Is this contradictory?

[By Grace]

Can knowledge (e.g., that an idol is nothing in the world) relieve us of the obligation to obey a commandment (e.g., don't eat food sacrificed to idols)?


1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one.

1Co 8:5 For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;"

1Co 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

1Co 8:7 However, that knowledge isn't in all men. But some, with consciousness of the idol until now, eat as of a thing sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God. For neither, if we don't eat, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.




Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things:

Act 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality, from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you. Farewell."


If we know that idols have no power, and that food sacrificed to them is not truly affected by the act of the sacrifice, so that our faith is not defiled by eating the food, does that mean that knowledge can relieve one of the responsibility to obey a commandment?

TIA,

[Shimshon]

If we know that idols have no power, and that food sacrificed to them is not truly affected by the act of the sacrifice, so that our faith is not defiled by eating the food, does that mean that knowledge can relieve one of the responsibility to obey a commandment?
No. Your not "relieved" of the responsibility to obey. You are not "justified" to do what is defined as sin. You are "sanctified" to walk in the halacha defined before the world began. Holiness, Kadosh.

If you know the Adversary has no power over you, and that you are not affected by the Evil one because the Spirit in you guides and protects you from all his ways, so that you remain faithful, does that mean you can live as the unfaithful, because you have faith. G-d forbid!

If you love G-d so much why would you eat food offered to another god? Not to mention according to Torah we should not be eating with complete Goyish pagans at all. Even the Emissaries defined kashrut mitzvot for the goyim coming to Messiah. So we could eat together and begin to grow together. If it was o.k. to eat food offered to idols why did the beit din in Yerushalayim define just the opposite in Acts 15?

b,Shalom
Shimshon

[By Grace]

If it was o.k. to eat food offered to idols why did the beit din in Yerushalayim define just the opposite in Acts 15?

b,Shalom
Shimshon
This, I think, is basically my question. In 1Cor, he goes on to say that the issue is to not eat the meat in front of someone of weaker faith--not b/c eating the meat is wrong in and of itself, but b/c the person with weaker faith shouldn't eat the meat, since their faith is weak. Does this mean that someone with stronger faith could eat the meat, at least, so long as they did it in a way that didn't tempt someone of weaker faith? Does this mean that, as your faith grows stronger, you are exempt from this particular instruction?

1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God. For neither, if we don't eat, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better.

1Co 8:9 But be careful that by no means does this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to the weak.

1Co 8:10 For if a man sees you who have knowledge sitting in an idol's temple, won't his conscience, if he is weak, be emboldened to eat things sacrificed to idols?

1Co 8:11 And through your knowledge, he who is weak perishes, the brother for whose sake Messiah died.

1Co 8:12 Thus, sinning against the brothers, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Messiah.

1Co 8:13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will eat no meat forevermore, that I don't cause my brother to stumble.


And one more, slightly related question: Is there a Torah mitzvah that forbids eating meat sacrificed to idols, or was this just a guideline provided for the newly converted Gentiles?

TIA,

[Shimshon]

Does this mean that someone with stronger faith could eat the meat, at least, so long as they did it in a way that didn't tempt someone of weaker faith? Does this mean that, as your faith grows stronger, you are exempt from this particular instruction?


not exempt, you fulfill it. I believe this way of thinking is similar to the notion that Yeshua "abolished" the law. He didn't make you exempt from it. He made you fulfilled in it. As your faith grows you become more "knowledgable", thus the more you grow the more you fulfill Torah. Not the more you grow the more Torah becomes exempt from you. In the drasha given by Shaul in 1 cor he makes the distinction that the one more knowledgeable should not cause those less to stumble. So much so that they should stop eating meat altogether if it makes a weaker one stumble. I don't see this midrash ending up with, "but, if a weaker one is not around your freedom reigns". I don' t see this as the point, but the abstinance of such freedom in the name of love. Actually, if you notice he says this "freedom" is sin if you let it lead others to sin.

1Co 8:12 Thus, sinning against the brothers, and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Messiah.




And one more, slightly related question: Is there a Torah mitzvah that forbids eating meat sacrificed to idols, or was this just a guideline provided for the newly converted Gentiles?
TIA,Vayikra (levi)
19:4 "'Do not turn to idols, and do not cast metal gods for yourselves; I am ADONAI your God. 26:1 "'You are not to make yourselves any idols, erect a carved statue or a standing-stone, or place any carved stone anywhere in your land in order to bow down to it. I am ADONAI your God.

[By Grace]

Thanks, Shimshon. I agree with you, but I'm trying to figure out in my head how to explain that POV to others.

Can you eat meat sacrificed to idols without bowing down to them? If it's not specifically forbidden in Torah, then perhaps this isn't an issue of Torah-observance at all. Maybe it's more the appearance that is a concern here, rather than Torah itself. Just a thought...

[Shimshon]

Can you eat meat sacrificed to idols without bowing down to them? .To "bow down" means to serve. By eating the meat you are serving the idol. The meat was "sacrificed to" the idol, in whom you are serving by eating it's sacrifice. i.e bowing down to it. We are not free to serve other gods. Who are not gods at all but dead things.

So you realizing it is a dead idol can eat the meat if you were going to die from starvation. Because you know it is actually just food sacrificed to a non-god. And as a blessing from G-d it is going to keep you alive. But, if a weaker brother sees you doing so.....would you die to save the other from stumbling? I bet Sha'ul would say, "Yes"!.

Serve;
c : to comply with the commands or demands of :
e : to perform the duties of
7 a : to answer the needs of
8 : to treat or act toward in a specified way


However in america I know of no food that is "sacrificed to idols" in the custom done as it was in days of old. Now when it comes to food that has been altered and infested with unkosher substances, and sacrificed to the idols of capitalism. i.e. genetically altered, unkosher food sold (sacrificed) to monopolized mega food-chain stores for our consumption. All be it after we give the offering to it's altar (cash register). This might not be all to far off. But that's for another thread.

b,shalom
shimshon

[koilias]

However in america I know of no food that is "sacrificed to idols" in the custom done as it was in days of old. Now when it comes to food that has been altered and infested with unkosher substances, and sacrificed to the idols of capitalism. i.e. genetically altered, unkosher food sold (sacrificed) to monopolized mega food-chain stores for our consumption. All be it after we give the offering to it's altar (cash register). This might not be all to far off. But that's for another thread.
I would say this might be so even if we were communists! :D

But Yeshua derided the opinions of the "sons of light" (aka the Essenes) who taught complete economic separation from the "mammon of unrighteousness" (any commerce with those outside the sect). Yeshua praises the "unjust steward" because he showed his savvy in matters of profane things. Yeshua, like the Rabbis, believed that if one was wise with the profane things, one could then become trustworthy in handling the divine things, so no economic separation from the world is encouraged.

Still, one should not serve mammon. Treat every penny as if it were G-d's.

[koilias]

Does this mean that someone with stronger faith could eat the meat, at least, so long as they did it in a way that didn't tempt someone of weaker faith? Does this mean that, as your faith grows stronger, you are exempt from this particular instruction?


Shalom Jill...

Keep in mind that in Rabbinic Judaism it is not the meat itself that imparts impurity, but the breaking of the commandment. If one is not aware that the meat one is eating has been sacrificed to an idol, one is ok. Same thing applies to one who "doesn't know that the idol is real" . The meat itself does not impart "uncleanness", it is the knowledge. BUT, if another's knowledge is that idols DO exist, then seeing you eat the meat, may, G-d forbid, lead him to think that it is then ok to worship idols. Your conscience is "strong" because it doesn't have knowledge, but your neighbor's is "weak" because he does have knowledge! It is in the knowledge where the sin resides.


Another relevant point:

It is not that Paul is ACTUALLY advocating for the position that all meat is ok because idols don't exist. Paul is picking the most liberal example in order to make the starkest point--that EVEN if this were the case, what he is about to say will show how this kind of logic will result in a bad outcome...Paul is playing the "devil's advocate"--a very familiar way to argue in Halakhic discourse. This is sometimes called the "How much more" ("kal vaHomer") technique. If this causes your neighbor to stumble, "how much more" should you be wary of eating any meat!

[By Grace]

I would say this might be so even if we were communists! :D

But Yeshua derided the opinions of the "sons of light" (aka the Essenes) who taught complete economic separation from the "mammon of unrighteousness" (any commerce with those outside the sect). Yeshua praises the "unjust steward" because he showed his savvy in matters of profane things. Yeshua, like the Rabbis, believed that if one was wise with the profane things, one could then become trustworthy in handling the divine things, so no economic separation from the world is encouraged.

Still, one should not serve mammon. Treat every penny as if it were G-d's.
Thanks, koilias. I hadn't thought of this topic in that way. It's a good point. And your explanation of the kal vaHomer technique helps me understand this passage better, though I'm not sure I could explain it to someone else. I'll just keep this thread bookmarked!

I just figured out what your screenname means! In my head, I kept pronouncing it "koalas", but now I know better. What made you pick that verse?

[koilias]

Thanks, koilias. I hadn't thought of this topic in that way. It's a good point. And your explanation of the kal vaHomer technique helps me understand this passage better, though I'm not sure I could explain it to someone else. I'll just keep this thread bookmarked!

I just figured out what your screenname means! In my head, I kept pronouncing it "koalas", but now I know better. What made you pick that verse?
Perhaps you could explain the kal vaHomer this way in the passage:

"If EVEN the knowledge that idols are not real gods (which is a good thing) may lead others to worship them,

How Much More should I be wary of ANY association with idolatry."

Skip the meat issue and concentrate on the heart of the matter. I know that this logic sounds kind of convoluted at first...but it is teachable. To understand Paul you have to become well versed in Rabbinic argumentation, unfortunately.


My screen-name is based on the mystery of my favorite verse (although please feel free to call me Eric). "If anyone thirsts may he come to me a drink. As it is written (where?), 'Streams from his innards (koilias) will flow to living water.'" No one knows what verse Yeshua is quoting. The quest for me to discover what verse has led me in itself to plumb further the character of Yeshua, his reading of scripture, his relationship to his Father, his identity, his mission, his revelation.

This is a deeply mystical teaching because it is based on the Song of Songs, I believe. The verse Yeshua is rewording is Songs 4.15 "A garden stream, a well of living waters and flowing streams from Lebanon." Only Yeshua, I believe, changes "Lebanon" to "Levavo", which means "his heart" (innermost being, in Hebrew, "heart" is the seat of thought). So it is a single key which turns the Song of Songs into a mystery love poem about Yisrael and her Meshiach. It is thus an entry point into the very heart, the 'innards', of Yeshua.

By the way, see my avatar up there! That's a photo of the Banias waterfall, which flows from the foot of Mt. Hermon, a spring from Lebanon.

[By Grace]

Thanks, Eric! For some reason this argument of Paul's is still eluding me--I need to ponder it a while...

That is so intriguing about your screenname! How long did it take you to figure all that out? I'm always fascinated by your contributions to our discussions.

[koilias]

Thanks, Eric! For some reason this argument of Paul's is still eluding me--I need to ponder it a while...

That is so intriguing about your screenname! How long did it take you to figure all that out? I'm always fascinated by your contributions to our discussions.
I've been trying to figure it out since I first began delving into understanding the structure of Yohannan's gospel about four years ago. Early in my studies of the literary structure of Revelation, I realized that Yohannan's gospel was also related to Jewish mysticism, for which the use of the Creation Story, the Theophanies and the Song of Songs is important. Yohannan follows the thematic pattern of the seven-days of Genesis One for liturgical reasons, whereas Revelation uses it to structure an ornate apocalypse. Here in this verse, Yeshua's words in the temple are very intriguing, especially because of the occassion of the water drawing ceremony on Simchat Torah (lit. "Torah Happiness"). That Yeshua should tie the Song of Songs with Simchat Torah is an interesting topic in itself. Today, Jews begin reading Genesis Chapter One on Simchat Torah, so there is a confluence of intriguing mystical themes around that day.

[chunkofcoal]

I've been trying to figure it out since I first began delving into understanding the structure of Yohannan's gospel about four years ago. Early in my studies of the literary structure of Revelation, I realized that Yohannan's gospel was also related to Jewish mysticism, for which the use of the Creation Story, the Theophanies and the Song of Songs is important. Yohannan follows the thematic pattern of the seven-days of Genesis One for liturgical reasons, whereas Revelation uses it to structure an ornate apocalypse. Here in this verse, Yeshua's words in the temple are very intriguing, especially because of the occassion of the water drawing ceremony on Simchat Torah (lit. "Torah Happiness"). That Yeshua should tie the Song of Songs with Simchat Torah is an interesting topic in itself. Today, Jews begin reading Genesis Chapter One on Simchat Torah, so there is a confluence of intriguing mystical themes around that day.
Koilias,
Would you share some of your understanding about Yohannan's gospel? I've been studying it myself and like a friend of mine said, "It says so much, and yet so much is hidden."

[Shimshon]

I agree, a discussion on the topic of Yochanan's ketuvim would be very interesting and I would appreciate hearing Eric's understanding on it as well. :)

Maybe Eric will start another thread on it? :thumbsup: :yum:

b,shalom
shimshon

[koilias]

I agree, a discussion on the topic of Yochanan's ketuvim would be very interesting and I would appreciate hearing Eric's understanding on it as well. :)

Maybe Eric will start another thread on it? :thumbsup: :yum:

b,shalom
shimshon
Thanks for the interest!:)

Hmm...I have one week to go until my thesis is due so I've next to no time right now...But maybe in a week. Any part of Yohannan in particular?

[chunkofcoal]

How about the connections with the Song of Songs?
Or any place you'd like to start would be fine. :)

[koilias]

How about the connections with the Song of Songs?
Or any place you'd like to start would be fine. :)
Sounds good!

Yohannan was meant to be read in the week leading right up to the Pesach.

During which the Song of Songs is read as a "Megillah" in the ancient Synagogue (still to this day).

It will be a pleasure to delve into this with you guys! There is actually a theory that Yohannan was meant to be read in sections, alternating with the Megillah reading!

...We will get to the bottom of this wonderful gospel!

I will post a thread sometime after the 10th..(When I'm done, yay!!!)

[Henaynei]

sounds like a kewl idea :)

[chunkofcoal]

Looking forward to it!

[chunkofcoal]

Sounds good!

Yohannan was meant to be read in the week leading right up to the Pesach.

During which the Song of Songs is read as a "Megillah" in the ancient Synagogue (still to this day).

It will be a pleasure to delve into this with you guys! There is actually a theory that Yohannan was meant to be read in sections, alternating with the Megillah reading!

...We will get to the bottom of this wonderful gospel!

I will post a thread sometime after the 10th..(When I'm done, yay!!!)I'm waiting patiently...:)

[visionary]

I'm waiting patiently...:)Ok... maybe not so patiently... :clap: :thumbsup:

[talmidim]

Ok... maybe not so patiently... :clap: :thumbsup:NO pressure... :D

[koilias]

NO pressure... :D...I haven't forgotten guys! I need to check out first some Rabbinic commentary on Shir haShirim (Song of Songs). I may have to tromp over to the libraries of the ivy-infested, red-brick school house of pompous academics down the road.

[visionary]

Oh...poor baby....Now bundle up warm, here are your mittens,...***looks around*** now where did you touque go???..okay here is your scarf... now buttom up to is cold out side.

[By Grace]

Oooo, I love libraries--can I come?

[koilias]

Oh...poor baby....Now bundle up warm, here are your mittens,...***looks around*** now where did you touque go???..okay here is your scarf... now buttom up to is cold out side.

lol....he, he...I don't mind the cold...

I mind the stuffy decor, pretentious students and prissy librarians of the campus down the street.:D

[koilias]

Oooo, I love libraries--can I come?Well...if you live near Cambridge, MA, this may be doable. Although, this being Harvard, they won't let you in without a special ID first (which, I myself will have enough trouble getting...bearing in mind the mindless beauracratic process involved at the HU ID office).

[talmidim]

Hey koilias,
I just thought I would compliment you on your lovely new fontface. And your new "tan" is very becoming too! It come across as warm and reassuring.

[koilias]

Hey koilias,
I just thought I would compliment you on your lovely new fontface. And your new "tan" is very becoming too! It come across as warm and reassuring.
Thanks!:blush:

...I just thought I'd do something with my new blessings (thanks Ahavah!).

Sienna to symbolize the tanned, warm people of the Mediterranean, the best place on earth, the birthing shores of our faith, the seat of our culture.

[koilias]

Plus...It goes great with my new "wheat" background...It's amazing the options CF gives you! I didn't know all this stuff existed until I started fishing around the custom settings!

[talmidim]

Plus...It goes great with my new "wheat" background...It's amazing the options CF gives you! I didn't know all this stuff existed until I started fishing around the custom settings!I cannot see the "wheat" as a background color. I am using IE 6. Hmmm...

[By Grace]

Eric, I noticed your new font type and color, too--classy! The custom stuff is fun to play around with.

I cannot see the "wheat" as a background color. I am using IE 6. Hmmm...
I think you have to set the background color yourself, in your own settings. I see a blue background, but koilias could have a wheat background, and someone else could have a completely different color background.