A question for y'all

[Suffolk Sean]

Do Messianics in general believe in Dispensationalism?

I would appreciate your views on such things and why you believe the way you do. Many thanks....

[visionary]

Dispensationalism is a term that describes a system of theology, or a set of guidelines for interpreting scripture that lead to some specific conclusions about God, Israel, the Church, and the Endtimes. That's it in a nutshell. The nut itself is a bit more complex, but not too complex.

We believe that all "Scripture is given by inspiration of God," by which we understand the whole Bible is inspired in the sense that holy men of God "were moved by the Holy Spirit" to write the very words of Scripture. We believe that this divine inspiration extends to all parts of the writings--historical, poetical, doctrinal, and prophetical--as appeared in the original manuscripts.

These are the four places in scripture where it talks about a dispensation.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

If you look at scripture...in genesis it starts out with the first two thousand years with it saying as far as geneology "the father of" after Abraham it says "the son of" which lasts til Christ comes. We know since Pentecost, it has been by the work of the Holy Spirit which has lasted these last two thousand years. In a nutshell, all three of the God head have had a equal amount of time and effort into our salvation.

[Sephania]

Shalom Sean!

Could you please explain what Dispensationalism is?

Thanks!

[Suffolk Sean]

Shalom Sean!

Could you please explain what Dispensationalism is?

Thanks!
I think the post above yours describes it pretty well.

Eschatologically it tends to deal with pretrib views, but I'm more intrested in seeing how they view the past as opposed to the future.

Specifically I am intrested in views of Dispensation of the Law vs. Dispensation of Grace.

[Jasmine-FL]

Specifically I am intrested in views of Dispensation of the Law vs. Dispensation of Grace.
theres no such thing, grace and law have both been around since the garden of eden :amen:

[Sephania]

Exactly! Why didn't G-d just kill Adam and Eve when they sinned, instead of covering them?

[Shimshon]

theres no such thing, grace and law have both been around since the garden of eden :amen:Agreed. This doctrine has a huge flaw. It implies that those before Yeshua were saved by obedience to the law, not grace. Or worse yet, they were not saved at all. Or as I believe dispensationalism reasons, they were held in "paradise" till the reserection?

My, I think our focus on Yeshua's death as a CHANGING point in all time is as false as the way Jews feel the giving of Torah at Mt. Sinai was. Both seem to use these caviots as 'gates' one MUST enter in through in order to be saved. Yet, they were both pieces in the grand plan. Not ment to "segregate" anybody out, but actually just the opposite I feel. They were part of the process to "include" everybody. Not JUST Jews. Not JUST Goyim. But ONE NEW MAN!. From all ages.

b,shalom
Shimshon

[Sephania]

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of G-d which is given me to you-ward:


Wasn't the grace that HaShem gave to Sh'aul that instead of condeming him for blaspheming against him and killing those who followed him, instead he gave him grace to now be his servant?

[Shimshon]

These are the four places in scripture where it talks about a dispensation.

Visionary, these examples might be places in scripture that "Use" the word dispensation. But they in now way validate the doctrine of 'dispensation' that the OP was refering to.

b,shalom
Shimshon

[Sephania]

I wanted a definition so I went to the concordance and looked it up, it is found 7 times in the Chadash.

Here in Luke it is translated as stewardship


Lu 16:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:2&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Lu 16:3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:3&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. Lu 16:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:4&version=kjv&showtools=yes) I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
The other four are as VIs posted.

The word is Greek - Greek Word: Oijkonomiva
Transliterated Word: oikonomia
Definition
the management of a household or of household affairs
specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
administration, dispensation

So with this definition I mind could you now explain Sean what you mean?

[visionary]

Visionary, these examples might be places in scripture that "Use" the word dispensation. But they in now way validate the doctrine of 'dispensation' that the OP was refering to.

b,shalom
Shimshon
True, but it was a starting place for the discussion at hand. They do not validate the doctrine of dispensation, but they are the starting point where it became a doctrine. If Paul had not used the terms in his writtings, dispensation would not be a controversial word in meaning and understandings as it is today.

[visionary]

I wanted a definition so I went to the concordance and looked it up, it is found 7 times in the Chadash.

Here in Luke it is translated as stewardship


Lu 16:2 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:2&version=kjv&showtools=yes) And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Lu 16:3 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:3&version=kjv&showtools=yes) Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. Lu 16:4 (http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=lu+16:4&version=kjv&showtools=yes) I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
The other four are as VIs posted.

The word is Greek - Greek Word: Oijkonomiva
Transliterated Word: oikonomia
Definition
the management of a household or of household affairs
specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
administration, dispensation

So with this definition I mind could you now explain Sean what you mean?
First two thousand years....The Father dealt with man from the Garden of Eden til Abraham
Second two thousand years..The Son lead them out of Egypt to Mount Sinai, through the wilderness to the Promised land, out of Babylon to His First Coming.
Third two thousand years...The Holy Spirit has moved upon the face of the earth to spread the gospel of salvation to every nation kingdom and tongue. There has been wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, and when we reach the point where everyone has heard the good news, the end will come.

[Sephania]

So do Christians mean this in the Stewardship manner or the way you explained? I think I need to go more Google surfing. :)

[Sephania]

Ok, I just read some stuff at a site that defined it, Sean are you speaking in terms of

Conscience
Law
Grace
?

Definition


A Dispensation - The system by which anything is administered. In Christian terms, looking back, it refers to a period in history whereby God dealt with man in a specific way. (Conscience, Law, Grace)
Dispensationalism - A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different ages. While 'Dispensations' are not ages, but stewardships, or administrations, we tend to see them now as ages since we look back on specific time periods when they were in practice.
Dispensationalism is distinguished by three key principles.
1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
2 - A consistent and regular use of a literal principle of interpretation
3 - The understanding of the purpose of God as His own glory rather than the salvation of mankind.
What about the Dispensations?

The key to Dispensationalism is not in the definition or recognition of a specific number of dispensations. This is a misunderstanding of the opponents of Dispensationalism. Almost all theologians will recognize that God worked differently through the Law than He did through Grace. That is not to say that salvation was attained in a different manner, but that the responsibilities given to man by God were different during the period of the giving of the Law up to the cross, just as they were different for Adam and Eve. The Jews were to show their true faith by doing what God had commanded, even though they couldn't keep the moral Law. That's what the sacrifices were for. When the apostle Paul said that as to the Law he was blameless, he didn't mean that he never sinned, but that he obeyed God by following the guidelines of the Law when he did sin, and animal sacrifices were offered for his sin. Salvation came not by keeping the law, but by seeing it's true purpose in exposing sin, and turning to God for salvation. The Jews weren't saved based on how well they kept the law, as that would be salvation by works.

Ok, I can go along with this, and I especially believe what I have highlighted.

Now to this:

While not everyone needs to agree on this breakdown, the point from the dispensationalists view is that God is working with man in a progressive way. At each stage man has failed to be obedient to the responsibilities set forth by God. (administration, dispensation) The method of salvation, justification by faith alone, never changes through the time periods. The responsibilities God gives to man does change. The Jews were to be obedient to the Law if they wished God's blessing of Land. If they were disobedient, they would be scattered. However, God promises to always bring them back to the land promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant. After the cross, believers no longer need the Law, which pointed to Christ as the one that would take the burden of sin. We are under a new Law, the Law of Grace. We have more revelation about God, and are no longer required to keep ceremonial laws given to the Jews.

I have a big problem with the last highlighted though.

We don't Need the LAW? Then how do we know what is sinful? How do we know how to show G-d we love him, and our fellow man, examples I mean, for if it weren't for the law, how would we know?

[Sephania]

Heres the site I got that from http://www.dispensationalism.com/

[visionary]

Ok, I just read some stuff at a site that defined it, Sean are you speaking in terms of

Conscience
Law
Grace
?

Definition


A Dispensation - The system by which anything is administered. In Christian terms, looking back, it refers to a period in history whereby God dealt with man in a specific way. (Conscience, Law, Grace)
Dispensationalism - A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different ages. While 'Dispensations' are not ages, but stewardships, or administrations, we tend to see them now as ages since we look back on specific time periods when they were in practice.
Dispensationalism is distinguished by three key principles.
1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
2 - A consistent and regular use of a literal principle of interpretation
3 - The understanding of the purpose of God as His own glory rather than the salvation of mankind.
What about the Dispensations?

The key to Dispensationalism is not in the definition or recognition of a specific number of dispensations. This is a misunderstanding of the opponents of Dispensationalism. Almost all theologians will recognize that God worked differently through the Law than He did through Grace. That is not to say that salvation was attained in a different manner, but that the responsibilities given to man by God were different during the period of the giving of the Law up to the cross, just as they were different for Adam and Eve. The Jews were to show their true faith by doing what God had commanded, even though they couldn't keep the moral Law. That's what the sacrifices were for. When the apostle Paul said that as to the Law he was blameless, he didn't mean that he never sinned, but that he obeyed God by following the guidelines of the Law when he did sin, and animal sacrifices were offered for his sin. Salvation came not by keeping the law, but by seeing it's true purpose in exposing sin, and turning to God for salvation. The Jews weren't saved based on how well they kept the law, as that would be salvation by works.

Ok, I can go along with this, and I especially believe what I have highlighted.

Now to this:

While not everyone needs to agree on this breakdown, the point from the dispensationalists view is that God is working with man in a progressive way. At each stage man has failed to be obedient to the responsibilities set forth by God. (administration, dispensation) The method of salvation, justification by faith alone, never changes through the time periods. The responsibilities God gives to man does change. The Jews were to be obedient to the Law if they wished God's blessing of Land. If they were disobedient, they would be scattered. However, God promises to always bring them back to the land promised to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant. After the cross, believers no longer need the Law, which pointed to Christ as the one that would take the burden of sin. We are under a new Law, the Law of Grace. We have more revelation about God, and are no longer required to keep ceremonial laws given to the Jews.

I have a big problem with the last highlighted though.

We don't Need the LAW? Then how do we know what is sinful? How do we know how to show G-d we love him, and our fellow man, examples I mean, for if it weren't for the law, how would we know?
Where we differ in understanding lies in the difference of the last dispensation. There are those that say this is the dispensation of no law except grace and I agree with you, Zayit, without the law, there is no need of grace.

No Law--> no penalties--> no curses--> therefore no sacrifice needed--> that means no grace needed either. Without the law there is nothing but lawlessness.

The foundation of any government, including Yeshua's is based upon the Laws of the Kingdom.

James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you. Think not that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

So the next question is how do we see the last dispensation....since we have pointed out what we understand and disagree with.

[Sephania]

Ah, that obscure verse from Hoshea, the L-rd but that in my mind a few days back. Yes, his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, or possesion of the wrong sort even. The knowledge is there, for everyone, especially in this day and age yet much seeks to obscure it and hid it and cover it or confuse it with other diversions.

It is true, if there is no law, the law is done away with, then what do we need Yeshua for? :doh:

[Henaynei]

in genreal MJs do not adhere to a doctrine of dispensations - That which was true in the beginning is true now - G-d has always exercised grace and mercy over judgement - there has been no "change in the WhiteHouse" as it were..... no change in administration..... no change in the laws..... the changes have been in the followers, not the leadership :)