Is it right?

[Sephania]

For a woman to read the Torah? What I mean is not from a personal Bible, but from the actual Torah scroll in Synagogue? You know, like being called up to read?

[debi b]

That really depends on who you ask ;)

Mishna The Second Division: Appointed Times Megillah

4:4
A He who reads in the Torah should read no fewer than three verses.

B He may not read to the translator more than a single verse [at a time, so the translator will not err]

So, the idea is that the Torah should be read in Hebrew and a translator will translate to the people. What if there are no men that can read in Hebrew? Unfortunately I have seen people who will not read Torah if there is not a minion. Is it better to have a minion than study Adonai's word?

[CelineDion]

Im sure G-d wouldnt make a difference there. All should be able to read His Holy Word. For he is no respector of persons as stated in His Word.

[Henaynei]

the reason women do not read from the scroll is that she is tamei for half the month - for her to touch the scroll and the things of the scroll would, by the commands of the scroll, make the scroll and those items tamei and unfit for use.....

do you know any MJ shul where the family purity laws are kept or even strongly encouraged??

Why would we choose to willfully defile the scroll on which are written the commands to avoid such acts?

THIS is why the orthodox so often rescue scrolls from MJ synagogues - to avoid then being or because they have been rendered unclean.

[Henaynei]

Im sure G-d wouldnt make a difference there. All should be able to read His Holy Word. For he is no respector of persons as stated in His Word.:) we all can certainly read His word - but reading for the scroll is different :)

[Shimshon]

the reason women do not read from the scroll is that she is tamei for half the month - for her to touch the scroll and the things of the scroll would, by the commands of the scroll, make the scroll and those items tamei and unfit for use.....

Half the month? I thought it was seven days? Yet, do not men become 'tamei'? Why is it o.k. for men to enter a mikvah and be seen clean enough to touch the scroll and not for a woman? Even if she is tamei for half the month. Again I would have to ask why men can enter a mikvah and be cleansed enough to touch the scroll and yet not the woman?

b,shalom
Shimshon

[Sephania]

Shimshon, according to Torah it is seven days. The Rabbis added on 7 more 'white days'. I always wondered how it was that Miriam took Yeshua to the temple on the eighth day if she still would have been unclean. :scratch: that part of the oral law must not have been in effect then?

[Sephania]

the reason women do not read from the scroll is that she is tamei for half the month - for her to touch the scroll and the things of the scroll would, by the commands of the scroll, make the scroll and those items tamei and unfit for use.....

do you know any MJ shul where the family purity laws are kept or even strongly encouraged??

Why would we choose to willfully defile the scroll on which are written the commands to avoid such acts?

THIS is why the orthodox so often rescue scrolls from MJ synagogues - to avoid then being or because they have been rendered unclean.
No women read?, or you think no women should read? I meant in general, not MJ specific, but you say that woman don't or shouldn't read from the Torah Scroll?

[Henaynei]

Half the month? I thought it was seven days? it is a minimum of 5 days for flow + 7 clean or white days before the mikvah and again being tahor :) - usually a total of about 14 days

Yet, do not men become 'tamei'? Why is it o.k. for men to enter a mikvah and be seen clean enough to touch the scroll and not for a woman? Even if she is tamei for half the month. yes, men can become tamei - throught noctournal emissions and touching that which is unclean - and yes, after the commended separation period a mikveh signifies purity/tahor. BUT while tamei the men can not touch the scroll either.

Again I would have to ask why men can enter a mikvah and be cleansed enough to touch the scroll and yet not the woman?

b,shalom
Shimshon Well, it is a modesty thing whose goal is to respect the privacy of and honor the women - when a woman is or is not tamei (that is, is or is not having her cycle or waiting out the white days) would become general knowledge of every person at the shul, it meant to be something private between her and her husbsand. When she was tamei she would have to tell so that she was not called up to Torah, thus when she was called up to torah it would be known that she was tahor. In addition, many women are subject to sopratic bleeding during some months and then too she must separate and wait the white days AND many women (most) can't tell with 100% certainty what day and time they may start their flow, thus they may have touched the scroll while their flow has started and not know it, then discover it and have to tell the rabbi and congregation she had unwittingly defiled the communities scroll.

Now let me ask..... why, when there is no prohibition on any one at any time having full access to all of HaShem's word through reading their own bibles - why is it SO important for women to insist that they step into yet another role of the men and crush yet another marker of male authority, responsibility and community building?? Why must we insist on having everything they have as if what HaShem has given us is inadequate??:scratch: :sigh:

[CelineDion]

So just because i have a period and guys dont i cant read the scroll? Well i guess thats why I now read the Bible.

[Henaynei]

So just because i have a period and guys dont i cant read the scroll? Well i guess thats why I now read the Bible. :) it is also to reinforce the position and responsibility of the men before HaShem and to their community - strong men, strongly committed to HaShem and their community, secure in thier roles AS men, make better fathers and husbands ;) and make for happier wives and families ;)

[CelineDion]

but there is a difference in men bieng head of the home and stomping on you head. I think we dont seperate that enough and there are alot more broken people in our church than you think. A man gets mad and beats his wife to pieces but that okay cause she should have listened right? Not

[Sephania]

it is a minimum of 5 days for flow + 7 clean or white days before the mikvah and again being tahor :) - usually a total of about 14 days

yes, men can become tamei - throught noctournal emissions and touching that which is unclean - and yes, after the commended separation period a mikveh signifies purity/tahor. BUT while tamei the men can not touch the scroll either.

Well, it is a modesty thing whose goal is to respect the privacy of and honor the women - when a woman is or is not tamei (that is, is or is not having her cycle or waiting out the white days) would become general knowledge of every person at the shul, it meant to be something private between her and her husbsand. When she was tamei she would have to tell so that she was not called up to Torah, thus when she was called up to torah it would be known that she was tahor. In addition, many women are subject to sopratic bleeding during some months and then too she must separate and wait the white days AND many women (most) can't tell with 100% certainty what day and time they may start their flow, thus they may have touched the scroll while their flow has started and not know it, then discover it and have to tell the rabbi and congregation she had unwittingly defiled the communities scroll.

Now let me ask..... why, when there is no prohibition on any one at any time having full access to all of HaShem's word through reading their own bibles - why is it SO important for women to insist that they step into yet another role of the men and crush yet another marker of male authority, responsibility and community building?? Why must we insist on having everything they have as if what HaShem has given us is inadequate??:scratch: :sigh:
The Role of Women in the Synagogue



To understand the limited role of women in synagogue (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/synagogue.htm) life, it is important to understand the nature of commandments (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/commandments.htm) in Judaism and the separation of men and women.

Judaism recognizes that it is mankind's nature to rebel against authority; thus, one who does something because he is commanded to is regarded with greater merit than one who does something because he chooses to. The person who refrains from pork because it is a commandment has more merit than the person who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste. In addition, the commandments, burdens, obligations, that were given to the Jewish people (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/people.htm) are regarded as a privilege, and the more commandments one is obliged to observe, the more privileged one is. Because women are not obligated to perform certain commandments, their observance of those commandments does not "count" for group purposes. Thus, a woman's voluntary attendance at daily worship services (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/services.htm) does not count toward a minyan (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/minyan.htm) (the 10 people necessary to recite certain prayers), a woman's voluntary recitation of certain prayers does not count on behalf of the group (thus women cannot lead services), and a woman's voluntary reading from the Torah (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/readings.htm) does not count towards the community's obligation to read from the Torah.

[Henaynei]

but there is a difference in men bieng head of the home and stomping on you head. I think we dont seperate that enough and there are alot more broken people in our church than you think. A man gets mad and beats his wife to pieces but that okay cause she should have listened right? NotThe Torah service is the remnant of and analog for the Temple service, which HaShem commanded be only done by men - how is having the men only reading from the Torah scroll stomping on someone's head ?:)

[Talmidah]

For a woman to read the Torah? What I mean is not from a personal Bible, but from the actual Torah scroll in Synagogue? You know, like being called up to read?
Unfortunately, at the synagogue I attend (Conservative), women are given aliyot. However, I have spoken with both the Rabbi and the Chazzan and they know not to call me up for an aliyah. I just don't feel that a woman has to be called up to the Torah. I mean, its not like women are not allowed to study....study of Torah is highly encouraged for everyone. Obviously I can't tell other women what to do, but personally I just don't feel its right and can't wait until I am able to belong to a synagogue more in line with how I feel on issues like this.

[Sephania]

Tal, would you elaborate as to why you don't feel it is right?

[CelineDion]

I mean i guess its not stomping on someones head but why can a man read the Torah and a women cant. In my church women can read from Genesis to Revelation. We arent over the men we just minister to them. I dont see whats wrong with that. But i guess Im upset over what i see in churches where the men are terrible to the woman just because they are "over" them therefore they feel as if they can beat them, put them down and all kinds of other things. My friend who is 48 is treated terrible by her husband. He wont speak to her in church nor sit with her unless he wants her to do something. I cant stand him. She had so much potential and she wasted it on him.

[Henaynei]

I mean i guess its not stomping on someones head but why can a man read the Torah and a women cant. In my church women can read from Genesis to Revelation. We arent over the men we just minister to them. I dont see whats wrong with that. But i guess Im upset over what i see in churches where the men are terrible to the woman just because they are "over" them therefore they feel as if they can beat them, put them down and all kinds of other things. My friend who is 48 is treated terrible by her husband. He wont speak to her in church nor sit with her unless he wants her to do something. I cant stand him. She had so much potential and she wasted it on him. Celine, I could be wrong but I get the impression from your post above that I may have confused you..... please forgive me if I have.....

When we talk about women reading from the Trorah we are not talking about them reading from the Pentatuch/first 5 books of the bible, we are talking about them reading from the holy Torah Scroll, a very large parchment scroll that is a handcopied form of the first 5 books - in Hebrew, that is kept in the Ark in the synagogue and is part of a particular portion of a Jewish service.

Women are in NO WAY prevented from reading any part of the bible - in fact they are **encouraged** to read all of HaShem's word, as much as any man :clap:

[Talmidah]

Tal, would you elaborate as to why you don't feel it is right?Hi Zayit :wave: ,
I think Henaynei pretty much summed up how I feel on this issue, especially here:

Now let me ask..... why, when there is no prohibition on any one at any time having full access to all of HaShem's word through reading their own bibles - why is it SO important for women to insist that they step into yet another role of the men and crush yet another marker of male authority, responsibility and community building?? Why must we insist on having everything they have as if what HaShem has given us is inadequate??:scratch: :sigh:

[visionary]

Ask any wise man and he will admit that the woman standing behind him is the reason he rose to the position he is at today. While our female minds can run circles around the mind of man, it is the stedfastness and single mindedness of man that keeps consistency and continuity to the community and society at large focused.

[Sophie The Questioner]

Zayit :)

For a woman to read the Torah? What I mean is not from a personal Bible, but from the actual Torah scroll in Synagogue? You know, like being called up to read?
I wonder if you could exlain why it is wrong according to your understanding.
because I think Gd is not fatalist, so if there is something potentially fatalistic,
such as the view that women being called to read being wrong, An explanation as to how this is so would be helpful

Sophie.

[Sephania]

Shalom Sophie! Welcome to the forums! :wave:

In answer to your question I must say that I think you took my OP in the wrong way. I believe it is Henaynei and Talmidah who think it wrong for a woman to do this. I believe that as long as the congregation fully abides by niddah then there should be no problem and that the ratio of men to women aliyah is of say, 30/70 W/M. I don't think this would be considered as taking away from the men. Instead in a Messianic community where I have seen not many men wanting to do this, it perhaps does provoke them to jelousy to see a woman is able to do this thing and this urges them on to take up this role.

Many within the Messianic community, if Jewish before coming to know Messiah were only nominal in their Hebrew upbringing. Some stopping at Bar Mitzvah, and most only going a little further, so it is not something they are trained up into, to step into automatically.

[Shimshon]

Now let me ask..... why, when there is no prohibition on any one at any time having full access to all of HaShem's word through reading their own bibles - why is it SO important for women to insist that they step into yet another role of the men and crush yet another marker of male authority, responsibility and community building?? Why must we insist on having everything they have as if what HaShem has given us is inadequate??:scratch: :sigh:Hinaynei, Todah rabba :) I can very much appreciate the "privacy" issue you mention. And I also can appreciate the issue of a "mans" role as opposed to the "womans" role as it deals with authority in society, congregation, and family. Yet, I personally think their should be a balance. And I don't see it as the practice of Elohim giving it to Man who in turn is supposed to disceminate it to the Woman. I believe Elohim gave an equal yet diverse role to play. Sort of like the G-dhead. Av Ben Ruach HaKodesh. One yet having different functions. No the Ruach should not be seen as HaAv. But One in HaAv. The authority comes from One. Avinu. But ALL three display the authority of HaAv at any given time. The Ruach....is said to have "power". The Moshiach Yeshua is said to have "power". All are authorized and equiped to do the work of Avinu.

The same with Avinu, man and woman. Avinu gives us all authority and power to do his will. Man or Woman makes no difference. Both are equal in the relationship with Avinu. Power, authority, nor inheretance is give from Avinu "through" the man to the woman. And my proof text for this is;

1 Peter 3:7 You husbands, likewise, conduct your married lives with understanding. Although your wife may be weaker physically, you should respect her as a fellow-heir of the gift of Life. If you don't, your prayers will be blocked.

ouch!! If you don't Avinu will not hear you?!?!

Again Achotim, I in no way say you should "dress as men, act as men, try to be men". You are from us but are not "UNDER" us. You are our equal. Just as a younger brother is equal in position to receive the same inheritance as the older one. And just as a youngest sister is just as worthy to receive the inheritance as the oldest son. All are equal in our diversity. All are seen as One in accordance to the "gift of life". The only difference is our nature...'weak, strong, small, tall, ......Both should uphold the other in every way. Were one is weak the other should be strong. Where one is able to sweep the floors, the other is able to sweep the ceiling. Both work together for the glory of Elohim. Not one under another. But both equal in diversity. Echad, a compound unity.

b,ahava
shimshon

[Sophie The Questioner]

Shalom Zayit :wave:

I didnt think you were taking fatalistic line :) , What you say now seems about right in my expereince too. You do raise a very good point about those who previous to knowing the messiah stopping at Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah for example.

One thing I have noticed are the numerous subtle differences in perception between those who come to know the Messiah from say an orthodox background, and those who were born into messianic Judaism or came to it earlier on in life. Coming to know the messiah in this context of relearning is rather like re-discovering things that are familiar I guess.

Fascinating, I have never fully seen it from that perspective before :)

Shalom aleichem

Sophie :)

[Sephania]

This picture popped into my mind while reading shimshons post, a group of fish when they are "schooling".

Here I think this explains it beautifully:

One of the most beautiful things to watch underwater is a group of fish swimming in unison, changing directions in an instant, yet never colliding with each other.
It is also believed that swimming close together reduces friction and allows fish to conserve energy.
http://www.borneo.com.au/diving/reeffish3.jpg

[Sephania]

Shalom Zayit :wave:

I didnt think you were taking fatalistic line :) , What you say now seems about right in my expereince too. You do raise a very good point about those who previous to knowing the messiah stopping at Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah for example.

One thing I have noticed are the numerous subtle differences in perception between those who come to know the Messiah from say an orthodox background, and those who were born into messianic Judaism or came to it earlier on in life. Coming to know the messiah in this context of relearning is rather like re-discovering things that are familiar I guess.

Fascinating, I have never fully seen it from that perspective before :)

Shalom aleichem

Sophie :)

Yes, it is true, we all come to Him wearing different "glasses", we are what we have learned and experienced and are taught and what we buy into. Yes, many things we need to re-learn, and only the Truth can teach us that, for He said, if you seek me, you will find me. :)

Shalom!