Comparisons

[simchat_torah]

It was said elsewhere on this forum:
blaming christians for the death of Jews is like blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. generalisation is never a good thing
Then how about if I list a few "specifics" so I am no longer generalizing? Then we can see if these two 'generalizations' add up to be the same. Ya'all read this over then we'll share thoughts.....


367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people
who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue;
he referred to it as
"an act pleasing to God.

415: St.Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot,who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus."

418: St.Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue:
"If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's
fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable
disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it
deserves."

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target.
As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!"
12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade.
This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central
synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude
because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose
death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ's death set free..." thus began the slavery of Jewish people to Catholics in the 13th century.

1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries (hmmm.... sounds familiar, eh nazis?)

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.

1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans.
As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame.
They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews.
In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000;
Rue Brule...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned.
In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
(the list goes on and on and on... sad isn't it)

1543: Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to
Christianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Christians do with this ******, rejected race of Jews?
First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed...
They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in
which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach
any more...
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden
to the Jews...
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
(Hitler thanks Luther for the above passage in Mein Kampf)
This is just a 'taste' of the specifics I could list...
your thoughts?
-yafet

[Jasmine-FL]

Yafet what i mean is what does Mr John Average Guy who is a christian in the middle of the USA have to do with those who butchered the jews in other times, or who preached anti-semitism? Do you think most christians are anti-semitic or would kill jews if they had the chance to? most of them just want to be good people and carry on with their lives. I may not agree with christianity and a lot of its practices and beliefs but they do try to live out the principles of loving their neighbor and G-d even though they do it their own way since they ignore Torah. But because they are wrong doesn't mean they're bad people

Luv,
~J~

[muffler dragon]

Yafet what i mean is what does Mr John Average Guy who is a christian in the middle of the USA have to do with those who butchered the jews in other times, or who preached anti-semitism? Do you think most christians are anti-semitic or would kill jews if they had the chance to? most of them just want to be good people and carry on with their lives. I may not agree with christianity and a lot of its practices and beliefs but they do try to live out the principles of loving their neighbor and G-d even though they do it their own way since they ignore Torah. But because they are wrong doesn't mean they're bad people

Luv,
~J~
I won't try to speak on S_T's behalf, but I think I have a general idea as to why he brings things up.

A lot of the time people will wonder if the 'ends truly justifies the means'.

For those who don't know what that phrase means let me liken it to a situation that is pertinent.

With Christianity, does the fact that it was assisted politically and then held onto even to the point of murder justify that we have such a "G-dly" religion today?

Another way of putting it is: you know a tree by its fruit. When you see murder, strife, and division throughout the history of something; how much can it really divorce itself from its former legacy?

So, for all the 'good' that Christianity may or may not do now, does it cover the transgressions of the past?

And when we get to the point of showing people factual material of what has occurred, they are left with a decision: ignore and continue on, deny and try to search for support of said denial, or accept it and find something without such a legacy.

It's just like with my Grandma. I don't discuss anything that I am learning with her (nor my folks for that matter), because it's pointless. I could show her all the history of Christmas, but she would still celebrate it because it is such a pleasant season AND the "purpose" behind it has changed to something more "G-dly".

So, to answer some of your questions, Jasmine. G-d extends an amount of Grace to those who are ignorant of particular pieces of knowledge; BUT once that knowledge is expressed G-d will judge how the person responds and decides to address it.

m.d.

Sorry, Yafet, if I assumed you too much into this.

[AlikhnKwizad]

Shouldn't we make a distinction between the Christian RELIGION and people of faith??? Some "christians" helped save Jewish lives- other "christians" murdered them. Obviously the two were not acting through the same Spirit.

[muffler dragon]

Shouldn't we make a distinction between the Christian RELIGION and people of faith???

Sure, but where do you draw the line?

[quote=Nilahk81]Some "christians" helped save Jewish lives- other "christians" murdered them. Obviously the two were not acting through the same Spirit.

The same can be said of people of other faith (or athiestic) structures.

m.d.

[Pray4Isrel]

I wonder what Yeshua's outlook on all this is...

[Shimshon]

You won't get an argument from me about the atrocities inflicted on the Yehudim by Christianity. Yafet's list is quite acurate. However, being Yehudi myself I believe I can bring this up hopfully without seeming "anti-semetic". As I sure don't hate myself, nor my people. Yet, all one has to do to see a LONG list of atrocities commited against Elohim by ha yehudim is read the nevi'im, the prophets. I agree the things the church did to the yehudim and to the goyim are notably gross and abominable. Yet, in the same way in days of old did our people treat the prophets and those who did not adhere to the twisted halacha of the day.

And even today it goes on. The casting of blood relatives out of the community because they have been "tainted" by goyish blood.(mix-marriages) Or better yet the rejection and utter heretical spirit one receives from his achim and mishpocha for coming to faith in Moshiach. Still today the twisting of Torah is maligning the mishpocha of Elohim. BOTH are as guilty IMHO.

b,ahav
shimshon

[muffler dragon]

You won't get an argument from me about the atrocities inflicted on the Yehudim by Christianity. Yafet's list is quite acurate. However, being Yehudi myself I believe I can bring this up hopfully without seeming "anti-semetic". As I sure don't hate myself, nor my people. Yet, all one has to do to see a LONG list of atrocities commited against Elohim by ha yehudim is read the nevi'im, the prophets. I agree the things the church did to the yehudim and to the goyim are notably gross and abominable. Yet, in the same way in days of old did our people treat the prophets and those who did not adhere to the twisted halacha of the day.

I guess in my eyes, this would simply put everyone on level playing ground as far as sinning against G-d. Therefore, the excess that has been suffered by the Jewish people would be the deciding factor.

And even today it goes on. The casting of blood relatives out of the community because they have been "tainted" by goyish blood.(mix-marriages) Or better yet the rejection and utter heretical spirit one receives from his achim and mishpocha for coming to faith in Moshiach. Still today the twisting of Torah is maligning the mishpocha of Elohim. BOTH are as guilty IMHO.

b,ahav
shimshon

Btw, I am not giving my approval to any of the things you have noted. I just have a different point of view on it. As always, there are man-made additions that can cloud what would have been a pretty clear picture.

m.d.

[Sephania]

We would have a very small book indeed if all G-ds people were obedient and G-dly. We certainly wouldn't have need for the prophets, and there never would have been a diaspora, let alone the numerous times ( the last being 1900 years). Yeshua didn't exactly go up to the temple and walk amoung the Cohanim and say "Bless you my child" now did he? ;)

[Shimshon]

Therefore, the excess that has been suffered by the Jewish people would be the deciding factor.
Excessive suffering? I don't see it that way. Every person pays the price for not believing the Word Elohim spoke to the world thru the Yehudim. The Goyim die without Elohim suffering the wrath of Elohim because they knew not Avinu or his ways. The Yehudim are scattered and die without Elohim suffering the wrath of Elohim because they did not keep Avinu's halacha.

The only difference between the suffering of those in Darfor, or somalia, and my relatives who perished in the holocaust, or those who died at the hands of so called "christians" and those who died at the hands of so called "yehudim" kings is that we the Yehudim have been forewarned and foretold. And yet still remained blind to his Word. This excess of faithlessness is what I might see as a "deciding factor". Yet even then the fact that now the message has gone out to all the world to hear truly does put everyone on a level playing ground. Yehudim or Goyim there is no difference, no "deciding factor" that makes them more pitiable for "excesive suffering". Both Yehudi and Goy have now been given the same Truth. Now the whole world has a chance to become "children of Elohim" or suffer his wrath for rejecting the call to become chosen. The Yehudim were called. But not every Yehudi was "chosen". Now the whole world is called....and we know that not every Goyim will be 'chosen'. The playing field is level. All are called to the Truth or suffer the consequences. I believe Rav Sha'ul touched on this in Rom 11.

b,shalom
Shimshon

[muffler dragon]

Excessive suffering? I don't see it that way. Every person pays the price for not believing the Word Elohim spoke to the world thru the Yehudim. The Goyim die without Elohim suffering the wrath of Elohim because they knew not Avinu or his ways. The Yehudim are scattered and die without Elohim suffering the wrath of Elohim because they did not keep Avinu's halacha.

The only difference between the suffering of those in Darfor, or somalia, and my relatives who perished in the holocaust, or those who died at the hands of so called "christians" and those who died at the hands of so called "yehudim" kings is that we the Yehudim have been forewarned and foretold. And yet still remained blind to his Word. This excess of faithlessness is what I might see as a "deciding factor". Yet even then the fact that now the message has gone out to all the world to hear truly does put everyone on a level playing ground. Yehudim or Goyim there is no difference, no "deciding factor" that makes them more pitiable for "excesive suffering". Both Yehudi and Goy have now been given the same Truth. Now the whole world has a chance to become "children of Elohim" or suffer his wrath for rejecting the call to become chosen. The Yehudim were called. But not every Yehudi was "chosen". Now the whole world is called....and we know that not every Goyim will be 'chosen'. The playing field is level. All are called to the Truth or suffer the consequences. I believe Rav Sha'ul touched on this in Rom 11.

b,shalom
Shimshon
I hope that you're not alluding to the common thought of: "They're getting what they deserve, because of such and such disbelief."

[Shimshon]

I hope that you're not alluding to the common thought of: "They're getting what they deserve, because of such and such disbelief."
"They" = unfaithful disobedient Yehudim and/or Goyim....yes. all who reject Elohim and his Word will suffer his wrath.....regardless of nationlity, blood, or faith.

"They" = Yehudim. No no no.....no anti-semitic spirit in this semite. ;)

[simchat_torah]

Some wonderful points, yet.... the question is somewhat being ignored. Is it the same thing really when Christians kill Jews as when the Jews 'killed' Jesus? Are these two of "equal blame"? Can these be compared?


More thoughts to get the conversation rolling:
*Y'shua laid his life down. The Jews died unwillingly.
*There is controversy over who killed "jesus" (was it the romans? Jews? etc.) There is no controversy over who killed the Jews... christians did (in the name of jesus).
*Jesus was killed despite Jewish religious teachings. Jews are killed because of religious christian teachings.

This list could go on and on.
In light of the above points, is the blame the same?

-yafet

[Sephania]

What about before there ever was a Christian? Or is this just about Christianity? Not that I am defending one murderer, but there are many that sought to do harm and to eliminate HaShem's people way before Yeshua came in flesh.nu? I think this is what Shimshon is getting at, it is disobedience that does what it does, and like I have heard you, yafet ( in so many words), say before I believe, that HaShem allows not just good but evil. HaSatan can only touch those who G-d allows to be touched. All the tribes were not the same, they recieved differenct blessings, and also curses, as well as end time prophecies. The Levites may have stood with Moshe in front of the mountain but they were not all always pure, IE Nadav and Avihu.

What was done in the name of 'Christ' is something I was alluding to in my thread on 'Christ'.

There is a fine line and one must be able to descern it.

[Sephania]

Are these two of "equal blame"?

Besides, where are we commanded to assign blame? Wasn't that job given to the one who earned it?

Is it the same thing really when Christians kill Jews as when the Jews 'killed' Jesus?
I think the 'problem' with this question is the definition of a Christian, one who was born of the flesh or born of the spirit? One born of the Spirit would know this was wrong no matter who told them to do it. One born of the flesh, meaning by man made rituals that make them part of "G-ds family" are still in the flesh and can be possesed in the flesh.

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi Simchat Torah

Some wonderful points, yet.... the question is somewhat being ignored. Is it the same thing really when Christians kill Jews as when the Jews 'killed' Jesus? Are these two of "equal blame"? Can these be compared?
This is an excellent point and something I feel I can comment on. To blame an entire race for "Killing Jesus" is wrong, but there is the Roman spin to contend with, lets be truthful here, a number of clearly hellenic traditions went around claiming we are "Christ Killers" When it was a Roman who drove the nails in. And all that stuff about Pontious Pilate "Washing his hands" illustrates his guilt, Dont get me going on that part of it.

The Killing of Jews, because they are "Christ Killers" is a bit more clear, it is Jew hating pure and simple. And the quotes I read at the beginning of this thread are only a tiny part of a bigger litany of anti semitic lies that were spread down history. And some parts of Judaism wre nearly wiped out because of it.

I think you will find I am in total agreement with you, Only I wish not to express my full sentiments on this because My anger towards the anti semitic elements within certain hellenic traditions will inevitably cause argument which I wish to avoid, you are correct.

Shalom

Sophie

[Shimshon]

Is it the same thing really when Christians kill Jews as when the Jews 'killed' Jesus? Are these two of "equal blame"? Can these be compared?
To me, Yes. Is not murder murder? Wheather it is a physical act or heart intent (getting someone to do it for you), or the will of Elohim? (Jews killing Yeshua)

*Y'shua laid his life down. The Jews died unwillingly.
(implication = Not the Jews fault that Yeshua was put to death, Yeshua did it himself. Yet, the Jews died because they rejected the Truth spoken, so he punished them to exile to suffer at the hands of those they followed instead of Elohim.)

*There is controversy over who killed "jesus" (was it the romans? Jews? etc.) There is no controversy over who killed the Jews... christians did (in the name of jesus).
(implication = Not the Jews fault that Yeshua was put to death, it was the Goyim. Yet, christians are by far not the only killers of Jews in the world. Muslems have been doing it for centuries as well.)

*Jesus was killed despite Jewish religious teachings. Jews are killed because of religious christian teachings.
(implication = Not the Jews fault that Yeshua was killed, but Jew get blamed for it anyway. Yet it was because of religious teachings that Yeshua was hated and killed by the Jews. Because as stated in the first bullet, they rejected the Truth and were so punished to exile and destruction in the hands of those they DID follow. the Goyim.)

This list could go on and on.
In light of the above points, is the blame the same?

-yafetThe "implication" I am getting from these statements is that "Christians killed Jews unjustly because the Jews did nothing to deserve it." And "how is it the Jews fault when Yeshua laid his own life down, and to the Romans not the Jews. And since then Jews are falsly blamed for the death of Yeshua."

But, to answer the question again. Yes, Both are to blame (By Elohim) because of the fact of thier actions. Murder..Sin. Jews were only doing what was spoken by Elohim in the first place. Rebeling and making a way for the salvation of Elohim to cover all the world. The Cornerstone became a millstone to the Jews. And a Rock to the Goyim. And in the end, out of both having been crushed by Elohim will come those raised to life through faith Yeshua as One body, One mishpocha. IMHO one should not place one group over the other. Both are guilty of sin. Both need Yeshua. Jews aren't less guilty because they were Jewish. Some see them more guilty because they WERE Jewish and rejected anyway. But that is from hasatan. Jews did what Elohim predicted they would do. Reject, rebell and be scattered. And in the same way, Goyim did and do what Elohim prediceted they would do. Reject and rebel against the Living Elohim and Living Torah till the time of the end. Then out of both will come One new man. Kadosh L'Adonai. Holy to HaShem.

Why must people pit one work of Elohim against another jointly opperated work of Elohim? Why do people make distinctions about levels of guilt or blame. Is not every man a sinner worthy of death, and does Elohim make distinctions between people? Outside of Faith in Yeshua? Why is one to blame more than the other?

b,shalom
Shimshon

[simchat_torah]

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.



From the Letter of the Emperor Constantine to all those not present at the Council. (Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)


When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable, than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom[the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is, that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts, whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent, that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa, in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully the divine favour, and this truly divine command; for all which takes place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together, seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for destroying the evil designs of the devil, and thus causing faith, peace, and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my beloved brethren.

[simchat_torah]

Considering you parrot so much of Constantine's doctrines, why is it then you don't follow through with his instruction:
"not to have anything in common with the murderers of our Lord"


But instead, you cling to "messinaic JUDAISM"?

Why?

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hello Shimshon


(implication = Not the Jews fault that Yeshua was killed, but Jew get blamed for it anyway. Yet it was because of religious teachings that Yeshua was hated and killed by the Jews. Because as stated in the first bullet, they rejected the Truth and were so punished to exile and destruction in the hands of those they DID follow. the Goyim.)



I cannot figure this out quite frankly, I read all the constantinian spin, they say "The Sicari were classed as traitors thieves or liars, the Essenes dissapeared, The Scribes and Pahrisees were the out and out Christ haters".

But the Sicari were pro anything messianic, It meant Rome getting kicked out to them, so they did not hate Yshua, as for Iscariot, sorry there is some spin there, he was a wannabe. Different Jews of the time had Different opinions, How is it then that the constantinian spin machine managed to get the jews, all the jews branded as "Christ Killers". Well feeding them to the lions or crucifying them was not really all that effective I suppose. So hey just libel the lot of them and get them hated by future generations.

The Scribes and Pharisees were a mixed set up, some were Rome's puppets some were not, The Sicari were basically out to get Romans and Roman sympathisers. Something Yshua was not, Yshua was concerned about greater things.
The Essenes were the then Hasidim and never from what I know expressed any distate for Yshua's teachings.

There is something patently bizarre and fatalistic, I repeat that word ..Fatalistic... about branding an entire race of people for thousands of years after that event. And something irrational in claiming that every single Jew at the time conspired to kill Yshua.

So why should anyone within the Jewish community put up with lies that originated in the Roman Empire.

That is my opinion. and I dont feel I want to apologise for it. I am sick of anti semitism.

Sophie.

[Shimshon]

That is my opinion. and I dont feel I want to apologise for it. I am sick of anti semitism.

Sophie.
Sophie, I agree. Never once did I "MEAN" to imply that the whole race was guilty and blamable for the death of Moshiach. I think that notion formed in this thead by others who have this preconception that if your not rabbinically inclined as they are, you believe this way. Or that if you point out the faults and sins (so as to learn from them not so as to judge others) of the Jews you are "anti-semetic" ..even if you are a Jew. Go figure.

Sophie....nice to meet you, sorry your first exposure to me was this thread. I look forward to seeing more of you in other threads. :wave:

b,shalom
Shimshon

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hello Shimshon

Please dont be angry when you read what I have written, I genuinely find it hard to understand what you are trying to say. It reads to me, someone who has just started on these forums, that you are justifying anti semitism, and I find that very confusing, can you clarify.

Shalom

Sophie

Ooops Sorry I have just read your post. Thanks for clarifying, I will get back to you in a bit, I am just a bit confused. I will carefully read what you have said.

:)

Thank for the welcome :)

[Shimshon]

Hello Shimshon

Please dont be angry when you read what I have written, I genuinely find it hard to understand what you are trying to say. It reads to me, someone who has just started on these forums, that you are justifying anti semitism, and I find that very confusing, can you clarify.

Shalom

SophieMost definitly can clarify...Not angry at all with what you have written Sophie.

I believe the confusion comes from the fact I condone the judgment of Elohim on those in my race who sinned...and the world for that fact. I see no difference between Jew or Goy. Both have equal chance and place with Elohim. But some seem to be saying that the Jew has been unjustly judged, and all because of Yeshua. I don't see it that way. I think this whole world will be judged Jew and Goy alike for the faith or lack of faith they possessed. So, when some say

"Christians killed Jews unjustly because the Jews did nothing to deserve it."
I say, yes, christians should not be killing jews in the name of Elohim. But, on a seperate note. Jews are just as guilty of rejecting Moshiach as anyone else and THIS is why they suffer JUST LIKE THE GOY. Not more. Equally just to be judged for the sins they commit.


BUT, I believe i'm beginning to see the sticking point here. I am NOT justifying the killing of Jews BECAUSE 'some' had a part in the death of Yeshua. I probably should not be addressing my point in this thread. Since it seems the OP issue was "Christians killing Jews because of Yeshua". I am looking at it more broadly. And this is what more than likely is causing the confusion. Some see the suffering of the Jews as a punishment for the death of Yeshua. I do NOT. I see the suffering of my people as foretold by Elohim himself. That not all who were called were chosen. That his people would be scattered into all the nations as a punishment for rejecting and killing ELOHIM. In Spirit and eventually in person. AND that by this act EVERY person has a chance to be his child. Jew and Goy. I love my people....lol shesh.....but if you sin.....do you say. BUT I'M A JEW!!!! ....oy.
If I come across as anti semetic....it's because i'm being misunderstood.....some have more patients than others to deal with circumstances as these. I appreciate your patients :)

b,shalom
shimshon

[Sophie The Questioner]

Hi Shimson :wave:

Sophie, I agree. Never once did I "MEAN" to imply that the whole race was guilty and blamable for the death of Moshiach. I think that notion formed in this thead by others who have this preconception that if your not rabbinically inclined as they are, you believe this way. Or that if you point out the faults and sins (so as to learn from them not so as to judge others) of the Jews you are "anti-semetic" ..even if you are a Jew. Go figure.
I am not sure what the term "Rabinnically inclined" means, so please forgive me if I have misinterpereted what you are saying.

I know that in the past when trying to find out about my roots if anything, people have tended to pick up on small details that do not match some fixed standard, Whic has led to confusion on my part. Personally I have not found that here, so I feel more relaxed.

For me there is the history which I discussed on another website only a few days ago where I discussed people of a certain christian faith bieng quite bigoted towards my Grandparents in 1940's poland. And when I discussed this with an adherent of that christian faith. They found it hard to believe. I felt slightly unsettled because while I respect thier convictions I had to point out what historically took place.

What made it worse was when my granparents came to the UK they had more anti semitism to deal with.

So for me the "Christ Killer" debates are a toutchy subject. At the same time I can see what you mean (Not about the people here, I have yet to get to know them)
about ideas of specific doctrine. One comment in the FAQ section about the Netzarim puzzled me and when looking the Netzarim up, I was quite surprised to find a few familiar things. If they have reconstructed history some of it is pretty accurate if what I know is true to history.

It is obvious that there is a dischord between some of these messianic traditions :cry:

I feel like I am in a bit of a maze at the moment.

As for the issue of the "Christ Killer" libels, I will be honest I tend to feel a lot of it originated with hellenised traditions and ultimately constantine. I do concurr with Simchat Torah on that. There are strange accounts of things later in history such as the "Convieri" where the Sephardim were forced to convert to a certain Christian faith during the inquisition and thier hebrew observances were considered Herecy.

That is pretty unpleasant stuff.

I think I have read quite a lot of the history and can concurr with Simchat Torah on that, As I had a similar debate a few days ago, it is fresh in my mind.

I think in terms of this debate here, I just want to figure out why you say what you have. It is a curuous insight.

Thanks for clarifying what you have, it does help :)

Shalom

Sophie

[Sophie The Questioner]

I say, yes, christians should not be killing jews in the name of Elohim. But, on a seperate note. Jews are just as guilty of rejecting Moshiach as anyone else and THIS is why they suffer JUST LIKE THE GOY. Not more. Equally just to be judged for the sins they commit.
I understand now :)

Shalom

Sophie.

[Jasmine-FL]

Some wonderful points, yet.... the question is somewhat being ignored. Is it the same thing really when Christians kill Jews as when the Jews 'killed' Jesus? Are these two of "equal blame"? Can these be compared?
Yafet, :wave:
My point was not to say that they are equally responsible my points were only that we can't generalize because just like there were tons of Jews who had no idea what was even going on there are tons of Christians who have no clue what Christianity has done to the Jews i can't blame for Jew murder a Christian who has done no harm to any Jew and has lived his life trying hard to do the right thing and live a G-dly life. The second point i was trying to make is that it is not about Jews and Christians it is about good people and bad people and good people and bad people exist everywhere in the world irrespective of race or faith. Just like one being a Jew doesn't make him a good and G-dly person one being a Christian doesn't make him a bad person or a Jew hater.

Also shouldn't we forgive what Christians have done to our people? We're both converts to Judaism Yafet so we both love our people deeply so it is a great challenge to forgive Christians and not hate them but we have to find the will in G-d to do it. :hug:

Luv,
~J~

[Shimshon]

The second point i was trying to make is that it is not about Jews and Christians it is about good people and bad people and good people and bad people exist everywhere in the world irrespective of race or faith. Just like one being a Jew doesn't make him a good and G-dly person one being a Christian doesn't make him a bad person or a Jew hater.
EXACTLY!!!:clap:

[P_G]

Moderator review

[P_G]

Review finished

[Sephania]

Those who sin deserve the punishment. Those who live acording to Elohim deserve the reward. JEW OR GOY!. Blessed be the Elohim who forgives the sin and takes it away.
Amen and Amen! This is what the whole word teaches, yet so many are wearing "protective glasses" that they can't even see that.

Did not our Prophet Eliahu lament on how corupt the people had become? God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) hath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=683&version=kjv) not (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=kjv) cast away (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=683&version=kjv) his (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2992&version=kjv) which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=kjv) he foreknew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4267&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2228&version=kjv). Wot ye (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1492&version=kjv) not (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=kjv) what (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=kjv) the scripture (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1124&version=kjv) saith (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv) of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) Elias? (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2243&version=kjv) how (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5613&version=kjv) he maketh intercession (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1793&version=kjv) to God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) against (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2596&version=kjv) Israel, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2474&version=kjv) saying (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv), 11:3 Lord, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=kjv) they have killed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=615&version=kjv) thy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4675&version=kjv) prophets, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4396&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) digged down (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2679&version=kjv) thine (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4675&version=kjv) altars; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2379&version=kjv) and I (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2504&version=kjv) am left (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5275&version=kjv) alone, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3441&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) they seek (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2212&version=kjv) my (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3450&version=kjv) life. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5590&version=kjv) 11:4 But (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=235&version=kjv) what (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5101&version=kjv) saith (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=kjv) the answer of God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5538&version=kjv) unto him? (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) I have reserved (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2641&version=kjv) to myself (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1683&version=kjv) seven thousand (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2035&version=kjv) men, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=435&version=kjv) who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3748&version=kjv) have (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2578&version=kjv) not (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=kjv) bowed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2578&version=kjv) the knee (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1119&version=kjv) to the image of Baal. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=896&version=kjv) Is it right the punishment or reward to go to both good and bad? Waa it not HaShem who said HE and HE alone would punish those who kept not to him, who listened not to his prophets?

His thoughts are not ours, nor his ways. We see through the glass darkly because of sin, we can't
continue to look through the eyes of hate and revenge and blame, for we need to see not only through the eyes of love, but rightiousness.

It is all his plan, that was known to him from before Adam, how much he is long-suffering. :(

[visionary]

[His thoughts are not ours, nor his ways. We see through the glass darkly because of sin, we can't
continue to look through the eyes of hate and revenge and blame, for we need to see not only through the eyes of love, but rightiousness.

It is all his plan, that was known to him from before Adam, how much he is long-suffering. :(
[/size] [/color][/font]Amen :thumbsup: even in the face of those who continually throw evil, malicious, violent, blind, foolish, trashy, lies and twisting of scripture up for fodder food for the masses.

[Sephania]

If anything can be learned from all this is that those forcing any Yehudi to stop following Hashems laws, and celebrating his Holy Days and his Salvation were of the devil , for it is only he who does not want anyone to follow G-ds laws. He is the one who doesn't want anyone reminded that it was only One G-d who created everything, in six days and made a holy day each and every week just to celibrate that and to acknowledge him for it.

Yes, HaSatan hid behind the false banner of "Christ" to do his dirty work, but remember HaShem allowed it. For reasons we can't fuly comprehend. But we know what they did they did not do in the name of the True Yeshua, for if we know Yeshua we know the truth,the truth was not found in them.

[visionary]

If anything can be learned from all this is that those forcing any Yehudi to stop following Hashems laws, and celebrating his Holy Days and his Salvation were of the devil , for it is only he who does not want anyone to follow G-ds laws. He is the one who doesn't want anyone reminded that it was only One G-d who created everything, in six days and made a holy day each and every week just to celibrate that and to acknowledge him for it.

Yes, HaSatan hid behind the false banner of "Christ" to do his dirty work, but remember HaShem allowed it. For reasons we can't fuly comprehend. But we know what they did they did not do in the name of the True Yeshua, for if we know Yeshua we know the truth,the truth was not found in them.
HaSatan will hid behind the false banner of "Christ" and HaShem allows it to see if the every elect notice the difference. It will get so that if it were possible, HaSatan will deceive the very elect. The cleansing, is removal of all unrighteousness from our hearts and minds, and that can not be done without unrighteousness being explosed to the light. It reminds me of what Yeshua said about "when you see the abomination of desolation"...now that takes spiritual eyes.

[EchadHashem]

Very interesting thread. I am continually amazed by the question "Who killed Moshiach?" Moshiach laid down His life. PERIOD. To suggest that anyone was responsible is to deny the power of Moshiach. A non-Messianic Jewish friend of mine is confounded by the same issue...He questions why I serve a God that he could kill. Doesn't sound like a very powerful God. The question does incite anti-semitic and/or anti-christian feelings however. For this reason I find the question disingenuous. It only serves to divide.

I believe that the Tanach states very clearly that the suffering of a Tzaddik would atone for the sins of Israel (this idea is well expounded by our rabbis in times past). Moshiach WILLINGLY took that role since Israel was His portion....He was responsible for them. Moshiach said, "If they don't praise me the very stones will cry out" (paraphrase mine). Indeed, His atoning blood was applied to us when we said, "His blood be upon us!" It was not possible for the coming of the Moshaich to atone for the sins of Israel to work out any differently....As He said, I come to the House of Israel First. If we wouldn't have claimed His blood, the stones would have for us.

All things work together for those who serve YHVH.

Indeed, all who violate the Torah are accountable to HaShem...including the commandment not to Kill. Both the Goyim and Israel will be held accountable in the great day of YHVH for who they have murdered. However, the blood of Moshiach will be what atones for both Goyim and Israel, not what convicts them.

Side note: While I take no part in the vitriol of the "Easter document" I am struck by the fact that the disagreement was over the changing of the Passover from the Torah appointed time to a calendar system (Sedar Olam). It is certainly time to return to HaShem and His appointed Days.

Shalom.

[Sephania]

Very interesting thread. I am continually amazed by the question "Who killed Moshiach?" Moshiach laid down His life. PERIOD. To suggest that anyone was responsible is to deny the power of Moshiach. A non-Messianic Jewish friend of mine is confounded by the same issue...He questions why I serve a God that he could kill. Doesn't sound like a very powerful God. The question does incite anti-semitic and/or anti-christian feelings however. For this reason I find the question disingenuous. It only serves to divide.

I believe that the Tanach states very clearly that the suffering of a Tzaddik would atone for the sins of Israel (this idea is well expounded by our rabbis in times past). Moshiach WILLINGLY took that role since Israel was His portion....He was responsible for them. Moshiach said, "If they don't praise me the very stones will cry out" (paraphrase mine). Indeed, His atoning blood was applied to us when we said, "His blood be upon us!" It was not possible for the coming of the Moshaich to atone for the sins of Israel to work out any differently....As He said, I come to the House of Israel First. If we wouldn't have claimed His blood, the stones would have for us.

All things work together for those who serve YHVH.

Indeed, all who violate the Torah are accountable to HaShem...including the commandment not to Kill. Both the Goyim and Israel will be held accountable in the great day of YHVH for who they have murdered. However, the blood of Moshiach will be what atones for both Goyim and Israel, not what convicts them.

Side note: While I take no part in the vitriol of the "Easter document" I am struck by the fact that the disagreement was over the changing of the Passover from the Torah appointed time to a calendar system (Sedar Olam). It is certainly time to return to HaShem and His appointed Days.

Shalom.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[visionary]

Side note: While I take no part in the vitriol of the "Easter document" I am struck by the fact that the disagreement was over the changing of the Passover from the Torah appointed time to a calendar system (Sedar Olam). It is certainly time to return to HaShem and His appointed Days.

Shalom.But on this part of your posting I would like to learn more.
Could you please expound a little more on the different between Torah appointed and Sedar Olam...If it is necessary maybe start a new thread so not to derail this one???? :scratch: