Definition of legalism...

[By Grace]

How would you define legalism? Apparently it's not "putting too much emphasis on obedience."

Also, a somewhat related question:

In your opinion, what did Y'shua condemn the Pharisees, priests, and others for doing (or not doing)?

TIA,

[Shimshon]

How would you define legalism? o.k. i'll start. I'm sure everyone can look up the "legal" ^_^ definition in the dictionary. So I will give my 2 shekels of personal opinion.

Legalism; the observance or adherence of the law over/or replacing the intent of the law.

i.e. Do I follow the speed limit when my wife is bleeding to death and I have to drive her to the hospital? Legalisticly observing the rule over the intent of such. Intent being protecting others and keeping them "alive". If I drive the speed limit in a legalistic way. My wife will more than likely die.

Legalism is the cop giving me a ticket and following me to the hospital making sure I never drove over the limit. Love is saying, "Follow me I will lead the way".

I don't think this is the best analogy to use but it's the first one that came to me. Ishai, NO I do not constantly think of your death!! :P Just that loosing you would devestate me :kiss: I'll take the fine and incarseration, and if a legalistic cop wants to follow me with his lights on.....cool. ^_^ ;)


Next.


b,shalom
Shimshon

[TikkunIsrael]

Spirit and not the Letter... the Spirit of the Torah and not the letter

[TikkunIsrael]

Like King Hezekiah

[TikkunIsrael]

Legalism judges everything while the Spirit seeks justice for all

[visionary]

There is God's law...then there is the laws that define the laws perameters. These perameter laws are the "legalisms" that people are often judged by when judged by their fellowman. Since God's ways are not our ways, finite mind defining infinite wisdom...how foolish to think that is possible.

[By Grace]

o.k. i'll start. I'm sure everyone can look up the "legal" ^_^ definition in the dictionary. So I will give my 2 shekels of personal opinion.
That was exactly my problem! I looked it up in the dictionary: "1. strict adherence to law or prescription 2. the theological doctrine that salvaion is gained through good works" Didn't Y'shua strictly adhere to the law? Does that mean He was legalistic? Of course not! So what is legalism?

Legalism; the observance or adherence of the law over/or replacing the intent of the law.

I think this is a good definition. But would there be more to it? For me, resting is getting away from the house and doing something for myself, like get a haircut or massage or something. But would that be acceptable for Shabbat? If the intent of the law is to rest and get a break from your normal responsibilities, seems like that would be an ideal activity for me in my situation. But that doesn't really jive with what the law says. So do I choose intent, or letter? (I recognize there are ways to do both, so that I get to rest--a little--without compromising the letter of the law, either. But that's hard to do!)

[Sephania]

Some are more tied up in how to do something, either keep a mitzvah or keep from doing ( the negative ones) than the purpose. Some combine this with too much tradition (something Yeshua said should never override the spirit of torah) and the reason they are doing it loses its meaining.

Remember what Sh'ual said, basically you could follow every letter of every law (pertaining to you of course) but if you had not love, you were nothing.

Some try to grow in obedience and others try to grow in observance. Which is better?

What did Yeshua condemn the P'rushim for? For following the letter of the law without any heart. They showed no love or mercy. They put burdens on the people by blanket law interpretation.

Yochanon, who was indwelt by the Spirit since before birth, called them vipers, and asked them who warned them of the wrath to come? He told them to bring fruit of repentance, being a son of Abraham would not save them.

I think that mainly they were "fruitless" in the love and mercy department. This was the yoke and burden referred to. They were not of the Spirit but of the flesh.

He constantly reminded them of Oshea 6:6 Mercy and not sacrifice. Mercy, and knowledge that is the key.

His mother Miriam prophesied this after Gabriel visited her: .............and his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. Read all of chapter 1 of Luke

[Sephania]

I think this is a good definition. But would there be more to it? For me, resting is getting away from the house and doing something for myself, like get a haircut or massage or something. But would that be acceptable for Shabbat? If the intent of the law is to rest and get a break from your normal responsibilities, seems like that would be an ideal activity for me in my situation. But that doesn't really jive with what the law says. So do I choose intent, or letter? (I recognize there are ways to do both, so that I get to rest--a little--without compromising the letter of the law, either. But that's hard to do!)If you believe that Shabbat is about you resting and doing something for yourself then you really don't understand the meaning of Shabbat. ( Not picking here, just being honest). Not only that but going for a massage ( flesh) or haircut (vanity) you would also be doing commerece, you may be resting by you are causing someone else to work. Or were you speaking of the Christian view of what a Sabbath is? :)

The intent of the law is not for ourselves, it was a day made for us to be able to only concentrate on HaShem and higher things than everyday concerns. We cook our food the day before, so we don't worry about 'what we will have for supper', we wash and iron our clothes the rest of the week, so we don't have to 'worry about what to wear' etc. We have to do these things the rest of the week but we don't on Shabbat! On Shabbat we don't have these things holding us down, we can rise above the mundane and the secular and concentrate, our whole selves on the Holy. For that is our future, nu? We don't look forward to a heaven where we will cook or clean or bake or wash or work a job do we? No we look forward to that day of uninterupted worship of our creator! :bow:

Isaiah 58:13 "If you hold back your foot on Shabbat from pursuing your own interests on my holy day;
if you call Shabbat a delight, ADONAI's holy day, worth honoring;
then honor it by not doing your usual things or pursuing your interests or speaking about them.
14 If you do, you will find delight in ADONAI - I will make you ride on the heights of the land and feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Ya'akov, for the mouth of ADONAI has spoken."

[By Grace]

If you believe that Shabbat is about you resting and doing something for yourself then you really don't understand the meaning of Shabbat. ( Not picking here, just being honest). Not only that but going for a massage ( flesh) or haircut (vanity) you would also be doing commerece, you may be resting by you are causing someone else to work. Or were you speaking of the Christian view of what a Sabbath is? :)

The intent of the law is not for ourselves, it was a day made for us to be able to only concentrate on HaShem and higher things than everyday concerns. We cook our food the day before, so we don't worry about 'what we will have for supper', we wash and iron our clothes the rest of the week, so we don't have to 'worry about what to wear' etc. We have to do these things the rest of the week but we don't on Shabbat! On Shabbat we don't have these things holding us down, we can rise above the mundane and the secular and concentrate, our whole selves on the Holy. For that is our future, nu? We don't look forward to a heaven where we will cook or clean or bake or wash or work a job do we? No we look forward to that day of uninterupted worship of our creator! :bow:

Isaiah 58:13 "If you hold back your foot on Shabbat from pursuing your own interests on my holy day;
if you call Shabbat a delight, ADONAI's holy day, worth honoring;
then honor it by not doing your usual things or pursuing your interests or speaking about them.
14 If you do, you will find delight in ADONAI - I will make you ride on the heights of the land and feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Ya'akov, for the mouth of ADONAI has spoken."
Sorry, that wasn't a great example at all. True, I don't really understand Shabbat, and I need to study it more. But if it helps, I don't go for massages or haircuts (both of which are really a treat for me since I don't get out that much) on Shabbat. I was thinking about whether a haircut would be okay on Shabbat b/c I recently made an appt. for this weekend before I realized what I had done, but I went back and moved the appt. even though it means I now have to hire a babysitter for my appt rather than just having DH watch the girls. A small price to pay, though.

Here is what I've come up with for legalism, based on what everyone has said. Please let me know if I'm off target, or if there's something I should add:

legalism: obedience without love, focusing too much on details or traditions, observance replacing intent, doing without heart or meaning, "blanket law interpretation", lack of repentance, obedience without a heart of humility

[visionary]

legalism: obedience without love, focusing too much on details or traditions, observance replacing intent, doing without heart or meaning, "blanket law interpretation", lack of repentance, obedience without a heart of humilityvery good...I can't think of anything else to add....excellent.

[By Grace]

bump for Bruce101 :)

[Charles YTK]

Legalism is trying to secure your status with God through the observance of Torah commands and other rituals of religious service.

What we are supposed to do is to live out the Torah from the heart where it is written. Our behavior begins to conform to Gods will as expressed in Torah because of a new life directed in us by the Spirit. Paul says in Ro 8 that the spiritual man's mind IS subject to the law of God.

Here is legalism defined by Paul:

RO 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. [6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) [7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) [8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

[schwartmrs]

I have on my hard drive an excellent teaching on legalism by a pastor named Ray Stedman. Here is a snippet of what he has to say:




"Legality is a mechanical and external behavior growing our of reliance on self, because of a desire to gain a reputation, display a skill, or satisfy an urge to personal power.

That is legality. It is religious performance, scrupulous and meticulous in its outward form, but, inwardly, as Jesus described it, "filled with dead men's bones," {Matt 23:27}. It is relying on self, personality, background, training, and talent or skill instead of the Spirit of God. And it is operating for and on behalf of one's own personal glory. That is full-orbed legality."


He goes on to say that legalism is also defined as "expecting others to live by the rules we have set for ourselves...essentially trying to make rules for each other instead of letting the Spirit lead each person's heart."

Only the Spirit can convict,
Only Yeshua can save,
Only HaShem can judge...
If we do anyof these things to another, we are usurping HaShem's role...
And wasn't this what Lucifer was cast from heaven for doing?

[plum]

He goes on to say that legalism is also defined as "expecting others to live by the rules we have set for ourselves...essentially trying to make rules for each other instead of letting the Spirit lead each person's heart."

Only the Spirit can convict,
Only Yeshua can save,
Only HaShem can judge...
If we do anyof these things to another, we are usurping HaShem's role...
This is where I see the strife between believers occur the most. I fight against this myself very often.

[Charles YTK]

He goes on to say that legalism is also defined as "expecting others to live by the rules we have set for ourselves...essentially trying to make rules for each other instead of letting the Spirit lead each person's heart."

I believe that to date there is something near 6000 Protestant denominations who all say they are following the spirits lead and yet do not agree and build separate church right across the street from one another to avoid each other. Is this the spirit? Are there many holy spirits? Or is there one Holy spirit who teaches all the same. When we enter the New Covenant the Spirit writes Gods Torah on our hearts. He leads us into truth by bringing the Torah on our hearts and the Torah of the scroll before us as a witness to God will for us. This is why there is only one law to instruct all those who are Gods children. We are one in Him. And God is Lord if we do what he says rather than what men say.

[Henaynei]

legalism = requiring obedience to a set of rules (be they Torah, Holiness doctrine, dress or behavior code) to qualify for Grace and Salvation

legalism = requiring the rejection of a set of rules (be they Torah, Holiness doctrine, dress or behavior code) to qualify for Grace and Salvation

[Bruce101]

legalism = requiring obedience to a set of rules (be they Torah, Holiness doctrine, dress or behavior code) to qualify for Grace and Salvation

legalism = requiring the rejection of a set of rules (be they Torah, Holiness doctrine, dress or behavior code) to qualify for Grace and Salvation

I would have to agrre with the above.
Sometimes we are wrongly accused of legalism, and I think most people have a hard time seperating salvation (by grace) from lifestyle when speaking of Torah, they will say that we believe that we are saved by our obedience to Torah, which, as we know, is wrong.

This seems to be the biggest problem I seem to run into in discussions.

Bruce

[Bon]

Do we call it LEGALISM by obeying the commandments of Yahweh with all our hearts?
Or is it ADDING to the commands of Yahweh?
Is it focusing too much on obedience and not enough on "salvation"?


The Scribes and Pharisees had added over 1000 laws to the Sabbath command, sometimes making exemptions for themselves. If there is such a thing as legalism, this would be it. It is adding to the word of Yahweh:

Mark 2:23 Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?" 25 But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 "how he went into the house of Yahweh [in] [the] [days] of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?" 27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Master of the Sabbath." Mark 3:1 And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand. 2 So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Luke 13:14 But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Yahushua had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day." 15 The Master then answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead [it] away to water it? 16 "So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound--think of it--for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?"

Deut 12:32 (NKJV) "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

According to Yahushua, the motives of the Scribes and Pharisees was not out of a love for Yahweh but out of a love for traditions and doctrines of men:

Mark 7:6 (NKJV) He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honors Me with [their] lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching [as] doctrines the commandments of men.' 8 "For laying aside the commandment of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

This is the common accusation of legalism which is considered to be focusing too much on obedience rather than salvation?

If someone said to you, "unless you are walking in obedience, you do not even know Yahshua at all."
If someone said to you, "if you claim to know Him, but do not walk in obedience, you are a liar."
Is that focusing too much on obedience? Is that legalism?

1 John 2:3-6 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of Elohim is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

If it had come out of any other man's mouth and not the scriptures themselves, it would be called legalism, right?

What if a man goes around teaching the commandments of Yahweh and really focusing on them? Would that be considered legalism?

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

I believe that the Word of Yahweh clearly teaches us to keep His commandments....and that it is His will that we do so. That is why He has placed these Laws on our inward parts...minds and hearts which is not legalism, but LOVE.

Shalom from Bon

[Charles YTK]

Well said Bon,

Since there is two threads open on this subject I am copying this post here because I want to bring Pauls comments into it, because they are often missunderstood.
_____________________________________________________


Legalism is trying to secure your status with God through the observance of Torah commands and other rituals of religious service.

What we are supposed to do is to live out the Torah from the heart where it is written. Our behavior begins to conform to Gods will as expressed in Torah because of a new life directed in us by the Spirit. Paul says in Ro 8 that the spiritual man's mind IS subject to the law of God.

Here is legalism defined by Paul:

RO 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. [6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) [8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


Also Paul uses a term in several places "Works of the law". Our Christian brothers take this to mean simple obedience to Torah. This is not correct at all. We must understand that Paul himself was a Torah keeper as were all the apostles and the first believers. In 2nd temple days the Pharises directed the practices of everyday Judaism and it was a very complex system of ritualistic observances and hedges, (protective laws around Torah). These things Paul referes to as "Works of the law" Law for the sake of law, you might say. Much of this is Oral Torah and is reflected in Talmud. Of these laws and regulations Messiah himself said "You teach as doctrine the commandments of men and make Gods law of no effect".

One such law is seen in the ritual of Pharisaical purity practices which says that Kosher, clean, food is made unclean by eating it without first washing your hands. This does not come from Torah but was mandated practice in the 2nd temple days by Rabbinical law. And the Pharisees bring an accusation against the disciples for not observing this ritual. Yeshua dispells them for paying attention to their own ritual details and using them to bring unfounded accusations against the righteous (a sin) and not observing Gods law.

Unfortunately those who are not well studied in the practices of ancient Judaism are allowed to teach in the Church and so they use these verse to try to prove that Yeshua broke the Kosher food laws. No,, the verses are not about Kosher food at all. It was about Pharisaical purity laws of hand washings. Had the issue been Kosher food then that would certainly have been their accusation because it is a higher command coming from Torah itself. Had Yeshua eaten unclean food then he would have broken Torah and would be a sinner, for sin is the breaking of the commandments.

In 2nd temple Judaism the Oral Torah was considered as authoritative as Torah and was observed as being all one and the same. But it was not the same. This is why Yeshua said that he came not to destroy Torah, but to fulfil. Fulfil in the Greek "Pleroo" means "To bring to fulness, to correctly establish, to make full." Yeshua came to redeem man from the power of sin, the penalty of sin and also to free Torah from the bondage of man made ordinances that had made it such a burden that no man could bear it, a law that had no effect. He restored Torah to the place of the heart. Observe that after saying this he tells us to keep and teach the commandments. He takes them and expounds upon them moving them from a simple external thing, do not commit adultery to a heart matter, if you lust for anothers wife, you have committed adultery already in your heart and are guilty, ect, ect, ect.

[visionary]

I wish others could see clearly what you are saying here,... that was excellent explaination.