the Biblical merrits of Preterism?!

The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways. :clap:

Amen!! =) Actually, I don't think it's a class ON preterism, it's a class on eschatology which includes various eschatological positions including preterism.

But it's still funny how thye include preterism in that class =)

-Jason

Craigybabe

23rd April 2002, 06:08 PM

Hi P70!

Please take the time to read this.

Matthew 24 vs 32-36 ('The Message' translation)

Take a lesson from the fig tree. From the moment you notice its buds form, the merest hint of green, you know summer's just around the corner. So it is with you: When you see all these things, you'll knpw he's at the door. Don't take this lightly. I'm not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place. Sky and earth will wear out;my words won't wear out. But the exact day and hour?" No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, NOT EVEN THE SON. Only the Father knows

I'm kinda baffled because Jesus is apparently predicting his arrival in Matt 10:23 etc like you say,but in the verses above he says that not even he knows when he will be returning. Only the Father knows.

I'm confused!

Can you share any light on this?

God Bless

Craig

davo

23rd April 2002, 06:11 PM

G'day P70 :wave: and thanks for starting this section up over here -this should keep the board chiefs "others" happy -in the words of Hot Chocolate "everyone's a winner baby..."

davo

davo

23rd April 2002, 06:25 PM

23rd April 2002, 06:38 PM

Only the day and the hour were left unrevealed (perhaps as much as a season).

Jesus says:

"pray that your flight (out of the city of Jerusalem) be not in the winter (the season) nor on the sabbath (a day of the week)."

Psalm6

23rd April 2002, 06:53 PM

I just have one question for the preterists, how do you deal with the prophecy about satan being bound a thousand years?

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Craigybabe
Hi P70!

Please take the time to read this.

Matthew 24 vs 32-36 ('The Message' translation)

Take a lesson from the fig tree. From the moment you notice its buds form, the merest hint of green, you know summer's just around the corner. So it is with you: When you see all these things, you'll knpw he's at the door. Don't take this lightly. I'm not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place. Sky and earth will wear out;my words won't wear out. But the exact day and hour?" No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, NOT EVEN THE SON. Only the Father knows

I'm kinda baffled because Jesus is apparently predicting his arrival in Matt 10:23 etc like you say,but in the verses above he says that not even he knows when he will be returning. Only the Father knows.

I'm confused!

Craig

Hi Craig if I may clear this up. Yes it is true that Jesus said no man know the day or hour only the Father. However there is a big deference in knowing the "day and hour" of his return then knowing the "time frame" of his retuen. A time frame is a statement that promises certain events will take place within a stated time limit. (Matthew 10:23)

For example: If I tell a friend I'm coming over his house this weekend. That's a time statement. However my friend has no idea the "day and hour" I will arrive. He just know I will arrive over the weekend.

You are expecting company. Your guests are scheduled to arrive at noon for lunch. Time statements, previously made, govern your behavior. At noon the phone rings, and you learn your guests are lost. You give new directions and tell them they will be at your house in a half-hour (if they don't foul up again). You make plans to keep the food fresh and ready based on the new time statement.

God uses time statement too. He created time so, He above all knows how important time statements are to our lives and our understanding of events. The Bible is full of time statements. And do this knowing the time that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer then when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand (Romans 13:11) This is one of God's time statements.

Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Corinthians 10:11) According to Paul these thing happened to them their fathers and were written for their admonition upon whom the ends of the ages have come. What end of the ages? The ages of Judaism. This two was a time statement from God.

"For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry (Hebrews 10:37) This too is a time statement from God. You also be patient. Establish your hearts for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:8-9) This too is a time statement from God.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep these things which are written in it for the time is near (Revelation 1:3) This too is a time statement from God. "Behold, I am coming quickly! 22:7. "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand vs 10. "And behold, I am coming quickly vs 12 "Surely I am coming quickly vs 20. All these are time statement from God. They may not have known the "day of hour" but they did know the "time frame of His return (Matthew 23:34-36;24:34).

BigEd

23rd April 2002, 08:43 PM

I have a question for any preterist . jerusalem was sacked in 70 ad.
the book of revelation has been dated around 90 ad. so is the book of revelation still unfufilled?

If Christ did retuen in 70ad, does that mean we are in the millelium?

The world we are living in dosen't seem much like the millenium described in revelation.

I ask these questions as a means to understand your position better.
I am futurist, but I have not really heard a whole lot about pretism.

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
I just have one question for the preterists, how do you deal with the prophecy about satan being bound a thousand years?

Hi Psalm6:wave:

The binding of Satan was the preaching of the kingdom of God. When the Lord sent seventy disciples out on a "missionary tour" he empowered them to cast out demons, heal the sick, and raise the dead (Luke 10). Their message was "The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you" (v. 9). When they returned they were ecstatic: "Lord even the devils are subject unto us through thy name." He responded "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Satan was bound and suffering defeat.

The term a thousand years is not to be taken literaly. The reason why Satan was bound durning the time of the changing of the covenants was so the gosple could be preach without any interference of satanic forces.

It should be noted during the ministry of the disciples and the preaching of the gospel the powers of darkness and satanic forces were specifically against the come of the kingdom. In the interim between the resurrection and the judgment Satan is depicted as very actively engaged in attempting to destroy God's people. Peter depicts Satan
as a "roaring lion" seeking whom he may destroy (I Peter 5:8). If it had not been for the binding of Satan durning the preaching of the gospel many would not have been saved.

However because Satan was bound and could not stop the preaching of the gospel that does not mean that the saints were not killed for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God.

The binding of Satan really started with Jesus. Matthew 12:22-30, Jesus cast a demon out of a man. The Pharisees insisted it was by the power of the Devil. Jesus logically demonstrated the fallacy of Satan casting out Satan. He then challenged them "how can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." Jesus' power to cast out demons demonstrated two facts: the imminence of the kingdom (v. 28); and the binding of Satan (v. 29). Satan was being bound by Jesus!

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by BigEd
I have a question for any preterist . jerusalem was sacked in 70 ad.
the book of revelation has been dated around 90 ad. so is the book of revelation still unfufilled?

If Christ did retuen in 70ad, does that mean we are in the millelium?

The world we are living in dosen't seem much like the millenium described in revelation.

I ask these questions as a means to understand your position better.
I am futurist, but I have not really heard a whole lot about pretism.

Hi Big Ed,
Great Questions, all of which can be more than satifactorily answered from the preterist position.

Yours are the same questions I asked (among many more) when I was first exploring preterism. I was a staunch futurist for 18 years, and it took me about 2.5 years to finally feel comfortable enough to accept the truth of past fulfillment. Take your time!

As for the dating of Revelation, to save space here, I'll direct you to a couple links that give supporting arguments
for the early date (66-68AD) which I adhere to.

Basically the only evidence anyone has for the late date (95AD) is from one obscure statement made by Irenaeus that John's vision was seen near the end of Dominitions reign. All other sources rely on His statement alone. But it can also be interprated that Irenaeus said "John" himself was seen, not his vision. At any rate, Irenaeus also said Christ lived to be 50 among many other unorthodox views!

Click HERE (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/kiser-greg_p_02.html) or HERE (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/hopkins-jim_p_06.html) for those commentaries.

As to your question about the 1000 years, no we are not currently in that time. We are beyond it.
:clap:

Preterists are, for the most part, post millennial, believing that 70AD was the end of the millennium.
Click HERE (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/kiser-greg_p_04.html) for a list of reasons why preterists are confident the 1000 years lie behind us.

God Hunting, and keep asking those questions!! Test this view against the scriptures!!! Don't take anyones word for it but the Apostles!

YBIC,
P70

Acts6:5

23rd April 2002, 09:58 PM

Hey all!

To all of my Christian brothers and sisters who hold the futurist view, and who have asked questions about preterism, I just want to thank you for your politeness and honest inquiries. I also want to thank you for treating us preterists with respect so far (sometimes we don't get much of it).

Whether you agree with us or not - thanks! We are still one Body.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Craigybabe
Hi P70!

Please take the time to read this.

Matthew 24 vs 32-36 ('The Message' translation)

Take a lesson from the fig tree. From the moment you notice its buds form, the merest hint of green, you know summer's just around the corner. So it is with you: When you see all these things, you'll knpw he's at the door. Don't take this lightly. I'm not just saying this for some future generation, but for all of you. This age continues until all these things take place. Sky and earth will wear out;my words won't wear out. But the exact day and hour?" No one knows that, not even heaven's angels, NOT EVEN THE SON. Only the Father knows

I'm kinda baffled because Jesus is apparently predicting his arrival in Matt 10:23 etc like you say,but in the verses above he says that not even he knows when he will be returning. Only the Father knows.

I'm confused!

Can you share any light on this?

God Bless

Craig

Hya Craig, thanks for making the jump over here!

A few things come to mind when I look at this passage.

1)Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, showing THEM how to know when it is near. Was He misleading them into believing He would return to them?

2)Even if Jesus dd not know the day or hour, He clearly could have known the "generation" decade, or year.. A Pregnant woman does not know the day or hour she will give birth but she knows that about 9 months after conception, she's having a baby! (as a side note, nowhere in scripture do we find the day or hour of Jerusalems 70AD destruction prophesied. No one knew the day or hour of that event.)

3) Jesus, still speaking to the apostles says:
When you (the apostles) see all these things, you'll (the apostles) know he's at the door.

Jesus is telling the apostles point blank that He would not be near until certain signs were seen by them (the apostles). Not before the signs were seen, but only WHEN or AFTER they were seen, would they be able to proclaim and believe that Jesus was Near and at the door.

James, teaching some 30 odd years later, claims that at the time he was writing, that Jesus was in fact "near and at the door". (James 5:8-9) James knew full well that Jesus could only be near and at the door after the signs of Matt 24 had been seen, because Jesus told him so.

This leaves only 2 options that I can see:

1)James saw the signs of Matt 24 that Jesus told him he would see.

2) James thought he saw the signs but was wrong.

If there is a third, I'd like to hear it! but for now, I've got to go with #1

YBIC,
P70

Thinker

23rd April 2002, 10:14 PM

I have seen speculation now and again that the trials and tribulations refered to in Revelations were written in anticipation of the 2nd Jewish revolt (the Bar kochba revolt of AD 135). Unlike the 1st Jewish revolt, the 2nd was planned out for decades in advance, and involved the Jews allying themselves with the Parthians in a revolt against Rome. However, the Parthians themselves were invaded at about the same time the revolt began, and the 2nd Jewish revolt failed as a result.

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Acts6:5
Hey all!

To all of my Christian brothers and sisters who hold the futurist view, and who have asked questions about preterism, I just want to thank you for your politeness and honest inquiries. I also want to thank you for treating us preterists with respect so far (sometimes we don't get much of it).

Whether you agree with us or not - thanks! We are still one Body.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

As our brother put it so well. Thank you all.

Your servent :)

Hoonbaba

23rd April 2002, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by parousia70
2)Even if Jesus dd not know the day or hour, He clearly could have known the "generation" decade, or year.. A Pregnant woman does not know the day or hour she will give birth but she knows that about 9 months after conception, she's having a baby! (as a side note, nowhere in scripture do we find the day or hour of Jerusalems 70AD destruction prophesied. No one knew the day or hour of that event.)

I just thought I'd share some fascinating things I came across:

Anyone notice the connection among all these passages?

Isaiah 66:7-9, Hosea 13:13-14, Matthew 24:7-9, Mark 13:8, Romans 8:22, Revelation 12:2-5

I honestly don't know if they're referring to the same thing but I think they are =)

God bless!!

-Jason

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by parousia70

Hya Craig, thanks for making the jump over here!

A few things come to mind when I look at this passage.

1)Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, showing THEM how to know when it is near. Was He misleading them into believing He would return to them?

2)Even if Jesus dd not know the day or hour, He clearly could have known the "generation" decade, or year.. A Pregnant woman does not know the day or hour she will give birth but she knows that about 9 months after conception, she's having a baby! (as a side note, nowhere in scripture do we find the day or hour of Jerusalems 70AD destruction prophesied. No one knew the day or hour of that event.)

Very good points brother. It should also be noted Craig, nowhere in scripture does Jesus ever says (we would not know after He returned either. In fact Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would lead his people unto (all truth).

Psalm6

23rd April 2002, 11:04 PM

What does it matter what views we have on the Rapture or Preterism? As long as we all have a relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't think we should argue, only discuss. Hats off to everyone for keeping it cool. As long as we all know Jesus in our hearts, we'll all go to Heaven, whether by death or Rapture :D

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

I just thought I'd share some fascinating things I came across:

Anyone notice the connection among all these passages?

Isaiah 66:7-9, Hosea 13:13-14, Matthew 24:7-9, Mark 13:8, Romans 8:22, Revelation 12:2-5

I honestly don't know if they're referring to the same thing but I think they are =)

God bless!!

-Jason

Hi Hoonbaba you hit the nail dead on the head. They are all within the very same context in referring to the birth of the kingdom. The male Child who the woman gives birth to in Rev. 12 who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron was the Church, as seen in Rev. 2:26 Good insites brother.

Manifestation1*AD70

23rd April 2002, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
What does it matter what views we have on the Rapture or Preterism? As long as we all have a relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't think we should argue, only discuss. Hats off to everyone for keeping it cool. As long as we all know Jesus in our hearts, we'll all go to Heaven, whether by death or Rapture :D

Hi Psalm6 point well taken brother. A Bible dictionary I have hits the nail right on the head. "Believers who are living at the return of Christ will be transformed into the kingdom of God with passing through death.

Did you also know? Nobody ever heard of a pre-tribulation rapture before 1830. In England, where the theory originated, it has all but vanished. Still in America the specter lives on, and at the local church level it persists strongly.

Morgan Edwards was born in May 9, 1722, in Trevethin Parish, Monmoughshire, Wales about 100 miles from Bristol, England. He died in 1795, long before Margaret Macdonald was ever born, and long before J.N. Darby ever developed his pre-tribulation rapture theory. In fact, the book which by Morgan Edwards giving us his views on eschatology. Was published in 1788- ever before Emmanuel Lacunza's book was completed in manuscript from 1790 The crux of the matter is that Edwards published the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture long be before Margaret Macdonald and J.N.Darby. Edwards' first pastorate was a small church in Boston England. Seven years later he became pastor of Baptist church in Cork, England. It was here he was ordained to the ministry in 1757

Edwards then resigned from the pastorate after 10 years, and in 1771 became an intinerant evangelist helping the churches of the Southern colonies from the Philadelphia Baptist Association. Morgan Edwards in America was "one of the most important and influential Baptist leaders during the latter part of the eighteenth century." "He is mentioned in all of the histories of Baptists in the United States." Edwards was highly influential in the Baptist life of America. He was the first historian of Baptists in America. Albert Henry Newman's (A History of the Baptist Church in the United States 1894).

Morgan Edwards certainly did bring "strange things" to the Baptist people in America 1788 Edwards believed that the "lake of fire brimstone was "on the moon"! Edwards was a literalist so far as the New Testament was concerned, but not as much as with the Old Testament. Edwards believed that Abraham looked for a real literal city. He acknowledged the Bible was the word of God, while not denying the textual difficulties.

It is thought that a fifteen year old girl in Scotland by the name of Margaret Macdonald was the originator of pre-tribulation teaching in 1830. It has also believed that the lrvingites in England started publishing this teaching in 1830 after getting it from Margaret Macdonald. It has been published that she was the first ever to teach a pre-tribulation rapture. At any rate, it was in 1830, forty-two years after Morgan Edwards'book was published, in Philadelphia Pa so we know now that she was not the originator of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. Morgan Edwards was the first it ever teach a pre-tribulation rapture. Edwards' book was published in 1788 According to Edwards, the Rapture should have accursed 3 ½ years before the beginning of the Millennium in 1996. This means that the "literal rapture" should have accursed in 1993. Well it didn't!

From what source did Morgan Edwards get his theory of the pre-tribulation rapture, or was it something that he devised in his own mind independently of others? From statements he made, he evidently felt he was teaching something new. And who was the first to cope it from Edwards in America? Its difficult to believe that the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture was not preached also from the various pulpits where Edwards ministered.

One doesn't usually write a book to tell how its influential Baptist leader devised things in his own mind. Unfortunately it is at the church level who is last to find out.

parousia70

23rd April 2002, 11:32 PM

23rd April 2002, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by BigEd
[B]I have a question for any preterist . jerusalem was sacked in 70 ad.
the book of revelation has been dated around 90 ad. so is the book of revelation still unfufilled?

DATING THE BOOK OF REVELATION: AD 66-68 (http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10288&pagenumber=2)
--click link

24th April 2002, 12:02 AM

Catchup

24th April 2002, 01:05 AM

We went around and around with this on the "End of Times" forum. I do not want to do this all over again. :sigh:

The full preterist are trying so hard to find a place to root. You need to understand, that many people are preterist...that just means that some prophecies were completed. There is no danger there.

But the Full Preterist (which these people are) is a division!

Or maybe you have not sensed, that they are teaching you about a different Jesus? They want you to put aside everything that you have come to know... and believe instead their false teaching. The Jesus that they know, is not the God, that will one day come in full glory! The Bible warns you not to be fooled. When Christ returns everyone will know! All eyes will see him!! :clap:

But these Full Preterist will tell you that they know better. All eyes did not see him. That this why they had to come... to tell you that their Jesus will not be back. So if you buy into their Jesus, then you also have to believe that this is the New World, and that Satan is gone. I bet you never would have guessed all of that for yourself??! :eek:

They will tell you that all the churches, and you, yourself are wrong. They alone know the truth. But their "truth" was born of fear of the unknown. They want so desperately to hold on to this world. But you only have to read your Bible, to know that we are to let go of this world... and put our Faith and hope in Christ. :bow:

This is not the time to let down your guard against Satan!

Do not allow them to deceive you!

The Full preterist can talk a good story...But in the End...Christ will come anyway. Make sure you are in the wedding party when he comes for his bride. Stay firm in your beliefs!

:) LOVE

davo

24th April 2002, 02:28 AM

Boy Cachtup do you have a problem with truth [or the twisting of it] -not only that, the motives of your heart extremely divisive :mad: You may need to check your attitudes -"they're on the nose"! :(

davo

Catchup

24th April 2002, 07:08 AM

Boy Cachtup do you have a problem with truth [or the twisting of it

That is true! I do have a big problem with the twisting of the truth...I will not allow it to be preached unobstructed.

:) LOVE

24th April 2002, 08:03 AM

Dear Catchup:

Please respect preterist threads and don't "invade" them and we won't invade your threads.

If you're going to post on preterist threads now after all your railing at the other section then you better be prepared to defend your position using the Holy Scriptures. This "I'm-right-and-their-wrong" stuff isn't going to cut it.

The preterist view of bible prophecy is a firmly biblical view. Christ and the apostles all taught a second coming in their lifetimes and preterism is the teaching on bible prophecy that takes Jesus at His word on it. We simply believe what Jesus and the apostles clearly taught on the matter. Jesus, speaking to his first century audience, said:

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say UNTO YOU (his first century hearers), THIS generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled!

Luke 21:20, 22
And when YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh....For these be the days of vengeance, THAT ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN BE FULFILLED.

We will not tolerate attacks that have no basis in what the scriptures teach. People are looking for what the bible teaches, not what man teaches. Preterism is what the bible teaches concerning the timing of the last days:

Acts 2:15-17
"For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but THIS IS THAT which was spoken of through the prophet Joel: AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;

Peter knew exactly when the last days were. So do preterists.

Christ's blessings!

24th April 2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Catchup

But the Full Preterist (which these people are) is a division!

This is not the time to let down your guard against Satan!

Do not allow them to deceive you!

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harrass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.

Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling"

2) You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of the atmosphere of this forum or another group...This will also include posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. Such behaviour is grounds for immediate suspension

Please respect the rules of this board.

TScott

24th April 2002, 08:47 AM

Catchup says:

The Jesus that they know, is not the God, that will one day come in full glory!

I'm not a Preterist or a full Preterist, but do not understand what Catchup is waiting for. I thought Jesus was always with you.

davo

24th April 2002, 08:49 AM

Or put another way: Ketchup, how about throw your latest "end-times" novel under your arm, wonder off and go chase your "latest" antichrist -you'd be doing us all a favour. :sleep:

Acts6:5

24th April 2002, 09:02 AM

Hi Catchup,

The full preterist are trying so hard to find a place to root.

We moved because we honored the administrator's request to come here so that you can discuss current end-time ideas on the End Time forum. We have obeyed the rules, we have moved preterist topics to this forum. So if you wanted us to stop posting preterism on your forum, then why are you down here posting on our thread?

They will tell you that all the churches, and you, yourself are wrong.

Only when it comes to certain parts of eschatology, not salvation or the majority of Church views. Is this such a foreign concept? Would not a futurist who held a post-mill position believe that they are "biblically correct" in their end-times view, and believe everyone else is wrong in their end-times view?

On the other hand, you tell us that we "are wrong", and judge us as unbelievers. We don't do that with you. Isn't that a little hypocritical, since you say we tell everyone they are all wrong?

They alone know the truth.

In the same way that a Post-mill Christian thinks that all Post-Mills know the real truth concerning eschatology and everyone else is wrong in their view. No big surprise here.

But their "truth" was born of fear of the unknown. They want so desperately to hold on to this world.

No, Catchup, we have already explained this to you, but you choose to ignore what we actually believe in favor of sensationalistic fallacies. What we believe is true is based solely on the Word of God, and we would come to the same conclusions with or without Josephus. What we hold on to is the promise that the Gospel and the Church is destined to spread out over the entire earth, like an ever widening stream of water, for the healing of the nations. It's not worldly promises we hold onto, but godly promises concerning the healing of the world. That's what we believe. Please get the facts right, my friend, before you start "warning" people about us.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Catchup

24th April 2002, 09:23 AM

You want scripture…That is fine with me. I do not hide from the Truth! Surely it is OK for Peter to post on your thread?? :scratch:

Here is his letter on this very subject...

2Peter 3:1

Dear friends,
This is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

AMEN!!!!!

:) LOVE

davo

24th April 2002, 09:31 AM

This indeed is a miracle -I agree with everything you posted after "2Peter 3:1" we must be brothers in Christ. :clap:

davo

Acts6:5

24th April 2002, 09:33 AM

Catchup, if you want to discuss 2Peter that is fine. But do you understand the points of my last post...

1.) Preterists believe they know the "truth" in the same way that all Christians believe they know they truth.

2.) Preterists do not claim exclusivity because we are not a denomination or a seperate religion.

3) We do not teach that all Church's are wrong (especially because preterists are found in all kinds of Churches). We accept futurists as brothers and sisters in Christ.

4) Our beliefs are not based on fear or worldly desires, but on how we interpret the Word of God.

If you do not recognize these principles and understand where we are coming from then we have nothing more to discuss here, because it shows that your only desire is to distort what I believe. Hopefully that is not the case. I'm not demanding that you believe what I do, but I am demanding that you represent my beliefs correctly.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

parousia70

24th April 2002, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by TScott
Catchup says:

I'm not a Preterist or a full Preterist, but do not understand what Catchup is waiting for. I thought Jesus was always with you.

Good point TScott!

The problem Catchup, and other hyper-futurists have is that they claim Christ is present, in the manner of being "presently absent" or "absently present"

They claim He is with them today, while in the same breath claim He is far away, but coming "soon".

Of course when they say soon, they mean literally soon, but when they read when the Apostles said soon, it means thousands of years.
Given the choice on who to believe, I'm on the side of the apostles every time!

The hyper-futurist, oxymoronic theology will not stand the test of time that historic preterism has. Every single generation of date setters and futurists since the apostles, who believed they were the last days generation, have come and gone without any fanfare.
Todays generation of futurists will be no different, and the Preterist Church will continue it's victorious march through the ages, unimpeaded.

YBIC,
P70
PS, Catchup, I just knew you couldn't stay away! :clap:
Welcome to my thread!
feel free to post here anytime!
(providing your posts do not break forum rules)

Catchup

24th April 2002, 09:57 AM

parousia70: Thank You for the welcome!

Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

Craigybabe

24th April 2002, 10:10 AM

Hi and Good ,morning to you all. For me another working day has now finished so I'm all ears to listen to what you my friends here are saying.

Something that is continually sticking with me, the major flaw in what my preterists friends are preaching, is that surely the creation of the new earth and heaven would have been recorded by man if it had already happened. Wouldn't there be some sort of evidence that Jesus has already come again? How and why would the coming of all these events have been kept secret: the rapture;the harvest of souls; the 4 riders of the apocalypse; the anti-christ etc. Why is there still suffering if this is meant to be the "new Earth"? Why is there still evil in the world? I know this has all been answered in the 'End times' section. Its just that Something on such a large scale, something that would affect all of us wouldn't have been able to have been hidden.

God Bless

Craig

parousia70

24th April 2002, 07:10 PM

Hi Craigy,
Boy do you remind me of me when I first discovered preterism!

I asked those same questions!

As far as How the Church could have missed it, I for one am far more comfortable believing that the generations since the apostles did not understand the nature of the 2nd coming so as to "miss it", than I am in believing that the Apostles were wrong about it's timing.

While true that the Bulk of the Church through the ages has looked "forward" to the second coming, there have been notable, individual exceptions throughout Church History who saw it as past, and were never considered to be outside of Orthodoxy.

To avoid a long diatribe, I'll post what I feel are links relevant to your questions. Please check them out for I believe you may begin to find the answers you seek.

After you have done that, and you still have questions, I'll be glad to share my limited understanding personally with you.

YBIC,
P70

Links:
Heaven and Earth Passed Away (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/curtis-david_p_05.html)

Biblical meaning of Heaven and Earth (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/geiser-charles_p_04.html)

Why be preterist? (http://preteristarchive.com/Preterism/hartline-jim_p_01.html)

Hoonbaba

24th April 2002, 07:26 PM

Hi Craig,

I believe you're understanding Revelation based on your own presuppositions. It's sorta like as if someone were saying, "My dad kicked the bucket". If I were a foreigner who came to America and never understood such linguistic nuances like idioms, I'd take this literally thinking that someone's dad kicked the bucket. But most Americans would know the expression means, "My dad died". The same is true with prophetic langauge.

I think these comments may help you understand more about what I'm referring to =)

-Sun, Moon, Stars-- (Matthew 24:29)
Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.

By the way, we don't in the end of the physical cosmos. Here's why:

Gen. 8:21-22; Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba

24th April 2002, 07:30 PM

I don't remember if I mentioned this but preterist look at the end times as the end of Biblical Judaism. We believe that the age to come is the eternal new covenant age. So we look at Revelation depicting change in covenants, and we believe that the New Testament authors were living the transition period (aka the last day) between the Old and New Covenant.

You might notice that Heb 8:8-13 speaks of the old covenant which didn't pass away at the time of Hebrews having been written (Heb 8:13 tells us clearly). We believe that this directly correlates with Gal 4:21-31.

Also, I forget to mention that I believe the New Jerusalem depicted in Revelation 21:2 has a lot to do with Gal 4:26 and Heb 12:22. :)

God bless!

-Jason

Manifestation1*AD70

24th April 2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Craigybabe

Something that is continually sticking with me, the major flaw in what my preterists friends are preaching, is that surely the creation of the new earth and heaven would have been recorded by man if it had already happened. Wouldn't there be some sort of evidence that Jesus has already come again? How and why would the coming of all these events have been kept secret: the rapture;the harvest of souls; the 4 riders of the apocalypse; the anti-christ etc. Why is there still suffering if this is meant to be the "new Earth"? Why is there still evil in the world? I know this has all been answered in the 'End times' section. Its just that Something on such a large scale, something that would affect all of us wouldn't have been able to have been hidden.

God Bless

Craig [/B]

Hi Craig. The real point here is it is not that these things have been hidden from us. The real point here is we just did not understand what these things mant. For example two thousand years from now our history, culture, politics and language will have changed dramatically. Imagine someone then having to learn the ancient language of "modern English" to read one of our daily newspapers!

If they saw one of our political cartoons with a "donkey" and an "elephant" dressed in weird uniforms and acting strange, what would they think? How would they go about understanding the cartoon? Not only would they have to study the language, but also our culture, history, politics and economic situation as well.

The same principle applies to the Bible. If we have always been taught that the Bible was written "only to us" and never been taught to understand, applie, and carefully study, the language, history, culture and politics of the First Century we fail to grasp the essential understanding of the Bible.

Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with the apocalyptic, and figurative language of the Bible. And so many people like to say "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". Without carefully stuuding the language, history, culture and politics of the First Century. They seem to be saying there is no such thing as figurative or spiritual language. This is sad because a LOT of the Bible is symbolic language.

The problem is we are not used to dealing with such symbolical language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, new heaven and earth without thinking literally. To the Jew this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky's, etc.

To help you understand how the Jews communicated in terms of symbolical language last first study (Genesis 37:9). This is the way language is used in the Old Testament. It was adopted for like use in the New Testament.

This kind of language in relation to Israel began in the Bible in (Genesis 37:9). When Joseph told his brothers his dream He said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me." His father understood the meaning of that dream and asked. "What is the dream that thou haste dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (vs.10). To what was Joseph relating his dream - to the sun and the moon and the stars? No to his father and mother and brethren.

In studying apocalyptic language of the New Testament, we must have a good understanding of the Old Testament-the sourse for much of the minology used in the New Testament.

Joseph in a dream saw "the sun and the moon and the eleven stars" abeying him (Genesis 37:9), and there we see the same kind of typology used, as we know this referred to the brothers of Joseph finally having to yield to Joseph when he became a rular in Egypt.. The heavenly elements represent people in OLD Testament labguage.

In order to understand the Bible (we must read the Bible in this Jewish mindset). Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the (Medes in 539BC)., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her: "Bohold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And i will punish the world for their evil (Isaiah 13:9-11).

This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1 This language is symboical and represented in celestial language somthing that would take place upon a people. Again, note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt: "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heave, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. "All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-8) This applied to egypt, as mentioned in vss. 2, 12-16.

Most preterist have learned that in understanding many expressions in the New Testament eschatology, it is asolutely necessary to go back to the Old Testament and see how the same expressions were used there. In that way, one lets the Bible interpret itself. This same language was used in response to Israel, judgment of God (Matthew 24:29) This applied to Israel as mentioned in verse 34,35, 36, of Matthew 23.

The "heaven and earth" are simply the Jewish religious/political authorities and the land of Palestine and the people who lived there. They were the 'ungodly men' because they jejected and killed the Christ. And thus is was that heaven and earth that would removed forever.

The "Heavens and the Earth" Represent Israel.
In Isaiah 51:15-16 God said: "But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of host is his name. "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered there in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and ay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

God is not talking here about something that happened at creation's date 3,000 years before! He is talking about His people Israel. The heavens and the earth" represent Israel in this language. The Hebrew people understood this kind of language. It was their style. We need to see things in context, and the context of the Jewish writters.

In Haggai 2:6-7 (a Messianic prophecy) it said, "Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land: And I will shake all nations........This passage applies to the change of things which were brought about by the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new. The coming of Christ made possible this great change.

The change would involve the passing away of the old Juaistic system with all its ceremonies, rites, rituals, sacrifices, etc. As the writer of Hebrew said, as he "borrowed" words from Haggai 2:6: "The destruction of Jersualem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world.

When Moses said, "Listen O heavens, and I will speak; Hear O earth, the words of my mouth' (Deut 28), he did not mean the clouds and the rocks were to hear, but the leaders and the people were to hear! "Heavens" well portrays that which is "over us" and is the government or those in authority. When Moses and the priest spoke to the people they spoke in the authority of God.

"Earth" was used as a reference to the common people. A good example of this is where Jesus Himself said, "You are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13)

Even today we describe honest, hard working people as "salt of the earth." So the passing away of heaven and earth was the passing away of a culture its government and its people and their life stile (Matthew 5:13) When that culture or covenant that was known to the Jews as the heaven and earth passed away so did the Law.

Their "heaven and earth" is gone! We now live under the new "heaven and earth" or covenant wherein dwells righteousess. If you believe, the "heaven and earth" that Jesus was talking about was the literal, heaven and earth then you are sill under (ALL THE LAWS) of the old covenants. Because Jesus Himself said: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, (not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished (Matt.5:18)

We no the old heaven and earth disappeared because we are not under the old covenant of the law but a new covenant of grace. Aman. So the passing away of heaven and earth was the passing away of a culture its government and its people taken into slavery into other lands, forever scattered. :clap:

Psalm6

24th April 2002, 07:35 PM

But in Matthew 24:22 it says "And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." And what about all the signs in Revelation concerning all the men that are killed, and the 200 million man army? What about the multitude of marine, animal, and plant life that is almost if not fully wiped out? What about the water turning to blood? I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, cause we're brothers, as you've said. I'm just curious. God bless you all

davo

24th April 2002, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Craigybabe
Wouldn't there be some sort of evidence that Jesus has already come again? How and why would the coming of all these events have been kept secret:
God Bless

Craig

G'day Craig :wave:

Good questions you're asking. There is more to our existance than the "literal" or "temporal". The evidence for what you ask is not that different than "what's the evidence for you being 'born again'" -it might well be literal, but is it temporal? This is what the bible says about the New Creation of Rev 22:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 1Cor 5:17

Sometimes when we look for "certain" evidence, we 'miss the woods for the trees.'

Blessings mate. :)

davo

Psalm6

24th April 2002, 07:42 PM

And one other thing, about the saints in white robes under the altar of God...if these prophecies were fulfilled, that's like saying there will be no more martyrs. And of the two witnesses? It says everyone in the world will see the dead bodies in the street, and that was not possible until at least the 1900's. What about the plagues where men on earth were scorched with great heat?

Manifestation1*AD70

24th April 2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi Craig,

I believe you're understanding Revelation based on your own presuppositions. It's sorta like as if someone were saying, "My dad kicked the bucket". If I were a foreigner who came to America and never understood such linguistic nuances like idioms, I'd take this literally thinking that someone's dad kicked the bucket. But most Americans would know the expression means, "My dad died". The same is true with prophetic langauge.

I think these comments may help you understand more about what I'm referring to =)

-Sun, Moon, Stars-- (Matthew 24:29)
Compare to Jehovah's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), or Jehovah's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Or Jehovah's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), or His coming to Egypt in 572BC (Eze 32:7-11) . The sun, moon, and stars are not literal, but speak of the downfall of rulers and authorities. Isaiah 13:10-17 uses this exact language to speak of the conflict of the Medes and the Babylonians. Rev 12:1-4 and in Rev 8:10-9:2 use the casting down of stars to speak of rulers. Isaiah 14:12 calls Nebuchadnezzar the Morning Star cast down to earth. In Rev 1:20, the stars are rulers/messengers of the Churches. The "shaking of the heavens and earth" was used by Haggai in 2:7 and 2:21-23 to speak of political overturnings when the great Persian empire was all aflame with rebellion and conflict and the Jews were expecting this to work in their favor as they were being restored to Palestine and rebuilding the Temple.

Such "de-creation of heaven and earth" language is used in Psalm 18:5-16 to describe the downfall of Saul's Kingdom. In Isaiah 13:6-19 we see the destruction of heavens and earth pertain to when the Medes broke up the Babylonian empire. Nahum applies this earth-shattering metaphor to Yahweh's judgment of Ninevah (Nahum 1:1-5). Isaiah applies this language to Edom of 703BC (Isa 34:3-8). Ezekiel applies this language to Babylon's victory over Egypt (572BC) in Ezekiel 32:7-11.

By the way, we don't in the end of the physical cosmos. Here's why:

Gen. 8:21-22; Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 145:13; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Isa. 9:7; Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21

God bless!

-Jason

Man O man brother Jason is God working or not. We preterist seem to have one mind and one body in our thinking. Glory be to God. :clap:

Manifestation1*AD70

24th April 2002, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
And one other thing, about the saints in white robes under the altar of God...if these prophecies were fulfilled, that's like saying there will be no more martyrs. And of the two witnesses? It says everyone in the world will see the dead bodies in the street, and that was not possible until at least the 1900's. What about the plagues where men on earth were scorched with great heat?

Hi Psalm6. It really does not matter what "you say our what we say" What matter is what the Bible says. Therefore can you please show us from the Bible were it says "everyone in the world will see the dead bodies in the street"? What matters is what God has to says.

Manifestation1*AD70

24th April 2002, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
What about the multitude of marine, animal, and plant life that is almost if not fully wiped out? What about the water turning to blood? I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, cause we're brothers, as you've said. I'm just curious. God bless you all

Hi again Psalm6. No one here thinks you are trying to discredit our beliefs. Asking questions is how we all learn and we did not come to the preterist view without asking many questions believe me brother when I say that to you.

The water turning to blood is to be understood in the same nature as the moon turning into blood in the Old Testament. It is therefore not to be taken literaly. Because the moon never turning into blood in the Old Testament.

And as far as the multitude of all marine, animal plant life being wiped out. I believe we should let God also answer that question. Genesis 8:21 (NKJV) And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

What decree did God make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away.? Genesis 8:21! God said that he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) These verses simply saying that God keeps his promises.

Psalm6

24th April 2002, 10:58 PM

It's in Rev. 11:1-15(key verses being 7-10.) Also, what about 9: 13-21. And then there's the mark of the beast as well. Then there's chapter 16. And my key chapter is 21. It describes Jerusalem in great detail.

Catchup

25th April 2002, 07:22 AM

I have lost interest in this debate. Their was a time when it consumed me. I was upset to the point of anger, because of “Christians” speaking
un-truths. At first my attack, although rightful,was hitting below the belt. Trading insults was a part of my strategy. Until at one point in this debate…I prayed for help from the Spirit.

Please read my posts on this thread…and pray for guidance. :angel:

But this morning I awoke with my thoughts trained at Israel. I am going to begin my research and understanding of this region. There are prophets… that are yet to come. I do not know if this will be before or after the rapture.

Stay firm in your beliefs. Do not let anyone steal away your place in the NEW WORLD.

Revelations 10:6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Revelations 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

Revelation7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

parousia70

25th April 2002, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Psalm6
It's in Rev. 11:1-15(key verses being 7-10.) Also, what about 9: 13-21. And then there's the mark of the beast as well. Then there's chapter 16. And my key chapter is 21. It describes Jerusalem in great detail.

Psalms6,

Take a look at Isaiah 65:17-23.
Isaiah describes what life will be like in the new heavens and earth in great detail.

After studying that passage, come back here and post your understanding of how there will be birth, ageing, death and sinners all present in the new Heavens and earth as Isaiah explicitly states. How could all these be true if the New H&E represnet, in your view, a fleshly utopia characterized by total behavioral errorlessness in an eternal biological state?

If we are not to be given in marraige in the new world, how is there still to be procreation going on? Sex outside of wedlock in Gods "perfect" state????

As for Revelation 21 & 22's description of the New Jerusalem, Heres a "detail" you might have overlooked:

Rev 22:2 "In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Ask yourself this. "If the New heaven and earth are brand new replacements for the old ones that were completely destroyed, and are error free, perfect in every way, Why do the nations "need perpetual healing"?
This tree poses a huge stumbling block for the "replacement earth" theology.

I would be interested in how you get around these difficulties in your view.

Thanks in Christ,
P70

parousia70

25th April 2002, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Catchup
I have lost interest in this debate.

Ya'll come back now anytime, ya hear?
:wave:

25th April 2002, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Catchup

But this morning I awoke with my thoughts trained at Israel. I am going to begin my research and understanding of this region.

The Church is Israel (Gal 6:15-16). You can do no better than to train your thoughts on Christ's Church (Israel).

If you had to pick any region of the planet to get into politics you might consider China where Christ's Church is growing underground quickly but faces fierce opposition. God blesses those who bless the Church (Israel)!

Catchup

25th April 2002, 11:55 AM

GW: Thanks for the suggestions. But I do not let people guide my life as you are prone to do.

Parosia70: Do not for a moment think that I do not realize the danger you pose. But in the realm of all things...You are small potatoes.

Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

Hoonbaba

25th April 2002, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by GW

The Church is Israel (Gal 6:15-16). You can do no better than to train your thoughts on Christ's Church (Israel).

If you had to pick any region of the planet to get into politics you might consider China where Christ's Church is growing underground quickly but faces fierce opposition. God blesses those who bless the Church (Israel)!

Hi GW,

Actually some areas of China are really opening up. In some provinces the government doesn't care if people worship outside on a mountain or something. So that's good to hear =) But at the same time I wonder if China's Christians will fall into complacency with more freedom, assuming that China becomes completely free for the gospel to go around the nation

-Jason

Manifestation1*AD70

25th April 2002, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
It's in Rev. 11:1-15(key verses being 7-10.) Also, what about 9: 13-21. And then there's the mark of the beast as well

And he cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Revelation 13:16 Many have wondered over the years about Rev. 13:-17; 14:9-11. etc. regarding what is usually called "the mark of the beast."

This two is Jewish apocalyptic thought which originated from the Old Testament. Sad to say Christians today are also unfamiliar with this stile of Jewish language also.

Therefore, when they approach the book of Revelation, they do so with a literalistic, 20th century "interpretations" instead of a first century Jewish understanding.

The first thing one must understand about Revelation is that it is a book composed almost entirely of symbols-symbols that a first century Jew would have found immediately recognizable. These symbols were used before in such books as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah.

When a "mark" is spoken of, it should bring to mind a previous reference to a mark, found in another place in the Old Testament. The "mark" received upon the right hand or the forehead, is a Jewish topological picture (as is virtually all of Revelation), not to a "physical" mark on a persons body, but to the fact that in Jewish thought form (which is where John was coming from).

But how did one, receive "the mark" and what did it mean in Jewish thought? It means that those who "took the mark" willingly, on their "right hand" (the Jewish picture of action and power), did whatever they did under the control of Rome, and they acted in accordance with that ungodly religious system (Pantheism).

The "mark" on the foreheads, was referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the "minds and thoughts" of those who willingly followed this mind set. A perfect picture of this action in see in John. Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold you King!" But they cried out, Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priest answered, "We have no king (but Caesar!") John 19:14-15.

This is the historical setting of how the un-believing Jews received the "mark of the beast."

Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. Then the chief priest and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, What shall we do' For this Man works many signs. "If we let Him alone like this everyone will believe in Him, (And the Romans will come and take away both place and nation).

This is the historical setting of how the un-believing received the "mark in their foreheads."

Those who "took the mark" in the foreheads, were referring to the fact that Rome and their ideologies/ religions etc, were controlling the minds and thoughts of those who willingly followed this mind set. All the Jews understood this topological picture.

Since John was a Jew he used numerous Jewish allusions out of the Old Testament in his book of Revelation. John writes in Greek, he thinks in Hebrew, and the thought has naturally affected the vehicle of express." The same language of John's Revelation when a "mark" is spoken of, should bring to mind a previous reference to a "mark" found in Ezekiel 9:3-6.

In that context, Jerusalem was also about to be besieged and destroyed (by the Babylonians). The Lord commanded an angel to place "a mark on the foreheads" of those that lamented the wickedness of the city. This angel is described as having "a writer's inkhorn at his side" (9:3), with which he was to mark the righteous. It is clear from the context that this was not to be taken literally, as if an angel needed to carry a pen around with him and an inkhorn in which to dip it.

This was a figurative (symbolic) way of showing that there was a specific class of people within the doomed city that were being set apart for preservation (9:6). In Revelation, a similar "mark" is placed on those whom God wishes to preserve (7:3, 14:1). A "mark" is also received by those loyal to the beast, one which sets them apart for destruction (14:9-11). The mark is an emblem of ownership (John 19:14-15.)

We must allow Scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. Whether or not it or its fulfillment conforms to the unbiblical traditions we have been taught of what it should be like, is irrelevant! Most people today jump into the book of Revelation with the brazen assumption that it speaks of our times or a time yet future.

This ignores the book's clear statements regarding the time of its fulfillment. To the readers of the first century, not the 20th, it was written that these were "things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev.11), and that the time for its fulfillment was "at hand" (Rev.1:3). And just in case they missed the point, it was reiterated at the end of the book that these were "things which must shortly be done" (Rev. 22:60.

parousia70

25th April 2002, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Catchup

Parosia70: Do not for a moment think that I do not realize the danger you pose. But in the realm of all things...You are small potatoes.

Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

Good to see you back so soon! you must be rested and ready!

You are right, I am small potatoes, with faith like a mustard seed. ;)

You are also correct that I pose an incredible danger.
I pose danger to all who would come against Gods Church, for in Christ Jesus I am granted the power to subdue kingdoms with the everlasting gospel!

Thanks for such High praise!
YBIC,
P70

Manifestation1*AD70

25th April 2002, 07:52 PM

Keep me as the apple of Your eye; Hide me under the shadow of Your wings, (Psalms 17:8)

How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.(Psalms 36:7

To many people who read the Bible like to say. "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". So does that kind of "literal thinking" mean the above two verse are saying that God is a chicken?

When literalism rules the day we are the losers in our understanding of biblical truth. :eek:

Psalm6

25th April 2002, 09:11 PM

Bear with me, because in responding to Isaiah, and Rev 22: 2, I must include a lot of Scripture. I'm using the KJV by the way. First, we'll start with Isaiah. In 65:17, it speaks of the new heaven and earth. When it speaks of sinners being accursed, they will be in hell, not in the new heaven and earth, and therefore, would be pretty accursed. Because it also says there will be no more pain or tears, and if there was sin in the new heaven and earth, there would be sin! The sinners are burning in hell. I don't see in Isaiah where children will be had, but during the thousand year reign, they will be born. The people alive at the rapture will instantly recieve glorified bodies, so those can't have children. We will rule with Christ. Those on the earth,(Worshippers left after the seals, trumpets, woes) during the thousand year reign won't sin because there is no devil in the earth, he's bound. It says in the four Gospels that there will be no marriage AFTER the resurrection has occured. There will be sin after the devil is loosed. When the devil is loosed, sin enters the world, and causes another rebellion against God. And that takes me into Rev. In 21:1, it says there will be no more sea, so that can't be now. But that's not my point. In chapter 20 it talks about satan being bound for a thousand years "that he should deceive the nations no more, TILL the thousand years be fulfilled: and AFTER that he must be loosed a little season." So, towards the end of the thousand year reign, satan will be released, and once again, man will be tempted. Verse 5 in chapter 20 also supports my point. Verse 6 tells that the saved before the rapture will rule with Christ during the thousand years. Verse 8-9 is where satan is loosed, sin enters the world, and the sinners rebel against God. But he just vanquishes them with fire, and the devil is torn from the earth again, thrown into the lake of fire, and has his power stripped. Then is when all the sinners(remember, there won't be any in the new HE according to Isaiah) are cast into the lake of fire, due to the great white throne judgement, which is for all the people who didn't accept Jesus. When all the sinners are gone, and the devil as well...the new H.E. are created, because according to Isaiah and Revelations 21:4 there will be no tears. No sin, no sinners = no pain, no tears = new heaven, new earth. After this, the new heaven and earth are created. In which there is NO sin! There IS sin now, so we can't be living in the new heaven and earth. The thousand year reign will occur before the new heaven and earth. Another key thing is that it says that during the reign, the saved before the rapture, and those that died during the tribulation that were saved, will be preists to the people on the old earth, so that they will keep strong in the will of God. We won't need preists when EVERYONE dwells with God. As for the Tree of life, it says that it will be when there is no night, and no more curses (verse 5 and 3 respectively.) So I believe it is there for us all to heal us all for all the pain and hurt we suffered previously. God wouldn't let Adam have it, because he sinned at the Tree of Good and Evil. God says in Genesis 3: 22 that if Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have lived forever. Maybe this tree was a metaphor for Jesus, or maybe God allows us to eat of it when we are saved. Most likely, it is in the new heaven and earth to symbolize that we will live forever. It is one of our rewards for following God. I say to you, you have defend your beliefs well, and I respect you for that. Also, you're not declaring loudly that your beliefs are right...I don't mean to either. But I have great respect for all the preterists posting so far, and thank you for being civil. We're all brothers and sisters, and I pray that God blesses us all.

Psalm6

25th April 2002, 09:12 PM

And another thing, some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, others aren't. But no one knows FOR SURE

Psalm6

25th April 2002, 09:15 PM

And another thing, some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, others aren't. But no one knows FOR SURE which are which, so there will always be differences in opinion.

Manifestation1*AD70

25th April 2002, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
Bear with me, because in responding to Isaiah, and Rev 22: 2, Most likely, it is in the new heaven and earth to symbolize that we will live forever. It is one of our rewards for following God. I say to you, you have defend your beliefs well, and I respect you for that. Also, you're not declaring loudly that your beliefs are right...I don't mean to either. But I have great respect for all the preterists posting so far, and thank you for being civil. We're all brothers and sisters, and I pray that God blesses us all.

Hi Psalm I see you are trying to understand the preterist view so for now "I believe it is best to sit this one out" and let one person at this time respond to all your questions. Some times when we are trying to grasp what a person is saying we need time, to think on one thing at a time. I would just like to say brother that I respect you also for being civil.

May God bless you as you seek to see His face.

Manifestation1*AD70

25th April 2002, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Psalm6
And another thing, some parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally, others aren't. But no one knows FOR SURE which are which, so there will always be differences in opinion.

Psalm6 I would just like to say this one last thing. Your above statement is un-true. The Jews in the days of Jesus know for sure the differences between the literal verse and the spiritial verse. Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the (Medes in 539BC)., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her: "Bohold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And i will punish the world for their evil (Isaiah 13:9-11).

This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. To the Jew this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky's, etc.

The problem is we are not used to dealing with such symbolical language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, etc. without thinking literally. To the Jew this was not new language. If we are REALLY going to understand their language we will have to seriously and carefully study the language, history, and Jewish culture of the first century.

unworthyone

25th April 2002, 11:12 PM

Jesus tells me he hasn't come a second time yet. I think I'll listen to Him.

Didaskomenos

25th April 2002, 11:26 PM

Jesus tells me he hasn't come a second time yet. I think I'll listen to Him.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis? How pretentious for an "unworthy one". Do you not believe the Bible is reliable testimony? These preterists do, and are taking their doctrines from that source. Now, if you think it's a faulty interpretation of the Bible, then argue from the Bible.

Private conversations are hearsay and thus inadmissible. It's wrong to try to win over people with that. Either prove the other guys wrong, or let God deal with people - if Jesus did tell you that, it's his prerogative to let others in on that information, and not yours, unless you want inclusion to the canon.

unworthyone

25th April 2002, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
unless you want inclusion to the canon.

Sure, sounds cool.
If Jesus tells me I will say it. ;)

The bible is a guide, not Jesus, which I can learn from but doesn't compare to what I learn personally from Jesus himself. I mean we all have a direct relationship with Him right?

Ask Jesus for the answers, not the bible.

This world we live in is complete and utterly satanistic!!!
I refuse to believe Jesus already came and left this Earth like this!

25th April 2002, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by unworthyone
Jesus tells me he hasn't come a second time yet. I think I'll listen to Him.

Jesus tells you he HAS come a second time. For he promised his own apostles to their faces, saying:

"So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.
--Matt 24:33-34

And so we know Jesus is a promise keeper. When he promised his apostles to their faces that He would return to them in their generation and that they would see it we know 100% that He meant it. Our Lord is not a false prophet. When he makes a promise he keeps it. He promised them and he could NOT have failed to keep his promise or else Jesus Christ is not divine and can err.

unworthyone

26th April 2002, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by GW
Jesus tells you he HAS come a second time. For he promised his own apostles to their faces, saying:
And so we know Jesus is a promise keeper

Yes he did. When he raised from the dead and waived goodbye. The physical second coming of Jesus hasn't come. God will abolish sin. Obviously, he hasn't.

There are four generations in the bible in this manner:

1)Pre-Noah
2)Pre-Jesus
3)Jesus's Time????
4)Post Jesus (Our current)

The term "generation" is used so many times that it could easily be taken out of context. Rightly so to prove your point.

Psalm6

26th April 2002, 12:38 AM

I meant that certain parts relative to us, we are unsure of.

Psalm6

26th April 2002, 12:41 AM

Unworthyone, I agree with you...after the second coming and the new heaven and earth, there will be no sin. That's what my other post was about.

Catchup

26th April 2002, 08:28 AM

Jesus tells me he hasn't come a second time yet. I think I'll listen to Him.

I understand what you are saying unworthyone. If you are a true Christian, the Spirit will guide you to all Truths. You will not be fooled by man and his endless words .

When Christ appears the nations will mourn and all will
KNOW that it is the Lord who has made his presence known!

:bow: All the People of this Earth will KNOW in the same instant when Christ returns! :bow:

Many will be fooled by man before this happens. We are people of beliefs and religions. We do this as an effort to get closer to God. But it will not take any Faith to know when Christ comes back.

Sinners, Agnostics, Atheist...Everyone will know!.

So go find yourself an Atheist today and ask him if God is here.

Do not listen to false teachings. Wait...be patient. Pray that your Faith is kept pure. You will not need anyone to inform you when Christ truly comes back to rule. You will KNOW!

Matthew 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

My prayers are for you and with you.
Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

26th April 2002, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by unworthyone
Yes he did. When he raised from the dead and waived goodbye. The physical second coming of Jesus hasn't come.

If the second coming has not come as you propose then Jesus Christ is a false prophet (along with all the apostles who also taught the second coming was to happen in their lifetimes). Jesus made a very specific promise to his apostles:

Matt 24:33-34
"So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.

These are same terms he had just used in the temple mere minutes earlier:

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

26th April 2002, 09:46 AM

Catchup said:
"All the People of this Earth will KNOW in the same instant when Christ returns!"

GW replies:
That's the same exact excuse Jews give for rejecting Christ's advent. Are you jewish? Christ's coming in judgment would only be perceived by those that were looking for it:

Heb 9:28
and UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Christ's coming was to be a typical Day of the Lord. The previous Day of the Lord judgments were ones where nations and kings and such were destroyed -- but only the righteous jews ever understood. So also with Christ's "Day of the Lord."

unworthyone

26th April 2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by GW
Matt 24:33-34
"So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.

These are same terms he had just used in the temple mere minutes earlier:

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Dude!! I know the verses but you are making your own definition of GENERATION by just reading the bible.

Unless you know unequivocally what Jesus meant then you shouldn't make a definition.

Guessing is cool, but knowing is not something you can.

Catchup

26th April 2002, 10:16 AM

GW replies:
That's the same exact excuse Jews give for rejecting Christ's advent. Are you jewish? Christ's coming in judgment would only be perceived by those that were looking for it:

GW: You really need to spend less time on the boards and more time reading your Bible.

You do not seem to have a clue on God's plan.

The first time Jesus walked on Earth it was to teach and to offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He came as a Man/God.
He planted the first seeds of gospel that have spread around the World. He died on the cross so that our sins could be washed. He went up to God but sent to us the comforter...the Holy Spirit. That is what you are feeling. That is what is at work through all of us to bring good to this fallen world. You must understand that Jesus could not have completed this work if he had came in full glory. He would not have been crucified. He would not have been able to die for our sins.
There would be no Salvation!
Christianity would have been over before it began. The world would have came to an end long ago....

I praise God, and thank him each and everyday, for the LOVE that he has shown to us all. He has allowed both the way and the time for us to have a chance for eternal life with him. But we as a people, have slept in far too long. The night is near and a New Dawn is in the horizon.

This time Jesus will not return as an infant. He will not be the son of man. He will instead appear as the GOD that he is! There will no longer be any room for doubt! All eyes will Know when Jesus returns.

He will come in FULLL GLORY!

GW...It is time you stopped debating with me. I am not the author of God's plan. Take all your troubles and worries to him in prayer. Believe in God ...Trust and LOVE...that is all that is needed.

Your Friend in Christ
:) LOVE

26th April 2002, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Catchup
You do not seem to have a clue on God's plan.

I would, of course, argue that it is you that is lacking a clear understanding of the plan of redemption and the final state.

Your story is wrong on so many counts that I don't know where to begin.

The O.T. prophets imagined his suffering and display of power via a "day of the Lord" judgment would all happen in one generation (Isa 61:1-2). We know that Isaiah 61:2 came to pass at the time the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (compare Isa 61:2 to Luke 21:20-22).

The O.T. prophets never so much as even imagined TWO advents of Messiah. And certainly not two advents separated by thousands of years. The N.T. apostles didn't either. Peter holds both the suffering and the glorious return of Messiah within their own single generation (1 Peter 1:10-20). They had no concept of TWO advents separated by thousands of years. This same SINGLE GENERATION of Messiah's ascension and return is depicted in Luke 19:11-17 (when they expected the victory to happen right then while Jesus was heading to Jerusalem).

Next, don't you ever watch or read Jack Van Impe or Grant Jeffrey? They both teach correctly that this world will NEVER end. I heard him say it again last night on one of his shows. He cites Ecc 1:4 and many other verses like it that say the world has no end by God's design.

Finally, Jesus indeed will not return again as a humble infant subject to suffering. At Christ's ascension he was returned back to the glory he originally had with Yahweh (John 17:5) and thus "returned in the glory of Yahweh (Matt 16:27). Yahweh's many O.T. comings and judgments were exactly as Christ's was at AD 66-70. Only Christ's coming in judgment was GREATER than Yahweh had ever before performed in human history!

Jesus promised his return in judgment in their generation and he could not err:

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:33-34
So, you too (the apostles), when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Christ's riches to you,
GW

unworthyone

26th April 2002, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by GW
Jesus promised his return in judgment in their generation and he could not err:

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:33-34
So, you too (the apostles), when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

LOL again with the "contextual observation". Do you not agree that generation has more then 1 meaning?

26th April 2002, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by unworthyone
LOL again with the "contextual observation". Do you not agree that generation has more then 1 meaning?

Every time the word "generation" (strong's # 1074 - genea) is ever uttered in the New Testament is means the sum total of contemporaries living at the same time.

Now, "THIS generation" is an emphatic designation of Christ's own contemporaries living at His time. The phrase "THIS generation" is listed in the N.T. nearly 20 times. In not ONE single case does it ever refer to any generation but Christ's own. As Hank Hanegraaff agrees:

Hank Hanegraaff -- ON MATT 24:34

The futurist will say when they read this text, "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened," they'll say this generation doesn't mean THIS generation, this generation means THAT generation that's alive when Jesus Christ comes again. Which is highly problematic ... Jewish skeptics and people who would want to call Jesus into question as being a true prophet will use this very text and say THIS generation cannot mean anything other than the generation to whom Jesus Christ was speaking. So people that want to make 'this generation' anything other than the generation to whom Jesus Christ was speaking have the onus on them to be able to demonstrate that the grammatical construction here [in Matt 24:34], although the same as elsewhere in Matthew, means something different. ... Jesus, if he were speaking of future generations, would have said THAT, not this, generation, becasuse he would be using the same kind of construction that he used earlier in the text I just cited [citation of Matt 12:41 given by Hanegraaff].
--Bible Answerman Program -- 12/2001

And so it goes that Christ emphatically promised his apostles that he would return in their generation. The verse immediately before it also shows who is meant. Christ, speaking to his living, breathing apostles, promised them:

"So, you too [the apostles], when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [the apostles], this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

And so we see that the promise is to the apostles that THEY would see all those signs an thereby know he was at the door in their generation (which they later precisely proclaimed -- see James 5:8-9, 1 peter 4:7; 1 Jn 2:18-19, Rev 1:1,3; Rev 3:1-3; Rev 3:20).

If Christ did not return when he promised and when they ALL unanimously believed and taught then Christianity crumbles under the weight of its founding false prophets. Praise God that they are not false prophets because Jesus DID return exactly WHEN and how he and the apostles all taught and prophesied.

Blessings to you,
GW