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Shimshon
2nd December 2004, 01:49 PM
Yeshua HaMoshiach et ADONAI La’kavod Elohim HaAv


Avinu impressed this question to me again this morning, “who is “ADONAI” according to scripture? I know what I've been taugh by the Ruach HaKodesh. Yet, this topic is so controversial that it has lead to the division between the soul and spirit of every individual (or congregation) who burdens themselves with this issue.

Some say YHVH Elohim is One. NEVER to be flesh, only Spirit. Some say Yeshua is Elohim. Some say YHVH is Elohim and Yeshua is the Son of Elohim, as in Yeshua was “created” by Elohim. Some say he is merely a prophet. Some………I won’t mention the derogatory mentions of his character.

Nu…..Who do YOU say Yeshua is? I believe my post title and emphasis in the following scriptures reveal how I see him.

B,Shalom
Shimshon


Yeshayahu 45
18 For thus says ADONAI (YHVH), who created the heavens, God, who shaped and made the earth, who established and created it not to be chaos, but formed it to be lived in: "I am ADONAI (Yeshua); there is no other……………..21……Who foretold this long ago, announced it in times gone by? Wasn't it I, ADONAI? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God; there is no other. 23 In the name of myself I have sworn, from my mouth has rightly gone out, a word that will not return - that to me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear 24 about me that only in ADONAI (Yeshua) are justice and strength."

Philippians 2
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal! 9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name; 10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow - in heaven, on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is ADONAI (YHVH) - to the glory of God the Father.

Shmot 34
34 But when he went in before ADONAI (the Spirit) for him to speak, he would take the veil off until he came out; then, when he came out, he would tell the people of Isra'el what he had been ordered. 35 But when the people of Isra'el saw Moshe's face, that the skin of Moshe's face shone, he would put the veil back over his face until he went in again to speak with [ADONAI].

2 Corinthians 3
16 "But," says the Torah, "whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away." 17 Now, "ADONAI" in this text means the Spirit. And where the Spirit of ADONAI is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us, with faces unveiled, see as in a mirror the glory of the Lord; and we are being changed into his very image, from one degree of glory to the next, by ADONAI the Spirit.



Portion of “THE NAME OF GOD IN THE COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE by David Stern
The Greek word kurios is frequently ambiguous. It can mean “sir,” “lord” (as in “lord of the manor”), “Lord” (with divine overtones), and “Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh.” Most translations by always rendering kurios “Lord”, finesse the issue of when it means that translators should decide the true meaning of a word and render that meaning clearly, rather than transfer vagueness from one language to another, the word “ADONAI” is used in the B’rit Hadasha wherever I, as the translator, believe “kurios” is the Greek representation of the tetragrammaton.

In several places this approach brings into bold relief a key theological issue separating Messianic from traditional Judaism, namely, wheather ADONAI can include Yeshua the Messiah and/or the Holy Spirit. Philippians 2:10-11 informs us that the day is coming when “every knee will bow….and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is kurios.” Since this passage quotes Isaiah 45:23, where it is explicit that every knee will bow to ADONAI, kurios is here translated “ADONAI.” At 2 Corinthians 3:16-18 Sha’ul (Paul) alludes to Exodus 34:34 in writing that “whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away”; then he explicitly points out that “’ADONAI’ in this text means the Spirit,” and uses the phrase, “ADONAI the Spirit.”

Jasmine-FL
2nd December 2004, 01:54 PM
To me Jesus is YHVH

visionary
2nd December 2004, 02:06 PM
Yeshua HaMoshiach et ADONAI La’kavod Elohim HaAv


Avinu impressed this question to me again this morning, “who is “ADONAI” according to scripture? I know what I've been taugh by the Ruach HaKodesh. Yet, this topic is so controversial that it has lead to the division between the soul and spirit of every individual (or congregation) who burdens themselves with this issue.

Some say YHVH Elohim is One. NEVER to be flesh, only Spirit. Some say Yeshua is Elohim. Some say YHVH is Elohim and Yeshua is the Son of Elohim, as in Yeshua was “created” by Elohim. Some say he is merely a prophet. Some………I won’t mention the derogatory mentions of his character.

Nu…..Who do YOU say Yeshua is? I believe my post title and emphasis in the following scriptures reveal how I see him.

B,Shalom
Shimshon


Yeshayahu 45
18 For thus says ADONAI (YHVH), who created the heavens, God, who shaped and made the earth, who established and created it not to be chaos, but formed it to be lived in: "I am ADONAI (Yeshua); there is no other……………..21……Who foretold this long ago, announced it in times gone by? Wasn't it I, ADONAI? There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides me. 22 Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God; there is no other. 23 In the name of myself I have sworn, from my mouth has rightly gone out, a word that will not return - that to me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear 24 about me that only in ADONAI (Yeshua) are justice and strength."
Here you have Adonai (Yeshua)

Philippians 2
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are. And when he appeared as a human being, 8 he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death - death on a stake as a criminal! 9 Therefore God raised him to the highest place and gave him the name above every name; 10 that in honor of the name given Yeshua, every knee will bow - in heaven, on earth and under the earth 11 and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is ADONAI (YHVH) - to the glory of God the Father. Here you have Adonai Yeshua
Shmot 34
34 But when he went in before ADONAI (the Spirit) for him to speak, he would take the veil off until he came out; then, when he came out, he would tell the people of Isra'el what he had been ordered. 35 But when the people of Isra'el saw Moshe's face, that the skin of Moshe's face shone, he would put the veil back over his face until he went in again to speak with [ADONAI]. Here you have Adonai (the Spirit) which I would believe to be Yeshua..

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.... 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:


2 Corinthians 3
16 "But," says the Torah, "whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away." 17 Now, "ADONAI" in this text means the Spirit. And where the Spirit of ADONAI is, there is freedom. 18 So all of us, with faces unveiled, see as in a mirror the glory of the Lord; and we are being changed into his very image, from one degree of glory to the next, by ADONAI the Spirit. As we are to be changed into his very image ( we were created in His image) I would again see Adonai Yeshua


Portion of “THE NAME OF GOD IN THE COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE by David Stern
The Greek word kurios is frequently ambiguous. It can mean “sir,” “lord” (as in “lord of the manor”), “Lord” (with divine overtones), and “Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh.” Most translations by always rendering kurios “Lord”, finesse the issue of when it means that translators should decide the true meaning of a word and render that meaning clearly, rather than transfer vagueness from one language to another, the word “ADONAI” is used in the B’rit Hadasha wherever I, as the translator, believe “kurios” is the Greek representation of the tetragrammaton.


In several places this approach brings into bold relief a key theological issue separating Messianic from traditional Judaism, namely, wheather ADONAI can include Yeshua the Messiah and/or the Holy Spirit. Philippians 2:10-11 informs us that the day is coming when “every knee will bow….and every tongue will acknowledge that Yeshua the Messiah is kurios.” Since this passage quotes Isaiah 45:23, where it is explicit that every knee will bow to ADONAI, kurios is here translated “ADONAI.” At 2 Corinthians 3:16-18 Sha’ul (Paul) alludes to Exodus 34:34 in writing that “whenever someone turns to ADONAI, the veil is taken away”; then he explicitly points out that “’ADONAI’ in this text means the Spirit,” and uses the phrase, “ADONAI the Spirit.”

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Buccaneer
2nd December 2004, 02:43 PM
When I read the title of this i knew what verse it refered to coincedently the same one i used when asked who i think Yeshua is. I say he is "The messiah, the son of the living God." he may be YHWH i must investigate further. Its interesting to note to trinitarians that say he is the son that in Isaiah:
Isaiah 9:6c
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Shimshon
2nd December 2004, 03:23 PM
Why you change who Adonai is??? depending on vers??
I changed nothing.

In 2 Philippians it states "Yeshua the Messiah is ADONAI - to the glory of G-d the Father. And according to David Stern this refered to Isaiah 45 and proves the usage of "ADONAI" as YHVH. So in the Yeshayahu 45 quote I inserted in parenths the implication. That ADONAI referes to Yeshua in Yeshayahu 45.

The same with 2 corinthians. As stated "Now, "ADONAI" in this text means the Spirit." "ADONAI the Spirit". And is refering to Shm'ot 34:34 proving the usage of "ADONAI" as Spirit. So in Shm'ot 34 I inserted in parenths the implication. That ADONAI refers to the Spirit.

I then posted David Sterns Forward on this subject to clarify my intent. I was merely gathering the examples of this issue in one place and overlaying the implications.

b,shalom
Shimshon

visionary
2nd December 2004, 09:16 PM
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.... 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers[starting with Moses]: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
I think you missed the part that it was Yeshua who was on Mount Sinai receiving the living oracles from His Father to give to us.

Shmot 34
34 But when he went in before ADONAI (the Spirit) for him to speak, he would take the veil off until he came out; then, when he came out, he would tell the people of Isra'el what he had been ordered. 35 But when the people of Isra'el saw Moshe's face, that the skin of Moshe's face shone, he would put the veil back over his face until he went in again to speak with [ADONAI].