Chanukkah and the Tribulation

[Sephania]

Has anyone here ever put these two together? It is an "extra-Biblical" holiday but there is much there to teach us. I was just this morning reading through Daniel in answer to a post and was reminded of how the first King, Nebuchadnezzar of the first world kingdom, set up his image in the plain of Dura and caused all great and small, to fall down on musical cue to worship it under pain of death in the "fiery furnace". Then Pray4Isrel started a thread on the feast of dediction and it got me to thinking that Antiochus Epiphanes who inherited this part of the kingdom from Alexander the great ( some beleive this to be the trunk and thighs of bronze) served along in this same vein of the "one to come".

Look what he did:

-He forced the Jews to worship the pagan idols and adopt the Greek culture.
-Whole families of Jews were executed for their observance of the Sabbath and circumcision.
-Tens of thousands of men, women, children and infants, who would worship no other gods, were martyred.
- He set up an idol of his god, Zeus, in the Temple and built an altar to Zeus
-On the altar, he sacrificed a pig
-The pig's blood was brought into the Holy of Holies
- In Modi'in in Judea, the people were made to assemble in the square by the syrian?Greek soldiers. They built an altar and ordered Mattathias ( priest) to sacrifice a pig and for the people to then eat it.
-Mattathias refused for himself and his people but the S/Greeks tried to bribe him with a huge sum of money. He refused. They could not make him do it.
-Antiochus did all this to gain power over the people and to keep them from worshipping the one true G-d. One other thing he did was required them to address him by this title: 'Epiphanes' which means in greek, "G-d Manifest".

After Alexander the Great had conquered most of the known world the story begins. When he died at a very young age, his four generals divided the conquered territories between themselves. The Ptolemies took the area around Egypt, and the Seleucids took the area that is today Syria. Judea was almost a no-man's land between them, fought over by both sides. Eventually the Seleucids under Antiochus IV gained power and control over Judea. In order to secure his position, Antiochus required all the captured people to adopt the Greek way of life called Hellenism. This was not a problem in most areas because the Greek culture was very respected in those times and many of the Jews adopted it and gave up the Law and teachings of the prophets. There were, however, many die hard rebels who could not give up their worship of the one true G-d and this angered Antiochus.


Is it not the same in our time? Is the Greek culture still not ruling over us? Hasn't HaShem told us that he would never do anything without warning first?

[Sephania]

1 After that first vision, it was in the third year of the reign of King Belshatzar that another vision appeared to me, Dani'el. 2 I looked into the vision; and as I looked, I found myself in Shushan the capital, in the province of 'Eilam. I looked into the vision, and I was by the Ulai canal. 3 I looked up; and as I watched, there in front of the stream stood a ram with two horns. The horns were long, but one was longer than the other, and the longer one came up later [than the other]. 4 I saw the ram pushing to the west, north and south; and no animals could stand up against it; nor was there anyone that could rescue from its power. So it did as it pleased and became very strong. 5 I was beginning to understand, when a male goat came from the west, passing over the whole earth without touching the ground. The goat had a prominent horn between its eyes. 6 It approached the ram with the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the river, and charged it with savage force. 7 I watched as it advanced on the ram, filled with rage against it, and struck the ram, breaking its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it. It threw the ram to the ground and trampled it down, and there was no one that could rescue it from the goat's power. 8 The male goat then became extremely strong; but when it was strong, the big horn was broken; and in its place arose what appeared to be four horns in the directions of the four winds of heaven. 9 Out of one of them came a little horn which grew extremely big in the directions of the south and east, and in the direction of the Glory. 10 It grew so great that it reached the army of heaven; it hurled some of the army and the stars to the ground and trampled on them. 11 Yes, it even considered itself as great as the prince of the army; the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Through sin, the army was put in its power, along with the regular burnt offering. It flung truth on the ground as it acted and prospered. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the speaker, "How long will the events of the vision last, this vision concerning the regular offering and the transgression which is so appalling, that allows the sanctuary and the army to be trampled underfoot?" 14 The first said to me, "Two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings, after which the sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state." 15 After I, Dani'el, had seen the vision and was trying to understand it, suddenly there stood in front of me someone who appeared to be a man. 16 I heard a human voice calling from between the banks of the Ulai, "Gavri'el, make this man understand the vision!" 17 He came up to where I was standing, and his approach so terrified me that I fell on my face. But he said to me, "Human being! Understand that the vision refers to the time of the end." 18 As he was speaking with me, I fell into a deep sleep, with my face toward the ground; but he touched me, set me on my feet, 19 and said, "I am going to explain to you what will happen at the end of the period of fury, because [the vision] has to do with the time at the end. 20 You saw a ram with two horns which are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy male goat is the king of Greece, and the prominent horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the horn that broke and the four which rose up in its place, four kingdoms will arise out of this nation, but not with the power the first king had. 23 In the latter part of their reign, when the evildoers have become as evil as possible, there will arise an arrogant king skilled in intrigue. 24 His power will be great, but not with the power the first king had. He will be amazingly destructive, he will succeed in whatever he does, and he will destroy the mighty and the holy ones. 25 He will succeed through craftiness and deceit, become swelled with pride, and destroy many people just when they feel the most secure. He will even challenge the prince of princes; but, without human intervention, he will be broken. 26 The vision of the evenings and mornings which has been told is true; but you are to keep the vision secret, because it is about days in the distant future." 27 I, Dani'el, grew weak and was ill for some days. Then I got up and took care of the king's affairs; but I was appalled at the vision and still couldn't understand it.

[Sephania]

Now after reading that , let's talk about why the L-rD had Daniel veiwing this from Shushan? Where else do we hear about Shushan? In our other "Non-seven" holiday, Purim, Esther.

Ahasuerus, the future husband of Esther, sat on his throne in Shushan , where the palace was located.

7 In the first month, the month of Nisan, in the twelfth year of Achashverosh, they began throwing pur (that is, they cast lots) before Haman every day and every month until the twelfth month, which is the month of Adar. 8 Then Haman said to Achashverosh, "There is a particular people scattered and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom. Their laws are different from those of every other people; moreover, they don't observe the king's laws. It doesn't befit the king to tolerate them. 9 If it please the king, have a decree written for their destruction; and I will hand over 330 tons of silver to the officials in charge of the king's affairs to deposit in the royal treasury." 10 The king took his signet ring from his hand and gave it to Haman the son of Hamdata the Agagi, the enemy of the Jews. 11 The king said to Haman, "The money is given to you, and the people too, to do with as seems good to you." 12 The king's secretaries were summoned on the thirteenth day of the first month. They wrote down all Haman's orders to the king's army commanders and governors in all the provinces and to the officials of every people, to each province in its own script and to each people in their own language; everything was written in the name of King Achashverosh and sealed with the king's signet ring. 13 Letters were sent by courier to all the royal provinces "to destroy, kill and exterminate all Jews, from young to old, including small children and women, on a specific day, the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar, and to seize their goods as plunder." 14 A copy of the document to be issued as a decree in every province was to be publicly proclaimed to all the peoples, so that they would be ready for that day.

15 At the king's order the runners went out quickly, and the decree was issued in Shushan the capital. Then the king and Haman sat down for a drink together, but the city of Shushan was thrown into confusion.

4:8 He also gave him a copy of the decree for their destruction issued in Shushan

[visionary]

Daniel 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:.......20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Godly man, Daniel was studying the scriptures and praying when he is given a more detail breakdown of events to fulfill.

...while abomination upon abomination has been heap upon and mixed in with the truth, until the tiime comes when desolation is complete, and the curses will be poured out upon the people...we have yet many things to uncover and bring forth. The work of the believer is to leave no stone unturned and but they all must be put in its proper place (until it is time to put in the chief corner stone to finish God's building, so that means no truth untold, no lost coins, and no hidden talents.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

To fulfill all of Daniel...those things I have highlighted must be fulfilled and they were not with Yeshua's first coming. Since they reveal the sanctuary work on the Day of Atonement, one of the fall feasts, I would venture to say that they will be fulfilled in Yeshua's time of second event.

[Sephania]

Did you see no connection between Daniel and Esther and Hanukkah? :confused:

[Sephania]

This is interesting:
Esther1:15 At the king's order the runners went out quickly, and the decree was issued in Shushan the capital. Then the king and Haman sat down for a drink together, but the city of Shushan was thrown into confusion.


Daniel 11 27 These two kings, bent on mischief, will sit at the same table, speaking lies to each other; but none of this will succeed; because the appointed end will not have come yet.

28 Then the king of the north will return to his own land with great wealth; with his heart set against the holy covenant, he will take action and then return home. 29 "At the time designated, he will come back to the south. But this time, things will turn out differently than before; 30 because ships from Kittim will come against him, so that his courage will fail him. Then, in retreat, he will take furious action against the holy covenant, again showing favor to those who abandon the holy covenant. 31 Armed forces will come at his order and profane the sanctuary and fortress. They will abolish the daily burnt offering and set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 Those who act wickedly against the covenant he will corrupt with his blandishments, but the people who know their God will stand firm and prevail.

33 Those among the people who have discernment will cause the rest of the people to understand what is happening; nevertheless, for a while they will fall victim to sword, fire, exile and pillage. 34 When they stumble, they will receive a little help, although many who join them will be insincere.

35 Even some of those with discernment will stumble, so that some of them will be refined, purified and cleansed for an end yet to come at the designated time.

[Sephania]

Funny, I remember one of the sites I got the info on Antiochus at, said that what he did fulfilled Daniel's vision about the abomination, but that isn't true at all.

Maybe part one, so that all Jews would be aware of this? Celebrating hanukkah each year, teaching the children the meaning of it, even under penelty of death ( ther reason for the dreidel). Why? I think it HaSatan;s doing. To not have knowledge. This was not part of the Bible. Yes, we have Maccabees, but did everyone? It is almost like Pasache, you tell a story, and to make it stay in the memory, it goes for 8 nights. Chrsitmas was a help as it gave the Jewish children the desire to have "presents", but that would only help to instill in them the meaning of the holiday. For how many will read the warnings in the New Testament?

For Yeshua said,

15 "So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani'el standing in the Holy Place" (let the reader understand the allusion), 16 "that will be the time for those in Y'hudah to escape to the hills. Matthew 24

Notice it says "let the reader understand"? Now Matthew was said to be written down somewhere between 40-60CE. Now how many would have read it if it was for their time?; as I have seen many propose it had to have been during the talmidims lifetime because of the destruction of the temple Yeshua was talking about, they group in with this.

I am starting to see a pattern of things twice fulfilled.

[TikkunIsrael]

In Hebrew an agada is a legend. The oral Torah is full of them. From Rebecca being only three years old when she met Isaac, to the two stones of Jacob's ladder becoming one. Many Jewish scholars see agadot as "it could've happened this way." While many ultra-orthodox see it as undeniable as scripture. Let us now explore Judaism's most believed agada... the miracle of the oil at Hannukah.

While personally I believe in miracles for today, I also believe in truth. As a messianic teaching the christian world about Jewish Roots, the Hannukah miracle is one of the most convenient messages to convey. How I wish it were true!

To the readers who may see this as an attack... take some time and read the book of Macabees (the original story). Try to find the miracle of Hannukah. It is not there! It is not even hinted at! While it is there that they celebrated the feast of Tabernacles late, it is not there that there was no oil.

My wife did a deeper study to find how the miracle story came about. After loosing the Bar Kochkva and other revolts while these started inspired by the Macabees victory just a century before... the rabis came up with a plan. They knew they were risking the existence of many Jewish people if they were to loose another revolt. What was the plan? Change the theme of Hannukah. Change it from righteous revolt to a miracle story. Thus the agada of Hannukah of the oil came about. Truly G-d wants us to learn to stand for righteousness during this season, and it will not be blotted out or watered down by a lie believed for centuries.

[Shimshon]

To the readers who may see this as an attack... take some time and read the book of Macabees (the original story). Try to find the miracle of Hannukah. It is not there! It is not even hinted at! While it is there that they celebrated the feast of Tabernacles late, it is not there that there was no oil.

So, Hannukah is as much of a myth/lie as Christmas? Is that what you are impying Tikkun? :confused:

No, i'm not feeling attacked :) just curious to what you mean.

b,shalom
Shimshon

[TikkunIsrael]

The original story of Hannukah is not a lie. This is what Yeshua celebrated in John 10. This is the righteous victory of the Macabees over the false gods of the Greeks. This is not a lie.

The lie is the miracle of the oil. This is what you call in Hebrew ... "agada."

Its ok to have agadot (legends) as long as they are kept to just that.

The problem is that now legends are believed as facts.

[Sephania]

Please let us not get sidetracked, there are many other Hanukkah threads here to speak about this on. My topic was what happened BEFORE the "Miracle" what happened to the people, the temple, the mitzvot. I dont' believe I even went into the oil or lights, miracle in this thread, so why the purposful derailment?

[visionary]

Almost two and a half millennia ago, Judea was ruled by Antiochus, a Syrian king. He attempted to assimilate the Jews into Greek culture, commanding them to worship Greek gods while oppressing Jewish culture and religion. Many Jews refused to do so. Led by Judah Maccabee and his brothers, the Jewish people, after a three-year struggle, overthrew their Syrian oppressors.

When Jerusalem's Temple was reclaimed, the Hebrews found it defiled by statues of the Greek gods and other religious artifacts. They cleared out the foreign icons and rededicated the temple on the 25th day of Kislev. As part of their campaign of oppression, the Greeks had systematically defiled any Jewish religious item they could find. So when the time came to light the N'er Tamid, the Eternal Light of the Temple, the Jews could find only one sanctified jar of oil—marked with the seal of the High Priest. It was enough to last one evening. The lamp was lit with this small jar of oil and, miraculously, stayed lit for eight days, until more oil suitable for the temple was found.