How important is obedience?

[By Grace]

I was discussing this with some family this weekend, and I think this is essentially where our disagreement lies. How important is obedience? What role does obedience play in our relationship with G-d?

We agreed that obedience to the mitzvot is not necessary for salvation--that we're saved by grace. We agreed that obedience is important. But how important?

Must one obey in order to be blessed?
Will disobedience necessarily result in curses?
When we obey, is G-d obligated to bless us?
Can we please G-d even if we're not trying to obey?
Can we ever please G-d, even if we're trying to obey, since perfect obedience is impossible?
Are we only supposed to obey when it's convenient?
Are we supposed to study the Law, so that we're more aware of what mitzvot there are, and how that might apply in our lives?
Can we expect supernatural intervention and protection in our lives, even if we're not trying to follow the mitzvot?
I know that's a lot of questions, and I'm sure I can come up with more, but this is a start. We never came to a conclusion, except to agree to disagree. But we're getting together again in two weeks, and I'm sure the topic will come up again. I pointed out plenty of Scripture that shows that obedience is important, but how important is obedience to the OT mitzvot? And why?

TIA,

[visionary]

There are commandments that only apply in Israel, commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).

Second question...do we agree with the dividing up of the laws as provided by this website?

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

[By Grace]

Second question...do we agree with the dividing up of the laws as provided by this website?

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
Are you asking if I agree, or if my family members would agree?

I assume you're referring to the question of whether these are the laws we're talking about, or if we're just talking about laws that were specifically mentioned in the NT, such as love your neighbor. In my discussion this past weekend, we were talking about the 613 mitzvot, or at least, those that would apply to us today in our individual situations. But then again, one person this weekend was saying she's walking in obedience when she obeys what G-d tells her directly to do, like in a specific situation. I mentioned that nothing G-d tells her to do today should conflict with Torah, but then again, there are times when even Torah mitzvot are in conflict with each other and one mitzvah must "trump" another.

[visionary]

In order to understand the mitzvot that you are asking about. The website provided it's definition of what is to be obeyed and what is not. If that is a standard by which we can discuss from then the details can be approached.

For example: CCI means that it only applies to Israel
The Poor and Unfortunate
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21) (CCN51).
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22) (negative) (CCI6).
To leave the unreaped corner of the field or orchard for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI1).
Not to gather gleanings (the ears that have fallen to the ground while reaping) (Lev. 19:9) (negative) (CCI7).
To leave the gleanings for the poor (Lev. 19:9) (affirmative) (CCI2).
Not to gather ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI8).
To leave ol'loth (the imperfect clusters) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10; Deut. 24:21) (affirmative) (CCI3).
Not to gather the peret (grapes) that have fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:10) (negative) (CCI9).
To leave peret (the single grapes) of the vineyard for the poor (Lev. 19:10) (affirmative) (CCI4).
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19) This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20) (negative) (CC10).
To leave the forgotten sheaves for the poor (Deut. 24:19-20) (affirmative) (CCI5).
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man and giving him what he needs (Deut. 15:7) (CCN62). See Tzedakah: Charity.
To give charity according to one's means (Deut. 15:11) (CCA38). See Tzedakah: Charity. Now if I owned fields of some kind of crop in this country, and I knew of someone that could use some of the harvesting of the food from the crop, just because I am not in Israel does not change the fact, that I feel that it would be good and kind to share with the poor.

[By Grace]

In order to understand the mitzvot that you are asking about. The website provided it's definition of what is to be obeyed and what is not. If that is a standard by which we can discuss from then the details can be approached.

For example: CCI means that it only applies to Israel

Ah, I understand now. I need to go back and look at the list more carefully. Most likely, I would agree on most of them. Whether my family would agree or not might be a different question. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that we all agree on the site's classification of mitzvot.

Thanks, vis.

[Shimshon]

If sin is the transgression of Torah mitzvot. The "disobedience" of Torah mitzvot. Then how important is not sinning? (Obedience of Torah mitzvot) And what do the Emissaries have to say about it?

Here are a few of the scriptures regarding turning from sins to G-d (being obedient to Torah mitzvot);

Mt 3:2, 3:8, 4:17, 11:20, Lk 24:47, Acts 20:20-21, 1 John 1:6, 2:1, 2:6, 3:3, 3:6, 3:8-9, 5:18 Romans 6, 8:13, Ephesians 4:17, John 14:15, 1 cor 3:17,

1 Peter 1
15 On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life;



1 Peter 1
16 since the Tanakh says, "You are to be holy because I am holy."

1 Thessalonians 4
3 What God wants is that you be holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality,



1 Thessalonians 4
7 For God did not call us to live an unclean life but a holy one. 8 Therefore, whoever rejects this teaching is rejecting not a man but God, indeed, the One who gives you the Ruach HaKodesh, which is his.



1 Thessalonians 5
23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

1 John 3:9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him.That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father.


1 John 5
18 We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning; on the contrary, the Son born of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him.

Acts 20
20 You know that I held back nothing that could be helpful to you, and that I taught you both in public and from house to house, 21 declaring with utmost seriousness the same message to Jews and Greeks alike: turn from sin to God; and put your trust in our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.

If you are seeking a more rabbinic definition or aproach of how many of the 613 should the Goyim (christians) or Messianic (apostate *according to rabbinicalism*) Jews follow and/or be obedient to, I will leave that to those here who are more learned in these things.

Gal 2:18Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.

i.e. legalistic observance to Torah mitzvot places one in bondage to sin, the transgression of Torah mitzvot. To follow out of legalism is a sin. It's not the intent of Torah mitzvot. The intent is to be followed out of faith, love, hope. In such things there is no Torah mitzvah against them.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 humility, self control. Nothing in the Torah stands against such things. 24 Moreover, those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua have put their old nature to death on the stake, along with its passions and desires. 25 Since it is through the Spirit that we have Life, let it also be through the Spirit that we order our lives day by day.


b'shalom
Shimshon

[By Grace]

Ok, I'm already getting different poll results than I thought I'd get. Do you think that people who are saved but don't pursue a Torah-observant lifestyle, cannot grow in their rel'ship with G-d? Or are they growing in some areas while remaining stagnant in others? Can someone "lose" their salvation (i.e., lose their rel'ship with G-d) by not placing an emphasis on Torah-observance?

[visionary]

Ok, I'm already getting different poll results than I thought I'd get. Do you think that people who are saved but don't pursue a Torah-observant lifestyle, cannot grow in their rel'ship with G-d? Or are they growing in some areas while remaining stagnant in others? Can someone "lose" their salvation (i.e., lose their rel'ship with G-d) by not placing an emphasis on Torah-observance?they may not even realise just how much torah observant they are in their lifestyle and spiritual attitude. If on the other hand they reject those things that the Lord has pointed out for their spiritual growth saying it is in OT and does not apply,...then they will be held accountable.

[Shimshon]

Do you think that people who are saved but don't pursue a Torah-observant lifestyle, cannot grow in their rel'ship with G-d?o.k. this to me is an oxymoron. How can one be saved yet not pursue Torah observance? Only if one sees Torah observance as 'rabbinic' i.e. 10+613+mishna+talmud++++ -Yeshua, would I see this thinking.

Torah observance to me is not legalistic observance to some or all Torah mitzvot. It is letting the Ruach Elohim live in and through you. How then do you sin (transgress Torah)? If your new nature is alive and your old nature is dead?


Can someone "lose" their salvation (i.e., lose their rel'ship with G-d) by not placing an emphasis on Torah-observance?2 Peter 3:15 And think of our Lord's patience as deliverance, just as our dear brother Sha'ul also wrote you, following the wisdom God gave him. 16 Indeed, he speaks about these things in all his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the uninstructed and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 But you, dear friends, since you know this in advance, guard yourselves; so that you will not be led away by the errors of the wicked and fall from your own secure position. 18 And keep growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah. To him be the glory, both now and forever! Amen.

seems Kefa thought one could be "led away" by false teaching making it possible to "fall from your own secure position".

And Sha'ul as well; 1 co 10:12Therefore, let anyone who thinks he is standing up be careful not to fall!

1 Tim 3:6 He must not be a new believer, because he might become puffed up with pride and thus fall under the same judgment as did the Adversary.

b,shalom
shimshon

[By Grace]

o.k. this to me is an oxymoron. How can one be saved yet not pursue Torah observance? Only if one sees Torah observance as 'rabbinic' i.e. 10+613+mishna+talmud++++ -Yeshua, would I see this thinking.

Torah observance to me is not legalistic observance to some or all Torah mitzvot. It is letting the Ruach Elohim live in and through you. How then do you sin (transgress Torah)? If your new nature is alive and your old nature is dead?


So do you think someone can be pursuing Torah observance without realizing that's what they're doing? Perhaps the Spirit is working in them to cause observance in some areas, but not in areas that would obviously be Torah to most Christians (e.g., biblical holidays, diet)? Can someone be striving for Torah observance, and yet consistently eat bacon and sausage for breakfast, or have pepperoni on their pizza, for example?

[Shimshon]

So do you think someone can be pursuing Torah observance without realizing that's what they're doing? Perhaps the Spirit is working in them to cause observance in some areas, but not in areas that would obviously be Torah to most Christians (e.g., biblical holidays, diet)?
Yes, my mother acts very loving and giving alot of times. She says "I know G-d". But proceeds to live like a goy. She thinks her goodness will be seen as righteousness. She does things acording to Torah (i.e. chesed, lovingkindness) yet is ignorant to the Living Torah itself (i.e. Yeshua). Is she saved? She pursues goodness (Torah observance) without realizing she is pursuing Torah. Is the Spirit working in areas of her life only to leave her damned and lost without the faith in HaMoshiach Yeshua? She who rejects Torah yet does naturally what Torah defines (in some cases) is a Living Torah? Or is it, We who given no Torah do naturally what Torah defines are Torah? The latter shows no place for (in some cases). If a goy does naturally what Torah defines though they were not given it. They are Torah. And much to the jealousy of the Jew, and to the glory of G-d. But, he who was not given Torah who does partially what Torah defines is NOT living Torah. But only living out the heresy and apostacy of generations of lost souls. The partial application of Torah to ones life.

Do you think I want to think or confess my mother is lost, damned? How could I? But, if she does not follow Torah as it was intended, do I think that G-d would go against what he defined in Torah and though being sinful declare her "legalistic observance" to Torah mitzvot as righteousness? Without faith it is impossible to please G-d. Not faith that says "though I am sinful I will be counted as righteous". But the faith that says, "though I will die, yet I will live forever. The faith that says, "though it seems impossible it is not if you said it". The faith that Yeshua will keep me washed clean and pure, spotless and blameless till he comes to gather us. Faith that he will provide, sustain, conquer, endure, and overcome in this fleshly mortal body, and in the end making it an eternal Temple to G-d himself. This is my faith. Not that he justifies my sins, but that he sanctifies my whole being. One is a lie, the other the Truth. One endures, the other perishes.


Can someone be striving for Torah observance, and yet consistently eat bacon and sausage for breakfast, or have pepperoni on their pizza, for example?

Yes, yet in vain. Sounds like the overweight couch potatoe 'striving' to be fit by doing 12 ounce curls and smoking a pack a day. Will it happen?

[Bon]

I was discussing this with some family this weekend, and I think this is essentially where our disagreement lies. How important is obedience? What role does obedience play in our relationship with G-d?

We agreed that obedience to the mitzvot is not necessary for salvation--that we're saved by grace. We agreed that obedience is important. But how important?

Must one obey in order to be blessed?
Will disobedience necessarily result in curses?
When we obey, is G-d obligated to bless us?
Can we please G-d even if we're not trying to obey?
Can we ever please G-d, even if we're trying to obey, since perfect obedience is impossible?
Are we only supposed to obey when it's convenient?
Are we supposed to study the Law, so that we're more aware of what mitzvot there are, and how that might apply in our lives?
Can we expect supernatural intervention and protection in our lives, even if we're not trying to follow the mitzvot?
I know that's a lot of questions, and I'm sure I can come up with more, but this is a start. We never came to a conclusion, except to agree to disagree. But we're getting together again in two weeks, and I'm sure the topic will come up again. I pointed out plenty of Scripture that shows that obedience is important, but how important is obedience to the OT mitzvot? And why?

TIA,

I had a night away with a girlfriend on the weekend.....(night off from the children and hubbies for us both :D ) and we had this very conversation.

She is a christian, and cant understand why I desire to keep the laws. Since we had no kids around I was given the opportunity to explain it to her in detail....She asked me specifically, "do you think that you HAVE to keep Passover and the other Holy days?"

I said I do not think that I HAVE to keep the Laws as a means of salvation, but that I DESIRE to keep His Law which Yahweh requires for our obedience toward Him. Otherwise was are lawless, (without Law).

The thing is, the Laws were never done away with, and it is only through the incorrect interpretation of men over time, that many discard Torah and others question why we keep them.

Romans 7:
12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

1 John 3:
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Matthew 5:
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

All scripture that SEEMS to tell us that the Law no longer applys to us is a grave misconception of Yahweh's word, and if we would only take on the mindset that what it is really trying to teach us is that there is now only one way to the Father, and that is through our faith in Yahshua, nothing else is different.

Shalom from Bon

[By Grace]

Without faith it is impossible to please G-d. ... The faith that Yeshua will keep me washed clean and pure, spotless and blameless till he comes to gather us.
I agree one must have faith. You can obey every law as much as is physically possible, but without faith, hope, and love, it doesn't count a hill of beans. The heart intent is critical.

But can the heart intent be present without the actions? Say a man hears of Jesus (without the whole Jewish context, thus, I'll use "Jesus" rather than "Y'shua"). He "gives his heart to G-d", is baptized, and goes to church. He's basically a nice guy, honest in business dealings, faithful to his wife, etc. But he doesn't keep the Sabbath holy, doesn't celebrate the biblical holidays, puts up a Christmas tree in Dec, and eats bacon for breakfast and ribs on Friday night for dinner. He's got some of Torah--honesty in business, faithfulness in marriage. But he's missing a lot--diet, holidays, etc. Of course, he's heard of the 10 Commandments, but doesn't believe the rest applies to him, and conveniently ignores the 4th commandment. And this isn't really just a made-up person--there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people like this. Do you think they're not growing at all in their relationship with G-d? Do you think they "lose" their salvation b/c they aren't growing in Torah observance after being saved, b/c they think Torah is no longer relevant? I'm not saying they're right, but are they saved?

None of us is perfect in our Torah observance (if someone out there is, we need to have a little chat! ;) ). We're all dependent upon G-d's mercy to forgive our Torah trespasses. Does G-d forgive all believers' trespasses, or just the trespasses of those who trespass less?

And can they grow in their rel'ship with G-d without recognizing the importance of Torah? I see lots of people around me who are growing in faith and love for G-d and understanding of spiritual things, but who think I'm nuts to give up all pig products or celebrate the biblical holidays instead of the church holidays. Is their growth and love superficial?

[Shimshon]

I agree one must have faith. You can obey every law as much as is physically possible, but without faith, hope, and love, it doesn't count a hill of beans. The heart intent is critical.
Faith in what? Hope in what? Love in who?

If I say I have faith yet show it not by my actions, is my faith of any use? If I have faith in the wrong thing, hope in the wrong thing, love for the wrong reasons. Will this faith save me? If my faith states "I believe though sinful I will be added to the righteous". Will this faith accomplish it's goal? When G-d and all Torah says opposite.

But can the heart intent be present without the actions?
These statements from Yochanan the Immerser always strikes me to the core. He was preaching in Yeshua's name repentance leading to forgiveness of sins.(luke 24:47) His message was "Turn from your sins to G-d, for the kingdom of Heaven is near!!" (mt 3:2) And when some P'rushim came to recieve his message his response to them was "if you hav really turned from your sins to G-d, produce fruit that will prove it!" (mt 3:8)

Say a man hears of Jesus (without the whole Jewish context, thus, I'll use "Jesus" rather than "Y'shua"). He "gives his heart to G-d", is baptized, and goes to church. He's basically a nice guy, honest in business dealings, faithful to his wife, etc. But he doesn't keep the Sabbath holy, doesn't celebrate the biblical holidays, puts up a Christmas tree in Dec, and eats bacon for breakfast and ribs on Friday night for dinner. He's got some of Torah--honesty in business, faithfulness in marriage. But he's missing a lot--diet, holidays, etc. Of course, he's heard of the 10 Commandments, but doesn't believe the rest applies to him, and conveniently ignores the 4th commandment. And this isn't really just a made-up person--there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people like this. Do you think they're not growing at all in their relationship with G-d? Do you think they "lose" their salvation b/c they aren't growing in Torah observance after being saved, b/c they think Torah is no longer relevant? I'm not saying they're right, but are they saved??I'd rather let scripture answer that...

1 John 3
4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him. 7 Children, don't let anyone deceive you - it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous. 8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary. 9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him.That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father. 10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God's children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God. Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 What God wants is that you be holy,

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.



None of us is perfect in our Torah observance (if someone out there is, we need to have a little chat! ;) ). We're all dependent upon G-d's mercy to forgive our Torah trespasses. Does G-d forgive all believers' trespasses, or just the trespasses of those who trespass less?All who trespass have a mediator to reconcile thier sin. And this mediator "takes the sin away" washing us clean and making us acceptable again. All one needs to do is repent "T'shuva" T'shuva is the grace given...not "justification" of sins...but the ability to "REPENT" of them.

1 John 2
1 My children, I am writing you these thingsso that you won't sin. But if anyone does sin, we have Yeshua the Messiah, the Tzaddik, who pleads our cause with the Father. 2 Also, he is the kapparah for our sins - and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. 3 The way we can be sure we know him is if we are obeying his commands. 4 Anyone who says, "I know him," but isn't obeying his commands is a liar - the truth is not in him. 5 But if someone keeps doing what he says, then truly love for God has been brought to its goal in him. This is how we are sure that we are united with him. 6 A person who claims to be continuing in union with him ought to conduct his life the way he did.



And can they grow in their rel'ship with G-d without recognizing the importance of Torah? I see lots of people around me who are growing in faith and love for G-d and understanding of spiritual things, but who think I'm nuts to give up all pig products or celebrate the biblical holidays instead of the church holidays. Is their growth and love superficial?are they truely growing in faith? or are they being called "to" have faith? I see a huge difference between the called (everyone, I would that all would be saved ....) and the chosen, those who do not reject the faith given to them by G-d, who live thier lives by faith, in what Yeshua did. Took away the sins of the world. Now if only the called would make thier calling secure and sure. Placing faith in their chosen pure and spotless state. Maybe then the world will see G-d glorified in his people.:clap:

[Bon]

I agree one must have faith. You can obey every law as much as is physically possible, but without faith, hope, and love, it doesn't count a hill of beans. The heart intent is critical.

This was one of the reasons for Yahshua's coming....because the Jews kept the Law without the faith....which was all an outward expression of piety. They were devoid of their heartfelt belief....the emotional inward faith.
Yahshua came to remind them of this most important aspect of their spirituality.....and now the Gentiles have gone overboard in the opposite direction and disregarded the Laws, believing that faith is all that is needed to live a life according to Yahweh's will.

But can the heart intent be present without the actions? Say a man hears of Jesus (without the whole Jewish context, thus, I'll use "Jesus" rather than "Y'shua"). He "gives his heart to G-d", is baptized, and goes to church. He's basically a nice guy, honest in business dealings, faithful to his wife, etc. But he doesn't keep the Sabbath holy, doesn't celebrate the biblical holidays, puts up a Christmas tree in Dec, and eats bacon for breakfast and ribs on Friday night for dinner. He's got some of Torah--honesty in business, faithfulness in marriage. But he's missing a lot--diet, holidays, etc. Of course, he's heard of the 10 Commandments, but doesn't believe the rest applies to him, and conveniently ignores the 4th commandment. And this isn't really just a made-up person--there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people like this. Do you think they're not growing at all in their relationship with G-d? Do you think they "lose" their salvation b/c they aren't growing in Torah observance after being saved, b/c they think Torah is no longer relevant? I'm not saying they're right, but are they saved?

Now imagine this person was you......and today you are standing before Yahshua to give account of your life.
He might ask you this....."You lived a life of faith in me....but there you stopped....why didnt you search for yourself to know the truth for yourself, instead of just being content to believe what the men in your church taught you?"

What might you say in return? "I didnt want to" or "I thought that was all I had to do" or "That is all I was told I had to do" or "I did the best that I could" or "I couldn't be bothered to find out for myself" .....what WILL you say to Him?

None of us is perfect in our Torah observance (if someone out there is, we need to have a little chat! ;) ). We're all dependent upon G-d's mercy to forgive our Torah trespasses. Does G-d forgive all believers' trespasses, or just the trespasses of those who trespass less?

And can they grow in their rel'ship with G-d without recognizing the importance of Torah? I see lots of people around me who are growing in faith and love for G-d and understanding of spiritual things, but who think I'm nuts to give up all pig products or celebrate the biblical holidays instead of the church holidays. Is their growth and love superficial?

Remember......Free will!....to choose to learn and know or to choose not to learn and know.

We will ALL have to give account of our lives before Yahshua, but I do not believe that someone who does not keep Torah, but is otherwise a faithful believer is destined for the lake of fire. But their place in the Kingdom may not be the same as someone who if faithful AND obeys Yahweh according to His will.

Shalom from Bon

[koilias]

So do you think someone can be pursuing Torah observance without realizing that's what they're doing? Perhaps the Spirit is working in them to cause observance in some areas, but not in areas that would obviously be Torah to most Christians (e.g., biblical holidays, diet)? Can someone be striving for Torah observance, and yet consistently eat bacon and sausage for breakfast, or have pepperoni on their pizza, for example?
Yes to the first question.

On the last point, I'm just going to refer you to an expert in first century Christianity and Judaism, R. Stephen Notley. Note the RABBINIC opinion, my zealous gentile friends!

Can Gentiles Be Saved? (http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/Default.aspx?tabid=27&ArticleID=1788)

Anyone who teaches that Gentiles have no hope of salvation, has reverted to the sad doctrines of the Sectarians...But Gentiles need not convert in the opinion of Paul, Yeshua and the school of Hillel. They get to decide how far they will go in Torah observance solely to the advantage of their heavenly bonus points!:D The ethical laws of Yeshua are however required! The ethics are compulsory IMHO. If you did not treat your neighbors well and fulfilled the law solely to look good, you're in trouble at the last judgment no matter what way you see it. Remember that even the thief on the cross demonstrated humility and lovingkindness (to his saving credit).

[visionary]

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and then all these things will be added unto you...... We know that the Lord talked about the path, the Way, the narrow way, and the journey, if the prodical son half way home stops heading in the homeward direction, has he reached safety, in the arms of His Father? Just because they are heading the right direction, does not make it. If the Father has wrapped His arms around him while He is yet afar off, who are we to say he is not safe?

[By Grace]

Faith in what? Hope in what? Love in who?

If I say I have faith yet show it not by my actions, is my faith of any use? If I have faith in the wrong thing, hope in the wrong thing, love for the wrong reasons. Will this faith save me? If my faith states "I believe though sinful I will be added to the righteous".
They may not understand G-d completely accurately, but then, neither do I. If we all have faith in G-d's saving grace, isn't that sufficient for us all? Do I have to accurately understand who G-d is and what He wants of me, and then do all He wants of me, in order to continue to "earn" His mercy?


1 John 3
4 Everyone who keeps sinning is violating Torah - indeed, sin is violation of Torah. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. 6So no one who remains united with him continues sinning; everyone who does continue sinning has neither seen him nor known him. 7 Children, don't let anyone deceive you - it is the person that keeps on doing what is right who is righteous, just as God is righteous. 8 The person who keeps on sinning is from the Adversary, because from the very beginning the Adversary has kept on sinning. It was for this very reason that the Son of God appeared, to destroy these doings of the Adversary. 9 No one who has God as his Father keeps on sinning, because the seed planted by God remains in him.That is, he cannot continue sinning, because he has God as his Father. 10 Here is how one can distinguish clearly between God's children and those of the Adversary: everyone who does not continue doing what is right is not from God. Likewise, anyone who fails to keep loving his brother is not from God.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 What God wants is that you be holy,

1 Thessalonians 5
23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy - may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

Maybe I'm missing something, b/c I know I continue to do things that are wrong, even when I don't want to. Are you saying that once I'm actually united with Him (is that the same as "saved"), then I will no longer do anything against Torah? Instant transformation? I will always keep the Sabbath holy, will never eat unclean food, will always love my neighbor, will never be dishonest in any way or envy something someone else has or hold a grudge against my brother or do anything that could possibly be perceived as worshipping something other than G-d? Of course I want that! And I'm striving for that. But I know I'm not there yet! Does this mean I'm not "saved"?


All who trespass have a mediator to reconcile thier sin. And this mediator "takes the sin away" washing us clean and making us acceptable again. All one needs to do is repent "T'shuva" T'shuva is the grace given...not "justification" of sins...but the ability to "REPENT" of them.
Does one have to repent of every individual sin in order to be cleansed? What if I forget one?

Took away the sins of the world. Now if only the called would make thier calling secure and sure. Placing faith in their chosen pure and spotless state. Maybe then the world will see G-d glorified in his people.:clap:
I think this is exactly what they do have faith in--that Y'shua took away their sins. Even if they don't put a whole lot of effort into learning about every law and applying that as best as possible in their lives, they know they're still spotless. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't grow in obedience. I think the family members I was discussing this with also think obedience is important. But is it the means by which we "earn" our continued salvation?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Does everyone here believe that unless a person is Torah observant, that s/he has forfeited the salvation G-d offers through Y'shua's death and resurrection? :confused:

We will ALL have to give account of our lives before Yahshua, but I do not believe that someone who does not keep Torah, but is otherwise a faithful believer is destined for the lake of fire. But their place in the Kingdom may not be the same as someone who if faithful AND obeys Yahweh according to His will.
I think this is more along the lines of what I was expecting. Thanks, Bon.

[Shimshon]

I guess one would have to define “G-d’s saving grace”. I see scripture defining it as such; I was born in sin, sinful from birth. This sin separated me from G-d. I did not have a personal relationship with him. His Spirit did not reside in my heart. But because of what G-d did through Yeshua HaMoshiach. This sin and seperation from G-d is now taken away. We are washed clean and made pure by the Spirit we received from G-d. This Spirit is “the Spirit of Truth” and teaches us all things according to the will of G-d. This Spirit in us keeps us safe from the Evil Ones. This Spirit is our seal till the end. It is what makes us children of G-d. Born of G-d. “Saved”. It’s what makes our “new” nature. When we live by the Spirit we have live…..eternal. When we live by our old nature we have death. We die. In our sins. Because we did not have faith in the Word that said repentance leads to salvation. (Luke 24:47) Or the Word that said “Turn from your sins to G-d”.



Earn? Again, the grace G-d gives is not freedom to sin yet be found righteous. It’s the ability to do what was once impossible. Be holy, because He is Holy. He is living in those who “receive” his Spirit. Not partially, not sometimes. But all the time. Or do you like your husband to be “partially” holy to your marriage vows? How is it “earning” when we do what we have been created for? “for good works prepared beforehand”. Or do you think G-d created mankind so he could have a partially sin filled family? How is it earning when it is Yeshua living our lives. I am dead. My old nature has died on the stake with Yeshua’s body. The one living in me now is Yeshua. The works I do were created before hand by G-d so that Yeshua could accomplish them in and through me. How AWESOME is this Grace?!!! It’s not me but Him! Living in me. Shining “His” light out from my body. Using my mouth to speak his words. So again I ask, how do “I” earn anything? When it’s not my works but his? I am merely doing what I was born to. Glorify G-d



This is the biggest lie I’ve seen out there. That Jesus took away “the punishment” for my sin. (Jesus justifies my sin) Now though I sin, I will not be judged. And THIS is my faith!! My Saving Grace. I though sinful will still be added to the righteous.



Yeshua does not make sins invisible but still there. He takes them away. He makes us “free from sin”. No longer enslaved to it. Free in Yeshua. To live as he willed. Doing works of the Father that he created beforehand.



24 By God's grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua. 25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. (not in respect to “overlooking” sins) This vindicated God's righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua's faithfulness.



He makes me righteous, leading me to do his will. Not “my” righteousness”. Not “my” will. Not “my” earnings. Not “my” glory. His!





I doubt highly that someone possesses faith that will save them when their faith is in the doing of sins yet not being found guilty. Yeshua said he would take the sins away, not overlook them. As far as “always” remaining sinless. Scripture states quite plainly that people can sin and stumble, but it should not lead to a fall or death. When we sin we are to repent of all sins. Immediately! Confess and repent. So we may be washed clean. Yes, Yeshua washes us over and over, keeping us clean. And if we require to many bathes I believe Shaul refered to that as “grieving the Holy Spirit”. He does not however die over and over. This was done once and for all. So we can have this chance of grace offered by G-d. To repent and receive forgivness. To turn from my sins to G-d.



What if you forgot? Oy vey. Can you forget the sacrifice Yeshua made? Can you forget why Yeshua did what he did for you? How then can you forget a sin you commit against this everloving evermerciful G-d who died and suffered so you could walk pure and blameless in his presence? How can you? He knows every sin you commit. He will forgive them all, taking them away to the bottom of the sea. Yet you can forget that you are walking in sin against G-d almighty? How is this possible? Unless one walks so far into the dark they lose all sight of the light?



If a Holy Spirit is living through you and in you. How do you sin? Freewill? Not so free at all to me. If we take this “freedom” to express “our” will. Have we not locked up G-d’s will binding it because of our “free”dom? In short, our will can only lead to death. Since our “selves” are sinful to the core and do not comprehend G-dly things at all. But when you become a slave to G-d, your now free from your own will, doing only what He wills. And if you are doing only what he wills, how can “your” will be free? Your will is crucified with Moshiach. Yes you have a choice. Live or die. Life or death. You chose. Obey and live, disobey and die. No free rides. Chose to let his Spirit live in you or chose to not and suffer the consequences.



If I say I have “never” sinned, I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me. If I admit my sin, then he will forgive them and purify me from all wrongdoing. If I claim to have not sinned before, I am calling him a liar and his Word is not in me. Neg-Pos-Neg.



Honestly, I can’t understand the blindness about this subject in the Christian realm. What a deception to believe you will be found righteous though sinful. How can others not see the message of turning from sin to G-d, the message of repentance leading to forgiveness. This Message is throughout scripture. It’s the meat of the Word. The context implied. Do word searches like “turn from sin” “free from sin” “holy” and notice how many verses you get and then study the context. How one gets another message is beyond me. IMHO it shows me just how much of man made doctrine they believe over the truth witnessed and testified to in the scriptures.



http://www.crosswalk.com/ (http://www.crosswalk.com/)



b,shalom

shimshon

[By Grace]

Thanks for your post, Shimshon, and thanks for your patience. I'm still relatively new to all this, and learning. I appreciate your contribution to this discussion, and your willingness to let me bounce ideas off you and give me honest feedback on what you think. I have several thoughts on your last post, but I need time to think about it a while...

[Sephania]

Todah Shimshon for posting (#19) the words of the Spirit.

[Sephania]

Not sure, I have read all the posts and it could have been posted but I still then would like to add:

Yeshua said something plain and simple, If you love me, keep (obey) my mitzvot (commandments).
When asked what the greatest commandment was He said "Love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart, all your soul all your mind".

For if your heart, soul and mind all are focused on him.......................:)


If you put these two together how can there be any question? For will those who truly don't love him, will they go to live with him in eternity?

[Sephania]

We agreed that obedience is important. But how important?

Must one obey in order to be blessed?
Will disobedience necessarily result in curses?
When we obey, is G-d obligated to bless us?
Can we please G-d even if we're not trying to obey?
Can we ever please G-d, even if we're trying to obey, since perfect obedience is impossible?
Are we only supposed to obey when it's convenient?
Are we supposed to study the Law, so that we're more aware of what mitzvot there are, and how that might apply in our lives?
Can we expect supernatural intervention and protection in our lives, even if we're not trying to follow the mitzvot?

How about 'what is the goal'? "How important is it to be blessed?" you asked, "to please G-d, to receive protection", but I noticed that the one most important question was not asked.

I believe that the L-RD will bless , even those not in full obedience, and also listen to their prayers, and 'intervene' even if asked, but will disobedience actually please him? I think not. Disobedience is rebellion and we already know the fate of those who rebel. As far as I can see in the WORD, rebellion is grouped into one group, not a 'little rebellious' and you still go to heaven but 'past this point', well, off to hell with you.;)


Jill you asked:


Must one obey in order to be blessed?

If we go back to the garden of G-d we see that obedience would have brought life and blessings, but disobedience regarding that one little tree, that brought a curse on the whole human race, and that curse is death.

So the question should be, if we want life, eternal life, if we truly love our creator, then we will be obedient and we will get life, for in our disobedience we are already dead.


Yeshua said in John 5 "Truly, TRULY ( this is the TRUTH) I say to you, He that hears my words and believes on Him who sent me , has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation;but is passed from death unto life. "


Many see this as all they have to do is "believe", (which is becoming a very secular word of late, anyone notice that?) but what exactly does that mean? Yeshua said we are to believe in the ONE who sent him! That is HaShem! And how do we show our belief? By following His commandments. Once again the L-RD gave the choice, as He did in the garden, this time he gave more instruction before they went into the promised land, For he said, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessings and cursing:therefore, choose life that you and your seed may live !"


Yes, Choose! How to choose? By obeying. And get what? LIFE! :bow: Baruch Hashem!

L'Chaim!:thumbsup:

[Bon]

The more I am reading this thread, the more I am thinking that those who disobey have no excuses...

Those who are faithful, and stop there, are just walking the wide and easy path....and this path is unacceptable to Yahweh.

Now, if like some here, you are walking this wide and easy path but are consciously looking to and working on moving off this busy "freeway" and onto the narrow bumpy and difficult path, then that would be working towards maturity in the spirit...and acceptable in Yahweh's sight.

But those who defiantly argue that by faith and faith only they will make their way into the Kindgom en masse.....I am not so sure?

It is so deeply gouged into my brain by christianity that we are only saved by faith....(period)

HOW DO THESE PEOPLE EXPLAIN AWAY, scriptures that support the Law? Are they simply ignored?

As I am writting, my mind is still all over the place.

Will Christians be given a chance to know the truth and repent (Im talking about the "good" ones deceived by christain doctrines), ....?......or do they simply have no excuses, because, at the end of the day, Yahweh gave us ALL free-will?????

I'm going around in circles and I'm getting pretty dizzy :sick:

Shalom from Bon

[visionary]

I'm going around in circles and I'm getting pretty dizzy :sick:

Shalom from Bonwe can rest in the Lord, knowing that ALL things will work to His Glory. ;)

[By Grace]

Bon, I think you're wrestling with the same dilemma I'm facing--what is the relationship between faith and action? Yes, you should show your faith by your actions, but is it possible to have faith without actions? Probably not, but then, what kind of actions are really necessary? If someone is trying to be a good person, even if in their head they think "Torah doesn't apply to me," aren't they basically doing the heart intent of Torah, even if they don't recognize it? Is that enough? Does one have to understand that all of the applicable Torah commands are crucial in order to show, by their actions, a heart of love?

I don't think Christians, in general, believe it's okay to murder or steal or lie or treat their neighbors unkindly. I know they believe it's important to give to the poor and establish a justice system and honor their parents (even if they don't always do those things perfectly, they realize they should try). So even if they don't mentally acknowledge that all of the relevant Torah commands apply, aren't they still trying to do what they think is the "right" thing, with a heart of love and submission to G-d's will?

I think I'm basically referring back to my earlier question: can one follow Torah to a degree without realizing that's what you're doing? Can that be the Spirit of G-d manifesting Himself in His children, even if they don't recognize that it's G-d's Law being written on their hearts? Even the most theologically "off" Christians that I know are basically good people who want to show G-d's love the best they know how. Is it critical/essential that they realize they should rest on the Sabbath instead of going to church on Sunday in order to have G-d working and living in them? If so, then what other understandings are essential? And where does it stop? What understandings must one have in order to have a relationship with G-d?

I think this is where I'm struggling. Do Messianics believe a believer must basically be a Messianic (by this I mean, trusting in Y'shua as Messiah and striving for Torah observance) in order to be in rel'ship with G-d? I don't think so. I think G-d works in us in a myriad of ways, and sometimes He opens our eyes to recognize that the goal is to be Torah-observant, and sometimes His kids miss that point. But that doesn't mean He's not accomplishing His will in that person's life. And that doesn't mean they're not trying to be obedient to what they do understand. I don't think G-d is dependent upon our understanding in order to save a person. That doesn't mean it's not important, but the question is, is it absolutely necessary?


The more I am reading this thread, the more I am thinking that those who disobey have no excuses...

Those who are faithful, and stop there, are just walking the wide and easy path....and this path is unacceptable to Yahweh.

Now, if like some here, you are walking this wide and easy path but are consciously looking to and working on moving off this busy "freeway" and onto the narrow bumpy and difficult path, then that would be working towards maturity in the spirit...and acceptable in Yahweh's sight.

But those who defiantly argue that by faith and faith only they will make their way into the Kindgom en masse.....I am not so sure?

It is so deeply gouged into my brain by christianity that we are only saved by faith....(period)

HOW DO THESE PEOPLE EXPLAIN AWAY, scriptures that support the Law? Are they simply ignored?

As I am writting, my mind is still all over the place.

Will Christians be given a chance to know the truth and repent (Im talking about the "good" ones deceived by christain doctrines), ....?......or do they simply have no excuses, because, at the end of the day, Yahweh gave us ALL free-will?????

I'm going around in circles and I'm getting pretty dizzy :sick:

Shalom from Bon
Sorry if my post is jumbled--the baby woke up half-way through, so I was a little distracted as I tried to finish my thoughts!

[debi b]

When you have answered this question to your satisfaction, what will you have accomplished?

[Shimshon]

Shalom Jill, I want to let you know I appreciate YOUR cander and honesty in discussing this topic. It usually throws people for a spin. Being opposite to what the modern church is professing as truth.

To say it at in it's most basic terms. Yes it is a "process". There are many people who are whole heartedly seeking the salvation that comes from Elohim HaAv. It's a matter of understanding, recognition and revelation. When one gets revealed the truth, recognizes it and understands it. THEN one is required to repent of such things and continue in maturity to the goal. Yet when one chooses to remain where they are and not adjust. This person chooses to reject the truth revealed. Though they recognized it as Truth from HaAv they do not act on it, believing instead the lies of those men that "SAY" they are speaking for Elohim HaAv but are not. Rav Sha'ul refered to this as walking over the shead blood of Moshiach. Making his sacrifice null and void for you. It also places you in the position of calling Avinu a liar. You by your lack of motivation to adjust to the truth you have been revealed by HaAv basicly are saying to him, "so what?" "maybe, maybe not." and in most cases "I don't believe that".

Yet, when a person recognizes the revelation given to them by Elohim HaAv, and repents of the sin now revealed to them. Understanding what the Ruach said to them they repent of the sin, becoming washed clean of it.

Many church goers who are still ignorant to the truth because of the false prophets in thier midst IMHO ARE saved. Because they seek Elohim HaAv to save them from sin and death. They have been revealed the 'basic' message and believe it. Salvation comes from Elohim alone. Yet, when they get revealed the truth, as I have witnessed it here. And say, "Meshugenna!!!" And remain following the lies instead of the truth. THEY have no excuss to HaAv on judgment day. There was a prophet among them. They were told....and rejected. Choosing to follow doctrines of men over the Word of Elohim.

Many young babes in Moshiach are in the world...and in the church. Are we going to let them die at the hands of the Adversary? Or are we going to speak the Word no matter who hates us or calls us mesugenna?

As my signiture says, I will not be quiet, I will not remain silent till her righteousness shines like the dawn, her salvation as a blazing torch. Amen.

b,ahava
Shimshon

[Sephania]

Jill, you asked :

If someone is trying to be a good person, even if in their head they think "Torah doesn't apply to me," aren't they basically doing the heart intent of Torah, even if they don't recognize it?
Now let me ask, what did Yshua say about people being "good"?

Matt 19 :16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

These are the things he considers "good" keeping the commandments.

Also Right before he tells us he did not come to nullify the law he tells us:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. )

We are not good, but we can have good works if we let him work through us.

Also I would like to ask, how can they be doing the "heart intent of Torah" if they have not sought to know Torah? For isn't Torah, Yeshua? Is he not the Word made flesh? You can not say you love him if you only know a little about him ( IE the "New Testement" ) You must start at the beginning. How does one show love for her groom? or husband to be, by learning what pleases him, and what his requirements are. He has given us that in His Torah.

It won't only be those crying "L-RD L-RD!" in that day that he will say he doesn't recognize them, but will they even recognize him?

[By Grace]

When you have answered this question to your satisfaction, what will you have accomplished?
Hmm, a penetrating question. This conversation is actually very different than what I was expecting. My original goal with this thread was to clarify in my head how obedience can be so important without being absolutely essential to salvation. Now I'm thinking maybe that was an incorrect understanding. But now, my understanding of obedience itself is changing. Maybe obedience isn't exactly never doing anything wrong (complete Torah observance of every applicable law), but rather a growth process (growing in understanding and observance). Movement in the right direction. Taking the right path when faced with a fork in the road. You may still wander off that path from time to time, sometimes more often than at others, but you gotta keep going generally in the right direction.

Today's church tries so hard to avoid legalism, that they've lost the desire to obey the law at all. But they misunderstand what legalism is. Legalism is trying to obey on your own effort, but you don't avoid legalism by not obeying at all. Rather, you should seek to obey through the power of the Spirit living in you. We tend to think that legalism is just placing too high a priority on obedience, but that's not it all. Legalism is taking pride in your own efforts to obey, rather than being humbled by the evidence that G-d is working in you. There's certainly nothing wrong with obeying G-d's commands--Y'shua affirmed this repeatedly. What's wrong on the one hand is to sin by not obeying, and on the other hand to take pride in your own efforts to be righteous. They're both wrong. We must obey by trusting in G-d to make us righteous.

Thanks, everyone, for your input. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Why do I keep exploring the same issues over and over, then as soon as I think I've got it figured out, I try to explain it to someone who doesn't yet understand, and I get all befuddled! I just read this verse today, and it seems to fit: "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin. But since you still say, 'We see,' your guilt remains." (Yoch 9:41)

[Sephania]

Yes, that's it in a nutshell Jill, remember what the L-rd revealed to me months ago? I have written it up a few times on this forum. He showed me one day the main difference in Christianity and True Messianic Judaism.

Christianity is about Justification
True MJ is about sanctification

:)

[Shimshon]

Jill, by G-d I do believe your getting it!! :thumbsup:

You said, "then as soon as I think I've got it figured out, I try to explain it to someone who doesn't yet understand, and I get all befuddled!"

Been there, done that. This happens because being so newly exposed to the truth it has not penetrated your very being yet. Meaning, you now understand and accept it but it has not become "second-nature" yet. It will still take time to be able to walk it out "naturally" without being sidelined by HaSatan.

Sorta like a child who given the instruction accepts it whole heartedly and attempts to exhibit what he has just been taught. But having no "working experience" in such things becomes seen as a confused fool because he could not articulate with experiencial understanding the concept he was just taught. The child can only "repeat" what he was taught. But has little to know understanding of how to "exhibit" what he was told.

In short they can parrot the words but it isn't "inside" thier hearts yet. Because they have yet to walk out the teaching they've been taught. And so being HaSatan has a lever to try and topple you with. Don't try to run before you can walk. You will trip and hurt yourself. ;) And if G-d gives you a two-edged sword, don't use it till he teaches you how. You could mame someone, or even yourself. :)

b, shalom
Shimshon

[debi b]

...but you don't avoid legalism by not obeying at all.

How very true :) I am pleased you did not misunderstand my question :hug:

[Bon]

Shalom Jill, I want to let you know I appreciate YOUR cander and honesty in discussing this topic. It usually throws people for a spin. Being opposite to what the modern church is professing as truth.

To say it at in it's most basic terms. Yes it is a "process". There are many people who are whole heartedly seeking the salvation that comes from Elohim HaAv. It's a matter of understanding, recognition and revelation. When one gets revealed the truth, recognizes it and understands it. THEN one is required to repent of such things and continue in maturity to the goal. Yet when one chooses to remain where they are and not adjust. This person chooses to reject the truth revealed. Though they recognized it as Truth from HaAv they do not act on it, believing instead the lies of those men that "SAY" they are speaking for Elohim HaAv but are not. Rav Sha'ul refered to this as walking over the shead blood of Moshiach. Making his sacrifice null and void for you. It also places you in the position of calling Avinu a liar. You by your lack of motivation to adjust to the truth you have been revealed by HaAv basicly are saying to him, "so what?" "maybe, maybe not." and in most cases "I don't believe that". OK...here I go...

I have christian friends...a couple who are great believers in 'Jesus'. Now I only met them about 12 months ago and since then I have been trying to explain why I keep Torah (and working on it)...and they do not get it.....they are blindsided by their strong belief in 'keeping the law is legalism'.

They are great followers of an Aussie guy, a pastor, who gives seminars on "The law is Legalism" and everything they recite is from this pastors seminar booklet. (Which I have been given a copy).

I have written notes all over my copy, scripture references and explanations of his incorrect interpretations of,especially Pauls writtings and handed it back to them...but to no avail. All they see is "legalism, legalism, legalism"! Know what I mean.....the blinkers are on.

Anyhow, these people believe that the laws are still valid but it is not necessary to be obey them.

I believe that I have been used byYahweh to introduce this information to them and hopefully, by His grace, they will come to understand the truth.

But if.....Yahweh forbid, they were to die tomorrow, what would their fate be?

You see I believe they have so much conviction, more than your average christian.


Many church goers who are still ignorant to the truth because of the false prophets in thier midst IMHO ARE saved. Because they seek Elohim HaAv to save them from sin and death. They have been revealed the 'basic' message and believe it. Salvation comes from Elohim alone. Yet, when they get revealed the truth, as I have witnessed it here. And say, "Meshugenna!!!" And remain following the lies instead of the truth. THEY have no excuss to HaAv on judgment day. There was a prophet among them. They were told....and rejected. Choosing to follow doctrines of men over the Word of Elohim. Right!!!..OK so they are baffled by the pastors influence....(a false prophet).

Sorry for my ignorance....what does "Meshuganna" mean please? :blush:

They havehad the truth revealed to them now....and if they choose to ignore it, I shall carry the guilt around that it was I who put them in their predicament of "no excuses on Judgement Day". What a burden to carry...or do I just say...."Hey! dont blame me, it was your choice to ignore the truth."

Many young babes in Moshiach are in the world...and in the church. Are we going to let them die at the hands of the Adversary? Or are we going to speak the Word no matter who hates us or calls us mesugenna?

b,ahava
ShimshonThey will be more likely to die at the hands of the adversary now that I have revealled the truth to them....and if they do not come out of the church and to this truth.

Shalom from Bon

[Sephania]

"Meshuganna" - meaning he's crazy for what he just said.
Anyhow, these people believe that the laws are still valid but it is not necessary to be obey them.
If I may Bon, have you asked them which law(s) they are allowed to not obey?

One thing, you are not responsible for anyones salvation but your own. That you work out with fear and trembling, but you witness to others and let the Ruach do the rest.

:)

[Bon]

"Meshuganna" - meaning he's crazy for what he just said.
If I may Bon, have you asked them which law(s) they are allowed to not obey?

Thank you Zayit.....:wave:

Yes I have asked them....and they say none....not one law do they have to obey. Of course they believe that the laws are now in their heart.....like do not murder, steal, commit adultery...you know the usual "good person" stuff.

They believe the sabbath is still the sabbath and they rest or rather have a family day...no work, but very far removed from the true meaning of what Shabbat means to most in MJ. They believe it is the Lord's Day (Sunday that is the all important day of the week now.) They go to church on Sunday, but do not hesitate to work as they believe that they needn't refrain from such things on this day....eg, he does set-up and sound for the church band at the Sunday service.

As for feasts...they believe they were fulfilled in "Christ" and no longer necessary.

And kosher....well since they met me they have given up pig products, which they say they did because they felt guilty about it when they found out that I did not eat it. :scratch: She said that she never really liked the taste of roast pork and was quite happy to eliminate it from their diet....but they eat everything else.....but as I have heard many say to me...."we don't eat prawns/calamari/crayfish very often though" :eek:

Theirs is the typical "thinking christians" response to 'why we dont keep the law'.

One thing, you are not responsible for anyones salvation but your own. That you work out with fear and trembling, but you witness to others and let the Ruach do the rest.

:)

:sigh: Yeah! I do realise this, but they have become dear friends and I feel responsible..............Yahweh willing, He will lift the veil from their eyes in His good time.

Shalom from Bon

[chunkofcoal]

What I keep thinking about is Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven.

God is supposed to write His Laws on our heart, but what if someone is feeling compelled by the Spirit to do something - follow a commandment, a statute, but because of being taught that they don't have to follow the Law they start thinking, "It seems like something I should be doing but it's Jewish?"
But then again, Yeshua did say, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me and I give unto them eternal llfe; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." (John 11:27-30)
Let's encourage those who are called out of the crowd to walk a different path, and let's remember that the commandment to not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind has a spiritual meaning, too.
:groupray:

[visionary]

Your presence and love will have them come to you for small spiritual bits when they are hungry. You know they have been fed milk for so long it will be hard to wean them to the meat which comes due in its season. Prayer availeth much, and being a living testimony will bring more convictions, than the "christian" approach of hitting then over the head with scriptural texts after texts when they are unwilling to hear.

It is your life in Yeshua that will speak the loudest to their heart. Mustard seeds of truth may seem little to you, but they will grow with the convictions that come from the Holy Spirit. "If you can do this, they can too." will overcome every argument that it can not be done.

[By Grace]

Bon, I understand completely where you're coming from. I really just can't accept the idea that these Christians I know are not saved simply because they don't actively follow Torah and realize that's what they're doing. These are good people who love G-d and try to do His will according to their understanding. I can't say that I always recognize Truth, either, even when it smacks me in the face! If my skill of discernment isn't up to par with others', does that mean I no longer deserve to be saved? And the same question applies for everyone else I know of.

This legalism issue is a HUGE hurdle for most traditional Christians to get over--I've been working on it for months now and still don't have a firm grasp on it. But isn't that the role G-d's mercy plays? To make up for our shortcomings? It's not so much justifying sin, as it is making us righteous even when we're too dense to recognize Truth when it runs us down. It's not that these people are trying to go their own way and completely ignore G-d's will--they just don't understand what G-d's will is. It may seem obvious to most here to just open up Deuteronomy and start reading and doing, but Christians have been brainwashed for generations to believe that that is actually contrary G-d's will.

From what I can tell of the people in my family I've been discussing this with, their hearts are truly in the right place. They truly want to do G-d's will. They just can't wrap their minds around the idea that G-d's will is consistent with G-d's law. I know that seems obvious to us in this forum, but it's not so obvious to people who have been taught differently all their lives and whose eyes have not yet been opened to this revelation.

Can growth and obedience occur in other areas of a person's life besides what would obviously (in our society) be Torah? Does a person have to recognize good acts as "Torah" in order for those acts to be evidence of trusting in G-d's grace?

[Shimshon]

They havehad the truth revealed to them now....and if they choose to ignore it, I shall carry the guilt around that it was I who put them in their predicament of "no excuses on Judgement Day". What a burden to carry...or do I just say...."Hey! dont blame me, it was your choice to ignore the truth."You put them in no such predicament. In fact you have saved your own soul by doing the will of Elohim. Shining the light in thier dark hole. Their blood is now off your hands because you did what was expected of you. Yet, don't let hasatan use this compassion Elohim gave you for the lost and falling against you by making you feel guilty for their choices. Moshe was moved to anger because of the stiff-necked ways of his generation. And it was not a good outcome for him. (though I believe it was prophetic that the one whom the "law" came through was not allowed into the promised land, yet the one called Yehoshua lead them in. :holy: )

They will be more likely to die at the hands of the adversary now that I have revealled the truth to them....and if they do not come out of the church and to this truth.What I think you miss is that this is the very reason Elohim is patiently waiting, while we say...MARANATHA!!!! NOW NOW!!! He is saying......wait alittle longer my children for the rest to ripen. I wonder, when the last soul makes it's mind up about Yeshua, will the end them come? THERE ARE MORE SOULS!!! More mishpocha to be born!!! Will you not suffer a little longer for them to be raised to eternal life?

b,ahava
Shimshon

[Shimshon]

I was posting in another thread with this and I noticed it fit more in this thread so here is a little more about "obedience" that i've noticed.

Torah states quite plainly, as do the prophets and the talmidim of Yeshua. That a person is found righteous in Elohim's sight by FAITH and faith alone. That Elohim desires mercy instead of sacrifice. The "law" never saved anyone. It was ment to show our sinfulness and that we need Yeshua. The salvation that comes from Elohay. The prophets state that it's not the obedience to the law that counts but the reason you followed it in the first place.



an example;



Amos 5:21-27

21 "I hate, I utterly loathe your festivals; I take no pleasure in your solemn assemblies. 22 If you offer me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; nor will I consider the peace offerings of your stall-fed cattle. 23 Spare me the noise of your songs! I don't want to hear the strumming of your lutes! 24 Instead, I want to see a mighty flood of justice, a river of righteous living that will never run dry.

Wow, utterly hate? Loathe? Takes not pleasure? Why? He commanded them? BECAUSE it was not done out of faithfulness , but out of OBEDIENCE. He says he will NOT accept nor consider the sacrifices. Why? Seems from this that you can have festivals, solemn assemblies (shabbats?) offer burnt, grain and peace offerings.....and he will hate and utterly loathe them if you are not "Living righteously". So this then implies that merely doing these things is not what he requires (obedience). Not what Elohei sees as "righteous living". Instead he says he wants us to be endlessly righteous. Which then implies that this righteousness does NOT come from mere "obedience" to Torah commands.



25 Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings in the desert forty years, house of Isra'el? 26 No, but now you will bear Sikkut as your king and Kiyun, your images, the star of your god, which you made for yourselves; 27 as I exile you beyond Dammesek," says Adonai ELOHEI-Tzva'ot - that is his name.
Now notice, we all know from scripture that Yisrael offered sacrifices in the wilderness. Heck, it's the main reason Moshe gave to Pharoh as to why he should "let my people go", so they could worship Elohim and offer sacrifices to him. Yet, here in Amos it states that Elohim did NOT receive them. He implied it was because though they were offering them they were still inside thier hearts worshiping the gods of Egypt as well. They brought thier pagan worship along with worship to Elohim. And because of this he says he will exile them beyond Dammesek.

b,shalom
Shimshon