Ye/Jshua Transliteration? Festivals and family?

[Sophie The Questioner]

:help: :help:

I am confused about why most messianic Jews use Yeshua, and those in my tradition used Jshua, the reason apparently is to do with vowel usage in transliteration. Yeshua was a common name but Jshua, signifies the son of Gd, forfillmet of the law and is the messiah. I know this is really minsicule fiddling over spelling and semantics, but does anyone of any of the messianic Jewish traditions know of this convention and why it may have come about?

I notice also that orthodox Jews and I assume messianic jews celebrate the festival of Purim with great joy. But we tend not to. There is something about the absence of the Megillah scroll in the Dead Sea Scrolls that hints at why, aparrently they had a different view of it. Does anyone have any information as to way and again is there any messianic traditions that hold a similar view.

Hanukkah is another festival, to us of great importance, mainly due to the "Sicari" tradition (This is the roman word I am using, which was decribing the nationlists during the hellenic period, it means "Knife Men"), For obvious reasons the concept of story has significance with respect to thier aspirations and subsequentially ours today. Again is there a messianic tradition in all the Flavours mentioned that hold similar importance.

In essense the tradition I learned was more familial because it is so small, There is thus a remote possibility that anyone who holds to this stuff specifically would be a long lost relative. If this so they would probably be either from Polish or Ashkenaz communities.

I also read a breif commentary (In the FAQ) about two other sects within the messianic Jewish community who were Netzarim, but were "Self proclaimed" I know the tradition I belong to has such teachings, but claims descent from the original or otherwise the Sicari as the Romans called them. (Dont know if they were seperate)

So are there any hebrew scholars who know about this, or people who belong to this obscure tradition (Which I wont name, because I want to know if the description elicits the name) And if so can we talk :wave:

Shalom

Sophie.

[Sephania]

From my understanding and study, the Hebrew language does not contain the letter "J". Nor was there even a letter "J" until the middle ages.

http://www.krysstal.com/writing_evolution_latin.html

The Etruscans and hence the Romans borrowed upsilon while it was still pronounced oo, and the Romans used the letter for both that vowel and for the equivalent consonant sound w, using the form V for the capital and u for the lowercase. (Similarly, they used I for both the vowel ee and the equivalent consonant y as in yak.) As Latin gradually evolved into French, Italian, Spanish and the like, sound changes affected the consonantal V and I, and the modern distinction between U and V and I and J was coined out of necessity. The letter W is of Germanic origin.

Iota (http://www.christianforums.com/3)

Iota derives from a Phoenician letter called jôd which had the sound of y in yak (spelled j in phonetics). The Greek language had lost this sound at an early stage, but it's actually the sound of ee as in see clipped so short that it becomes a consonant. Having no need for this consonant, the Greeks used the letter iota as the equivalent vowel.

http://www.scbd.connectfree.co.uk/alphabet/iota.gif

Classical Greek drew a distinction between short and long iota: long iota is like ee in see, and short iota is the same sound but shorter (though still more of an ee than the "short i" of an English word like bit).

Iota is used is forming a number of diphthongs (http://www.scbd.connectfree.co.uk/alphabet/#diph).

Iota is the smallest and thinnest of all the Greek letters, and it's for this reason that we say not an iota (or the corruption not a jot) to mean "an insignificant amount".

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi Zayit :wave:

From my understanding and study, the Hebrew language does not contain the letter "J". Nor was there even a letter "J" until the middle ages.Thanks for that informaton, I am aware of the non existance of J in the hebrew alphabet. It is the process of transliteration to the hellenic languages I was curious about.

However this does shed some interesting light for me :)



(http://www.christianforums.com/3)Iota (http://www.christianforums.com/3)

Iota derives from a Phoenician letter called jôd which had the sound of y in yak (spelled j in phonetics). The Greek language had lost this sound at an early stage, but it's actually the sound of ee as in see clipped so short that it becomes a consonant. Having no need for this consonant, the Greeks used the letter iota as the equivalent vowel.
(http://www.christianforums.com/3)

Which corresponds to the letter Yod in the hebrew alphabet, Spelling it out
(Left to right) Yod Shin Vaw Ayin Heh It would transliterate as "Yo/Ye/Je/J/shuah" ?
It is not so much the "J" which may well have been of a hellenic influence, but the vowel usage,
For some reason there was a thing about "Saying" sacred names with leading vowels. Like yes for common usage (As Yeshua is a common name) that is fine, but when referring to the messiah, it was "Dont mention the vowel" It is the origin of this I am trying to pin down.
I clearly see (With great interest :) ) how the Greek phonetic clipping idea fits in with this, but the hostility towards anything hellenic does make me think twice. Also if you look at the evolution of the even more helleinic "Jesus" the vowel appears to be prominent.

I know Yshua was also permissable, as long as the pronunciation didnt soften to a vowel following it. I will take the hellenised phonetics idea on board though, because it is interesting. I have heard other variations.

Yoshua, Joshua, Yeshua, Jshua, Jeshua, Jeshuoah, Yeshuoah, Yshuah and Yshua.

Thanks for you helpful insight it is solving a few riddles in my mind. I wonder if there is an effect here, a lingual evolution that is not dissimilar to regional accents for example. If so it could be possible to assign some geographical locations to the origins of some of these pronunciations.

I confess I am not linguistics expert, so this will be much more a mystery to me than it would be to yourself. I greatly appreciate your knowledge :)

Shalom

Sophie

[simchat_torah]

I notice also that orthodox Jews and I assume messianic jews celebrate the festival of Purim with great joy. But we tend not to. That's because messianics pick and choose what they want from Judaism. There really is no standard, and you'll see some MJ congregations that have big purim festivals, and a lot that don't. Its a "pick and choose" mix.

[shmuel]

The English symbol for j is derived from the Semitic yod by way of the Greek iota and the Latin i. When the symbol j was first introduced into English, it was pronounced the same as the Hebrew yod, i.e. like the consonantal use of y. The shift in sound to that of a soft g occurred after the introduction as a result of French influence.

The Messiah's name is understood by Messianic Jews to be spelled yod-shin-vav-ayin. This is the late Hebrew and Aramaic equivalent of the longer form yod-he-vav-shin-ayin. The longer form is on a few occasions spelled yod-he-vav-shin-vav-ayin. The longer form is usually transliterated as Yehoshua and the shorter as Yeshua. Since Greek has no discrete sound corresponding to he (the English h) the Greek spelling iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma is used in Greek to transliterated both forms.

Neither the short form or the long form terminates with he (h). Also, ayin is a guttural consonant that has no English equivalent. It is not the vowel a. The a that is written in Yeshua or Yehoshua is really a furtive patach that is a very brief sound inserted after the u sound to facilitate the pronunciation of the final ayin. A more precise transliteration would be Yeshua` where ` is used to represent ayin. The vowel point that appears under the yod in Yeshua` is a tsere, which is a long e. It is a full vowel and should be pronounced. The vowel point under the yod in Yehoshua` is a sheva, which is a half vowel that is dropped in rapid speech. Thus the long form may also be written as Yhoshua` (or by some as Y'hoshua`).

The forms Jeshuoah, Yeshuoah are impossible because two consecutive full vowels cannot occur in Hebrew. Full vowels must be separated by either one or two consonants.

S

[Shimshon]

Shmuel, absolutly superb. Awesome. Todah rabba Achi :thumbsup:

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi Shmuel :wave:

Very useful, Thankyou, As I said to Zayit, I confess to not being a linguistic expert, and some of the anomalies are mystifying to me. (Except for the web spelling quotes I was being slightly playful)

The Messiah's name is understood by Messianic Jews to be spelled yod-shin-vav-ayin. This is the late Hebrew and Aramaic equivalent of the longer form yod-he-vav-shin-ayin. The longer form is on a few occasions spelled yod-he-vav-shin-vav-ayin. The longer form is usually transliterated as Yehoshua and the shorter as Yeshua. Since Greek has no discrete sound corresponding to he (the English h) the Greek spelling iota-eta-sigma-omicron-upsilon-sigma is used in Greek to transliterated both forms.
Well that puts a date on the origin of the word as used presently by Messianic Jews in general, the termination using the letter H just seems to be there in some of the writings I knew. We do generally spell it without that. (Again there is possibly some spook reason for it, which I have yet to find out about)
I imagine there is some typographic strangeness going on in the stuff I read as a child. Very helpful to know that this is not generally the case, leaving me wondering why sometimes the spelling was as it was in this case. Curious.
I think it is best for me to concentrate on the more concerete questions about the start of the word to be honest.

I would at some time be interested in a number of terms I know of but have never found in orthodox circles. we should discuss this sometime.


The forms Jeshuoah, Yeshuoah are impossible because two consecutive full vowels cannot occur in Hebrew. Full vowels must be separated by either one or two consonants.

Well I confess to pulling one or two of the spellings from the web. Just to illustrate how many spellings, (including the typograhically nonsensical) there are out there.

I have had this difficulty before, where such strange differences seem to spark intriguing debate. I think to avoid further confusion I should avoid being playful with quotations (Such as pulling random spellings from the web), so forgive me for that. It only adds to the confusion.

I am very grateful to you people for taking the time to point me in the direction of these clarifications. It is hard for me trying to trace a familial tradition, because that will without doubt depart from the mainstream in general, I was sort of hoping that the unusual stuff would act as a marker and someone would go "Hey I know that". who knows it may still happen, but in the meantime your explaining things is most helpful.

Much appreciated :)

Sophie

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi Simchat Torah :wave:

That's because messianics pick and choose what they want from Judaism. There really is no standard, and you'll see some MJ congregations that have big purim festivals, and a lot that don't. Its a "pick and choose" mix.
That's confusing, With the inherently strange tradition I speak of, Purim is a rather solemn affair, Sort of "Yes Isreal was saved, but is was not exactly without being messy" It is more "Be Grateful" than "Be happy" (Dont ask I am just quoting :angel: ) I have seen orthodox Jews throwing huge huge parties at this time (I envy them to be honest:) )
especially the Hasidim.

It appears as you say within the messianic community it is so varied, it would be fascinating to see why, how they interperet the festival and what meanings they gain from it. For me the absence of Eshter from the Dead sea scrolls is curious, Perhaps I am reading too much into that. I would be very interested to know what the opinions of those are who play it down a bit during Purim.

The truth is I am trying to work out a strange enigma of a tradition I lived with as a child, I am hoping this time, with the advent of forums such as this I can find out more about it.

Thankyou for you comments, they are actually very helpful in my figuring all this out.

Shalom

Sophie.

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi All

I have been checking out the Netzarim, (The two traditions mentioned in the FAQ) Actually a lot of stuff matches up, The older stuff (Pre 13th Cent) Is pretty much a carbon copy of some of the things I remember being told as a child, Still havent sussed the typography thoug. I am more convinced that the original must have continued for longer via familial traditions.

I must say I am very grateful to you people, because you have given me much to consider

Shalom

Sophie.